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On January 22 2013 08:18 Kishin2 wrote:
What makes a support hero good? Defining this for a carry hero is easy. Carries scale better into late game with farm, simple.
Any hero can technically be played as a support, but what makes X hero better than Y hero at supporting?
Support heroes provide something in the early to mid-game, where the carry tends to be weakest. That something can be anti-pushing power, pushing power, team fight presence, the ability to set up kills/gank, etc. Naga siren has a few of these aspects, so I don't see a particular reason why she can't be played as a support, really.
Saying Naga siren is a bad support because she would be better as a carry doesn't make sense to me.
I think what makes a support hero good, is how well they preform while having no items and while being at a lower level.
In a lane the job of the support hero is to harass, control the lane, and ensure that the other hero you are supporting gets all of the farm. Because of that the support hero will be left with very little money, and in addition to that the support hero uses their money more on wards and smaller items because they have so little money.
So in my mind, naga is a "bad" hero to play as a support, because there are many other heroes that are better than naga at functioning throughout the game with very little money and lower levels while still handling the duties that the support role comes with.
I think that a level 7 lion with very little items who has stun, hex, and finger of death, is much scarier no matter what phase of the game you are in than a level 7 naga who has very little items.
So like you said, a carry is a hero who scales very well and is strong in the late game, so a support is a hero who scales very quickly and reaches it's peak early in the game with much less required farm to be effective.
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On January 22 2013 08:08 Andr3 wrote:
The reason it worked for NTH is because A) they're a superior team, B) it's a specific kind of thing. Naga siren can, and seems to work in some cases a support but it looks to be something you could do once in a while to throw off the enemy team...like a cheese in SC2.
If you can utilize her illusions to the max, stacking, denying runes&scouting she seems to be alright.
I've always wanted to see a support kunkka though, he can harass early on pretty well and his spells are all about teamfight.(huehue)
One good thing about semicarry/carry supports is that they scale into the endgame. It's still funny to see NTH play those though, but it's all good because if anything dota is very flexible when it comes to heroes and what can they perform..quite fun to see.
carry supports really don't scale that well at all actually... You need items, and as 5th position you might have maybe 1 item but you'll still die insanely fast because the best survivability items that late into the game is gonna be ghost sceptor/force staff and of course, having range. If you farm then you're just taking farm away from your carries and not being active on the map. I'd imagine naga illusions are quite useless in the late game.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 22 2013 08:10 BeanerBurrito wrote:
That's what i hate about dota theorycrafting, there are so many situations where you could say "well it's situational".
But i think you would agree it would be much more efficient for that carry naga to be getting something like a diffusal or a radiance, and to let his support kotl buy the mek and arcane boots, at least for 99/100 games
Naga needs a survivability item first. Vanguard sucks, Heart and Linken are good but are expensive and often the game doesn't allow you to farm that long. Comparing it to Diffusal is irrelevant because you're not going to rush out a Diffusal with no survivability item, and Radi's only good in the narrow situation where there actually is enough space for you to farm it out.
Mek is a very good survivability item for her to buy as her first major item.
I'm not so much arguing for the idea of Naga as a support (worthless to theorycraft it without seeing it in a few games), but your example of Mek as a support item is wrong in a large number of cases. Naga's also not the only carry to use Mek as their early go-to defensive item either.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Naga has a couple abilties which in theory can make her a strong support.(think 4th or 5th)
A disables that goes through bkb and can be cast from a long range.
A strong aoe nuke that has -armor
A very strong teamfight ultimate
The ability to stack camps
The ability to clear the jungle and or farm quickly.
Reasonably strong str growth(2.3)
The downsides are that she is melee, has no counterpush and that her illusion skill is not really strong without farm on the hero. She also doesn't have much survivability aside from her hp(which while 2.3 str growth is not that great). Nyx has carapace and Sven has warcry+being a strength hero. Her disable does not actually stun either, it just immobilizes.
I can see it work but I need to see it done in a high level game first.
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Can yall 2 quit writing essays and get on dota?
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A lot of carries/semi-carries can go mek and it helps a lot since you getting a teamfighting item earlier than any support of offlaner would get it. Makes your 5 man doto just that much stronger 
On January 22 2013 08:26 Kipsate wrote:
A strong aoe nuke that has -armor
Really think this ability is a bit of a tricky one since it is almost melee range. Situationally it sounds strong with her ulti and net through bkb but I just wonder if she can survive through the early game.
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On January 22 2013 08:18 Kishin2 wrote:
What makes a support hero good? Defining this for a carry hero is easy. Carries scale better into late game with farm, simple.
Any hero can technically be played as a support, but what makes X hero better than Y hero at supporting?
Support heroes provide something in the early to mid-game, where the carry tends to be weakest. That something can be anti-pushing power, pushing power, team fight presence, the ability to set up kills/gank, etc. Naga siren has a few of these aspects, so I don't see a particular reason why she can't be played as a support, really.
Saying Naga siren is a bad support because she would be better as a carry doesn't make sense to me.
When we are talking support we are usually referring to position 4 or 5, both literally has 0 cs but position5 should be the hardsupport who is spending all gold for warding/dust /smoke etc. The easiest way to define a support is that 'Can this hero be any use with Boots+Wand+Bracer at 30mins?' because in a disadvantaged game, position 4 will have those items at 30mins and position 5 will literally have one naked boots and 2-3 branches (you are lucky if you can afford a magic wand).
Now imagine that with naga.
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That's only if another of your supports isn't a standard mek carrier. If they are then they could get it, you get some other survivability item, and have the mek support on top of that as well without spending 2k gold. If you're worried about saving a support's gold, don't, because you could argue the same thing in the other direction.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Meka is such a powerfull teamfighting item that unless you are a Chen, Kotl (or any other hero who can farm the jungle solo) your #3 or #2 should get it.
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On January 22 2013 08:30 Itsmedudeman wrote:
That's only if another of your supports isn't a standard mek carrier. If they are then they could get it, you get some other survivability item, and have the mek support on top of that as well without spending 2k gold. If you're worried about saving a support's gold, don't, because you could argue the same thing in the other direction.
Unless it's a jungler or the game is going amazingly well a support(4/5) will never have a mek up before 20 minutes and that's being cautious. In todays game that is just too long a wait for a teamfighting item. You need it way sooner to actually handle fights when the enemy team is 5 manning you WITH a mek and you having.
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On January 22 2013 08:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 08:10 BeanerBurrito wrote:
That's what i hate about dota theorycrafting, there are so many situations where you could say "well it's situational".
But i think you would agree it would be much more efficient for that carry naga to be getting something like a diffusal or a radiance, and to let his support kotl buy the mek and arcane boots, at least for 99/100 games Naga needs a survivability item first. Vanguard sucks, Heart and Linken are good but are expensive. Comparing it to Diffusal is irrelevant because you're not going to rush out a Diffusal with no survivability item, and Radi's only good in the narrow situation where there actually is enough space for you to farm it out. Mek is a very good survivability item for her to buy as her first major item. I'm not so much arguing for the idea of Naga as a support (worthless to theorycraft it without seeing it in a few games), but your example of Mek as a support item is wrong in a large number of cases. Naga's also not the only carry to use Mek as their early go-to defensive item either.
Fair but personally i'm just not a fan of my carry hero, even naga, getting a mek.
I would rather my carry hero get a different survivability item, a support get the mek, and that will allow the carry hero to have the benefit from both the survivability item and his teammates mek which to me seems much more efficient.
I agree naga needs a survivability item and like you said it's usually a heart or linkins or something to that effect.
Mek offers no health, a bit of armor, and a bit of regen, and obviously the active 250 heal.
I feel like the stats and spell block from a linkins, or the much larger amount of health and regen offered from a heart is much more cost efficient as you reach the late game. And again that's what i care about when i'm thinking about my carry, I want to make sure they are stronger than my opponents carry at 30 40 or 50 minutes, and a mek can become a wasted slot in the late game.
You can get 250 health from a vitality booster for half the price of the mek, and then use the extra 1000 gold to continue on your way to whatever damage item you want, and in addition you can let another hero get a mek and get the benefits from both.
I guess i could see why someone might like mek on naga to heal the illusions and its nice little build up, but to me it seems inefficient in general.
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On January 22 2013 08:32 Kipsate wrote:
Meka is such a powerfull teamfighting item that unless you are a Chen, Kotl (or any other hero who can farm the jungle solo) your #3 or #2 should get it.
Wait, why shouldn't KotL or Chen get it? They can get it relatively fast, so rushing it would be best.
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On January 22 2013 08:34 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 08:32 Kipsate wrote:
Meka is such a powerfull teamfighting item that unless you are a Chen, Kotl (or any other hero who can farm the jungle solo) your #3 or #2 should get it. Wait, why shouldn't KotL or Chen get it? They can get it relatively fast, so rushing it would be best.
Think you misread. He's saying unless the support is Chen or Kotl or something similar a higher priority hero should get mek
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On January 22 2013 08:34 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 08:32 Kipsate wrote:
Meka is such a powerfull teamfighting item that unless you are a Chen, Kotl (or any other hero who can farm the jungle solo) your #3 or #2 should get it. Wait, why shouldn't KotL or Chen get it? They can get it relatively fast, so rushing it would be best.
He means mek is so good that if you don't have a hero like kotl or chen who are known for getting a quick mek, that definitely a different hero on your team should get a mek even if they don't usually because it's so strong
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Mek on some carries are very good, a 8mins mek on OD/Silencer gives you incredible teamfight power during early-mid game and your team can snowball from there. Generally speaking, Mek is a position3 item, or maybe position4 when the laning phase went well. Asking position5 to get mek is just inhumane (and can be very bad if he tried to save up a 40mins mek without buying enough vision).
Some heroes like people pointed out are very good carrier of mek because they can farm well, like chen, eza, enig, ds etc then it is regardless of their positions (even so ds and enig are commonly seen on position3).
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On January 22 2013 08:33 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 08:30 Itsmedudeman wrote:
That's only if another of your supports isn't a standard mek carrier. If they are then they could get it, you get some other survivability item, and have the mek support on top of that as well without spending 2k gold. If you're worried about saving a support's gold, don't, because you could argue the same thing in the other direction. Unless it's a jungler or the game is going amazingly well a support(4/5) will never have a mek up before 20 minutes and that's being cautious. In todays game that is just too long a wait for a teamfighting item. You need it way sooner to actually handle fights when the enemy team is 5 manning you WITH a mek and you having.
Well, I'm just gonna point out that in today's game it is still VERY rare to see a #1/#2 position getting the mek. It really isn't that impossible to get a decently timed mek on #4 with jungle pulling and stacking and tower pushing if the #3 can't get it, especially considering the #4 may actually be outfarming the #3 early on.
Even though having an early mek is desirable and does a lot, think about having a bit later of a mek while your #2 or #1 has a big item on top of that. Mek is an easy build up unlike blink dagger so it's not like a #4 will be stuck for 30 minutes without one.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Support is a vague term, rather talk about #position. Dark Seer, Beastmaster and Magnus are extremly common Meka heroes, but they ain't carries, are they supports?
#1 position Meka heroes are almost exclusive to OD/Silencer/Necrolyte anyway.
The point is that the #4 is more then often way too late on getting the Meka, hence the #3 or the #2 has to get it.
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I think it depends what style of dota you looking at. Stuff like mid DS/BM it's super common to get mek up early. Just we don't really see this laning much outside of a few teams(Namely the LGDs). Also the Yao mag with early mek
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On January 22 2013 08:22 BeanerBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 08:18 Kishin2 wrote:
What makes a support hero good? Defining this for a carry hero is easy. Carries scale better into late game with farm, simple.
Any hero can technically be played as a support, but what makes X hero better than Y hero at supporting?
Support heroes provide something in the early to mid-game, where the carry tends to be weakest. That something can be anti-pushing power, pushing power, team fight presence, the ability to set up kills/gank, etc. Naga siren has a few of these aspects, so I don't see a particular reason why she can't be played as a support, really.
Saying Naga siren is a bad support because she would be better as a carry doesn't make sense to me. I think what makes a support hero good, is how well they preform while having no items and while being at a lower level. In a lane the job of the support hero is to harass, control the lane, and ensure that the other hero you are supporting gets all of the farm. Because of that the support hero will be left with very little money, and in addition to that the support hero uses their money more on wards and smaller items because they have so little money. So in my mind, naga is a "bad" hero to play as a support, because there are many other heroes that are better than naga at functioning throughout the game with very little money and lower levels while still handling the duties that the support role comes with. I think that a level 7 lion with very little items who has stun, hex, and finger of death, is much scarier no matter what phase of the game you are in than a level 7 naga who has very little items. So like you said, a carry is a hero who scales very well and is strong in the late game, so a support is a hero who scales very quickly and reaches it's peak early in the game with much less required farm to be effective.
What if lane control isn't a priority in your draft? What if you want your supports to set ups kills and push instead of harass? It all depends on what strategy you were thinking of in your draft.
No hero is exactly similar to another. Naga siren might be terrible at X compared to other heroes, but she still has Y which no other hero has. In my opinion, it's worthless to have a list of top tier supports without separating them by what they're good at. Chen and enchantress are support heroes excellent at pushing. Lina and shadow demon are support heroes good at setting up kills. It's comparing apples to oranges. Do you want apples for your strategy, or oranges?
I don't have a strong opinion on which heroes are good at what. I think it's important to distinguish heroes not by the roles we place on them, but by how they are able to execute those roles.
On January 22 2013 08:30 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 08:18 Kishin2 wrote:
What makes a support hero good? Defining this for a carry hero is easy. Carries scale better into late game with farm, simple.
Any hero can technically be played as a support, but what makes X hero better than Y hero at supporting?
Support heroes provide something in the early to mid-game, where the carry tends to be weakest. That something can be anti-pushing power, pushing power, team fight presence, the ability to set up kills/gank, etc. Naga siren has a few of these aspects, so I don't see a particular reason why she can't be played as a support, really.
Saying Naga siren is a bad support because she would be better as a carry doesn't make sense to me. When we are talking support we are usually referring to position 4 or 5, both literally has 0 cs but position5 should be the hardsupport who is spending all gold for warding/dust /smoke etc. The easiest way to define a support is that 'Can this hero be any use with Boots+Wand+Bracer at 30mins?' because in a disadvantaged game, position 4 will have those items at 30mins and position 5 will literally have one naked boots and 2-3 branches (you are lucky if you can afford a magic wand). Now imagine that with naga.
I think it's important to not define roles based on specifics like cs. The 4 and 5 positions tend to not get any last hits at all, yes. However, saying something like a 4 or 5 should not get cs is an opinion on how the game should be played. Who knows if one day a team comes up with a strategy that involves all 5 heroes getting somewhat equal farm? It's an extreme case, but who knows?
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Naga played with Arcane into Meka into diffusal (sometimes blink if you have already good dps dealers in team) is something i learned from a friend of mine a while ago (late summer last year), and i know that it was one of the common build in clanwars around here.
She going semi-support wasn't unheard of even before she came into the spotlight, as Maelk himself said she should have been tried as a support (this was at least 2 years ago), because she had amazing anti-bkb capabilities, good initiating and decent laning.
Blink is also a good item on her, for different reasons.
As for the build is actually good, i can't comment as i never played her. For what little i've seen, it's effective, but it's hard to gauge how much it actually is.
About Meka on carries, i like it a lot, as it allow you to end your game sooner than other hard carries and don't let them go into the late game. Especially on carries and semis that have no mana problems and want to tank. Necro, Viper, Razor, Sile, Pugna.
Sylla meka was also a famous build by LoH, but that was for strats that won the game super early on. That amazing anti-trilane syllabear, so good.
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EPT
