On April 26 2009 12:57 MYM.Testie wrote: He's a worse version of MJ. I think that late in his career, we can call it that. He is obviously brilliant, but overall, there's just no arguing that MJ outclasses him in almost every category except a small margin in 3pt% and a meh margin on FT%. Especially come playoff time. MJ is the playoff king who is the definition of clutch. There really was no stopping him.
don't call him a worse version of MJ. he is kobe, and jordan is jordan. kobe is undoubtedly a better shooter than jordan. jordan gets the upper hand in driving to the basket. kobe is better in some areas, and jordan in others. overall, i agree that jordan is the best player to ever play the game, but let's not call kobe as an inferior version of jordan. i might actually say that in terms of pure offensive abilities, kobe is better.
I'm sure a lot of people would debate that, but IMO it's pretty true... the only thing you can say in Jordan's favor is that the game and rules were quite a bit different when Jordan played, nowadays scoring is made easier because the rules favor slashers more than they did... Jordan was able to put up some enormous scoring numbers really consistently (but then again, Jordan never played with people people who had to get 20ppg, I.E Kobe played with Shaq, played minimal minutes the first 3 years of his career, so you can't really make objective comparisons by stats), but in terms of offensive gifts and an ability to put the ball in the basket, Kobe is #1 ever imo. Jordan is probably 2nd, and Wade might be 3rd... LeBron is up there too, and I think Kevin Durant (MIGHT) be better than Kobe eventually.
Jordan has a significantly higher shooting %. And is superior in every category. How is he better offensively with less rebounds, assists, points per game, and FG%? Don't even get started on playoff statistics. It's pretty obvious Jordans jumper is better / driving to the basket. I think Jordan was superior in almost every category and even presence on the court. He is more valuable in nearly every aspect to a team. A better shooter? You sure you want to compare Jordans trademark fade away to Kobe's? ;p Even the turnover rate suggests that Kobe is more likely to make a mistake than Jordan.
Every statistic is better except 3 point % and ft%. And the FT% is so marginal it really is a non-factor. Whereas the other statistics have a much bigger impact. .5 points per 100 free throw difference, and even the .014 difference doesn't make up for the huge gap in the .042 FG% difference.
I really think these stats aren't questionable because you can start getting into the arguments of shit you can't prove. But this is just pure evidence.
Come playoff time it becomes even more evident: Kobe: 41.1 0.479 0.302 0.809 0.9 4.8 5.7 5.6 1.7 0.4 3.33 2.80 30.1 Jordan: 41.8 .487 .332 .828 1.7 4.7 6.4 5.7 2.1 0.9 3.05 3.00 33.4
What this means is that Jordan was superior in every way when push came to shove and you needed the definition of clutch. It's not a knock on Kobe. His stats and play is godlike. And I'm not saying he can't do ANYTHING better than Jordan. But anything he does do better seems very marginal in comparison and doesn't truly make him on even footing. So yes, a worse version of MJ because much of his game is modeled after MJ's.
You can criticize every player on earth for not being a team player or taking too many shots or really having an off night or bring up their weakest moments. But I think the stats speak for themselves. Stats are pure evidence and consistency. You don't walk up to Jaedong and tell him Luxury has a better ZvZ than him just because Luxury is the 2nd best ZvZer when the stats indicate something clearly different. He's recognized as the GOAT for a reason.
Testie is right - Jordan is actually a much better shooter than Kobe is. Even disregarding the "better" defenses played during the 90s what made Jordan a better shooter was his mid-range and back to the basket play. Kobe is the stereotypical slasher as he will pull up and shoot from anywhere (and make it). Jordan is a slightly different kind of shooter - a more inside and mid-range threat that will also hit from just about anywhere.
Almost the same kind of player, but Kobe is a deeper threat. Not that it matters as much because when it came playoff time MJ was going to hit from anywhere he felt like.
Wade is more like baby MJ in that while he's a slasher he's more of a driver than a pull up shooter.
Kevin Durant isn't really like any of them. In fact he reminds of Scottie Pippen: a reliable scoring threat on any given night that can handle the ball and rebound. Of course he isn't on Pippen's level yet because he doesn't have the defense and consistent killer attitude.
Kobe misses a lot of jumpers. So did Jordan. The FG% would indicate that while Jordan was the best driver of all time he missed to make up for that he hit roughly the same number of FG's. No argument on earth you can make can deliver the .042% difference on FG%.
Also an unfortunate argument that doesn't help Kobe's case:
If he is going to be considered a better shooter than MJ wouldn't you claim he's also the best offensive guard to ever play the game? Not easy as the 90s Bulls is one of, if not THE top basketball team to ever play in the NBA. If Kobe is going to be put on that level, surely the late 90s/00s Lakers with Shaq would have to be also right?
testie, everybody knows that nobody can match jordan's statistics. nobody. however, stop calling kobe the worse version of jordan. their games were different. jordan is jordan, the best player to ever play basketball. kobe is kobe, one of the greatest players ever. just because they are both shooting guards doesn't mean kobe is the "worse version of MJ." kobe's game is based more on jumpers, and he is unarguably better than jordan in that aspect. i am not even gonna bother talking about your starcraft example, because basketball is a whole another story. stop talking as if kobe played the exact same way as jordan and failed to meet the standards in every aspect. kobe plays the kobe game, not jordan's.
This is like the 30th time this season in this thread and the other that the Kobe/Jordan debate has come up. Seriously, how do you people still have anything new to say about it?
On April 26 2009 14:10 MYM.Testie wrote: Kobe misses a lot of jumpers. So did Jordan. The FG% would indicate that while Jordan was the best driver of all time he missed to make up for that he hit roughly the same number of FG's. No argument on earth you can make can deliver the .042% difference on FG%.
how does field goal percentage justify who the better shooter is? jordan's is higher because he drives more than kobe. players like gasol have the highest FG percentage because a lot of his shots come from the paint
On April 26 2009 14:13 tonight wrote: This is like the 30th time this season in this thread and the other that the Kobe/Jordan debate has come up. Seriously, how do you people still have anything new to say about it?
Haha.
because every once in a while guys like testie come out of nowhere to remind us that jordan is the best player ever. and make the kobe-jordan connection. it's so fucking annoying.
p.s. we all know jordan is the best ever. just don't go aroud calling kobe the "worse version of mj." let him be kobe, god.
Calm down. It wouldn't be any fun if people didn't talk about it and compare players. It's usually almost always in response to Kobe fans starting a comparison after all. Because Kobe fans want it, but it just ain't so.
Jordan's 51 point game at age 38 as a Wizard. Notice Jordan relies more on post up moves and pull up jumpers than Kobe. Kobe's signature move is drive parallel to the basket and hit the jump shot without slowing down.
Jordan's freaking tipping in follow-ups and creating space vertically more than Kobe when he's 7 years older than Kobe is now. Kobe relies far less on his athleticism at this point in his career and more on honed perimeter skills on difficult to defend moves. As a result, Jordan shoots closer to the basket and has a higher field goal and rebound percentage. I don't think Jordan could shoot Kobe's shots as well as Kobe can, and I don't think Kobe could pull off Jordan's pull-up and skills in the paint.
Kobe rejecting Jordan in the all star game. This is not to show Kobe > Jordan, but to note Jordan posts straight up, while Kobe tends to fall away a little.
actually it sort of pisses me off when somebody out of nowhere has to remind us that jordan was better than kobe, after an unbelievable performance by him tonight.
This is the game with Tiger Woods right? Where say he would hit a ball with a stick and run to the bases? And if a basemen tries to tag you, you dive and hope the ref gives them a card? And then score a touchdown after body checking an opposing player into the glass?
The mavs and spurs game was exciting. Tony Parker was carrying his team but the mavs have many weapons of course. I wish the mavs played as good as this all year. We'll see how my mavs will go. We'll see how this series turns out. I quit watching the liquibition just to watch the mavs/spurs game btw. GO MAVS!!!
Oh and plz don't compare jordan to kobe in any way. If jordan played kobe while he was in his prime kobe would have no idea how to outbeat jordan.
EPT
