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General Discussion - Page 1517

Forum Index > Dota 2 General
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IRC chatter should remain in IRC - http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=tl.dota2

Posts that relate to topics with their own thread, such as in News, Tournaments or Strategy should go in those threads.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
November 19 2012 16:46 GMT
#30321
On November 20 2012 00:50 ChunderBoy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 00:49 Numy wrote:
Doesn't work on images to my knowledge or controlled units, just the hero itself.


Pretty sure it works on summoned units / Manta illusions. But doesn't work with Reality illusions.


Oh ok I was mistaken then. Thought when I played mag it didn't work.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
November 19 2012 16:56 GMT
#30322
On November 20 2012 01:23 NB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 23:51 r.Evo wrote:
On November 19 2012 23:42 NB wrote:
On November 19 2012 23:34 r.Evo wrote:
On November 19 2012 21:17 rob.au wrote:
The low priority system seems like the worst out of all three moba games for dealing with leavers. It basically is the worst punishment out of all three yet you are not really tied to your account in dota2, so it's easy to just play on a smurf or just not at all for a day and you basically feel no effects of the punishment. Add in to this that it doesn't take into account your actual leaver %, you can have a couple of games of issues (beta game) and get put in low priority for over a day.

Compare this to LoL where they have it so you can't play until the game you left finishes and then just straight up ban your account if you leave too much (where your account is actually valuable due to level up + unlock system).

Or compare it to hon where if you go over a certain % you have to go basically play practice games until you lower your %, you can't just go smurf for a day and come back no problem.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure yet. In theory the whole leaver queue -> go smurf -> repeat sounds like a horrible idea for a leaver system, I guess the only reason it still works is because the total playerbase is still pretty low and until a few weeks ago pretty much everyone in there had something invested (invites at 3-4 keys).

Keep in mind that e.g. the League system encourages leaving, coming back and helping the enemy team to win since there is no other mechanic possible to get into the next game. That also doesn't seem ideal.

Just based on the way DotA 2 is set up it will be literally impossible to deal with smurfs, the whole unlock mechanic in League is much more discouraging to smurfs for example. Either Valve starts doing the leaver queue thing via e.g. IP (increasing the barrier it takes to get "normal" games with your smurfs) or something similar or they find another way of punishing people that makes games go smoother but doesn't punish so hard that people are more willing to invest in smurfs.

As it is, I can't see the current system working when the game gets officially released as FTP (unless that implies not a lot of growth, which would be also pretty damn stupid).

In a way, the level system of LoL somewhat make sense for a F2P model and limiting smurf. But such thing cant be transfer to dota2 bc there isnt a lot that are being attached on an account: no pay to win, no pay for heroes etc.. I guess a barrier could be set for 'F2P accounts' and 'paid account' (similar to tf2) but where would you draw the line? sever? mmr barrier? Nothing really make sense unless you want to break some of the game unique selling points.

Imo, the only way to solve this is implementing somesort of Inhouse circle system in-game. F2P cannot be vouched and can only access the game via match making. This will shift the main playing platform for high level games onto inhouse leagues. These leagues will not fail like all the past IRC system bc:
1/In-game implemented: more convenience.
2/Item drop beneficial: could always inject the dropping rate or some unique items with seasonal bonuses.

Now that you mention it, I can see a reverse system working that rewards you for having lots of games with low amount of leaves:
Nerf normal droprate and give bonus for x games you have with less than y leaves. Suddenly an account with 150 wins and 1 leave gets much more valuable over one with 5 wins and 0 leaves.

TADAAAA HATS MAKE FOR AWESOME GAMES ONCE AGAIN. Hats solve everything. While I can see the inhouse stuff implemented into ingame work I think it's not the way Valve does things and it's not needed. People who desperately DO want inhouses like that can find vouched Leagues and I can't see the developer supporting small circles which, in the end, help making normal solo queue games a much more horrible place. You just can't introduce mechanics that shut out new players via design opposed to mmr/skill level.

dropping is actually more complicated than you might think. We are talking about rarity of items in a system that has no crafting aka. no item dispenser. This means that with the current drop rate, across all sever we could have a rate X rares drop per minutes and that X determine how rare the item will be valued. Increasing the drop inside a global trading system also mean that you are increasing the item quantity therefore decreasing the item demand which ultimately defeat the F2P model.

Just like match making, i believe Valve is taking their time to test out the business model that they will be using in the future.

Oh, that wasn't what I meant. Use the current normal droprate (+ a small percentage) as the default droprate for the people with no or almost no leaves/reports. The more leaves/low priority smackdowns you have the lower your droprate sinks.

Just sell it as "Less leaves = more items!" insead of "More leaves = less items!" and have a certain number of games played treshhold which you need to qualify for the increased droprate.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
BlitzerSC
Profile Joined May 2011
Italy8800 Posts
November 19 2012 16:58 GMT
#30323
Dudes, a easy way to get items is to go 0-20 in a game and BAM, free items. I'm not even kidding.
Incze
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Romania2058 Posts
November 19 2012 16:59 GMT
#30324
They should just ban the accounts after a certain number of offenses and lock all the items on it, too. This would solve both the leaving issue and the devaluation of items
Religion: Buckethead
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
November 19 2012 17:01 GMT
#30325
On November 20 2012 01:59 Incze wrote:
They should just ban the accounts after a certain number of offenses and lock all the items on it, too. This would solve both the leaving issue and the devaluation of items

Would suck since it's tied to your steam account. Afaik the only way to lose access to a steam game in some way or another is if VAC kicks you out for cheating/hacking on a source engine game. Should stay that way imo.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Teton
Profile Joined May 2010
France1656 Posts
November 19 2012 17:28 GMT
#30326
On November 19 2012 16:34 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 13:58 Pseudoku wrote:
On November 19 2012 13:47 aintz wrote:
On November 19 2012 13:37 trinxified wrote:
So I just played 2 games with Skeleton King and pretty much just stacked lifesteal as much as possible... Just realized that they all work together.

Vampiric Aura, Vlad's Offering, Satanic... Can't really die as long as I'm attacking. Also had Power Treads, Armlet of Mord and BKB.

I guess if I had a Lifestealer ally, he'd actually get even more lifesteal than me if he also got Satanic?


vlads and satanic just take up space in sk's inventory. bad items.


Satanic is a great item. Vlads can be carried by another person.

Honestly, I think Mjollnir is a much more practical orb for Skeleton King. After your other typical items (Armlet, BKB), you're lacking Attack Speed, not damage. The Maelstrom is also practical earlier to help you farming speed, as Skeleton King does not have any way to AoE flash-farm, and the Static Charge active is a significant source of damage, as you want to be out there and die once in a fight.


why not ac
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
November 19 2012 17:39 GMT
#30327
On November 20 2012 02:01 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 01:59 Incze wrote:
They should just ban the accounts after a certain number of offenses and lock all the items on it, too. This would solve both the leaving issue and the devaluation of items

Would suck since it's tied to your steam account. Afaik the only way to lose access to a steam game in some way or another is if VAC kicks you out for cheating/hacking on a source engine game. Should stay that way imo.


With how much money people have on their Steam account, banning is something Valve need to do really rarely if they don"t want tons of lawsuits against them. =X
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
BlitzerSC
Profile Joined May 2011
Italy8800 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 17:56:40
November 19 2012 17:56 GMT
#30328
So, I just finished a game where I was forced to go solo hardlane as Kunkka. Their AM got 6 early kills and had a 15 min bfury + vanguard.
This is how the game ended:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

sup haters, hardlane Kunkka best carry. I was oneshotting everyone


Discuss.
Wyk
Profile Joined March 2011
314 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 17:58:52
November 19 2012 17:58 GMT
#30329
On November 20 2012 01:58 BlitzerSC wrote:
Dudes, a easy way to get items is to go 0-20 in a game and BAM, free items. I'm not even kidding.

I can somewhat vouch for that. It's not that getting the item is surprising, but by going 0-XX and getting a real nice rare or mythical you begin to wonder [...]
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 17:59:55
November 19 2012 17:59 GMT
#30330
On November 20 2012 01:56 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 01:23 NB wrote:
On November 19 2012 23:51 r.Evo wrote:
On November 19 2012 23:42 NB wrote:
On November 19 2012 23:34 r.Evo wrote:
On November 19 2012 21:17 rob.au wrote:
The low priority system seems like the worst out of all three moba games for dealing with leavers. It basically is the worst punishment out of all three yet you are not really tied to your account in dota2, so it's easy to just play on a smurf or just not at all for a day and you basically feel no effects of the punishment. Add in to this that it doesn't take into account your actual leaver %, you can have a couple of games of issues (beta game) and get put in low priority for over a day.

Compare this to LoL where they have it so you can't play until the game you left finishes and then just straight up ban your account if you leave too much (where your account is actually valuable due to level up + unlock system).

Or compare it to hon where if you go over a certain % you have to go basically play practice games until you lower your %, you can't just go smurf for a day and come back no problem.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure yet. In theory the whole leaver queue -> go smurf -> repeat sounds like a horrible idea for a leaver system, I guess the only reason it still works is because the total playerbase is still pretty low and until a few weeks ago pretty much everyone in there had something invested (invites at 3-4 keys).

Keep in mind that e.g. the League system encourages leaving, coming back and helping the enemy team to win since there is no other mechanic possible to get into the next game. That also doesn't seem ideal.

Just based on the way DotA 2 is set up it will be literally impossible to deal with smurfs, the whole unlock mechanic in League is much more discouraging to smurfs for example. Either Valve starts doing the leaver queue thing via e.g. IP (increasing the barrier it takes to get "normal" games with your smurfs) or something similar or they find another way of punishing people that makes games go smoother but doesn't punish so hard that people are more willing to invest in smurfs.

As it is, I can't see the current system working when the game gets officially released as FTP (unless that implies not a lot of growth, which would be also pretty damn stupid).

In a way, the level system of LoL somewhat make sense for a F2P model and limiting smurf. But such thing cant be transfer to dota2 bc there isnt a lot that are being attached on an account: no pay to win, no pay for heroes etc.. I guess a barrier could be set for 'F2P accounts' and 'paid account' (similar to tf2) but where would you draw the line? sever? mmr barrier? Nothing really make sense unless you want to break some of the game unique selling points.

Imo, the only way to solve this is implementing somesort of Inhouse circle system in-game. F2P cannot be vouched and can only access the game via match making. This will shift the main playing platform for high level games onto inhouse leagues. These leagues will not fail like all the past IRC system bc:
1/In-game implemented: more convenience.
2/Item drop beneficial: could always inject the dropping rate or some unique items with seasonal bonuses.

Now that you mention it, I can see a reverse system working that rewards you for having lots of games with low amount of leaves:
Nerf normal droprate and give bonus for x games you have with less than y leaves. Suddenly an account with 150 wins and 1 leave gets much more valuable over one with 5 wins and 0 leaves.

TADAAAA HATS MAKE FOR AWESOME GAMES ONCE AGAIN. Hats solve everything. While I can see the inhouse stuff implemented into ingame work I think it's not the way Valve does things and it's not needed. People who desperately DO want inhouses like that can find vouched Leagues and I can't see the developer supporting small circles which, in the end, help making normal solo queue games a much more horrible place. You just can't introduce mechanics that shut out new players via design opposed to mmr/skill level.

dropping is actually more complicated than you might think. We are talking about rarity of items in a system that has no crafting aka. no item dispenser. This means that with the current drop rate, across all sever we could have a rate X rares drop per minutes and that X determine how rare the item will be valued. Increasing the drop inside a global trading system also mean that you are increasing the item quantity therefore decreasing the item demand which ultimately defeat the F2P model.

Just like match making, i believe Valve is taking their time to test out the business model that they will be using in the future.

Oh, that wasn't what I meant. Use the current normal droprate (+ a small percentage) as the default droprate for the people with no or almost no leaves/reports. The more leaves/low priority smackdowns you have the lower your droprate sinks.

Just sell it as "Less leaves = more items!" insead of "More leaves = less items!" and have a certain number of games played treshhold which you need to qualify for the increased droprate.

That's what I've been saying in the Surrender thread. Valve can put the Surrender option in, as long as it has some penalty on it, for example, when you call Concede vote, something like "By conceding the game, you'll only have 25% exp gain, item drop rate and rare item top compared to normal. Do you want to concede?" or/and "You already conceded one/two game today, you are not allowed call/vote for concede anymore (only 4 other players can vote to decide)"

Let's face it, the game is gonna be free, with the way dota2 account is right now, stuffs like smurf accounts are gonna happen a lot. In stead of fighting against the concede function, people should try to find a way to limit its use or something.
Yoshi-
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany10227 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 18:00:54
November 19 2012 17:59 GMT
#30331
Maybe valve is giving bad players a reason to continue playing even though they obv suck?

Also wtf are the joindota staff smoking? http://www.joindota.com/en/news/4919-introducing-the-pro-rating
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 18:07:54
November 19 2012 18:06 GMT
#30332
On November 20 2012 02:59 Yoshi- wrote:
Maybe valve is giving bad players a reason to continue playing even though they obv suck?

Also wtf are the joindota staff smoking? http://www.joindota.com/en/news/4919-introducing-the-pro-rating

That reminds me of a certain organisation who managed to punish players for every written word that's not "gg" in the end. Someone help me, it was something with K. Kes.... HMMMM.... KESPA MAYBE?

Edit: I think deducting money form the prizepool is not the way to go. I can see fines work better than that. Imagine a football game where the winning team get's 10% from their prize money deducted because "They talked too much on the field" or "They sounded stupid in their interviews".
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
November 19 2012 18:06 GMT
#30333
On November 20 2012 02:59 Yoshi- wrote:
Maybe valve is giving bad players a reason to continue playing even though they obv suck?

Also wtf are the joindota staff smoking? http://www.joindota.com/en/news/4919-introducing-the-pro-rating


Oh goodness. That is horrible. They are going to reduce your prizemoney if you use standins to crush through easy preliminaries? o.O

You lose prizemoney if you shoutout during pauses?

To be fair, there is a need for professionalism in the scene, especially using appropriate names etc, but this system is a complete joke :/
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Dattish
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Sweden6297 Posts
November 19 2012 18:06 GMT
#30334
--- Nuked ---
Yoshi-
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany10227 Posts
November 19 2012 18:07 GMT
#30335
I wonder if JD will pay the teams 5% extra every price money each time a jd member, goes full retard mode.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
November 19 2012 18:10 GMT
#30336
On November 20 2012 03:06 Sn0_Man wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 02:59 Yoshi- wrote:
Maybe valve is giving bad players a reason to continue playing even though they obv suck?

Also wtf are the joindota staff smoking? http://www.joindota.com/en/news/4919-introducing-the-pro-rating

To be fair, there is a need for professionalism in the scene, especially using appropriate names etc, but this system is a complete joke :/

I mean, yeah, I doubt people want to see guys named "ANALDESTROYEROFCUNTS" in tournaments. But friendly banter like the xboct namechange in TI2 should be fine. A SHOUTOUT TO XY during a pause or a non important moment is fine too by me.

If things get out of hand you have referees around who can step in with decisions on the spot, there's no need to write up every single thing a team does or doesn't.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Asha
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom38257 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-19 18:17:42
November 19 2012 18:15 GMT
#30337
On November 20 2012 03:06 Sn0_Man wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 02:59 Yoshi- wrote:
Maybe valve is giving bad players a reason to continue playing even though they obv suck?

Also wtf are the joindota staff smoking? http://www.joindota.com/en/news/4919-introducing-the-pro-rating


Oh goodness. That is horrible. They are going to reduce your prizemoney if you use standins to crush through easy preliminaries? o.O

You lose prizemoney if you shoutout during pauses?

To be fair, there is a need for professionalism in the scene, especially using appropriate names etc, but this system is a complete joke :/


I presume you'd have to break a lot of the minor rules all the time to end up penalised for it.

You have to have a sub 5 point rating for your tournament overall to be penalised, and each match is 1-10 rating (starting at 10) with bigger weighting to the more important games. As far as I can see you could have 2 standiins and show up 10mins late one day, and as long as you showed up with your normal line up on time the next game you'd still be averaging a 6 etc.

Doubt any team who makes it to the prize stages will fall foul of the rulings.


cilinder007
Profile Joined August 2010
Slovenia7251 Posts
November 19 2012 18:19 GMT
#30338
On November 20 2012 02:59 Yoshi- wrote:
Maybe valve is giving bad players a reason to continue playing even though they obv suck?

Also wtf are the joindota staff smoking? http://www.joindota.com/en/news/4919-introducing-the-pro-rating

wow this is such bullshit, reducing prize money wtf kind of monopoly is this
teapoted
Profile Joined August 2012
United Kingdom24425 Posts
November 19 2012 18:32 GMT
#30339
On November 20 2012 03:10 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 03:06 Sn0_Man wrote:
On November 20 2012 02:59 Yoshi- wrote:
Maybe valve is giving bad players a reason to continue playing even though they obv suck?

Also wtf are the joindota staff smoking? http://www.joindota.com/en/news/4919-introducing-the-pro-rating

To be fair, there is a need for professionalism in the scene, especially using appropriate names etc, but this system is a complete joke :/

I mean, yeah, I doubt people want to see guys named "ANALDESTROYEROFCUNTS" in tournaments. But friendly banter like the xboct namechange in TI2 should be fine. A SHOUTOUT TO XY during a pause or a non important moment is fine too by me.

If things get out of hand you have referees around who can step in with decisions on the spot, there's no need to write up every single thing a team does or doesn't.
You mean "Zenith ISLAYGAYS".

Classic.
Once you Goblak...
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
November 19 2012 18:34 GMT
#30340
Yeah there have been more then a few really inappropriate names during broadcasts. There should be rules about that stuff.
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
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