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On June 10 2013 22:51 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 22:48 Tobberoth wrote:On June 10 2013 22:45 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 22:43 gaymon wrote:On June 10 2013 22:18 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 21:44 cecek wrote:
I'm not a graphical artist or a designer, but I don't really see how you could revolutionize the UI. There's a minimap, which is essential for this kind of game, and where else would you stick that than one of the bottom corners? Then inventory slots and skills. Again, absolutely essential, need to be well visible. The bottom of the screen seems like the appropriate place for it. Then there's the hero portrait, which I can imagine you could do without, but I don't see why. It tells you quickly what unit you're controlling and it has an estetic function as well. I guess the only thing they could change would be the rest: the quick buy field, courier icons, glyph and unit stats. That might be possible to change, but I don't see any drastic change that would make. Well it wouldn't be revolutionary if it was obvious would it? The point is that not working in the restrictions of cloning a 10 year old UI would allow for anything, while at the moment, it doesn't. And there's a lot to achieve without 'revolutionizing'. The ulti active icon isn't revolutionary yet it makes people better players and makes the game easier to watch. There are a lot of things in this regard which could be done, better ways of showing health and mana, ways of conveying mana costs of multiple skills combined (like alt+click abilities and they add together in your mana bar), better ways of conveying valid targets, better ways of designing a mini-map especially for newer players (hell you could take the classic diablo map and just overlay it large in transparency on the left and it would drastically increase map awareness of new players).Then there's a lot to be said for simplifying and how it can help newer players. And there's a lot to be said for better spectator experiences. And there's a lot to be said for increasing the aesthetic appeal of the game by going away from looking into a window in the center. Ultimately, neither I as a designer or you as not would need to have a hundred great ideas off the top of our heads to decide if more can be done by not working under restrictions. And either way I care more about the spectator experience which I could think of a hundred ideas of the top of my head for how it could be improved if you removed the bar at the top and the bottom and allowed anything. Just look at gameheart. We could aswell remove denies, remove gold lost ond death, take out tps, and give everybody enough base manaregen to spam spells 24/7. We might also add cool new features where new heroes have to be bought first before you can play them or smth like that. Very insightful. Move along now. He is correct though, it's a dangerous path when you start to simplify things which dumb down gameplay. Being able to see your opponents exact mana is sweet if you're playing anti-mage and want to calculate how your ulti will do, but a good player can do that anyway by clicking the target and checking. It's harder to do, but that's an aspect of skill. You have to weigh it, is it worth dumbing it down for the casual players at the cost of lowering the skillcap? Since Dota is by many considered a very high-tier competitive game, it's extra dangerous to dumb it down. I disagree with you. Teapoted was talking about ui, gaymon is talking about mechanics, they are not the same at all.
Do you know what these changes do ? Correct, they dimish the usefullness of abilities a currently good player has developed. These are the small things which make Dota stand out above other games of this genre.
EDIT: Mechanics and UI are not not the same at all, especially not in this case because its not "UI" when all u need to do is beeing smart.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On June 10 2013 22:56 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 22:51 PassiveAce wrote:On June 10 2013 22:48 Tobberoth wrote:On June 10 2013 22:45 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 22:43 gaymon wrote:On June 10 2013 22:18 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 21:44 cecek wrote:
I'm not a graphical artist or a designer, but I don't really see how you could revolutionize the UI. There's a minimap, which is essential for this kind of game, and where else would you stick that than one of the bottom corners? Then inventory slots and skills. Again, absolutely essential, need to be well visible. The bottom of the screen seems like the appropriate place for it. Then there's the hero portrait, which I can imagine you could do without, but I don't see why. It tells you quickly what unit you're controlling and it has an estetic function as well. I guess the only thing they could change would be the rest: the quick buy field, courier icons, glyph and unit stats. That might be possible to change, but I don't see any drastic change that would make. Well it wouldn't be revolutionary if it was obvious would it? The point is that not working in the restrictions of cloning a 10 year old UI would allow for anything, while at the moment, it doesn't. And there's a lot to achieve without 'revolutionizing'. The ulti active icon isn't revolutionary yet it makes people better players and makes the game easier to watch. There are a lot of things in this regard which could be done, better ways of showing health and mana, ways of conveying mana costs of multiple skills combined (like alt+click abilities and they add together in your mana bar), better ways of conveying valid targets, better ways of designing a mini-map especially for newer players (hell you could take the classic diablo map and just overlay it large in transparency on the left and it would drastically increase map awareness of new players).Then there's a lot to be said for simplifying and how it can help newer players. And there's a lot to be said for better spectator experiences. And there's a lot to be said for increasing the aesthetic appeal of the game by going away from looking into a window in the center. Ultimately, neither I as a designer or you as not would need to have a hundred great ideas off the top of our heads to decide if more can be done by not working under restrictions. And either way I care more about the spectator experience which I could think of a hundred ideas of the top of my head for how it could be improved if you removed the bar at the top and the bottom and allowed anything. Just look at gameheart. We could aswell remove denies, remove gold lost ond death, take out tps, and give everybody enough base manaregen to spam spells 24/7. We might also add cool new features where new heroes have to be bought first before you can play them or smth like that. Very insightful. Move along now. He is correct though, it's a dangerous path when you start to simplify things which dumb down gameplay. Being able to see your opponents exact mana is sweet if you're playing anti-mage and want to calculate how your ulti will do, but a good player can do that anyway by clicking the target and checking. It's harder to do, but that's an aspect of skill. You have to weigh it, is it worth dumbing it down for the casual players at the cost of lowering the skillcap? Since Dota is by many considered a very high-tier competitive game, it's extra dangerous to dumb it down. I disagree with you. Teapoted was talking about ui, gaymon is talking about mechanics, they are not the same at all. Do you know what these changes do ? Correct, they dimish the usefullness of abilities a currently good player has developed. These are the small things which make Dota stand out above other games of this genre. No, they are not.
Hero and map design is what makes Dota stand out above other games.
If you really think those things are what make it Dota, then you should go back to Garena and play some real Dota, not this Dota 2 casual shit where you don't even have to use third party applications to bind your items.
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Dota 2 Update - June 5th, 2013
dota_range_display is now only usable in Bot Matchmaking, Practice lobby with bots and Practice lobbies with cheats enabled
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On June 10 2013 22:56 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 22:51 PassiveAce wrote:On June 10 2013 22:48 Tobberoth wrote:On June 10 2013 22:45 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 22:43 gaymon wrote:On June 10 2013 22:18 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 21:44 cecek wrote:
I'm not a graphical artist or a designer, but I don't really see how you could revolutionize the UI. There's a minimap, which is essential for this kind of game, and where else would you stick that than one of the bottom corners? Then inventory slots and skills. Again, absolutely essential, need to be well visible. The bottom of the screen seems like the appropriate place for it. Then there's the hero portrait, which I can imagine you could do without, but I don't see why. It tells you quickly what unit you're controlling and it has an estetic function as well. I guess the only thing they could change would be the rest: the quick buy field, courier icons, glyph and unit stats. That might be possible to change, but I don't see any drastic change that would make. Well it wouldn't be revolutionary if it was obvious would it? The point is that not working in the restrictions of cloning a 10 year old UI would allow for anything, while at the moment, it doesn't. And there's a lot to achieve without 'revolutionizing'. The ulti active icon isn't revolutionary yet it makes people better players and makes the game easier to watch. There are a lot of things in this regard which could be done, better ways of showing health and mana, ways of conveying mana costs of multiple skills combined (like alt+click abilities and they add together in your mana bar), better ways of conveying valid targets, better ways of designing a mini-map especially for newer players (hell you could take the classic diablo map and just overlay it large in transparency on the left and it would drastically increase map awareness of new players).Then there's a lot to be said for simplifying and how it can help newer players. And there's a lot to be said for better spectator experiences. And there's a lot to be said for increasing the aesthetic appeal of the game by going away from looking into a window in the center. Ultimately, neither I as a designer or you as not would need to have a hundred great ideas off the top of our heads to decide if more can be done by not working under restrictions. And either way I care more about the spectator experience which I could think of a hundred ideas of the top of my head for how it could be improved if you removed the bar at the top and the bottom and allowed anything. Just look at gameheart. We could aswell remove denies, remove gold lost ond death, take out tps, and give everybody enough base manaregen to spam spells 24/7. We might also add cool new features where new heroes have to be bought first before you can play them or smth like that. Very insightful. Move along now. He is correct though, it's a dangerous path when you start to simplify things which dumb down gameplay. Being able to see your opponents exact mana is sweet if you're playing anti-mage and want to calculate how your ulti will do, but a good player can do that anyway by clicking the target and checking. It's harder to do, but that's an aspect of skill. You have to weigh it, is it worth dumbing it down for the casual players at the cost of lowering the skillcap? Since Dota is by many considered a very high-tier competitive game, it's extra dangerous to dumb it down. I disagree with you. Teapoted was talking about ui, gaymon is talking about mechanics, they are not the same at all. Do you know what these changes do ? Correct, they dimish the usefullness of abilities a currently good player has developed. These are the small things which make Dota stand out above other games of this genre. EDIT: Mechanics and UI are not not the same at all, especially not in this case because its not "UI" when all u need to do is beeing smart.
Wouldnt the logical extension of this argument be to go back to playing DotA? Since dota2 gives you a ton of tools that help people of all skill levels, which diminishes the value of experience. right?
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The shop, for example. I haven't heard a lot of people whining that "the shop is lowering the skill cap" or some similar BS. Yet it is distinctly different from the Dota 1 shops. Hell, I can SEARCH this one.
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On June 10 2013 23:21 Sn0_Man wrote:
The shop, for example. I haven't heard a lot of people whining that "the shop is lowering the skill cap" or some similar BS. Yet it is distinctly different from the Dota 1 shops. Hell, I can SEARCH this one.
Most people who didn't play dota1 would take about 5 minutes to figure out how to make a magic wand by themselves xD
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On June 10 2013 23:24 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 23:21 Sn0_Man wrote:
The shop, for example. I haven't heard a lot of people whining that "the shop is lowering the skill cap" or some similar BS. Yet it is distinctly different from the Dota 1 shops. Hell, I can SEARCH this one. Most people who didn't play dota1 would take about 5 minutes to figure out how to make a magic wand by themselves xD
It took me a hell of a lot longer then that actually but I hadnt played in 8+ years.
edit- I guess it was more like 6+ but still :p
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Netherlands45349 Posts
In b4 where can I get wood.
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I still dont know what those circle things in the bases do.
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On June 10 2013 23:21 Sn0_Man wrote:
The shop, for example. I haven't heard a lot of people whining that "the shop is lowering the skill cap" or some similar BS. Yet it is distinctly different from the Dota 1 shops. Hell, I can SEARCH this one.
That's not comparable. Any player who has played dota for like 50 games can find their way around the shop just as fast as a pro, it's a non-issue. If you gave one team a dota 1 shop and the other a dota 2 shop, you wouldn't notice any difference in a thousand games between them. However, his recommended changes DO have this difference.
Using the shop isn't skill-based. Clicking your opponents to check their mana is, it requires mechanical skill to pull it off fast enough. It's a pure cop-out to say "Changing the UI is different from changing the mechanics" if you don't define what is what.
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On June 10 2013 23:29 PassiveAce wrote:
I still dont know what those circle things in the bases do.
They are really big actually. They let you disassemble items, collect all items to assemble all those components pilling on them, freeze leavers to make them unkillable, glyph was on them too
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On June 10 2013 23:05 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 22:56 gaymon wrote:On June 10 2013 22:51 PassiveAce wrote:On June 10 2013 22:48 Tobberoth wrote:On June 10 2013 22:45 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 22:43 gaymon wrote:On June 10 2013 22:18 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 21:44 cecek wrote:
I'm not a graphical artist or a designer, but I don't really see how you could revolutionize the UI. There's a minimap, which is essential for this kind of game, and where else would you stick that than one of the bottom corners? Then inventory slots and skills. Again, absolutely essential, need to be well visible. The bottom of the screen seems like the appropriate place for it. Then there's the hero portrait, which I can imagine you could do without, but I don't see why. It tells you quickly what unit you're controlling and it has an estetic function as well. I guess the only thing they could change would be the rest: the quick buy field, courier icons, glyph and unit stats. That might be possible to change, but I don't see any drastic change that would make. Well it wouldn't be revolutionary if it was obvious would it? The point is that not working in the restrictions of cloning a 10 year old UI would allow for anything, while at the moment, it doesn't. And there's a lot to achieve without 'revolutionizing'. The ulti active icon isn't revolutionary yet it makes people better players and makes the game easier to watch. There are a lot of things in this regard which could be done, better ways of showing health and mana, ways of conveying mana costs of multiple skills combined (like alt+click abilities and they add together in your mana bar), better ways of conveying valid targets, better ways of designing a mini-map especially for newer players (hell you could take the classic diablo map and just overlay it large in transparency on the left and it would drastically increase map awareness of new players).Then there's a lot to be said for simplifying and how it can help newer players. And there's a lot to be said for better spectator experiences. And there's a lot to be said for increasing the aesthetic appeal of the game by going away from looking into a window in the center. Ultimately, neither I as a designer or you as not would need to have a hundred great ideas off the top of our heads to decide if more can be done by not working under restrictions. And either way I care more about the spectator experience which I could think of a hundred ideas of the top of my head for how it could be improved if you removed the bar at the top and the bottom and allowed anything. Just look at gameheart. We could aswell remove denies, remove gold lost ond death, take out tps, and give everybody enough base manaregen to spam spells 24/7. We might also add cool new features where new heroes have to be bought first before you can play them or smth like that. Very insightful. Move along now. He is correct though, it's a dangerous path when you start to simplify things which dumb down gameplay. Being able to see your opponents exact mana is sweet if you're playing anti-mage and want to calculate how your ulti will do, but a good player can do that anyway by clicking the target and checking. It's harder to do, but that's an aspect of skill. You have to weigh it, is it worth dumbing it down for the casual players at the cost of lowering the skillcap? Since Dota is by many considered a very high-tier competitive game, it's extra dangerous to dumb it down. I disagree with you. Teapoted was talking about ui, gaymon is talking about mechanics, they are not the same at all. Do you know what these changes do ? Correct, they dimish the usefullness of abilities a currently good player has developed. These are the small things which make Dota stand out above other games of this genre. EDIT: Mechanics and UI are not not the same at all, especially not in this case because its not "UI" when all u need to do is beeing smart. Wouldnt the logical extension of this argument be to go back to playing DotA? Since dota2 gives you a ton of tools that help people of all skill levels, which diminishes the value of experience. right?
Just like everyone should go back to BW over SC2 right? *rolls eyes*
Just because you don't like the direction a game is taking doesn't mean you aren't allowed to play it and even enjoy it.
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To be honest I still like the old one more, I miss Sena the Accessorize. The old item icons were much cooler too.
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I think having to make extra clicks to get your items is pretty similar to having to make extra clicks to see an opponents mana tbh.
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On June 10 2013 23:31 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 23:05 PassiveAce wrote:On June 10 2013 22:56 gaymon wrote:On June 10 2013 22:51 PassiveAce wrote:On June 10 2013 22:48 Tobberoth wrote:On June 10 2013 22:45 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 22:43 gaymon wrote:On June 10 2013 22:18 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 21:44 cecek wrote:
I'm not a graphical artist or a designer, but I don't really see how you could revolutionize the UI. There's a minimap, which is essential for this kind of game, and where else would you stick that than one of the bottom corners? Then inventory slots and skills. Again, absolutely essential, need to be well visible. The bottom of the screen seems like the appropriate place for it. Then there's the hero portrait, which I can imagine you could do without, but I don't see why. It tells you quickly what unit you're controlling and it has an estetic function as well. I guess the only thing they could change would be the rest: the quick buy field, courier icons, glyph and unit stats. That might be possible to change, but I don't see any drastic change that would make. Well it wouldn't be revolutionary if it was obvious would it? The point is that not working in the restrictions of cloning a 10 year old UI would allow for anything, while at the moment, it doesn't. And there's a lot to achieve without 'revolutionizing'. The ulti active icon isn't revolutionary yet it makes people better players and makes the game easier to watch. There are a lot of things in this regard which could be done, better ways of showing health and mana, ways of conveying mana costs of multiple skills combined (like alt+click abilities and they add together in your mana bar), better ways of conveying valid targets, better ways of designing a mini-map especially for newer players (hell you could take the classic diablo map and just overlay it large in transparency on the left and it would drastically increase map awareness of new players).Then there's a lot to be said for simplifying and how it can help newer players. And there's a lot to be said for better spectator experiences. And there's a lot to be said for increasing the aesthetic appeal of the game by going away from looking into a window in the center. Ultimately, neither I as a designer or you as not would need to have a hundred great ideas off the top of our heads to decide if more can be done by not working under restrictions. And either way I care more about the spectator experience which I could think of a hundred ideas of the top of my head for how it could be improved if you removed the bar at the top and the bottom and allowed anything. Just look at gameheart. We could aswell remove denies, remove gold lost ond death, take out tps, and give everybody enough base manaregen to spam spells 24/7. We might also add cool new features where new heroes have to be bought first before you can play them or smth like that. Very insightful. Move along now. He is correct though, it's a dangerous path when you start to simplify things which dumb down gameplay. Being able to see your opponents exact mana is sweet if you're playing anti-mage and want to calculate how your ulti will do, but a good player can do that anyway by clicking the target and checking. It's harder to do, but that's an aspect of skill. You have to weigh it, is it worth dumbing it down for the casual players at the cost of lowering the skillcap? Since Dota is by many considered a very high-tier competitive game, it's extra dangerous to dumb it down. I disagree with you. Teapoted was talking about ui, gaymon is talking about mechanics, they are not the same at all. Do you know what these changes do ? Correct, they dimish the usefullness of abilities a currently good player has developed. These are the small things which make Dota stand out above other games of this genre. EDIT: Mechanics and UI are not not the same at all, especially not in this case because its not "UI" when all u need to do is beeing smart. Wouldnt the logical extension of this argument be to go back to playing DotA? Since dota2 gives you a ton of tools that help people of all skill levels, which diminishes the value of experience. right? Just like everyone should go back to BW over SC2 right? *rolls eyes* Just because you don't like the direction a game is taking doesn't mean you aren't allowed to play it and even enjoy it.
I have literally no idea what you are trying to say to me :/
Maybe you think im implying something that I didnt intend to imply?
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On June 10 2013 23:34 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 23:31 Tobberoth wrote:On June 10 2013 23:05 PassiveAce wrote:On June 10 2013 22:56 gaymon wrote:On June 10 2013 22:51 PassiveAce wrote:On June 10 2013 22:48 Tobberoth wrote:On June 10 2013 22:45 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 22:43 gaymon wrote:On June 10 2013 22:18 teapoted wrote:On June 10 2013 21:44 cecek wrote:
I'm not a graphical artist or a designer, but I don't really see how you could revolutionize the UI. There's a minimap, which is essential for this kind of game, and where else would you stick that than one of the bottom corners? Then inventory slots and skills. Again, absolutely essential, need to be well visible. The bottom of the screen seems like the appropriate place for it. Then there's the hero portrait, which I can imagine you could do without, but I don't see why. It tells you quickly what unit you're controlling and it has an estetic function as well. I guess the only thing they could change would be the rest: the quick buy field, courier icons, glyph and unit stats. That might be possible to change, but I don't see any drastic change that would make. Well it wouldn't be revolutionary if it was obvious would it? The point is that not working in the restrictions of cloning a 10 year old UI would allow for anything, while at the moment, it doesn't. And there's a lot to achieve without 'revolutionizing'. The ulti active icon isn't revolutionary yet it makes people better players and makes the game easier to watch. There are a lot of things in this regard which could be done, better ways of showing health and mana, ways of conveying mana costs of multiple skills combined (like alt+click abilities and they add together in your mana bar), better ways of conveying valid targets, better ways of designing a mini-map especially for newer players (hell you could take the classic diablo map and just overlay it large in transparency on the left and it would drastically increase map awareness of new players).Then there's a lot to be said for simplifying and how it can help newer players. And there's a lot to be said for better spectator experiences. And there's a lot to be said for increasing the aesthetic appeal of the game by going away from looking into a window in the center. Ultimately, neither I as a designer or you as not would need to have a hundred great ideas off the top of our heads to decide if more can be done by not working under restrictions. And either way I care more about the spectator experience which I could think of a hundred ideas of the top of my head for how it could be improved if you removed the bar at the top and the bottom and allowed anything. Just look at gameheart. We could aswell remove denies, remove gold lost ond death, take out tps, and give everybody enough base manaregen to spam spells 24/7. We might also add cool new features where new heroes have to be bought first before you can play them or smth like that. Very insightful. Move along now. He is correct though, it's a dangerous path when you start to simplify things which dumb down gameplay. Being able to see your opponents exact mana is sweet if you're playing anti-mage and want to calculate how your ulti will do, but a good player can do that anyway by clicking the target and checking. It's harder to do, but that's an aspect of skill. You have to weigh it, is it worth dumbing it down for the casual players at the cost of lowering the skillcap? Since Dota is by many considered a very high-tier competitive game, it's extra dangerous to dumb it down. I disagree with you. Teapoted was talking about ui, gaymon is talking about mechanics, they are not the same at all. Do you know what these changes do ? Correct, they dimish the usefullness of abilities a currently good player has developed. These are the small things which make Dota stand out above other games of this genre. EDIT: Mechanics and UI are not not the same at all, especially not in this case because its not "UI" when all u need to do is beeing smart. Wouldnt the logical extension of this argument be to go back to playing DotA? Since dota2 gives you a ton of tools that help people of all skill levels, which diminishes the value of experience. right? Just like everyone should go back to BW over SC2 right? *rolls eyes* Just because you don't like the direction a game is taking doesn't mean you aren't allowed to play it and even enjoy it. I have literally no idea what you are trying to say to me :/
I feel like Louis trying to explain stuff to Peter...
The logical extension is NOT to go back to playing DotA; The logical extension is to hope for a different direction for Dota 2, where these tools that dimnishes the value of experience aren't supplied.
EDIT: If you didn't imply what I'm thinking, I must be reading your post completely wrong. In my mind, you're pretty much saying "If you dislike this stuff added to Dota 2, you should play Dota 1".
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Dota2 already gives the player an enormous amount of this information that "reduces the value of experience"
nobody wants the shop from dota1 even tho it gives an advantage to experienced players. Nobody wants to get rid of the little marker that lets you know when your teammates ults are up.
I'm just not with you on this one Tobberoth :/
I hope we can talk about this without you insulting me tho.
edit- im not literally saying that he should go play dota1, that is a useless thing to say. Im just trying to draw a comparison between the two.
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On June 10 2013 23:33 PassiveAce wrote:
I think having to make extra clicks to get your items is pretty similar to having to make extra clicks to see an opponents mana tbh.
No, because the time constraint is completely different. You're only in a "hurry" to buy items if you're trying to buy the items as you're about to die to save unreliable gold. In this case, I agree that the Dota 2 shop is simplifying because you can quick-buy with one keystroke. In all other cases, it doesn't matter if it takes you a second or five to buy the items. If you want to ulti with anti-mage in a situation where you need to know the opponents exact mana, you will not have 5 seconds, you might not even have one. Your opponent might be close to getting out of vision, you might be close to dying etc.
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On June 10 2013 23:32 Incze wrote:
To be honest I still like the old one more, I miss Sena the Accessorize. The old item icons were much cooler too.
relevant post that was ignored by people:
On May 21 2013 05:59 BurningSera wrote:I have always wanted to be the mountain king dude standing beside the lovely Sena the accessorizer  'It's hammer time!' 'Welcome to the village!'
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When I'm mid and I can very easily buy a complete magic wand on the courier, without even moving my screen off my hero, I'd say thats a pretty substantial upgrade/advantage/change or whatever. I used to die more often than I should when I used to click back to base to buy stuff.
I'm not here to make the argument for inbuilt range indicators (I kinda feel like those don't belong in the game but I'm not adamant about that) or for visible mana bars on enemy heroes (Which tbh I wouldn't mind but I'm now used to them missing and so I'm fine without as well). I just scoff at the idea that valve hasn't made the game easier through improving certain User Interface elements. They have done so where they felt justified, and I hope they continue to do so wherever they feel the need.
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EPT
