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On January 18 2013 08:30 Andr3 wrote:
I've been thinking about this for some time and can't really find anything detailed about it...
Does anyone know how the old 3-carry strat worked in DotA1? In one of the famous ZSMJ videos, 2009 talks about it and mentions that the point was you had 3 carries who were good at clearing creep waves to defend etc. I'm interested how did it work and how did you lane exactly, and why did it work back then?
In that ZSMJ game they laned 2/1/2 with some ES/CM roam and it seemed an interesting strat, I'm trying to think of a way to make it work in dota2 but not sure how.
I watched some of Lumi's casts and in some of the Chinese games around 2009ish the lineups looked like this:
2 supports, roaming/babysitters
some combination of farm-dependant carries/semicarries and maybe a ganker.
For example, in the game you're talking about (I think), ZSMJ's 7 minute relic game, he was on PL safe lane with a CM supporting him, 2009 on SF midlane and Razor + ES going off (with the ES roaming a bit more than the CM). They were against Kingsurf.
On the opposite side, Kingsurf had a necrolyte soloing the safe lane and a Sven + VS + Tide off, with Beastmaster mid. Chuan farmed on the Sven and it was Yamateh on the necro IIRC.
Kingsurf clearly had the early game advantage. They firstblooded the CM and they shut down ZSMJ pretty hard. He only had about 70 cs at the 18-19 minute mark, whereas the SF and Razor both had around 90. This was the problem for KS though; they might have shut down the PL, but there were still two other farmed heroes to deal with, and the longer the game went on the worse it became for them. Basically it was just a war of attrition. The relic kill brought them back into the game significantly, but FTD managed to continue to drag it out and they eventually just won lategame.
I think actually that some Chinese teams have been doing something very similar even today. In G-League there were matches where we saw an offensive trilane with a carry or semicarry, some sort of semicarry or ganker in mid, and a solo carry such as Sylla, Luna, or AM. LGD.int ran Brax on Naix with Pajkatt on Luna and G on DS.
With Shadow Demon and Chen or Shadow Demon and Lina or even any other strong roaming supports that are relevant throughout the game I think such team compositions are possible again, but it really comes down to the playstyles and drafts of certain teams. You have to sacrifice teamfight utility to play heroes like SF, which can be okay if you simply drag the game out and then win through lategame damage.
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On January 18 2013 08:53 Andr3 wrote:
Oh so it relied quite some on buybacks. Thanks for your answer.
It relied on multiple things. Midgame carries like Razer/SF/etc. would buy vanguards (which at the time were the most cost efficient hp item because the DR was ridiculously good for them) and blademail (which was much better back then) to force teams to back off. Not just that, after they were done suiciding, they would buyback instantly and repeat the whole thing over until their main carry (such as PL or Dusa) got extremely farmed.
Also, no smoke of deciet made it hard to gank, not to mention the whole insta 4 man TP thing.
It was basically the most silly thing in the world. Because of the cost effectiveness of items like blademail/vanguard, with the way tps work, the lack of smoke, the buyback mechanics, etc. it made DotA extremely boring.
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Hasn't MUFC done something similiar though? SF+weaver+something as split push. 3-carry sounds good in theory to me because you have heroes that are good early on as well(and if it goes late you're at an advantage anyway). SF and weaver can both provide a lot for the team if you go for cheap stuff early on.
And with how potent KotL is at shutting down trilanes it seems to me something similiar to what you guys wrote about could be brought back.
How different was blademail btw? I know vanguard provided more hp and it had same DR for ranged as for melee heroes I believe?
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On January 18 2013 09:06 Andr3 wrote:
Hasn't MUFC done something similiar though? SF+weaver+something as split push. 3-carry sounds good in theory to me because you have heroes that are good early on as well(and if it goes late you're at an advantage anyway). SF and weaver can both provide a lot for the team if you go for cheap stuff early on.
And with how potent KotL is at shutting down trilanes it seems to me something similiar to what you guys wrote about could be brought back.
How different was blademail btw? I know vanguard provided more hp and it had same DR for ranged as for melee heroes I believe?
Used to be something like 15 sec CD, lasted 5 seconds instead of 3 I think. It was pretty silly watching SF/Razer suicide with Vanguard/Blademail to protect their carry/stall game out.
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United States47024 Posts
Changes to Blademail since then:
6.75 - Damage Return duration increased from 4 to 4.5 seconds
6.70 - Cooldown from 25 to 22
6.68 - Damage Return's duration increased from 3.5 to 4 seconds
6.65 - Duration reduced from 5 to 3.5 seconds
6.65 - Cooldown increased from 15 to 25
6.65 - Blademail can no longer reflect blademail sourced damage
Duration is almost back up to the same as it was then, cooldown is slightly, but noticeably, longer.
On January 18 2013 09:17 superstartran wrote:
Used to be something like 15 sec CD, lasted 5 seconds instead of 3 I think.
It lasts 4.5 now. Icefrog semi-reverted the Blademail nerfs since then (was 5s duration/15s CD then, is now 4.5s duration/22s CD).
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On January 18 2013 09:17 TheYango wrote:Changes to Blademail since then: 6.75 - Damage Return duration increased from 4 to 4.5 seconds 6.70 - Cooldown from 25 to 22 6.68 - Damage Return's duration increased from 3.5 to 4 seconds 6.65 - Duration reduced from 5 to 3.5 seconds 6.65 - Cooldown increased from 15 to 25 6.65 - Blademail can no longer reflect blademail sourced damage Duration is almost back up to the same as it was then, cooldown is slightly, but noticeably, longer. Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 09:17 superstartran wrote:
Used to be something like 15 sec CD, lasted 5 seconds instead of 3 I think. It lasts 4.5 now. Icefrog semi-reverted the Blademail nerfs since then (was 5s duration/15s CD then, is now 4.5s duration/22s CD).
CD was the big deal I think. The way fights were back then, they'd easily last over 15 seconds since everyone was just building tank mode with Vanguards/BKBs/Ultra farmed ass carries.
Not to mention them 4 man tps were silly as hell. I'm also pretty sure it wasn't worth it to gank gold wise because you were losing out on gold due to the way the assist system worked back then.
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The main difference was the TP one. People could instantly reinforce teamfights with 4 people in 3 seconds. You'd need 12 seconds or so to do that now. Pushing tower was basically impossible unless you killed 2 people and you were pushing as 5, because 4-5 heroes would jump on you at the same time, forcing teamfights under their tower all the time. It was another game, really.
EDIT: TP gave also invulnerability the tower. Shit was retarded. A 135 gold gliph gg. That was changed in 6.55.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
The TP invulnerability change is much much much older than the change to TP channeling duration.
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On January 18 2013 10:12 Firebolt145 wrote:
The TP invulnerability change is much much much older than the change to TP channeling duration.
yes, invul towers is very very old, i think its 2007 or early 2008
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United States47024 Posts
On January 18 2013 10:12 Firebolt145 wrote:
The TP invulnerability change is much much much older than the change to TP channeling duration.
No? Glyph+TP no longer giving invulnerability was added in 6.55 (2008). TPs being staggered happened in 6.65 (2010).
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On January 18 2013 09:17 TheYango wrote:Changes to Blademail since then: 6.75 - Damage Return duration increased from 4 to 4.5 seconds 6.70 - Cooldown from 25 to 22 6.68 - Damage Return's duration increased from 3.5 to 4 seconds 6.65 - Duration reduced from 5 to 3.5 seconds 6.65 - Cooldown increased from 15 to 25 6.65 - Blademail can no longer reflect blademail sourced damage Duration is almost back up to the same as it was then, cooldown is slightly, but noticeably, longer. Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 09:17 superstartran wrote:
Used to be something like 15 sec CD, lasted 5 seconds instead of 3 I think. It lasts 4.5 now. Icefrog semi-reverted the Blademail nerfs since then (was 5s duration/15s CD then, is now 4.5s duration/22s CD).
Is there a site where you can get the patch history for specific items like this?
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On January 18 2013 11:21 ControlMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 09:17 TheYango wrote:Changes to Blademail since then: 6.75 - Damage Return duration increased from 4 to 4.5 seconds 6.70 - Cooldown from 25 to 22 6.68 - Damage Return's duration increased from 3.5 to 4 seconds 6.65 - Duration reduced from 5 to 3.5 seconds 6.65 - Cooldown increased from 15 to 25 6.65 - Blademail can no longer reflect blademail sourced damage Duration is almost back up to the same as it was then, cooldown is slightly, but noticeably, longer. On January 18 2013 09:17 superstartran wrote:
Used to be something like 15 sec CD, lasted 5 seconds instead of 3 I think. It lasts 4.5 now. Icefrog semi-reverted the Blademail nerfs since then (was 5s duration/15s CD then, is now 4.5s duration/22s CD). Is there a site where you can get the patch history for specific items like this?
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=366682
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On January 18 2013 11:33 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 11:21 ControlMonkey wrote:On January 18 2013 09:17 TheYango wrote:Changes to Blademail since then: 6.75 - Damage Return duration increased from 4 to 4.5 seconds 6.70 - Cooldown from 25 to 22 6.68 - Damage Return's duration increased from 3.5 to 4 seconds 6.65 - Duration reduced from 5 to 3.5 seconds 6.65 - Cooldown increased from 15 to 25 6.65 - Blademail can no longer reflect blademail sourced damage Duration is almost back up to the same as it was then, cooldown is slightly, but noticeably, longer. On January 18 2013 09:17 superstartran wrote:
Used to be something like 15 sec CD, lasted 5 seconds instead of 3 I think. It lasts 4.5 now. Icefrog semi-reverted the Blademail nerfs since then (was 5s duration/15s CD then, is now 4.5s duration/22s CD). Is there a site where you can get the patch history for specific items like this? http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=366682
Awesome, thanks!
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United States47024 Posts
I was also going to add it to Liquipedia, but I got lazy for a while and then forgot about it.
I'll probably do it once I have some time.
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I'm not sure if it was just the game I was in, but nobody could see pudge's hook. Made it quite annoying. The guy had some mythical hook if that might be a cause of it.
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Can someone tell me how the pool in the least played mode actually works? I have heroes in there with 13 games but some with 11 games are not. o.o
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dam that lina catalyst wizard hat cosmetic is so good
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On January 18 2013 12:05 r.Evo wrote:
Can someone tell me how the pool in the least played mode actually works? I have heroes in there with 13 games but some with 11 games are not. o.o
It should be called least wins instead of least played.
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How much is the Lina hat trading for now?
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On January 18 2013 12:20 Dubzex wrote:
How much is the Lina hat trading for now?
was 1 old key a few days ago, i'm not sure about now
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EPT
