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On April 07 2013 06:22 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:11 Numy wrote:
What makes dota great is that you can do a whole host of strategies to win the game. Singling out a turtle strat and saying it requires less skill/is boring to watch thus it should be removed from the game is pure whine. Bite the bullet. There have already been massive changes so that late game comes way sooner than it used to. I don't want dota to become a come that only has one style of play and finishes within 30 minutes. We really should learn what happens in other games. In HotS, the game is so much better than WoL because aggressive strategies are persistent. There is constant action everywhere at once, right from the start. In WoL with infestor/BL, there was no action until the pre-hive timing to kill zerg before he gets the invincible army together. People stopped watching the game because it was so boring. Strategies that force no action for the first 20 minutes of the game are not fun to watch. What's the point of even wasting those 20 minutes when nothing is happening. Instead, strategies that require constant action are very entertaining to watch. And it definitely is easier to turtle out a game than to have an aggressive strategy, without any question. But that is not the point, the point is still that I want an entertaining game to watch. If the one strategy that takes away from the game and makes it boring must be nerfed to do so, then I would rather have it nerfed than to close the stream if I see a KotL/PL game and go play my own game or two (we all know how long those games can last...). Even when I watch VODs, I don't watch any KotL/PL games, I rarely watch any games with a PL. They are just not interesting.
Early game matters a lot, it isn't "nothing"
I would hate dota if you just started off at level 16 with 10,000 gold, but it sure would speed up the action.
I don't even think it's easier to turtle out a game, it's easier to be the team farming the whole map while the turtling team is stuck in their base.
Turtling is a strategy that you use when you cannot win at a specific time, but can win later. Why force people to just lose when they could win if they use strategy and turtle.
An average dota game should take 30-60 minutes, and sometimes even longer. Short games in dota occur when one team gets stomped. In starcraft 15-30 minute games are common, the game just ends faster sometimes.
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On April 07 2013 05:59 Yoshi- wrote:
I love how people use the word "Unique" for things that aren't unique at all.
Or at least I highly doubt that they really get 1 Million per day
it is quite weird isnt it? we have 3 millions unique players per month and to have 1/3 of them going to this site for betting/trading is unbelievable. Though, I think considering the streams' viewer counts, something around 200k or even 500k unique user are 'reachable' given how appealing such betting system to competitive dota scene. Personally i never care about items in game until i actually start betting them and trading around. Making the game more interesting and the items more valuable.
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On April 07 2013 06:19 BeanerBurrito wrote:
First anti mage, then morphling, now pl
Just because something is good and people pick it, doesn't make it op. At least wait awhile before starting all the "nerf now it's too op"
That's really not true. PL doesn't have a better than average win rate, PL isn't picked too often and is rarely banned, PL was never the popular hero that AM, Morph or Naga were. You are thinking of Naix or Gyro.
People hate PL because they hate PL, not because people pick it too often. Whether that's justified or not is a diferent issue, but he really doesn't fall in the same category as those other heroes. Personally I would prefer he ended up being like Medusa, it's really a hero I wouldn't miss and I ussually dislike games with PL. So yeah, I wouldn't mind him getting nerfed, but that doesn't mean I think he is OP.
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On April 07 2013 06:28 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:19 BeanerBurrito wrote:
First anti mage, then morphling, now pl
Just because something is good and people pick it, doesn't make it op. At least wait awhile before starting all the "nerf now it's too op"
That's really not true. PL doesn't have a better than average win rate, PL isn't picked too often and is rarely banned, PL was never the popular hero that AM, Morph or Naga were. You are thinking of Naix or Gyro. People hate PL because they hate PL, not because people pick it too often. Whether that's justified or not is a diferent issue, but he really doesn't fall in the same category as those other heroes. Personally I would prefer he ended up being like Medusa, it's really a hero I wouldn't miss and I ussually dislike games with PL. So yeah, I wouldn't mind him getting nerfed, but that doesn't mean I think he is OP.
o.o if you don't think he's op, then why would you be ok nerfing him.
The way that people complained about anti mage, morphling, and now pl really is the same.
I very rarely if ever hear people complain about naix the same way they complain about pl, or am, or morph.
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On April 07 2013 06:25 BeanerBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:22 convention wrote:On April 07 2013 06:11 Numy wrote:
What makes dota great is that you can do a whole host of strategies to win the game. Singling out a turtle strat and saying it requires less skill/is boring to watch thus it should be removed from the game is pure whine. Bite the bullet. There have already been massive changes so that late game comes way sooner than it used to. I don't want dota to become a come that only has one style of play and finishes within 30 minutes. We really should learn what happens in other games. In HotS, the game is so much better than WoL because aggressive strategies are persistent. There is constant action everywhere at once, right from the start. In WoL with infestor/BL, there was no action until the pre-hive timing to kill zerg before he gets the invincible army together. People stopped watching the game because it was so boring. Strategies that force no action for the first 20 minutes of the game are not fun to watch. What's the point of even wasting those 20 minutes when nothing is happening. Instead, strategies that require constant action are very entertaining to watch. And it definitely is easier to turtle out a game than to have an aggressive strategy, without any question. But that is not the point, the point is still that I want an entertaining game to watch. If the one strategy that takes away from the game and makes it boring must be nerfed to do so, then I would rather have it nerfed than to close the stream if I see a KotL/PL game and go play my own game or two (we all know how long those games can last...). Even when I watch VODs, I don't watch any KotL/PL games, I rarely watch any games with a PL. They are just not interesting. Early game matters a lot, it isn't "nothing" I would hate dota if you just started off at level 16 with 10,000 gold, but it sure would speed up the action.
That's not what I'm saying. I am saying I want action starting at level 1 and 603 gold. When you have turtle strategies, it's really hard to force any action early, and because of that those games might as well be starting at level 16 and 10,000 gold, it's just you need to wait for 20 minutes of no action before that happens. Those are the exact games, because they ignore the early game. The early game doesn't matter at all if PL gets farmed up. In fact, it doesn't matter if you got a set of raxes down really early if PL gets farmed up enough to bleed away your base. That is what I hate about PL games, the beginning of the game doesn't matter outside of "did you win before PL got farmed?". The fun games are the ones where the question is "did you get enough done in the early game to compensate for your weaker lategame?". In those games, the answer isn't clear, and it depends on how you play later in the game as well. With PL, that doesn't matter. If you didn't win in the early game it doesn't matter anymore, you lost.
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United States47024 Posts
PL isn't the only carry you can enable with KotL though. The reason you see them together is that KotL buffers PL's otherwise fairly mediocre/subpar laning in a very specific way that makes him capable of holding is own in lane far earlier than would be possible with other supports (supplying him mana for his strong but prohibitively costly nuke). The other aspects of KotL that stall games out are just as "boring" with other carries with split-pushing ability (Anti-mage, Void, Morphling, etc.).
Even if you dislike PL+KotL, PL is clearly not the component of the pair that needs to get nerfed. Especially since KotL is already a very high pick/ban priority with or without PL.
PL actually has very high early fighting capability compared to other carries right now. His fighting ability comes on line earlier than Anti-mage and Void (has decent fighting presence with 1-2 items rather than the 2-3 necessary for AM or Void). PL+KotL strategies are fundamentally "turtle-y" because KotL enables you to play that way, not because PL fundamentally plays that way.
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I feel like people forget how pl has always been there and how is he supposed to be played because he literally disappeared from the pub and comp scene for a long (long) period of time. The reason is due to trends/power creep etc but he was there when i started to watch some competitive dota (just some small tourneys compared to today's standard) so i have always loved the 'blue monkey'. He deserves that 4.2agi to get back in comp scene, and icefrog clearly stated his opinion from the latest patch that PL is fine.
In comparison people may ask why didn't medu and spec get the same treatment? Well firstly maybe icefrog has some special feeling for pl too and secondly medu/spec's late game is still insanely powerful, the definitive ultimate range and melee end game heroes respectively.
Also, allow me to show off my pretty spear collection for my pl <3
+ Show Spoiler +
I think i posted once before (way back in early 2012 i think) but this time i have more spears! Please hate less on my beloved pl please!
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On April 07 2013 06:31 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:25 BeanerBurrito wrote:On April 07 2013 06:22 convention wrote:On April 07 2013 06:11 Numy wrote:
What makes dota great is that you can do a whole host of strategies to win the game. Singling out a turtle strat and saying it requires less skill/is boring to watch thus it should be removed from the game is pure whine. Bite the bullet. There have already been massive changes so that late game comes way sooner than it used to. I don't want dota to become a come that only has one style of play and finishes within 30 minutes. We really should learn what happens in other games. In HotS, the game is so much better than WoL because aggressive strategies are persistent. There is constant action everywhere at once, right from the start. In WoL with infestor/BL, there was no action until the pre-hive timing to kill zerg before he gets the invincible army together. People stopped watching the game because it was so boring. Strategies that force no action for the first 20 minutes of the game are not fun to watch. What's the point of even wasting those 20 minutes when nothing is happening. Instead, strategies that require constant action are very entertaining to watch. And it definitely is easier to turtle out a game than to have an aggressive strategy, without any question. But that is not the point, the point is still that I want an entertaining game to watch. If the one strategy that takes away from the game and makes it boring must be nerfed to do so, then I would rather have it nerfed than to close the stream if I see a KotL/PL game and go play my own game or two (we all know how long those games can last...). Even when I watch VODs, I don't watch any KotL/PL games, I rarely watch any games with a PL. They are just not interesting. Early game matters a lot, it isn't "nothing" I would hate dota if you just started off at level 16 with 10,000 gold, but it sure would speed up the action. That's not what I'm saying. I am saying I want action starting at level 1 and 603 gold. When you have turtle strategies, it's really hard to force any action early, and because of that those games might as well be starting at level 16 and 10,000 gold, it's just you need to wait for 20 minutes of no action before that happens. Those are the exact games, because they ignore the early game. The early game doesn't matter at all if PL gets farmed up. In fact, it doesn't matter if you got a set of raxes down really early if PL gets farmed up enough to bleed away your base. That is what I hate about PL games, the beginning of the game doesn't matter outside of "did you win before PL got farmed?". The fun games are the ones where the question is "did you get enough done in the early game to compensate for your weaker lategame?". In those games, the answer isn't clear, and it depends on how you play later in the game as well. With PL, that doesn't matter. If you didn't win in the early game it doesn't matter anymore, you lost.
What 5 heroes do you mean when you say a turtle strategy?
If you have pl in one lane with another hero or two, it's just a dual lane or a trilane, there's nothing turtle about it. And the other two lanes will have different heroes, and they'll be 1v1 or 2v2, or 1v2. I don't think there is such thing as an early game turtle, it's just called laning.
If you let the opposing carry get farmed, and he beats you in the late game, it's because they executed their strategy and you didn't do enough throughout the whole game to stop them, and therefore you lose.
Pl isn't unkillable, you find the real pl with any aoe, and you can just focus him down like every other hero. Particularly it's easiest to find the real pl with detection and just force him to dopplewalk.
Get faceless void and let him farm up and chrono and kill the pl, you can't expect to win a game if you have no late game and you're vs pl, and in addition to that you let the game go until pl can get his items. If that happens then your team let it happen and you're supposed to lose.
Why change the game because a team wasn't prepared to counter the strategy of another team, and then lost because of that?
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On April 07 2013 06:31 BeanerBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:28 SKC wrote:On April 07 2013 06:19 BeanerBurrito wrote:
First anti mage, then morphling, now pl
Just because something is good and people pick it, doesn't make it op. At least wait awhile before starting all the "nerf now it's too op"
That's really not true. PL doesn't have a better than average win rate, PL isn't picked too often and is rarely banned, PL was never the popular hero that AM, Morph or Naga were. You are thinking of Naix or Gyro. People hate PL because they hate PL, not because people pick it too often. Whether that's justified or not is a diferent issue, but he really doesn't fall in the same category as those other heroes. Personally I would prefer he ended up being like Medusa, it's really a hero I wouldn't miss and I ussually dislike games with PL. So yeah, I wouldn't mind him getting nerfed, but that doesn't mean I think he is OP. o.o if you don't think he's op, then why would you be ok nerfing him. The way that people complained about anti mage, morphling, and now pl really is the same. I very rarely if ever hear people complain about naix the same way they complain about pl, or am, or morph.
Because I think the game would be fun if PL was at most a very situational hero? There will always be a certain group of heroes that are prefered by the pros. I think it's better if heroes that are fun to watch/play are better than boring heroes. Obviously that is a pretty personal opinion that changes from person to person, but I would say PL is on the list of boring heroes for more people than not.
Dota isn't an unfair game by it's nature, what matters most is making the game as enjoyable as possible. IceFrog didn't make the game shorter because he felt long games were OP. I also don't mean that he should be nerfed to the ground, sometimes it's fun to play heroes you ussually don't like, the same way sometime you feel like playing Sniper or even Tree.
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On April 07 2013 06:39 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:31 BeanerBurrito wrote:On April 07 2013 06:28 SKC wrote:On April 07 2013 06:19 BeanerBurrito wrote:
First anti mage, then morphling, now pl
Just because something is good and people pick it, doesn't make it op. At least wait awhile before starting all the "nerf now it's too op"
That's really not true. PL doesn't have a better than average win rate, PL isn't picked too often and is rarely banned, PL was never the popular hero that AM, Morph or Naga were. You are thinking of Naix or Gyro. People hate PL because they hate PL, not because people pick it too often. Whether that's justified or not is a diferent issue, but he really doesn't fall in the same category as those other heroes. Personally I would prefer he ended up being like Medusa, it's really a hero I wouldn't miss and I ussually dislike games with PL. So yeah, I wouldn't mind him getting nerfed, but that doesn't mean I think he is OP. o.o if you don't think he's op, then why would you be ok nerfing him. The way that people complained about anti mage, morphling, and now pl really is the same. I very rarely if ever hear people complain about naix the same way they complain about pl, or am, or morph. Because I think the game would be fun if PL was at most a very situational hero? There will always be a certain group of heroes that are prefered by the pros. I think it's better if heroes that are fun to watch/play are better than boring heroes. Obviously that is a pretty personal opinion that changes from person to person, but I would say PL is on the list of boring heroes for more people than not. Dota isn't an unfair game by it's nature, what matters most is making the game as enjoyable as possible. IceFrog didn't make the game shorter because he felt long games were OP. I also don't mean that he should be nerfed to the ground, sometimes it's fun to play heroes you ussually don't like, the same way sometime you feel like playing Sniper or even Tree.
But you said he wasn't picked too often and was rarely banned, isn't that the definition of a situational hero already?
I agree that a hero being boring is subjective, but because of that i don't think we should nerf or buff certain heroes because they are more or less fun to certain people.
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28103 Posts
On April 07 2013 06:33 BurningSera wrote:I feel like people forget how pl has always been there and how is he supposed to be played because he literally disappeared from the pub and comp scene for a long (long) period of time. The reason is due to trends/power creep etc but he was there when i started to watch some competitive dota (just some small tourneys compared to today's standard) so i have always loved the 'blue monkey'. He deserves that 4.2agi to get back in comp scene, and icefrog clearly stated his opinion from the latest patch that PL is fine. In comparison people may ask why didn't medu and spec get the same treatment? Well firstly maybe icefrog has some special feeling for pl too and secondly medu/spec's late game is still insanely powerful, the definitive ultimate range and melee end game heroes respectively. Also, allow me to show off my pretty spear collection for my pl <3 + Show Spoiler +I think i posted once before (way back in early 2012 i think) but this time i have more spears! Please hate less on my beloved pl please!
Nice collection, but isn't the one in the top right corner jugg's?
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United States47024 Posts
Honestly, people's opinions of PL are colored by the fact that we almost always see PL with KotL, and KotL turns that into a stall-fest, because why the hell not?
Like I said, PL's fighting ability comes together much earlier than other carries like AM and Void. He'd fundamentally be a much more active and less turtle-y hero than those two if he was played without KotL backup every time.
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On April 07 2013 06:42 BeanerBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:39 SKC wrote:On April 07 2013 06:31 BeanerBurrito wrote:On April 07 2013 06:28 SKC wrote:On April 07 2013 06:19 BeanerBurrito wrote:
First anti mage, then morphling, now pl
Just because something is good and people pick it, doesn't make it op. At least wait awhile before starting all the "nerf now it's too op"
That's really not true. PL doesn't have a better than average win rate, PL isn't picked too often and is rarely banned, PL was never the popular hero that AM, Morph or Naga were. You are thinking of Naix or Gyro. People hate PL because they hate PL, not because people pick it too often. Whether that's justified or not is a diferent issue, but he really doesn't fall in the same category as those other heroes. Personally I would prefer he ended up being like Medusa, it's really a hero I wouldn't miss and I ussually dislike games with PL. So yeah, I wouldn't mind him getting nerfed, but that doesn't mean I think he is OP. o.o if you don't think he's op, then why would you be ok nerfing him. The way that people complained about anti mage, morphling, and now pl really is the same. I very rarely if ever hear people complain about naix the same way they complain about pl, or am, or morph. Because I think the game would be fun if PL was at most a very situational hero? There will always be a certain group of heroes that are prefered by the pros. I think it's better if heroes that are fun to watch/play are better than boring heroes. Obviously that is a pretty personal opinion that changes from person to person, but I would say PL is on the list of boring heroes for more people than not. Dota isn't an unfair game by it's nature, what matters most is making the game as enjoyable as possible. IceFrog didn't make the game shorter because he felt long games were OP. I also don't mean that he should be nerfed to the ground, sometimes it's fun to play heroes you ussually don't like, the same way sometime you feel like playing Sniper or even Tree. But you said he wasn't picked too often and was rarely banned, isn't that the definition of a situational hero already? I agree that a hero being boring is subjective, but because of that i don't think we should nerf or buff certain heroes because they are more or less fun to certain people.
I said very situational, right now he is a good pick on almost every game that you gave Kotl. A very situational hero like now would something like a Sven, DK, Riki. You still see them ocasionally if the fit on a line-up but they are not common at all.
If it matters I also dislike Kotl and the gameplay he supports. I feel like maybe he is just too good on any kind of situation, while it would be better if he was just a very good hero for turtling. He is the most picked+banned hero recently IIRC, but that was before the recent nerfs. Let's see how that plays out.
What I really was against with my first post was that people can't believe people just don't like certain heroes. Not every case of people complaining about them is because they are too popular, PL certainly isn't too popular when compared to other carries.
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No one chooses am anymore, and his nerf was minor.
The heroes that pros choose tend to stay very similar, all up until the point where they aren't.
The entire dota metgame can be changed by one team winning a game with a hero who was almost never picked before, and then that hero becomes extremely popular. Case in point: Nyx assassin. All because Puppey chose him one game vs IG, nyx had gotten his buffs months before that, but no one chose him until after TI2.
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No one chooses AM anymore?
wat, which dota 2 games are you watching? He's still a very good situational pick, lol.
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AM is still picked fairly often
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On April 07 2013 06:59 Unleashing wrote:
No one chooses AM anymore?
wat, which dota 2 games are you watching? He's still a very good situational pick, lol.
What's the last professional match where am was picked or banned? And how many times has that happened in the past 3 months?
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United States47024 Posts
On April 07 2013 06:57 BeanerBurrito wrote:
No one chooses am anymore, and his nerf was minor.
The heroes that pros choose tend to stay very similar, all up until the point where they aren't.
The entire dota metgame can be changed by one team winning a game with a hero who was almost never picked before, and then that hero becomes extremely popular. Case in point: Nyx assassin. All because Puppey chose him one game vs IG, nyx had gotten his buffs months before that, but no one chose him until after TI2.
That's completely wrong.
Nyx buffs were in 6.75, TI2 was played on 6.74. Base HP regen to 2.5, Mana Burn buffed to 5xInt from 4xInt, and the new Spiked Carapace (the 6.74 one was only single instance of damage, while the 6.75 one is one instance from EVERY HERO).
6.74 Nyx would have stayed situational. 6.75 buffs are what made Nyx good and totally irrelevant to Puppey's use at TI2.
On April 07 2013 07:00 BeanerBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:59 Unleashing wrote:
No one chooses AM anymore?
wat, which dota 2 games are you watching? He's still a very good situational pick, lol. What's the last professional match where am was picked or banned? And how many times has that happened in the past 3 months?
Last time he was picked was literally 2 days ago in DK vs C.Stack?
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On April 07 2013 07:00 BeanerBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:59 Unleashing wrote:
No one chooses AM anymore?
wat, which dota 2 games are you watching? He's still a very good situational pick, lol. What's the last professional match where am was picked or banned? And how many times has that happened in the past 3 months?
LGD picked him the 2nd of april, DK twice the 30th of march, Chain stack vs iG the 28th, LGD vs LGD.int the 27th, NTH against empire the 27th too
and the list goes on.
Saying that he's not picked anymore shows that you really don't pay attention to the scene at all.
http://dota-academy.com/hero/19/ have fun.
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On April 07 2013 06:57 BeanerBurrito wrote:
No one chooses am anymore, and his nerf was minor.
The heroes that pros choose tend to stay very similar, all up until the point where they aren't.
The entire dota metgame can be changed by one team winning a game with a hero who was almost never picked before, and then that hero becomes extremely popular. Case in point: Nyx assassin. All because Puppey chose him one game vs IG, nyx had gotten his buffs months before that, but no one chose him until after TI2.
Wasn't the carapace buff was after TI2? That is probally the biggest reason Nyx is this good. He could still probaly be picked with the single target carapace, but he is a diferent beast now. AM's nerf was the introduction of other heroes.
Sven would be a better comparison to PL. People hated the games with all the stacking, plus the single crit cleaving everything and 1 shotting the team. Not exactly because the hero was OP. Some changes to how the game is played, changes to stacking, small nerf on both the hero and buriza, and suddenly he isn't a big deal.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gS41q1z.png)
