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On January 07 2013 07:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 07:16 BurningSera wrote:On January 07 2013 06:58 TheYango wrote:Judging from your choices, I can tell you value AoE teamfight power very highly.  Especially given that you chose to put SK, Tide, and Thrall on there over Rubick. Ha, ya, sorta. Because support(ive) heroes almost always get picked off first so i want the supports to do anything useful before they die. A 2/3 men stun from SK or 4/5 men ravage and then if thrall can pull off his combo he can ruin the oppo team singlehandedly. TC is there mainly due to i love the war3 model so much and he is like the combination of BM+ES+Rubick('s aura) and then he can hit so hard in hard in team fight from his ancestral spirit, unlike most support(ive) heroes which can usually get gtfo after using their spells. Rubick on the other hand is more about the flashy play and to me he is a situational pick when the oppo has big (key) spells. I do love Rubick and i remember rgar i played Rubick for 2months straight back then when he first released rofl. I feel like you're under-valuing the basics then. Even without key spells to steal, Rubick still brings to the table the core basic needs of a point-and-click reliable disable, an AoE stun, and a long-ranged AoE nuke for push/counterpush/teamfight. Very few heroes in the game actually provide all 3 of these things. All of the heroes you listed have certain specific usefulness, but they sacrifice one or more of the basics to get it. The tradeoff is often worth it, but a team may or may not need those, whereas a team ALWAYS needs the basic stuff. Spell Steal is just icing on the cake.
Whenever you play in a team the drafter will want a specific hero to work with certain strategy. Rubick is an all-rounder hero for sure so for balancing his all-rounderness he tends to be 'ordinary' if you didn't give him farm/level (which is common as a support), which is why i emphasized on his ulti, support Rubick usually get picked because of his ulti.
Rubick showed up many times in the hero section of my guide so that really justifies him as a very good (support) hero xD
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I cannot wait for silencer back to the comp scene. He is the reason that i became a fan of 2009.
On January 07 2013 07:44 TheYango wrote:
He's also just generally an extremely teamfight-focused hero. He does a LOT of damage off his nukes and Glaives, and Global Silence is an insane teamfight skill, but he doesn't farm that fast and doesn't push/counterpush well at all. He has to snowball off of his enormous midgame teamfight presence to match up against many carries lategame (although he does snowball extremely well due to his Int steal potentially resulting in very rapid Int gain/loss over the course of several won fights).
In pubs, this isn't a problem, because with the way pubs are played, it's much easier to force teamfights when you want them (even if it means the other team will repeatedly teamfight themselves to death), but in competitive play, if the enemy team can't fight you, they really will find ways to avoid it without coming out worse off.
Yup his ulti must be in the top3 most broken spells in dota. And for pub, i simply wish that people realize that he is not really a support-_- While i have been doing plenty of support silencer in early game and transition to carry later, doesnt work that well in a disadvantaged game.
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Honestly I hope we never see the day silencer makes it to a viable state. Hate how annoying he is, the only thing he has going for himself is his squishiness so he's easy to kill. Makes me feel better.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2013 08:44 Numy wrote:
Honestly I hope we never see the day silencer makes it to a viable state. Hate how annoying he is, the only thing he has going for himself is his squishiness so he's easy to kill. Makes me feel better.
Silencer is only squishy because people build him incorrectly (buying zero defensive stat items like Force Staff). His Strength growth is actually above average for an Intelligence hero (2.2, just behind Jakiro and DS at 2.3--while he has less base Strength, he has much higher Agility growth).
Mek+AC Silencer is actually quite a tough nut to crack when your whole team is silenced for 5 seconds. Not to mention that Ghost Scepter is tantamount to 4 seconds of total invulnerability in many cases (whole team silenced, can't autoattack him for 4 seconds).
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Don't kill the one thing that makes silencer tolerable. If he isn't squishy there's no hope in this world. It's a dark day that happens. Thankfully people are dumb and don't get mek a lot of the time. Always push it off to some other person and hope he gets it in time to be impactful.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
That's why I always go phase + drums + SnY -> manta + halberd
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With the current metagame, I think the main problem of silencer would be how to lane him. In the easy lane a single suicide laner, he should be able to more or less completely shut him down; but then he has to leave the farm for a carry which really isn't good for him in the long run as he needs some items to increase his survivability. For roaming he lacks slows/stuns. So the he might fit in well if you want trilane vs trilane clashes, but he will be target no.1 for the enemy team then. Or you could let him solo easy lane if you for an offensive trilane. In mid, he will destroy melees like panda or beastmaster that you see there occasionally, but you need to invest to prevent him from getting ganked. So I could see him as a viable situational pick but not more, unless his arrival will change the metagame heavily.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2013 09:10 Mafe wrote:
With the current metagame, I think the main problem of silencer would be how to lane him. In the easy lane a single suicide laner, he should be able to more or less completely shut him down; but then he has to leave the farm for a carry which really isn't good for him in the long run as he needs some items to increase his survivability. For roaming he lacks slows/stuns. So the he might fit in well if you want trilane vs trilane clashes, but he will be target no.1 for the enemy team then. Or you could let him solo easy lane if you for an offensive trilane. In mid, he will destroy melees like panda or beastmaster that you see there occasionally, but you need to invest to prevent him from getting ganked. So I could see him as a viable situational pick but not more, unless his arrival will change the metagame heavily.
Silencer's fine as a safe lane carry (either solo or with supports). He can play mid as well, but he's gankable and can't gank that well himself since he's dependent on the laners having disables. But I don't know why you have a problem with him being played as a farming carry in the safe lane.
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You could even solo lane him safe lane. He destroys most 1v1 matchups without outside help.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Laning is like the biggest strenghts of Silencer now. The bigger problem is what he does later. He doesn't have disables and even with a lot of gold, his dps is not the most impressive thing. And his ulti has an absurd cooldown.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2013 09:18 cecek wrote:
Laning is like the biggest strenghts of Silencer now. The bigger problem is what he does later. He doesn't have disables and even with a lot of gold, his dps is not the most impressive thing. And his ulti has an absurd cooldown.
His DPS is fine, lol. His nukes are both strong, and he has a pure damage Orb. His lategame snowballs off of the fact that the Glaives passive Int steal is basically Track for yourself (instead of getting gold, you directly get Intel for yourself). Global Silence's cooldown is not "absurd", seeing as it's shorter than Ravage, and Ravage is already up often enough.
Silencer is extremely strong in teamfights. Anything related to his presence in teamfights is not remotely a problem for him. His problems extend to things that are not teamfights (he can't push quickly/safely because he has no AoE or escapes, he can't counterpush at all, he farms slowly, he doesn't have hard disables which limiting his solo-killing ability, etc.).
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On January 07 2013 09:13 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 09:10 Mafe wrote:
With the current metagame, I think the main problem of silencer would be how to lane him. In the easy lane a single suicide laner, he should be able to more or less completely shut him down; but then he has to leave the farm for a carry which really isn't good for him in the long run as he needs some items to increase his survivability. For roaming he lacks slows/stuns. So the he might fit in well if you want trilane vs trilane clashes, but he will be target no.1 for the enemy team then. Or you could let him solo easy lane if you for an offensive trilane. In mid, he will destroy melees like panda or beastmaster that you see there occasionally, but you need to invest to prevent him from getting ganked. So I could see him as a viable situational pick but not more, unless his arrival will change the metagame heavily. Silencer's fine as a safe lane carry (either solo or with supports). He can play mid as well, but he's gankable and can't gank that well himself since he's dependent on the laners having disables. But I don't know why you have a problem with him being played as a farming carry in the safe lane.
Hm I have to admit I don't know too much about carry silencer, so I did not really think of this option xD. Which skillbuild would you go here? It always seemed to me that silencer is strongest in midgame when he can mess up the enemy team (kinda comparable to disruptor) and consequently misses out on farm a little. I mean his glaives are the only skill that really scales with items? But most importantly, why could he really be competitive with say luna?
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
Yo Yango on a serious note what do you think about the build I mentioned earlier. Plenty of survivability and movespeed for amazing orbwalk ~~~
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On January 07 2013 09:28 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 09:18 cecek wrote:
Laning is like the biggest strenghts of Silencer now. The bigger problem is what he does later. He doesn't have disables and even with a lot of gold, his dps is not the most impressive thing. And his ulti has an absurd cooldown. His DPS is fine, lol. His nukes are both strong, and he has a pure damage Orb. His lategame snowballs off of the fact that the Glaives passive Int steal is basically Track for yourself (instead of getting gold, you directly get Intel for yourself). Global Silence's cooldown is not "absurd", seeing as it's shorter than Ravage, and Ravage is already up often enough. Silencer is extremely strong in teamfights. Anything related to his presence in teamfights is not remotely a problem for him.
How is his dps fine? All of the carries do much more damage than him with comparable farm, and most of them farm much faster. The nukes are great in small clashes and in laning,but are very bad in team fights. Curse does basically nothing, and you cast last word once, maybe twice. That's just not enough value at all. And the passive int steal is cute and all, but a snowball? If you're lucky you get 30 int off it, unless you're winning hard regardless and it doesn't matter.
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United States47024 Posts
You skill him the same way you would anywhere else--1 rank Glaives, then Word>Curse>Glaives.
Being midgame-oriented isn't a drawback for a 1st position carry in 6.77. The tempo of the game is fast enough that many carries are being played around early-midgame push/teamfight timings anyway (Luna, Drums PL, Drums Lifestealer). "Missing farm" isn't a concern on carries with powerful enough pushing/teamfighting ability.
Compared to Luna, Silencer is a weaker pusher, slower farmer, and probably weaker endgame depending on how much Intel he has stolen from kills. But he's arguably a stronger teamfighter (Luna brings only nukes and autoattack damage, Silencer brings a lot more utility because of his silences), and definitely a stronger laner.
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Am i the only one going Glaives+stats+glaives+stats+glaives+ulti? Maybe I'm too used with the old silencer... but that curse sucks as I see it.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2013 09:35 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 09:28 TheYango wrote:On January 07 2013 09:18 cecek wrote:
Laning is like the biggest strenghts of Silencer now. The bigger problem is what he does later. He doesn't have disables and even with a lot of gold, his dps is not the most impressive thing. And his ulti has an absurd cooldown. His DPS is fine, lol. His nukes are both strong, and he has a pure damage Orb. His lategame snowballs off of the fact that the Glaives passive Int steal is basically Track for yourself (instead of getting gold, you directly get Intel for yourself). Global Silence's cooldown is not "absurd", seeing as it's shorter than Ravage, and Ravage is already up often enough. Silencer is extremely strong in teamfights. Anything related to his presence in teamfights is not remotely a problem for him. How is his dps fine? All of the carries do much more damage than him with comparable farm, and most of them farm much faster. The nukes are great in small clashes and in laning,but are very bad in team fights. Curse does basically nothing, and you cast last word once, maybe twice. That's just not enough value at all. And the passive int steal is cute and all, but a snowball? If you're lucky you get 30 int off it, unless you're winning hard regardless and it doesn't matter.
His DPS is fine because of the fact that he's a carry hero with 600 autoattack range and a ridiculous engaging/counter-engaging skill like Global Silence. What carries are you comparing him to? Any melee carry requires BKB or a similar defensive item to give him the space to come anywhere close to his "theoretical" DPS. Ranged carries? Most don't have comparable nukes. The ones that do don't have the inherent defensive ability of Global Silence and have shorter engagement range (Luna, Shadow Fiend), so again require BKB to approach their "theoretical" DPS. So in any practical scenario, Silencer achieves DPS that's comparable or superior to other carries in the context of midgame teamfights, and does not get outperformed until generally the 2nd major item.
Saying Curse does "nothing" is laughable given its current numbers. It's guaranteed 260 damage from Global Silence, and can go up to 390. Coupled with its mana drain and very good range/AoE, it's an extremely good nuke in teamfights. Unreliable without Global Silence, but with it, the guaranteed damage matches or exceeds any other AoE nuke available to a carry.
Glaives +2 Intel is worth 100 gold if you're using Mantle of Intelligence as a baseline, more if you use a bigger Intel item and value the fact that it has infinite slot-efficiency. That's effectively Track gold for yourself. 30 Intel is a very good number, seeing as that's more than a Mystic Staff, and last I checked, having a 3k gold advantage over the enemy carry for free is pretty respectable for winning the game.
On January 07 2013 09:46 drowisimba wrote:
Am i the only one going Glaives+stats+glaives+stats+glaives+ulti? Maybe I'm too used with the old silencer... but that curse sucks as I see it.
Skipping Curse is ok in some circumstances, since it's mediocre in lanes that can break it easily, but skipping Last Word isn't. It's simply far too powerful of a spell in lane, given it's absurd range and base values.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On January 07 2013 09:46 drowisimba wrote:
Am i the only one going Glaives+stats+glaives+stats+glaives+ulti? Maybe I'm too used with the old silencer... but that curse sucks as I see it.
That's far too old school. Last word and Curse have both been buffed immensely.
What you have to do is combo the last word and curse together properly. Last word allows you to ensure 3-4 seconds of Curse having an effect without the enemy being able to remove it. Use last word, wait for it to proc -> cast curse.
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On January 07 2013 05:51 Animzor wrote:
Why the FUCK isn't shift-enter (say all) working? this is driving me insane. There are apparently other people having this problem, but there seems to be no solution.
LOL i thought i was going insane
i was like, i CLEARLY pressed shift but its going to ally chat... wtf
sorta glad its a common problem
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
"[curse of the silent] is an extremely good nuke in teamfights."
TheYango 2013
260 damage over 4 seconds for a level 4 spell when used together with a 140s cooldown ulitmate. So great! I'm sorry, but I have a different definition of extremely good nukes.
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EPT
