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To those who don't understand why SC2 is region locked -
Ping/Lag is your time from your computer to the server. (possibly and back)
In games like SC2, being really far apart from the opponent (in client hosted games) or far from the server (in server hosted games) creates massive delay, throwing off the actions of the player.
In Diablo 3, you are not competing with other player, so if you choose to connect to a server that is very far away, the only one being punished is you. In Starcraft, I believe they set a floor of sorts to try to equalize the lag (for exmaple both players have minimum 160ms)
While you still hurt yourself by joining server hosted games in SC2, you can also cause the game itself to lag to allow you to catchup. I'm presuming Diablo will have no such compensation.
So for all the above reasons, Region locking is not really needed from a gameplay standpoint.
As mentioned, this will do very little to deter gold farming. It's not hard to get a US mailing address.
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Good to hear that it will be region free, and I plan to steer clear of the Real Money AH so that part doesn't effect me at all.
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On October 31 2011 20:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 09:44 Taguchi wrote:
funny how d3 is going to be region free while sc2 isnt
really, id like to hear them explain this away
we couldnt create a gateway system for sc2 but did in the case of diablo because...
i bet they start waving their hands around screaming ESPORTS (and they'll need to scream so as not to have to listen to the obvious responses like "but we still have lag ANYWAY if we want to host a tourney with koreans, americans and euros!!")
anyway, good news! the RMAH being regionlocked is obviously ok, blizz couldnt possibly navigate through all different laws and regulations to make a global AH work, and nevermind different currencies and value of money elsewhere it never was a question of "can they make a gateway selection". as i said during beta already, the could enable that within days. bnet infrastructure recognizes accounts from other regions (like i can log into us battlenet with my acc and it shows up my games etc) and even the coding for that is done since the down under guys got access to us servers. they just dont want to. well good news i guess for d3. tho i care much less in d3 about it then in sc2.
ive been around man i know what original bnet had
the region lock for sc2 was, imo, an obvious money grab disguised as ESPORTS rationalizations and happy customers and whatever, as if running into a 150ms user every once in a while would anger people as much as not having the option to play with friends across the world did
glad that diablo is doing away with all that
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Yeah... maybe HotS will bring this. If D3 really is region free they will have a hard time to justify it for SC2.
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It's not said if characters are locked in the region you created them. I would assume they are, otherwise you could transfer items from one RMAH to another and make profit through money exchange and anyway destroy the purpose of locking you to a rmah region.
Maybe it's possible to have the same character on all regions. When u want to put something on RMAH u need to go to the character select screen or something, and that's the place u will find the RMAH button. Even if u are on different regions, the RMAH button can still be bound and locked to your original Region .Each time u want to sell an item ..u click on the RMAH button, and that automatically connects to the region u are in even if u are connected to another region with your character.
I think they planned out the RMAH system separately from the actual game itself, that would explain why u need to go to the menu screen to see the RMAH button. U can find items on the US/EU server and only be able to sell them on the EU servers if u are from EU, but u can't sell outside your region.
What really makes me go "huh?!" is they have separate forums for a game that should be region free. If they want to make EU&NA play together we should have the same site/forum don't u say? Otherwise how do we communicate efficiently.
It's like u and a neighbor having the same game but u are forced to call eachother on the phone instead of just go and knock on his door, because there are sharks..demons...man eating pandas and so on between u and him. It's stupid...
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On November 08 2011 22:44 ReboundEU wrote:Show nested quote +It's not said if characters are locked in the region you created them. I would assume they are, otherwise you could transfer items from one RMAH to another and make profit through money exchange and anyway destroy the purpose of locking you to a rmah region. Maybe it's possible to have the same character on all regions. When u want to put something on RMAH u need to go to the character select screen or something, and that's the place u will find the RMAH button. Even if u are on different regions, the RMAH button can still be bound and locked to your original Region .Each time u want to sell an item ..u click on the RMAH button, and that automatically connects to the region u are in even if u are connected to another region with your character. I think they planned out the RMAH system separately from the actual game itself, that would explain why u need to go to the menu screen to see the RMAH button. U can find items on the US/EU server and only be able to sell them on the EU servers if u are from EU, but u can't sell outside your region. What really makes me go "huh?!" is they have separate forums for a game that should be region free. If they want to make EU&NA play together we should have the same site/forum don't u say? Otherwise how do we communicate efficiently. It's like u and a neighbor having the same game but u are forced to call eachother on the phone instead of just go and knock on his door, because there are sharks..demons...man eating pandas and so on between u and him. It's stupid...
Well EU and NA don't play together, you still have to chose where you want to play these are different servers.
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On November 03 2011 06:19 Taguchi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 20:29 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On October 31 2011 09:44 Taguchi wrote:
funny how d3 is going to be region free while sc2 isnt
really, id like to hear them explain this away
we couldnt create a gateway system for sc2 but did in the case of diablo because...
i bet they start waving their hands around screaming ESPORTS (and they'll need to scream so as not to have to listen to the obvious responses like "but we still have lag ANYWAY if we want to host a tourney with koreans, americans and euros!!")
anyway, good news! the RMAH being regionlocked is obviously ok, blizz couldnt possibly navigate through all different laws and regulations to make a global AH work, and nevermind different currencies and value of money elsewhere it never was a question of "can they make a gateway selection". as i said during beta already, the could enable that within days. bnet infrastructure recognizes accounts from other regions (like i can log into us battlenet with my acc and it shows up my games etc) and even the coding for that is done since the down under guys got access to us servers. they just dont want to. well good news i guess for d3. tho i care much less in d3 about it then in sc2. ive been around man i know what original bnet had the region lock for sc2 was, imo, an obvious money grab disguised as ESPORTS rationalizations and happy customers and whatever, as if running into a 150ms user every once in a while would anger people as much as not having the option to play with friends across the world did glad that diablo is doing away with all that
I honestly think it's a moneygrab, the number of people purchasing a second copy to play on NA etc servers is negglible. It's more to discourage to play on that server. You don't want to be faced against opponents who are lagging badly. Imagine if everyone could play on the NA server, and they do so. It would become laggier then it's now for sure. For that reason I can understand it.
Now, what if Blizzard didn't allow people from other regions to ladder (a eu guy not able to ladder on na ladder unless they have a na copy) and only for custom games. That at first sounds like a good solution right? Well no, people would start playing the custom mods that aren't available in their region. And I think everyone finds it super frustrating, again to get faced with lag (FFA for example is a lagfest sometimes, and that's on the same region!)
For that reason I do understand it, but it's not a ideal situation at all. I would love to play with my friends overseas but won't shell out money for another copy.
Now, what Blizzard could do is to restrict people that aren't in region to only create custom games which aren't public and only friends can be invited. But I'm afraid Blizzard is too lazy/Doesn't find it worth it implementing that.
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When will ppl understand that LAG is YOUR FAULT.
IF you have lag, then
90% it's YOUR FAULT
10% it's fault of your isp, which de facto IS YOUR FAULT
I used to play so many US games while I live in Europe and except server lag (which happens so rarely you can't imagine) I always played lagless. We're having a party with US friends and everybody is lagging except me. And my TCP packets have LONGER way than YOURS.
So for GOD'S SAKE learn to protect your computer and if you plan on playing games choose your ISP not only based upon maximum speed ONLY, but foremost an avg latency! Example? Company A offers 16Mbit/s for 30$ and company B offers 1Mbit/s for 25$. So which one is better? Obvious choice USUALLY is not the RIGHT ONE.
ps: I pay 18$ for 1Mbit/s which might sound horrendaly high for you, but past last SIX YEARS I had ONE 3 hour downtime and NO LAG AT ALL.
Learn2Choose ISP.
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Indeed, everyone complaining about lag with foreigners doesn't seem to realize that hey, uh, we play with these foreigners all the other times in other games with acceptable lag, we know this because they are our friends, sc2 is not any different.
Blizzard has repeatedly made bad decisions for sc2 as an esport, but they might be good business decisions in their opinion so there is nothing we can do about them without abandoning sc2.
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On December 13 2011 23:00 tommmmmmm wrote:
When will ppl understand that LAG is YOUR FAULT.
IF you have lag, then
90% it's YOUR FAULT
10% it's fault of your isp, which de facto IS YOUR FAULT
I used to play so many US games while I live in Europe and except server lag (which happens so rarely you can't imagine) I always played lagless. We're having a party with US friends and everybody is lagging except me. And my TCP packets have LONGER way than YOURS.
So for GOD'S SAKE learn to protect your computer and if you plan on playing games choose your ISP not only based upon maximum speed ONLY, but foremost an avg latency! Example? Company A offers 16Mbit/s for 30$ and company B offers 1Mbit/s for 25$. So which one is better? Obvious choice USUALLY is not the RIGHT ONE.
ps: I pay 18$ for 1Mbit/s which might sound horrendaly high for you, but past last SIX YEARS I had ONE 3 hour downtime and NO LAG AT ALL.
Learn2Choose ISP.
Nice shitty first post.
So lag is always 100% your fault ? Yeah right.
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On November 02 2011 05:59 JustTray wrote:
To those who don't understand why SC2 is region locked -
Ping/Lag is your time from your computer to the server. (possibly and back)
In games like SC2, being really far apart from the opponent (in client hosted games) or far from the server (in server hosted games) creates massive delay, throwing off the actions of the player.
In Diablo 3, you are not competing with other player, so if you choose to connect to a server that is very far away, the only one being punished is you. In Starcraft, I believe they set a floor of sorts to try to equalize the lag (for exmaple both players have minimum 160ms)
While you still hurt yourself by joining server hosted games in SC2, you can also cause the game itself to lag to allow you to catchup. I'm presuming Diablo will have no such compensation.
So for all the above reasons, Region locking is not really needed from a gameplay standpoint.
As mentioned, this will do very little to deter gold farming. It's not hard to get a US mailing address.
There is no lag in Diablo 3 as Diablo 3 is using the new lagless battle system. The game runs mostly clientside only with battle.net coming back to babysit you to make sure you arent cheating once every 1000ms or so.
People were playing Diablo 3 beta, connecting to US, while playing on a laptop in Australia tethered to a cellphone and experiencing no lag.
That is why it is region free. And thus all points of latency in this thread are moot unless they are talking about server to client lag, in which case there is nothing the client can do if the server is overloaded, which it will be.
Also distance to the Blizzard server is also largely irrelevant because Blizzard has been using backbones for years now.
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On December 14 2011 06:59 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:59 JustTray wrote:
To those who don't understand why SC2 is region locked -
Ping/Lag is your time from your computer to the server. (possibly and back)
In games like SC2, being really far apart from the opponent (in client hosted games) or far from the server (in server hosted games) creates massive delay, throwing off the actions of the player.
In Diablo 3, you are not competing with other player, so if you choose to connect to a server that is very far away, the only one being punished is you. In Starcraft, I believe they set a floor of sorts to try to equalize the lag (for exmaple both players have minimum 160ms)
While you still hurt yourself by joining server hosted games in SC2, you can also cause the game itself to lag to allow you to catchup. I'm presuming Diablo will have no such compensation.
So for all the above reasons, Region locking is not really needed from a gameplay standpoint.
As mentioned, this will do very little to deter gold farming. It's not hard to get a US mailing address. There is no lag in Diablo 3 as Diablo 3 is using the new lagless battle system. The game runs mostly clientside only with battle.net coming back to babysit you to make sure you arent cheating once every 1000ms or so. People were playing Diablo 3 beta, connecting to US, while playing on a laptop in Australia tethered to a cellphone and experiencing no lag. That is why it is region free. And thus all points of latency in this thread are moot unless they are talking about server to client lag, in which case there is nothing the client can do if the server is overloaded, which it will be. Also distance to the Blizzard server is also largely irrelevant because Blizzard has been using backbones for years now.
yo how can it be client-side only when you play co-op? i mean then you only get a glimpse of your friend every 1sec like you say? no that is not the case. i assume for single player mode what you say is true. however, for co-op i doubt it. if it is, then i have the utmost respect for blizzard's engineers.
in sc2 ladder is seerver handled, customs are p2p, always been like that since bnet1.0 (wc3)
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On December 14 2011 07:29 brokor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:59 Medrea wrote:On November 02 2011 05:59 JustTray wrote:
To those who don't understand why SC2 is region locked -
Ping/Lag is your time from your computer to the server. (possibly and back)
In games like SC2, being really far apart from the opponent (in client hosted games) or far from the server (in server hosted games) creates massive delay, throwing off the actions of the player.
In Diablo 3, you are not competing with other player, so if you choose to connect to a server that is very far away, the only one being punished is you. In Starcraft, I believe they set a floor of sorts to try to equalize the lag (for exmaple both players have minimum 160ms)
While you still hurt yourself by joining server hosted games in SC2, you can also cause the game itself to lag to allow you to catchup. I'm presuming Diablo will have no such compensation.
So for all the above reasons, Region locking is not really needed from a gameplay standpoint.
As mentioned, this will do very little to deter gold farming. It's not hard to get a US mailing address. There is no lag in Diablo 3 as Diablo 3 is using the new lagless battle system. The game runs mostly clientside only with battle.net coming back to babysit you to make sure you arent cheating once every 1000ms or so. People were playing Diablo 3 beta, connecting to US, while playing on a laptop in Australia tethered to a cellphone and experiencing no lag. That is why it is region free. And thus all points of latency in this thread are moot unless they are talking about server to client lag, in which case there is nothing the client can do if the server is overloaded, which it will be. Also distance to the Blizzard server is also largely irrelevant because Blizzard has been using backbones for years now. yo how can it be client-side only when you play co-op? i mean then you only get a glimpse of your friend every 1sec like you say? no that is not the case. i assume for single player mode what you say is true. however, for co-op i doubt it. if it is, then i have the utmost respect for blizzard's engineers. in sc2 ladder is seerver handled, customs are p2p, always been like that since bnet1.0 (wc3)
http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/latency-no-longer-a-factor-in-d3-combat
This is just combat I am talking about. Loot and all that is business as usual.
Update #2: I am extremely pleased to announce that we now have 100% confirmation that this is indeed correct! Latency no longer matters at all for combat! You can now safely be ecstatic without risk of getting your hopes up for nothing.
I assume your peers actions are subject to latency but that matters less. What matters most is that Battle.net doesnt need to be there to police the actions of every enemy on the screen and delay your every move.
So everyone can be happy that there is no lag in D3 "ever" and the fact that it is region free at the same time.
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the article still only mentions sinlg eplayer and all the videos are such. i guess we will wait 4 month to find out. i still believe that co-op with this system would be unplayable. i fight a gorup of monsters and they die. how does my partner know if my client contacts the server only once per sec or smth... also pvp could still be difficult using this system. so you slow down a mage but his client only gets a hold of it when it contacts the server? dunno all seems too sci-fi for me. single player is definetely the case though.
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There is no single player. And I have the beta and I can corroborate this as I have played with friends.
No lag. There really is nothing sci-fi about it. Everything is handled via the client and everything in the middle is filled with interpolation.
Other players actions are business as usual as I have said. If you want further proof of this there are a million VODs and stuff out there. There is zero PvM latency.
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That's a ridiculous statement as it breaks the laws of physics 
It's totally possible that Blizzard has learned the fine art of synching pseudorandom number generators!
But Blizzard didn't learn how to break the laws of physics so there will still be PvM lag in games with multiple P.
For instance consider this case: you are fighting a monster. You are going to die in 10 seconds if nothing intervenes. If your ally heals you or hits the monster in that window, you will win! So when lag happens, you will die, then undie dramatically and the monster is dead instead. Magic!
Case 2: You and your teammate are running from a monster. Monster locks on to your teammate, and you get to watch him chase it. But the monster's path to your teammate is based on your location, which your computer cannot predict. If your teammate lags then your computer will have different inputs into the monster AI, so the monster will behave differently, then the monster position will visibly lag whenever your teammate lags.
What is possible is that if your ally isn't on screen you won't see any lag.
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I don't think anything about the words "Client" and "Side" breaks the law of physics. And you are correct in that for random elements it appears that Blizzard has a way of granting the client the random seed, and then checking back on it to compare notes. Similar to how our Authenticators are offline and use random numbers yet they sync up with Blizzard.
I havent done an analysis on what happens if two peoples clients interpret monster actions as being different, which is what I assume your second case is about. Because I do not have two keys and two machines to look at. If there is a difference, i assume it doesnt break the game in any way and they have probably thought of that to begin with.
But you combatting whatever it is onscreen, has zero lag. Not "low." There is none. There are only large spikes when the system is going down. It isn't sci-fi. It isn't breaking physics. It isn't witches magic. It is client-side. This is honestly not difficult to believe and has been around for a long long time. And finally, thats why region unlocked makes sense.
Check any MP vod. You guys want me to make a video myself? I can do that.
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But, client side doesn't mean that there is no lag. Didn't you ever play Starcraft in lan mode? I did. Was there still lag? yup.
Maybe blizz can interpolate movement but you can't interpolate random input which is what having another player in the game using abilities on a cooldown is. Maybe blizz has even done the secret trick of slowly averaging out differences in monster position (gasp!) and letting the person whose being attacked's computer resolve the attack (horror!) {which generally aren't done because of haxoring but thats pretty easily detected via checksum} but the instances I noted are unavoidable. (Unless blizz decides for example, if the heal lagged you just stay dead LOL doesnt look like lag but it was)
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Its hard to tell because of the low framerate of the video but there is some positional lag around 5:50. But because the teammate is using non-locking spell that has DPS and not granular damage it's impossible to tell if the attack lags.
Not impressed.
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EPT
