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On May 28 2013 04:42 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 04:37 r.Evo wrote:On May 28 2013 04:30 SilverStar wrote:On May 28 2013 04:23 Klonere wrote:Loda has ego issues, I for one and shocked and appalled, calling out Aui on his light criticism of Loda's PL play context. this disaster of a timeline: https://twitter.com/LodaBergi guess casters only exist to jerk off players If anyone has issues it's you with your post. Obviously they don't have to jerk off players, so if Loda thinks Auis casting is biased one way or another it's his own right to call him out. No need for you to reddit drama jerk a tear here. To be fair the amount of "Spectre should really build an orb of venom // skadi" in the LGD game for example got really annoying. Aui's "critique" of Lodas PL was pretty much "he did well but his farming wasn't optimized" which, in a vacuum, is a statement that's always true. That's not something to make a big deal out of, someone like Loda should be smart enough to not create a big fuss based on hearsay. I think the real issue is that Aui didn't qualify why he thought Loda's build wasn't optimized. Aui made a claim during the cast that he could have farmed faster than Loda did and he could have because Aui opens Yasha instead of drums. If you aren't going to fight (which loda never did) then yasha farms faster than drums and he could have been an item ahead since he wouldn't have wasted all that gold on drums. Aui never explained this during the cast so you could interpret his statement as I farm better than Loda or something even though he never intended such a thing.
He did mention going Yasha before Diffusal and farming faster because of it I think, and a lot of it was always about using the illusiong more effectively to kill that top rax they were sieging, which I think Loda could have done even if it really didn't matter much. Either way, at least watch the cast before shittalking someone.
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On May 28 2013 04:47 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 04:42 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 04:37 r.Evo wrote:On May 28 2013 04:30 SilverStar wrote:On May 28 2013 04:23 Klonere wrote:Loda has ego issues, I for one and shocked and appalled, calling out Aui on his light criticism of Loda's PL play context. this disaster of a timeline: https://twitter.com/LodaBergi guess casters only exist to jerk off players If anyone has issues it's you with your post. Obviously they don't have to jerk off players, so if Loda thinks Auis casting is biased one way or another it's his own right to call him out. No need for you to reddit drama jerk a tear here. To be fair the amount of "Spectre should really build an orb of venom // skadi" in the LGD game for example got really annoying. Aui's "critique" of Lodas PL was pretty much "he did well but his farming wasn't optimized" which, in a vacuum, is a statement that's always true. That's not something to make a big deal out of, someone like Loda should be smart enough to not create a big fuss based on hearsay. I think the real issue is that Aui didn't qualify why he thought Loda's build wasn't optimized. Aui made a claim during the cast that he could have farmed faster than Loda did and he could have because Aui opens Yasha instead of drums. If you aren't going to fight (which loda never did) then yasha farms faster than drums and he could have been an item ahead since he wouldn't have wasted all that gold on drums. Aui never explained this during the cast so you could interpret his statement as I farm better than Loda or something even though he never intended such a thing. He did mention going Yasha before Diffusal and farming faster because of it I think, and a lot of it was always about using the illusiong more effectively to kill that top rax they were sieging, which I think Loda could have done even if it really didn't matter much. Either way, at least watch the cast before shittalking someone.
Skipping drum entirely in favor of yasha is the optimization. You don't need the drum if you aren't going to fight, although I could see an argument that going drum makes the enemy less willing to engage you in the first place.
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drums is infinitely better than yasha in situations like that
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You pretty much always want drums, the stats are too cost-efficient to skip on PL and the attack speed / movespeed helps a lot farming the jungle quicker. Yasha is a much better choice for split push / farm, diffusal is the choice only if you expect you'll need/want to fight in the next few minutes.
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Skipping Drums and going straight for Diffusal + Yasha also means you are even more squishy. You also has less mana to spam dopplewalk to farm (which was another small critiscism from Aui IIRC, he maxed justapose first). It's not like you will need the slot anyway, you ussually win the game after you get the heart, and you still have room for a Bfly. Specially with a fast Travels build.
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The main reason to buy drums in such a scenario should be the ability to use the active if you want to. Besides that the item isn't nearly as cost-efficient as people make it out to be, you're paying 1725 gold for ~2140 gold worth of stats. That's cool but not great. However, on top of that you get the aura+active. That is what drives it over the edge of why it's such a great item.
When comparing drums to e.g. a casual ultimate orb in such a free farm scenario you're paying for the insurance of being able to use the drums active.
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the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights
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On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights
In a six slot scenario you are going to have a manta and not a drums though. The drums is better, but it is dead end so if you can skip it you should.
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if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL?
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I think this tweeter bull crap hitting Aui just before playing a match against VP is affecting him mentally. I hope it really doesn't but getting called out just before a professional match must be hard.
Twitch chat being the same old twitch chat, kinda sad honestly that fans have to take sides and that more loyal fans are spreading the hate.
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On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL?
That isn't the same situation. You said:
On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights
So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead.
The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils.
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On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils.
If you are talking about that particular game, what counted the most was what could give PL the best fighting ability by the time LGD was pushing mid into their base. And Drums was good at that point, because he wasn't 6 slotted. After they survived the pushes, PL just needed a single more item and the game was over.
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On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils.
Do you not understand how little 862 gold is to a PL by the time he actually has to sell his drums?
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On May 28 2013 05:31 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. If you are talking about that particular game, what counted the most was what could give PL the best fighting ability by the time LGD was pushing mid into their base. And Drums was good at that point, because he wasn't 6 slotted. After they survived the pushes, PL just needed a single more item and the game was over.
I think Alliance could have gotten away with trading top for middle in the situation where Loda was not ready to fight, but arguing how that fight would have played out in theory is rather pointless.
On May 28 2013 05:36 MiX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. Do you not understand how little 862 gold is to a PL by the time he actually has to sell his drums?
We're talking about an optimal build; It doesn't matter how little gold it is. If I could save one gold that would be more optimal. I also believe that you'd farm faster with yasha than drums, although that claim is more difficult to prove and I'm not 100% sure it is true. There is some advantage beyond saving some gold.
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the logic is inherently flawed, yasha vs drums farming comes down to slightly tankier illusions vs slightly more illusions, which in the end is better/worse mostly depending on RNG and essentially the same.
You're talking about "an optimal build", what does that mean? items have tradeoffs and affects on gameplay instead of existing in a vaccum. Saying that ur saving 800 gold while pursuing an "optimal build" is no different than skipping tranq/treads for bots for a similarly "optimal build" if you're doing nothing but afk farm the way you seem to be implying
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On May 28 2013 05:59 Kupon3ss wrote:
the logic is inherently flawed, yasha vs drums farming comes down to slightly tankier illusions vs slightly more illusions, which in the end is better/worse mostly depending on RNG and essentially the same.
You're talking about "an optimal build", what does that mean? items have tradeoffs and affects on gameplay instead of existing in a vaccum. Saying that ur saving 800 gold while pursuing an "optimal build" is no different than skipping tranq/treads for bots for a similarly "optimal build" if you're doing nothing but afk farm the way you seem to be implying
Mobility is the most important stat for farming typically which is why I think yasha is superior.
The optimal build is the one that would farm the fastest. You have to decide how greedy you're able to play given the game state and which optimizations you can get away with. I don't think yasha instead of drum is the right choice for PL in most games, but I think it would have been valid in that particular game. I will admit that it is very easy to say these things in hindsight or with all vision during the game though. The safe play in the high stakes game has merits of its own.
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On May 28 2013 06:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 05:59 Kupon3ss wrote:
the logic is inherently flawed, yasha vs drums farming comes down to slightly tankier illusions vs slightly more illusions, which in the end is better/worse mostly depending on RNG and essentially the same.
You're talking about "an optimal build", what does that mean? items have tradeoffs and affects on gameplay instead of existing in a vaccum. Saying that ur saving 800 gold while pursuing an "optimal build" is no different than skipping tranq/treads for bots for a similarly "optimal build" if you're doing nothing but afk farm the way you seem to be implying
Mobility is the most important stat for farming typically which is why I think yasha is superior. The optimal build is the one that would farm the fastest. You have to decide how greedy you're able to play given the game state and which optimizations you can get away with. I don't think yasha instead of drum is the right choice for PL in most games, but I think it would have been valid in that particular game. I will admit that it is very easy to say these things in hindsight or with all vision during the game though. The safe play in the high stakes game has merits of its own.
You go both Yasha and Drums if all you want is farm, which is even more mobility. The fact that you sell it for your last item is irrelevant 99% of the time, because it is both very little money at the time, which the faster farm and fighting ability may even have covered already, and because you should already have won the game at that point.
You said talking about what could have happened in a specific fight is useless, but this kind of argument also is. The item progression will change more than meager 800g 50mins in.
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On May 28 2013 05:42 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 05:31 SKC wrote:On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. If you are talking about that particular game, what counted the most was what could give PL the best fighting ability by the time LGD was pushing mid into their base. And Drums was good at that point, because he wasn't 6 slotted. After they survived the pushes, PL just needed a single more item and the game was over. I think Alliance could have gotten away with trading top for middle in the situation where Loda was not ready to fight, but arguing how that fight would have played out in theory is rather pointless. Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 05:36 MiX wrote:On May 28 2013 05:28 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On May 28 2013 05:23 Kupon3ss wrote:
if ur somehow getting 6 slotted on PL without already having won...
the ideal 6 sloted pl also has bots, so should we forgo treads/tranq because its not part of 6slotPL? That isn't the same situation. You said: On May 28 2013 05:17 Kupon3ss wrote:
the thing is that having drums and having yasha yields essentially the same increase in farm speed while one makes u useful in early-midgame fights So they're the same item as long as I'm not getting into teamfights. This means that if I'm not getting into teamfights then I can skip drums and save 862 gold. Alliance is split pushing because they can't win a teamfight so logically he could have skipped drum for yasha and come out further ahead. The same isn't true for boots because Loda would have been crippled by darkseer without tranquils. Do you not understand how little 862 gold is to a PL by the time he actually has to sell his drums? We're talking about an optimal build; It doesn't matter how little gold it is. If I could save one gold that would be more optimal.
So basically you stick your head in the ground while 5 people just gave you specific, logical reasons why drums was a far better choice in that situation. In fact, drums are better in pretty much every situation because the increased mana pool allows you to farm just as well as a yasha. Pretty much the only situation yasha is better is where PL can free farm for 40 minutes until he is max slotted, which never happens so its pointless to discuss.
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United States47024 Posts
Even if I were just blind farming, I'd get 2 Blades of Alacrity over finishing Yasha probably.
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EPT
