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United Kingdom24425 Posts
Another problem here is that people can debate what's the ideal item build with perfect information all they want. If you're in a game, you might think that with the information you have that the opponent is going to be more aggressive. Or you want to stop them from attacking so having items to fight will do that. Or the farm speed isn't worth the risk and not necessary to win the game if you survive past X.
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If the drums lets you survive a few ganks or get a few kills that you wouldn't have gotten (from HP that you wouldn't have had or the extra move speed), it's better to go drums.
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United States19229 Posts
Sure, drums is a dead end, but most carries have an early mid game item anyway that they replace later. In the big picture it'll benefit you more as you don't use all 6 slots throughout the entire game as PL. You could say that not utilizing your slots is inefficient. As a carry you can't expect NOT to fight sometime. If the other team overextends due to your split pushing you want to take that fight.
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Is this the thread where I would ask why pro teams don't pick Tiny anymore?
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On May 28 2013 06:16 MiX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 05:42 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:31 SKC wrote:On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. If you are talking about that particular game, what counted the most was what could give PL the best fighting ability by the time LGD was pushing mid into their base. And Drums was good at that point, because he wasn't 6 slotted. After they survived the pushes, PL just needed a single more item and the game was over. I think Alliance could have gotten away with trading top for middle in the situation where Loda was not ready to fight, but arguing how that fight would have played out in theory is rather pointless. On May 28 2013 05:36 MiX wrote:On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. Do you not understand how little 862 gold is to a PL by the time he actually has to sell his drums? We're talking about an optimal build; It doesn't matter how little gold it is. If I could save one gold that would be more optimal. So basically you stick your head in the ground while 5 people just gave you specific, logical reasons why drums was a far better choice in that situation. In fact, drums are better in pretty much every situation because the increased mana pool allows you to farm just as well as a yasha. Pretty much the only situation yasha is better is where PL can free farm for 40 minutes until he is max slotted, which never happens so its pointless to discuss.
Your acknowledgement that yasha would indeed farm faster than drum is all I was saying. Whether this is worthwhile is a completely different matter that almost everyone agrees isn't worth the risk.
If you assume that I think everyone should build yasha first on PL because it farms faster then you're missing the point. Comeh delivers 
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but midas->bot->radiance is even faster!
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Alright, lets talk about Yasha vs Drums and farm speed and efficiency with PL for a bit here - I have a decent amount of experience with the hero, so I feel pretty comfortable with this discussion.
TL;DR Yasha is a better choice for farming over drums for a few particular reasons, but isn't always the proper decision depending on your reliance to split pushing vs teamfighting.
PL is a fairly unique hero in how he operates in farming versus someone like antimage, or gyrocopter. He operates in two particular mediums - essentially through bouncing between camps as often as possible, and through hitting a lane to split push it (to go back to farming in the jungle. Because of his ability for his illusions to split push a lane up until tower range, and even do damage on a tower, he doesn't necessarily need to be at a lane to cause split push (which is what essentially makes him the most deadly lategame splitpush hero in the game). What he lacks in farm speed, however, is due to his immobility - movement speed and mobility are just as important in total gpm and split pushing as creep clearing ability. PL lacks a large mobility ability like blink, and he has mediocre creep clearing ability (through his illusions, but makes up with that because with levels it gets more potent, and because they can split push on their own, thus boosting his farming power).
So essentially, what really gives PL a huge amount of ability to farm, more so than a lot of heroes, is being able to have a decent amount of illusions up overall. He will generally have a full HP pool, and despite his low STR gain, that HP pool should stay near full because of tanking with illusions, or just because of how strong tranquils is on this hero - this HP pool will be fine when farming neutrals and creeps, but isn't really sufficient for teamfighting early. Long story short, that means for farming, movement speed and attack speed (well, besides a radiance) are the most important statistic for farming on PL. Wait, why? Because PL's illusions have a relatively low timespan for them being up - which means you need to have these illusions move as fast as possible and attack as fast as possible, and thus yasha is a brilliant item for maintaining this. It solves his issue from bouncing camp to camp, and it allows him to split push faster as well.
Most importantly, is that a lot of pros value having the ability to build into a mantastyle quickly on PL rather than a heart (which is now considered a 3rd item rather than 2nd for PL) - this is because they value the midgame splitpush strength this item gives, and because it gives a great midgame DPS boost (since Diffusal level 2 is often picked up on the hero). Getting yasha over drums essentially means you'll have the manta up 2000 gold sooner, and even sooner than that because you will be farming faster rather than drums. Its really a plan to hit the midgame and hit a splitpushing state of the game far quicker than a build revolving drums and a heart, but it shoots to avoid teamfighting much sooner (even if you will lose all your t2's in the process, which Alliance showed willing to do in one of their games, even though the build was different).
Drums is a great item if you WANT and PLAN to fight or face a lot of lane opposition on the PL (if they are going to constantly try to contest the PL lane or throw teamfights). The item isn't as good for farming, as it gives less attack speed, less movement speed, and while the 153 hp it gives is certainly nice for teamfighting on the main hero, but it doesn't boost farming as much as you think (153 hp is lost a bit when its amplified by 350% bonus damage). The drum charges are really what makes it so strong during teamfight, as it boosts mobility so greatly and allows you to run around the fight essentially unopposed. I've had a lot of success contesting teamfights with this item, and thats how it should be used. To fight.
So while drums are really solid, Yasha is a very smooth option and a better one for boosting farming on PL, and for approaching a splitgame state of the game much quicker through a faster manta style.
Also, I think Loda is full of shit. He played really solid dota in G1, but he's full of shit.
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On May 28 2013 06:49 Kupon3ss wrote:
but midas->bot->radiance is even faster!
Wouldn't midas->rad->bot be faster?
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United States19229 Posts
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On May 28 2013 06:44 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 06:16 MiX wrote:On May 28 2013 05:42 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:31 SKC wrote:On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. If you are talking about that particular game, what counted the most was what could give PL the best fighting ability by the time LGD was pushing mid into their base. And Drums was good at that point, because he wasn't 6 slotted. After they survived the pushes, PL just needed a single more item and the game was over. I think Alliance could have gotten away with trading top for middle in the situation where Loda was not ready to fight, but arguing how that fight would have played out in theory is rather pointless. On May 28 2013 05:36 MiX wrote:On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. Do you not understand how little 862 gold is to a PL by the time he actually has to sell his drums? We're talking about an optimal build; It doesn't matter how little gold it is. If I could save one gold that would be more optimal. So basically you stick your head in the ground while 5 people just gave you specific, logical reasons why drums was a far better choice in that situation. In fact, drums are better in pretty much every situation because the increased mana pool allows you to farm just as well as a yasha. Pretty much the only situation yasha is better is where PL can free farm for 40 minutes until he is max slotted, which never happens so its pointless to discuss. Your acknowledgement that yasha would indeed farm faster than drum is all I was saying. Whether this is worthwhile is a completely different matter that almost everyone agrees isn't worth the risk. If you assume that I think everyone should build yasha first on PL because it farms faster then you're missing the point. Comeh delivers
You should reread what I wrote because that is the opposite of what I said. Here I'll bold it for you.
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On May 28 2013 07:04 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 06:49 Kupon3ss wrote:
but midas->bot->radiance is even faster! Wouldn't midas->rad->bot be faster?
I am not sure which one is faster, but the person who bought the three items must have aimed to farm every single creep on the map rofl.
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On May 28 2013 07:18 MiX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 06:44 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 06:16 MiX wrote:On May 28 2013 05:42 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:31 SKC wrote:On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. If you are talking about that particular game, what counted the most was what could give PL the best fighting ability by the time LGD was pushing mid into their base. And Drums was good at that point, because he wasn't 6 slotted. After they survived the pushes, PL just needed a single more item and the game was over. I think Alliance could have gotten away with trading top for middle in the situation where Loda was not ready to fight, but arguing how that fight would have played out in theory is rather pointless. On May 28 2013 05:36 MiX wrote:On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. Do you not understand how little 862 gold is to a PL by the time he actually has to sell his drums? We're talking about an optimal build; It doesn't matter how little gold it is. If I could save one gold that would be more optimal. So basically you stick your head in the ground while 5 people just gave you specific, logical reasons why drums was a far better choice in that situation. In fact, drums are better in pretty much every situation because the increased mana pool allows you to farm just as well as a yasha. Pretty much the only situation yasha is better is where PL can free farm for 40 minutes until he is max slotted, which never happens so its pointless to discuss. Your acknowledgement that yasha would indeed farm faster than drum is all I was saying. Whether this is worthwhile is a completely different matter that almost everyone agrees isn't worth the risk. If you assume that I think everyone should build yasha first on PL because it farms faster then you're missing the point. Comeh delivers You should reread what I wrote because that is the opposite of what I said. Here I'll bold it for you.
Honestly, you can't really maintain a high mana pool very long with just drums, and you'll be left with too low of a mana pool to effectively escape or tp in to teamfight (you only increase your mana by 117 - thats the equvalent of less than one spirit lance or less than one lvl 2 dopplewalk). You want a soul ring if you want that, and that has its own set of issues.
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i love casts were active players give their opinion about certain items, skillbuilds and whatnot. so you can take soak up information and start thinking about the game or reflect on your own gameplay. thats why i love listening to winter and thats why i enjoyed aui as a cocaster or analyst.
winning g1 does not make you a perfect player loda -.-
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On May 28 2013 07:18 MiX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 06:44 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 06:16 MiX wrote:On May 28 2013 05:42 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:31 SKC wrote:On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. If you are talking about that particular game, what counted the most was what could give PL the best fighting ability by the time LGD was pushing mid into their base. And Drums was good at that point, because he wasn't 6 slotted. After they survived the pushes, PL just needed a single more item and the game was over. I think Alliance could have gotten away with trading top for middle in the situation where Loda was not ready to fight, but arguing how that fight would have played out in theory is rather pointless. On May 28 2013 05:36 MiX wrote:On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. Do you not understand how little 862 gold is to a PL by the time he actually has to sell his drums? We're talking about an optimal build; It doesn't matter how little gold it is. If I could save one gold that would be more optimal. So basically you stick your head in the ground while 5 people just gave you specific, logical reasons why drums was a far better choice in that situation. In fact, drums are better in pretty much every situation because the increased mana pool allows you to farm just as well as a yasha. Pretty much the only situation yasha is better is where PL can free farm for 40 minutes until he is max slotted, which never happens so its pointless to discuss. Your acknowledgement that yasha would indeed farm faster than drum is all I was saying. Whether this is worthwhile is a completely different matter that almost everyone agrees isn't worth the risk. If you assume that I think everyone should build yasha first on PL because it farms faster then you're missing the point. Comeh delivers You should reread what I wrote because that is the opposite of what I said. Here I'll bold it for you.
By including pretty much you imply that there is some situation that your statement is not true for. Therefore I concluded that you believe yasha is stronger than drums in some situation, although by your statements it is incredibly rare (which I wouldn't disagree with).
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On May 28 2013 07:54 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
i love casts were active players give their opinion about certain items, skillbuilds and whatnot. so you can take soak up information and start thinking about the game or reflect on your own gameplay. thats why i love listening to winter and thats why i enjoyed aui as a cocaster or analyst.
winning g1 does not make you a perfect player loda -.- He never said he was perfect. I don't understand how anyone here can really think it's unjustified for a player to make comments on someone being as critical as Aui was.
You can believe that it's fine for the cast, you can think it's interesting an educational, you can think it's entertaining. Whatever. It's still also perfectly justified to be annoyed at the sheer quantity of complaints in his direction during a tournament where they didn't make a single mistake that lost them a game.
I like Aui as a caster. But I think he has much more to improve as a caster than Loda has to improve as a phantom lancer player. Because I shouldn't be confused whether I'm watching a guide on how to play a hero or a major Dota tournament.
~
Anyway. http://en.dota2.raidcall-emsone.com/#SeasonRankings
Looks like the next seasons of EMS will have a very exciting finals...
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It's only justified to be annoyed at it if you actually take time to watch it. He didn't care about the content of the cast, he didn't accept being critized by Aui at all.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On May 28 2013 08:43 SKC wrote:
It's only justified to be annoyed at it if you actually take time to watch it. How exactly would that change his opinion? If he watched it now he'd probably think it was even worse than what he was told.He didn't care about the content of the cast, he didn't accept being critized by Aui at all. It's not really about the content anyway. It's about hammering on about every slight mistake during a tournament where, as I already said, they made no game changing mistakes. They never dropped a game.
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On May 28 2013 08:44 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 08:43 SKC wrote:
It's only justified to be annoyed at it if you actually take time to watch it. How exactly would that change his opinion? If he watched it now he'd probably think it was even worse than what he was told.
Because he has no idea what Aui said or how he said it? The only way he can say that is if he doesn't accept receiving critics at all from any other pro. And that's exactly what he said in a twit.
He doesn't know if Aui hammered on every single mistake he did during the tournament. Or at least that's not even what he complained about.
Fear did the exact same thing in his stream some time later btw. Noone complained about that, but by Loda's reasoning it should be the same.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
So? What he's assuming by the way he's talking is exactly what happened.
And fear wasn't on a stream with 40,000 people, not really relevant.
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"And tbh I only know of your cast through others, so It may not be that bad! But my honor can only stand flame from fans. Not pros"
Aui didn't flame him. Not at all. Unless you, and him, think saying he could have done things better is flaming. In which case I believe every single caster is a flamer, since they have at least once said something a team did is a mistake. He even admited the cast may not be that bad, so it wasn't anything particular so that cast.
He has something personal against Aui and doesn't accept critics from him. It's not about the content, if it was, he had to watch it.
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EPT
