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On June 11 2013 00:55 Unleashing wrote:
As 'OP' as gangplank was in LoL when he could deny as the only character.
At the risk of sparking unecessary LoL vs Dota debate, in LoL the position of creep waves in side lanes is somewhat less crucial to manipulate due to how close those towers are in relation to dota sidelane towers. Lich can near-guarantee that the creep wave sits at your tower as long as necessary when the other team cannot deny their creeps (barring pulls).
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On June 11 2013 00:55 Unleashing wrote:
As 'OP' as gangplank was in LoL when he could deny as the only character.
But GP was OP for awhile...... :O
No mana bars plz. Just keep parity with DotA 1 as much as possible. Certain things should change, but manabars is not one of them. It reduces the level of skill it takes to play the game, and DotA is all about those little nuances that you need to learn in order to be good at the game.
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United States47024 Posts
Ok, I apologize teapoted, I didn't see this second post on my way out, so I'm going to look at the one you probably meant when you said you had examples:
On June 10 2013 22:18 teapoted wrote:
And there's a lot to achieve without 'revolutionizing'. The ulti active icon isn't revolutionary yet it makes people better players and makes the game easier to watch. There are a lot of things in this regard which could be done, better ways of showing health and mana, ways of conveying mana costs of multiple skills combined (like alt+click abilities and they add together in your mana bar), better ways of conveying valid targets, better ways of designing a mini-map especially for newer players (hell you could take the classic diablo map and just overlay it large in transparency on the left and it would drastically increase map awareness of new players).
Conveying mana cost of combined skills--I don't see how this could be useful. The task you're automating (adding two multiples of 5, usually multiples of 10) is less complicated than any conceivable feature you could add to automate it. Certainly the one you suggested (alt-click the skill icons) seems that way--for me at least, adding two small multiples of 10 is faster than clicking two skill icons then looking at the mana bar to see the sum.
Better ways of conveying valid targets--this is a bit vague. I don't know how you'd do this in a sensible way. I like the idea of it, but when creep-targetable skills come into play, anything I can think of that would be nice for displaying valid hero targets would be really really cluttered displaying all creeps as valid.
Minimap design--I don't think the Diablo style minimap is suitable at all. Literally the only thing that you have to resolve from the Diablo minimap is your position within the topology of the level. As such, displaying a poorly resolved minimap on the background of your gameplay is acceptable. There's too much information you need to read out of the DotA minimap, it would be too impractical for anyone to use that.
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I'd trade treant for maokai in a heartbeat.As much as Dota is a better game,LoL has the better tree.hue
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Netherlands45349 Posts
MB if mana bars showed Flamewheel would finally land a proper Mana Slam Dunk(he does it on full mana heroes all the time).
but yeah, no mana bars please.
if I want any lol hero ill trade Treant for Lux hands down.
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mana bars would make huge am ulties comically easy
edit: goddamit beaten by offlane am expert himself
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I think if I wanted to swap out a hero for a champ or w/e I'd drop mappo. He's kinda an awesome hero concept but I don't ever want to random him so... 
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On June 11 2013 01:04 Kipsate wrote:
MB if mana bars showed Flamewheel would finally land a proper Mana Slam Dunk(he does it on full mana heroes all the time).
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god feedwheel, how hard it is to check the mana? :D
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All of the heroes i liked in LoL would suck in dota.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On June 11 2013 01:02 TheYango wrote:Ok, I apologize teapoted, I didn't see this second post on my way out, so I'm going to look at the one you probably meant when you said you had examples: Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 22:18 teapoted wrote:
And there's a lot to achieve without 'revolutionizing'. The ulti active icon isn't revolutionary yet it makes people better players and makes the game easier to watch. There are a lot of things in this regard which could be done, better ways of showing health and mana, ways of conveying mana costs of multiple skills combined (like alt+click abilities and they add together in your mana bar), better ways of conveying valid targets, better ways of designing a mini-map especially for newer players (hell you could take the classic diablo map and just overlay it large in transparency on the left and it would drastically increase map awareness of new players). Conveying mana cost of combined skills--I don't see how this could be useful. The task you're automating (adding two multiples of 5, usually multiples of 10) is less complicated than any conceivable feature you could add to automate it. Certainly the one you suggested (alt-click the skill icons) seems that way--for me at least, adding two small multiples of 10 is faster than clicking two skill icons then looking at the mana bar to see the sum. Better ways of conveying valid targets--this is a bit vague. I don't know how you'd do this in a sensible way. I like the idea of it, but when creep-targetable skills come into play, anything I can think of that would be nice for displaying valid hero targets would be really really cluttered displaying all creeps as valid. Minimap design--I don't think the Diablo style minimap is suitable at all. Literally the only thing that you have to resolve from the Diablo minimap is your position within the topology of the level. As such, displaying a poorly resolved minimap on the background of your gameplay is acceptable. There's too much information you need to read out of the DotA minimap, it would be too impractical for anyone to use that. I'm not really interested in arguing individual things, I just wrote examples because I knew people would ask for them, although I don't think it's important to the point because it's about what's possible with designers spending months working on something without restrictions and with heavy restriction.
Either way I'll respond to those topics, although it wasn't really the point and they are half-baked 5-second ideas.
1. You do it at the beginning of the game, you will see a split line on your mana bar so you can always see it. Even for individual skills this would be useful because you wouldn't even have to look at your mana you could see what it is relative to a spell cost.
2. It wouldn't be cluttered, when you hover over something or click to target something it can put a yellow glow under the unit. You could even do basic colour coding to show people when damage or disable will go through. Again, half-baked 5-second ideas.
3. If designed well none of this would be a problem and with a flexible UI people would have the option.
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United States47024 Posts
Except I feel this is a topic where you have to argue individual things to make any headway. We got bogged down on "enemy mana bars" because absolutely nobody could think of any other relevant UI revamps.
You as a designer have insight into this sort of thing that we as regular players don't know so you have to impart this to us to make your point.
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One thing that I might like to see would be a more customizeable "ulti available" dot below heroes.
The only reason I say that is because nobody gives two hoots if Lone Druid has his ulti up, but bear resummon is so crucial. No, I can't think of a good way to represent that. No, it doesn't really fix the issue of Drow/Meepo/PL having irrelevant ultis (in terms of "availability", not usefulness obviously).
I wouldn't mind Aegis having a timer on it as well... although maybe thats because I'm a bad support who always forgets to write down rosh time.
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pretty sure EE would hang himself if dota ever introduced visible timers
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On June 11 2013 01:17 TheYango wrote:
Except I feel this is a topic where you have to argue individual things to make any headway. We got bogged down on "enemy mana bars" because absolutely nobody could think of any other relevant UI revamps.
You as a designer have insight into this sort of thing that we as regular players don't know so you have to impart this to us to make your point. Well my original point is that I think it's limiting. I also think that coming up with something new and great takes time. This is why I don't think giving examples is all that relevant to my original point, although I can give you half-baked examples all day long, it isn't what comes from months of design and testing.
The gameplay parts are very complex and hard to say what would make a positive impact, but at least from a spectator experience I'd think it's obvious to everyone that it could be much better if we weren't stuck in 1998. (I'll bring up gameheart again)
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Vatican City State2902 Posts
I just wish that chat had optional timestamps and that you could scroll back through the kill notifications. that would be really nice.
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Lets not forget better game end stats too
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On June 11 2013 00:14 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 00:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
Kunkka can cast Torrent when he's out of vision range before walking in to avoid you seeing his cast animation. If his blue bar were to suddenly drop, there's no way you can hide that.
Whatever else you guys suggest, enemy mana bars are simply too big of a change. I already said, I'm not advocating for this particular change or any other, but I don't agree with what you are saying here. A) Enemy mana bars never felt dumb or "too big a change". I never saw "oh his mana dropped he must have cast a spell" in HoN. People still clue off of animations. Yes, there was a lot of "Oh hes oom we can fight" which in Dota is only available through clicking on somebody. Yes, I think that clicking on somebody like that raises the "skill cap" and is probably a good thing. B) It is still true that if you can see his mana drop you can see the cast animation. "Oh he cast it out of vision range" so then you didn't see the mana drop either. I'm gonna go with people good enough to notice will also notice a kunkka charging at them full steam, and people bad enough to let a kunkka charge at them full steam who was recently out of vision won't even notice the mana drop. I mean, we are talking like a half second window to notice, decide, and get out. And that is if the kunkka is masterful at casting juuuuust out of vision range. I know I have enough issues dodging torrents that are telegraphed and everything.
Eh? Let's imagine a situation where you're 1v1ing Kunkka mid. You walk to the creep wave in the middle of the river and lose vision of his high ground for a split second. He chooses that time to Torrent so you don't see his animation. You then walk back up to your high ground (thus regaining vision of him) as he walks forward to hit a creep.
Situation 1) There is no mana bar. You have no idea he casted Torrent and do not react.
Situation 2) There is a mana bar. In the few seconds you lost vision of him, his mana bar dropped from full to 50%. You dodge.
It is a big deal.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On June 11 2013 01:39 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 00:14 Sn0_Man wrote:On June 11 2013 00:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
Kunkka can cast Torrent when he's out of vision range before walking in to avoid you seeing his cast animation. If his blue bar were to suddenly drop, there's no way you can hide that.
Whatever else you guys suggest, enemy mana bars are simply too big of a change. I already said, I'm not advocating for this particular change or any other, but I don't agree with what you are saying here. A) Enemy mana bars never felt dumb or "too big a change". I never saw "oh his mana dropped he must have cast a spell" in HoN. People still clue off of animations. Yes, there was a lot of "Oh hes oom we can fight" which in Dota is only available through clicking on somebody. Yes, I think that clicking on somebody like that raises the "skill cap" and is probably a good thing. B) It is still true that if you can see his mana drop you can see the cast animation. "Oh he cast it out of vision range" so then you didn't see the mana drop either. I'm gonna go with people good enough to notice will also notice a kunkka charging at them full steam, and people bad enough to let a kunkka charge at them full steam who was recently out of vision won't even notice the mana drop. I mean, we are talking like a half second window to notice, decide, and get out. And that is if the kunkka is masterful at casting juuuuust out of vision range. I know I have enough issues dodging torrents that are telegraphed and everything. Eh? Let's imagine a situation where you're 1v1ing Kunkka mid. You walk to the creep wave in the middle of the river and lose vision of his high ground for a split second. He chooses that time to Torrent so you don't see his animation. You then walk back up to your high ground (thus regaining vision of him) as he walks forward to hit a creep. Situation 1) There is no mana bar. You have no idea he casted Torrent and do not react. Situation 2) There is a mana bar. In the few seconds you lost vision of him, his mana bar dropped from full to 50%. You dodge. It is a big deal. This is easily fixed by just locking visible mana from the enemy on delayed spells until the spell goes off.
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On June 11 2013 01:39 Firebolt145 wrote:
In the few seconds you lost vision of him, his mana bar dropped from full to 50%
Torrent is 1.6 second delay I believe. If you lose vision for long enough for him to get the animation off its almost certainly long enough for the mana loss to not be sufficient warning.
TBH I think Sand King might be affected more since his ulti costs an un-missable amount of mana and sometimes the animation isn't too clear (if you only get a brief glimpse of him).
However, we just named essentially the only 2 skills in all of dota that can matter.
I still agree that mana bars are probably not a good idea, I just don't agree that "they clue you in to opponents casting spells" when they really don't.
E: I suppose alchemist stun is kinda a thing as well but that plays sound and has an animation while charging so you should know what's up.
Actually, this would seriously affect slark purge though (unless you disguise the mana cost in his pounce). I Didn't think of that 
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On June 11 2013 01:44 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 01:39 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 11 2013 00:14 Sn0_Man wrote:On June 11 2013 00:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
Kunkka can cast Torrent when he's out of vision range before walking in to avoid you seeing his cast animation. If his blue bar were to suddenly drop, there's no way you can hide that.
Whatever else you guys suggest, enemy mana bars are simply too big of a change. I already said, I'm not advocating for this particular change or any other, but I don't agree with what you are saying here. A) Enemy mana bars never felt dumb or "too big a change". I never saw "oh his mana dropped he must have cast a spell" in HoN. People still clue off of animations. Yes, there was a lot of "Oh hes oom we can fight" which in Dota is only available through clicking on somebody. Yes, I think that clicking on somebody like that raises the "skill cap" and is probably a good thing. B) It is still true that if you can see his mana drop you can see the cast animation. "Oh he cast it out of vision range" so then you didn't see the mana drop either. I'm gonna go with people good enough to notice will also notice a kunkka charging at them full steam, and people bad enough to let a kunkka charge at them full steam who was recently out of vision won't even notice the mana drop. I mean, we are talking like a half second window to notice, decide, and get out. And that is if the kunkka is masterful at casting juuuuust out of vision range. I know I have enough issues dodging torrents that are telegraphed and everything. Eh? Let's imagine a situation where you're 1v1ing Kunkka mid. You walk to the creep wave in the middle of the river and lose vision of his high ground for a split second. He chooses that time to Torrent so you don't see his animation. You then walk back up to your high ground (thus regaining vision of him) as he walks forward to hit a creep. Situation 1) There is no mana bar. You have no idea he casted Torrent and do not react. Situation 2) There is a mana bar. In the few seconds you lost vision of him, his mana bar dropped from full to 50%. You dodge. It is a big deal. This is easily fixed by just locking visible mana from the enemy on delayed spells until the spell goes off.
I think that would be an awkward solution. Torrent goes off immediatly, it just has a delayed effect. You would have to manually set up a timer for each spell, and is technically giving false information and counter intuitive. His mana will suddenly drop for no reason.
There are plenty of other examples as well, when fighting a Storm, knowing exactly how much mana he has at all time is a big deal, and any 5v5 teamfight is too caotic for you to pay attention to everyone's mana pool by clicking, while being able to notice a hero is OOM with a glance is very easy.
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EPT
