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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On June 11 2013 01:44 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 01:39 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 11 2013 00:14 Sn0_Man wrote:On June 11 2013 00:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
Kunkka can cast Torrent when he's out of vision range before walking in to avoid you seeing his cast animation. If his blue bar were to suddenly drop, there's no way you can hide that.
Whatever else you guys suggest, enemy mana bars are simply too big of a change. I already said, I'm not advocating for this particular change or any other, but I don't agree with what you are saying here. A) Enemy mana bars never felt dumb or "too big a change". I never saw "oh his mana dropped he must have cast a spell" in HoN. People still clue off of animations. Yes, there was a lot of "Oh hes oom we can fight" which in Dota is only available through clicking on somebody. Yes, I think that clicking on somebody like that raises the "skill cap" and is probably a good thing. B) It is still true that if you can see his mana drop you can see the cast animation. "Oh he cast it out of vision range" so then you didn't see the mana drop either. I'm gonna go with people good enough to notice will also notice a kunkka charging at them full steam, and people bad enough to let a kunkka charge at them full steam who was recently out of vision won't even notice the mana drop. I mean, we are talking like a half second window to notice, decide, and get out. And that is if the kunkka is masterful at casting juuuuust out of vision range. I know I have enough issues dodging torrents that are telegraphed and everything. Eh? Let's imagine a situation where you're 1v1ing Kunkka mid. You walk to the creep wave in the middle of the river and lose vision of his high ground for a split second. He chooses that time to Torrent so you don't see his animation. You then walk back up to your high ground (thus regaining vision of him) as he walks forward to hit a creep. Situation 1) There is no mana bar. You have no idea he casted Torrent and do not react. Situation 2) There is a mana bar. In the few seconds you lost vision of him, his mana bar dropped from full to 50%. You dodge. It is a big deal. This is easily fixed by just locking visible mana from the enemy on delayed spells until the spell goes off.
Yet a particularly astute pro might've clicked on the Kunkka as he came back into range and noticed that his mana was missing the old fashioned way. Or should we start talking about introducing deliberate discrepancies?
Mana bars in particular are very grey. It's the only thing that we've discussed so far which I feel complete disagreement with. Everything else I'm kinda neutral on.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On June 11 2013 01:49 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 01:44 teapoted wrote:On June 11 2013 01:39 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 11 2013 00:14 Sn0_Man wrote:On June 11 2013 00:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
Kunkka can cast Torrent when he's out of vision range before walking in to avoid you seeing his cast animation. If his blue bar were to suddenly drop, there's no way you can hide that.
Whatever else you guys suggest, enemy mana bars are simply too big of a change. I already said, I'm not advocating for this particular change or any other, but I don't agree with what you are saying here. A) Enemy mana bars never felt dumb or "too big a change". I never saw "oh his mana dropped he must have cast a spell" in HoN. People still clue off of animations. Yes, there was a lot of "Oh hes oom we can fight" which in Dota is only available through clicking on somebody. Yes, I think that clicking on somebody like that raises the "skill cap" and is probably a good thing. B) It is still true that if you can see his mana drop you can see the cast animation. "Oh he cast it out of vision range" so then you didn't see the mana drop either. I'm gonna go with people good enough to notice will also notice a kunkka charging at them full steam, and people bad enough to let a kunkka charge at them full steam who was recently out of vision won't even notice the mana drop. I mean, we are talking like a half second window to notice, decide, and get out. And that is if the kunkka is masterful at casting juuuuust out of vision range. I know I have enough issues dodging torrents that are telegraphed and everything. Eh? Let's imagine a situation where you're 1v1ing Kunkka mid. You walk to the creep wave in the middle of the river and lose vision of his high ground for a split second. He chooses that time to Torrent so you don't see his animation. You then walk back up to your high ground (thus regaining vision of him) as he walks forward to hit a creep. Situation 1) There is no mana bar. You have no idea he casted Torrent and do not react. Situation 2) There is a mana bar. In the few seconds you lost vision of him, his mana bar dropped from full to 50%. You dodge. It is a big deal. This is easily fixed by just locking visible mana from the enemy on delayed spells until the spell goes off. I think that would be an awkward solution. Torrent goes off immediatly, it just has a delayed effect. You would have to manually set up a timer for each spell, and is technically giving false information and counter intuitive. His mana will suddenly drop for no reason. There are plenty of other examples as well, when fighting a Storm, knowing exactly how much mana he has at all time is a big deal, and any 5v5 teamfight is too caotic for you to pay attention to everyone's mana pool by clicking, while being able to notice a hero is OOM with a glance is very easy. I'm not saying it should be visible, I'm just saying that's how you'd do those kind of effects where you can fake and bait.
Honestly I can't really decide about the mana thing because really the only reason we think the way we do is because "that's how it's always been".
It would make more sense if it was either visible in the bar, or not even visible when you click the hero. I mean why can't you see enemy cool-downs when you click the hero?
It's all legacy stuff with no real answer because it's all kind of wrong.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On June 11 2013 01:46 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 01:39 Firebolt145 wrote:
In the few seconds you lost vision of him, his mana bar dropped from full to 50% Torrent is 1.6 second delay I believe. If you lose vision for long enough for him to get the animation off its almost certainly long enough for the mana loss to not be sufficient warning. TBH I think Sand King might be affected more since his ulti costs an un-missable amount of mana and sometimes the animation isn't too clear (if you only get a brief glimpse of him). However, we just named essentially the only 2 skills in all of dota that can matter. I still agree that mana bars are probably not a good idea, I just don't agree that "they clue you in to opponents casting spells" when they really don't. E: I suppose alchemist stun is kinda a thing as well but that plays sound and has an animation while charging so you should know what's up. Actually, this would seriously affect slark purge though (unless you disguise the mana cost in his pounce). I Didn't think of that 
Everything else aside, it would be sufficient if you were QoP or any other hero with a mobility skill. It definitely does matter.
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United States47024 Posts
Speaking of mana costs (but now a completely different issue because this topic is reaching its limit), new trick for DotA 2 I discovered recently:
Many spells in DotA 2 upgrade their effects on-the-fly if you rank them up after they are cast but before their effects are completed. Projectile spells that are in flight only check the corresponding spell rank when they land, DoTs upgrade their damage to the new rank, and channeled spells check the rank of the spell's effect when the channel completes.
Because of this, you can save a little bit of mana here and there in cases that I don't believe you could in DotA 1. For example:
1) Juggernaut healing ward automatically upgrades to the newest rank when you gain a rank in the skill. You have to leave and re-enter the ward area to get the new buff (otherwise it retains the lower rank healing ward buff on you), but you can save something like 20-40 mana this way casting a rank 1 healing ward and then upgrading it with a saved skill point.
2) Windrunner can start channeling Powershot, rank up the skill, and then release the Powershot to have the mana cost of the lower rank Powershot with the damage of the higher rank Powershot.
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On June 11 2013 01:49 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 01:44 teapoted wrote:On June 11 2013 01:39 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 11 2013 00:14 Sn0_Man wrote:On June 11 2013 00:01 Firebolt145 wrote:
Kunkka can cast Torrent when he's out of vision range before walking in to avoid you seeing his cast animation. If his blue bar were to suddenly drop, there's no way you can hide that.
Whatever else you guys suggest, enemy mana bars are simply too big of a change. I already said, I'm not advocating for this particular change or any other, but I don't agree with what you are saying here. A) Enemy mana bars never felt dumb or "too big a change". I never saw "oh his mana dropped he must have cast a spell" in HoN. People still clue off of animations. Yes, there was a lot of "Oh hes oom we can fight" which in Dota is only available through clicking on somebody. Yes, I think that clicking on somebody like that raises the "skill cap" and is probably a good thing. B) It is still true that if you can see his mana drop you can see the cast animation. "Oh he cast it out of vision range" so then you didn't see the mana drop either. I'm gonna go with people good enough to notice will also notice a kunkka charging at them full steam, and people bad enough to let a kunkka charge at them full steam who was recently out of vision won't even notice the mana drop. I mean, we are talking like a half second window to notice, decide, and get out. And that is if the kunkka is masterful at casting juuuuust out of vision range. I know I have enough issues dodging torrents that are telegraphed and everything. Eh? Let's imagine a situation where you're 1v1ing Kunkka mid. You walk to the creep wave in the middle of the river and lose vision of his high ground for a split second. He chooses that time to Torrent so you don't see his animation. You then walk back up to your high ground (thus regaining vision of him) as he walks forward to hit a creep. Situation 1) There is no mana bar. You have no idea he casted Torrent and do not react. Situation 2) There is a mana bar. In the few seconds you lost vision of him, his mana bar dropped from full to 50%. You dodge. It is a big deal. This is easily fixed by just locking visible mana from the enemy on delayed spells until the spell goes off. I think that would be an awkward solution. Torrent goes off immediatly, it just has a delayed effect. You would have to manually set up a timer for each spell, and is technically giving false information and counter intuitive. His mana will suddenly drop for no reason. There are plenty of other examples as well, when fighting a Storm, knowing exactly how much mana he has at all time is a big deal, and any 5v5 teamfight is too caotic for you to pay attention to everyone's mana pool by clicking, while being able to notice a hero is OOM with a glance is very easy.
Its definitely awkward, and it seems like a worse solution that misleads more people and is generally unintuitive, particularly for new players, than the current implementation. You really get used to the "no enemy mana" thing after a few game. I don't think its a big deal.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
On June 11 2013 01:53 TheYango wrote:
Speaking of mana costs (but now a completely different issue because this topic is reaching its limit), new trick for DotA 2 I discovered recently:
Many spells in DotA 2 upgrade their effects on-the-fly if you rank them up after they are cast but before their effects are completed. Projectile spells that are in flight only check the corresponding spell rank when they land, DoTs upgrade their damage to the new rank, and channeled spells check the rank of the spell's effect when the channel completes.
Because of this, you can save a little bit of mana here and there in cases that I don't believe you could in DotA 1. For example:
1) Juggernaut healing ward automatically upgrades to the newest rank when you gain a rank in the skill. You have to leave and re-enter the ward area to get the new buff (otherwise it retains the lower rank healing ward buff on you), but you can save something like 20-40 mana this way casting a rank 1 healing ward and then upgrading it with a saved skill point.
2) Windrunner can start channeling Powershot, rank up the skill, and then release the Powershot to have the mana cost of the lower rank Powershot with the damage of the higher rank Powershot.
I always suspected this but never had the time/effort to test it.
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United States47024 Posts
It was known to affect DoTs, I only recently confirmed that it actually works with projectiles in flight.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
Anyway, I've had enough of this mana bar discussion.
Time to watch Alliance go through a gauntlet of z-tier European teams in bo1's and if they lose they don't go to the EMS final.
TI level excitement.
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Hmm, seems like a lot of effort for limited (and only one time) gain.
Especially since a decent amount of the spells you would want to do that with benefit from cooldown reductions at higher levels.
Obviously it needs to be fixed though 
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
Not completely related but on the level up thing bulldog's constantly been doing that "save level-up your bear to reset the hit-counter" and you can teleport him back since the bounty went up.
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do players see the frost armor sign from lich aswell or is it only for observers?
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On June 11 2013 02:00 teddyoojo wrote:
do players see the frost armor sign from lich aswell or is it only for observers?
Players see it (on both sides)
PS: "Ice Armor" or whatever it is that the blue ogre casts has very similar effects to lich's frost armor but it only tinges the hero blue instead of a shield over the hero's head.
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Is there a complete list for all the tournaments in 2013 with their respective prize pools?
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
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Thanks for both lists. Both are just very spread out with their information. Oh well.
Also this just happend:
+ Show Spoiler +
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lol just realized
rat in the dark is that team that used to play with nicks like seppo42 seppo78 seppoXX etc during War3 era? They used to make some strange picks
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Alright, invoker got stealth nerfed in 6.78 with the drums cost change and ESPECIALLY the XP for levels 11 and 12 change.
Specifically, level 11 hits 500 xp sooner (which is a huge-ass buff to ulti dependant heroes and doesn't do too much for invoker unless you are specifically Q-E double-spirits with a safety wex point, since 11 = 4q 1w 4e 2invoke) but level 12 hits 500xp LATER than ever before which is huge because 12 is when invoker gets level 3 invoke.
Admittedly force staff got like 100g cheaper, so drums + force is now 50g cheaper if you go that route, AND bottle crow got nerfed, but still. Thoughts on ways to bring him back as at least a situational pick?
Personally, (and i'm no invoker expert here), I feel like maybe just reverting the base damage change would be a nice start. It isn't like QW invoker doesn't still have awful base damage with the nerf reverted.
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7 games win streak, 5 games losing streak, getting against 5-man stacks all the fucking time gg volvo :V
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they put in solo que for you a while ago
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NmyBebF.jpg)
