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I was on the internet this morning when this article showed up when i was browsing. What you think about this?
"One of the world’s most respected scientists is embroiled in an extraordinary row after claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people.
James Watson, a Nobel Prize winner for his part in discovering the structure of DNA, has provoked outrage with his comments, made ahead of his arrival in Britain today.
More fierce criticism of the eminent scientist is expected as he embarks on a number of engagements to promote a new book ‘Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science’. Among his first commitments is a speech to a London audience at the Science Museum on Friday. The event is sold out.
Dr Watson, who runs one of America’s leading scientific research institutions, made the controversial remarks in an interview in The Sunday Times. "
Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2677098.ece?token=null&offset=0
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+ Show Spoiler + One of the world’s most respected scientists is embroiled in an extraordinary row after claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people.
James Watson, a Nobel Prize winner for his part in discovering the structure of DNA, has provoked outrage with his comments, made ahead of his arrival in Britain today.
More fierce criticism of the eminent scientist is expected as he embarks on a number of engagements to promote a new book ‘Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science’. Among his first commitments is a speech to a London audience at the Science Museum on Friday. The event is sold out.
Dr Watson, who runs one of America’s leading scientific research institutions, made the controversial remarks in an interview in The Sunday Times. Background
The 79-year-old geneticist said he was “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really.". He said he hoped that everyone was equal, but countered that “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.
He says that you should not discriminate on the basis of colour, because “there are many people of colour who are very talented, but don’t promote them when they haven’t succeeded at the lower level”. He writes that “there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so”.
He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.
The newly formed Equality and Human Rights Commission is studying Dr Watson’s remarks “in full”.
Keith Vaz, the Labour chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, said today: “It is sad to see a scientist of such achievement making such baseless, unscientific and extremely offensive comments.
“I am sure the scientific community will roundly reject what appear to be Dr Watson’s personal prejudices. These comments serve as a reminder of the attitudes which can still exist at the highest professional levels.”
Dr Watson was hailed as achieving one of the greatest single scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century when he worked at the University of Cambridge in the 1950s and 1960s, forming part of the team which discovered the structure of DNA.
He shared the 1962 Nobel Prize for medicine with his British colleague Francis Crick and New Zealand-born Maurice Wilkins.
He has served for 50 years as a director of the Cold Spring Harbour Laboratory on Long Island, considered a world leader in research into cancer and genetics.
Dr Watson is no stranger to controversy. He has been reported in the past saying that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual.
In addition, he has suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, proposing a theory that black people have higher libidos.
He also claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured, saying: “People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would be great.” Background
Commenting on Dr Watson’s current views about race, Steven Rose, a professor of biological sciences at the Open University, said: “This is Watson at his most scandalous. He has said similar things about women before but I have never heard him get into this racist terrain.
He added: “If he knew the literature in the subject he would know he was out of his depth scientifically, quite apart from socially and politically.”
A spokeswoman for the Science Museum said it was looking into “things” concerning the security of the event on Friday.
She said: “This kind of thing always generates debate.”
James Watson speaking engagements in UK
You can see and hear James Watson talking about his new book Avoid Boring People at the following venues:
Friday, October 19
12.30-2pm Blackwell, Wellcome Collection – book signing only 6.30-7.30pm Imax Cinema at the Science Museum – talk chaired by Professor Richard Morris
Sunday, October 21
12-1.30pm Barter Books, Alnwick – book signing
6pm Centre for Life, Newcastle – talk chaired by Robin McKie Background
Monday, October 22
PUBLICATION DAY
6pm Assembly Hall, 1 Mound Place, Edinburgh – event part of the Edinburgh University Enlightenment Series of Lectures with Ian Wilmut, chaired by David Porteous
Tuesday, October 23
7.30pm The Union Society Debating Chamber, Cambridge – in conversation with Simon Baron-Cohen, chaired by Matthew Jarvis
Wednesday, October 24
12.45-2.15pm Bristol 'Festival of Ideas' at St. George's – talk chaired by Professor Eric Thomas
7pm The Sheldonian Theatre, Oxford – talk chaired by Richard Dawkins
Doesn't surprise me.
Not because I'm racist or anything. But look at every race, every has different features and stereotypes for a reason. They are not 100%, but for the majority it can be some what true.
As much as people want to believe in equality and 'every man was created equal' its not true, or else everyone would be playing pro football and doing rocket science.
Why is it that Blacks outnumber any other race in pro sports? Why are there like no mexican/asian basketball players? Why are the most famous scientists and shit usually white or asian? Why are mexicans such hard workers?
I mean there has to be a reason why blacks were chosen to be slaves over other whites or middle eastern people. Also why is it that way back then most of africa was still uncivilized compared to the rest of the world?
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thedeadhaji
39472 Posts
keep this thread civil or else it's getting closed.
i'm talking to future posters in this thread.
fyi here is his direct quote, which makes him sound much more reasonable tbh.
The 79-year-old geneticist said he was “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really.". He said he hoped that everyone was equal, but countered that “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.
He says that you should not discriminate on the basis of colour, because “there are many people of colour who are very talented, but don’t promote them when they haven’t succeeded at the lower level”. He writes that “there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so”.
He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.
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Doesn't exactly surprise me either, I do agree every race has its own traits and attributes.. nice find though
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What a racist fuck I wonder if he was always that way or has just gone senile in his old age. He must be at least partially senile in order to say it so publicly. The fact is there is no evidence to suggest that black people are less intelligent. Specially considering we dont even have a truly accurate way of measuring intelligence int he first place. I can't beleive a man of science with a sound mind would make such a completely un-scientifically grounded claim. Dr. Watson has clearly gone insane from old age. Especially if you consider that genetically speaking, african people and whites are basically identical. By this I mean that there is more genetic diversity within the same race than outside of it. Also, charlie, it pains me to see you so ignorant. Go buy a copy of Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. It answers all of those questions, scientically and is beautiful written.
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Belgium8305 Posts
None of the articles I've seen about this actually mention any scientific studies that could support or disprove his claim...
The opinion of the general scientific community seems a lot more interesting and important to me than what this one professor is saying. He certainly is a distinguished scholar, but seems to have a talent for generating controversy.
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this is like the oldest 'news' in the world.... in other news the chinese are pretty short, did you know?
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On October 19 2007 08:16 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: What a racist fuck Nah
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This could be said only because most black people are poor and poor people tend to have much less education and therefore are less intelligent.
I would also like that say that I believe culture to have a far larger impact on intelligence than race (if race has any at all).
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Belgium8305 Posts
Also, to those for whom it seems to be a foregone conclusion: if you're drawing on your own experiences, don't forget to factor in socioeconomic factors and the perhaps biased nature of your observations.
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On October 19 2007 08:10 CharlieMurphy wrote: Doesn't surprise me.
Not because I'm racist or anything. But look at every race, every has different features and stereotypes for a reason. They are not 100%, but for the majority it can be some what true.
As much as people want to believe in equality and 'every man was created equal' its not true, or else everyone would be playing pro football and doing rocket science.
Why is it that Blacks outnumber any other race in pro sports? Why are there like no mexican/asian basketball players? Why are the most famous scientists and shit usually white or asian? Why are mexicans such hard workers?
I mean there has to be a reason why blacks were chosen to be slaves over other whites or middle eastern people. Also why is it that way back then most of africa was still uncivilized compared to the rest of the world? I think it has to do with attitude and and working hard instead of not being intelligent enough, generally black people are lazy and doesnt work hard imo, there are exeptions also i seen incredible black scientists and other type of professionals. I dont think race is the problem here
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On October 19 2007 08:20 TesisMech wrote: I think it has to do with attitude and and working hard instead of not being intelligent enough, generally black people are lazy and doesnt work hard imo Wow.
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I dont see how what he said was racist, I mean, he talked about Africa, and African Americans, but there are plenty of white African Americans (people who are from African culture and families) and its not just against black people.
In my own opinion though, I think black people in general (as in, your average black person) has difficulty understanding certains things in the world, but, so does the average white person. I work in customer service and about 40-45% of my complaints about prices of items because the person cannot comprehend what it means, are from black people. but, the other 60% is split like 30% and 30% between asians and white people, so its not really a good basis to put it on. I just think that black people may just have a harder time comprehending certain topics compared to whites, and vice versa.
Also, as one of the comments someone posted in the thoughts after the article, notice how no one comments on how asians are generally smarter than whites because they have a more intensive schooling? But when we comment on blacks it all of a sudden becomes racist =/.
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statistically black people do poorer than white people. also in terms of income they are behind also. and it depends a lot on what you define intelligence as.
hmmm... but the smartest people in my classes are eastern european. so maybe normal white people are dumber than eastern european people.
and also asians are pretty good. 99% of my TAs are asian. so Asian people > white people ez.
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i would say in general, every ethnicity (not race, only ONE RACE, human race) has its pros and cons. for example blacks r genetically superior in explosive sports such as track, basketball. mainly due to different muscle fibre and genetic make up. caucasians usually tall and big. good at power/physical sports. asians usually small and short, good at technical sports such as ping pong, gymnastics. if u examine the physical traits carefully u can deduce what each ethnicity is good at. small ppl can move around easily and quicker, but weaker not much physical strength. large ppl move around slower but more power. u have to look at everything in general, u cant just bring out exceptions. it does not represent the whole. everyone and every ethnicity is not equal, and that is reality. truth hurts, just work with what u have and be the best u can be so u wont have any regrets.
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On October 19 2007 08:19 prOxi.swAMi wrote:Nah Nah? Wow what a shitty post. Hope you get a temp ban. If you're going to disagree at least have some reason why. Back up your statements.
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On October 19 2007 08:21 omgbnetsux wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2007 08:20 TesisMech wrote: I think it has to do with attitude and and working hard instead of not being intelligent enough, generally black people are lazy and doesnt work hard imo Wow. asdf dont cherry pick my post. Im talking of personally experience, where I live i dont see many black people that study hard. I dont wanna come up as a racist. in fact i think its BULLSHIT what this study says. It has to do with attitude no matter the race.
TO Charliemurphy: No i didnt say laziness makes you less intelligent or stupid. I said attitude is important for your life. Its common sense, if you doesnt want to study it doesnt mean your not intelligent, it just means your attitude is bad
GJ deadhahhi or w e for banning me, did u just ban me for u to acquire that joke ( " you can be lazy for a week") lol i have nothing against you but the decision u made of banning me for refuting this study and thinking its bullshit doesnt make any sense stop banning people cause of u misinterpreting it.
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On October 19 2007 08:21 omgbnetsux wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2007 08:20 TesisMech wrote: I think it has to do with attitude and and working hard instead of not being intelligent enough, generally black people are lazy and doesnt work hard imo Wow. rofl I can see your expression right now
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United States1653 Posts
So how did he determine this anyway? Unless there's some gene that determines intelligence, this seems to be just a stupid stereotype.
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I don't think it is true, but I think he makes a good point - you cannot simply push ideas of equality just because of their political and ideological convenience. You should treat all people as equal regardless of sex and race, and they should always been given the same opportunity to succeed - but there is no law which says all men must be biologically equal.
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i forsee this topic being closed
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I think black people have the same potential for intelligence as anyone. It's just that many times the environment or culture they grow up in many times doesn't stress the importance of intelligence. Now for the matter of hard working. I'll tell you that I have worked for the same retail store for over two years now, and every black person that has been hired intomy department has had issues with attendence, keeping on task, and knowing processes needed to do our job correctly.One of them has been fired, and one is shortly going to be if he keeps up this act. I think it is just an problem that stems from the culture. Why work for the white man? Ha ha I dunno.
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On October 19 2007 08:20 TesisMech wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2007 08:10 CharlieMurphy wrote: Doesn't surprise me.
Not because I'm racist or anything. But look at every race, every has different features and stereotypes for a reason. They are not 100%, but for the majority it can be some what true.
As much as people want to believe in equality and 'every man was created equal' its not true, or else everyone would be playing pro football and doing rocket science.
Why is it that Blacks outnumber any other race in pro sports? Why are there like no mexican/asian basketball players? Why are the most famous scientists and shit usually white or asian? Why are mexicans such hard workers?
I mean there has to be a reason why blacks were chosen to be slaves over other whites or middle eastern people. Also why is it that way back then most of africa was still uncivilized compared to the rest of the world? I think it has to do with attitude and and working hard instead of not being intelligent enough, generally black people are lazy and doesnt work hard imo, there are exeptions also i seen incredible black scientists and other type of professionals. I dont think race is the problem here
So you're basically saying the same thing as me but just blaming the stupidity on their laziness? Just like I said, There are mutations or some exceptions to this just like with most rules/laws.
Furthermore like someone pointed ou culture has to weigh heavily on the increase in intelligence just like many other things such as physical abilities etc. So the blacks grow up in tough neighborhoods etc. They still make their own culture so the intelligence is still biologically evolving slower.
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On October 19 2007 08:20 gLyo wrote: This could be said only because most black people are poor and poor people tend to have much less education and therefore are less intelligent.
I would also like that say that I believe culture to have a far larger impact on intelligence than race (if race has any at all).
That depends heavily on what you define as 'intelligence'. If you consider it as something a person is born with (dictated by genes), then there is no reason to believe that it can't vary amongst races just as skin colour or height varies between races. But still, classifying all 'black' people as having generally lower intelligence seems incredibly hard to prove, especially since scientific evidence shows that Africans have the highest variation of genes amongst all humans.
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I'm just surprised this was the man who discovered the structure of DNA, which is pretty damn impressive O_o.
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On October 19 2007 08:26 Aphelion wrote: I don't think it is true, but I think he makes a good point - you cannot simply push ideas of equality just because of their political and ideological convenience. You should treat all people as equal regardless of sex and race, and they should always been given the same opportunity to succeed - but there is no law which says all men must be biologically equal.
I agree with both you and him on this point. Although he might not have taken the best route on trying to accomplish what he is saying, its still pretty deep.
Also, did anyone finish the article? This guy definitely has some spunk.
Dr Watson is no stranger to controversy. He has been reported in the past saying that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual.
In addition, he has suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, proposing a theory that black people have higher libidos.
He also claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured, saying: “People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would be great.”
That is pretty funny to say the least.
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This thread is already pretty ridiculous.
Also, haji, if you want reasonable:
Dr Watson is no stranger to controversy. He has been reported in the past saying that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual.
I'm surprised there have been so many 'doesn't surprise me' responses. Really, you delightful young men (see, I'm keeping it civil)?
Why is it Africa is still uncivilized? Because it was plundered and raped for hundreds of years? Because the strife is not over ? Are you saying that Africa's hardships have been self-imposed? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying!
[edit: Also, before someone claims that Africa was dominated because its people were less intelligent: ability to wage war is the end all be all indicator of intelligence? NO. But it can have a cataclysmic effect on society and culture.]
Why do blacks outnumber other races in pro sports? Why is the world so simple to you? Because, being an obviously oppressed race (please, disagree with me here!) over the past couple of hundreds of years has opened up exactly the same number of opportunities for them as us (whites, et al) in all sectors of business, right!? Sports is the only way out for a LOT of poor black people, for one.
If mexicans are such hard workers, why weren't their ilk slaves? Whats the gene that separates mexican's hard work being applicable only in wal-mart to blacks work in sports(entering professional sports is apparently not hard!)?
Maybe we didn't exactly come to our conclusion of who should be slaves based on sound empirical data! I mean, I know us whites are pretty f'n smart but, being as smart as I obviously am, I can admit every decision we make isn't the right one!
TesisMech, though what he said is poorly articulated (I hope), is closer to the truth. I guess. Cultural, societal and fuck - issues of the history of civilizations are being relatively ignored.
That said, are they? I can't find where he actually articulates the basis for this claim that black people are less intelligent! I guess its just supposed to be self-evident.
It's pretty obvious that the guy generally ignored all possibility of LIFE shaping a human being and assumes the person is who he is from birth - gay, stupid, beautiful.
In other words, the guy is fucking wacky.
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On October 19 2007 08:18 Mimi wrote: this is like the oldest 'news' in the world.... in other news the chinese are pretty short, did you know?
Excuse me "hagi", you have some SERIOUS issues with misunderstanding people if you think I'm 'trying to be smart' with the above comment and that it warrants a ban.
You are accomplishing NOTHING by banning people over such rediculous and flippant things and are often so close to the border of banning people for the wrong reasons that you are overstepping this border more often than many people feel you should be.
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United States20661 Posts
There've also been studies showing that blacks do worse than whites on bar exams, even with same schooling.
While it seems quite racist, the empirical evidence does back Watson's statements. Let's use blacks vs Asians as comparison.
People don't get angry by the fact that there is no affirmative action in pro sports. So why does there need to be AA in other fields? The best and most qualified should get the job in every possible discipline.
So black people are better American pro sports than yellow people. I can deal with that. But don't then say that black people are also just as successful in tech/intel/sciences as yellow people, because then you've asserted dominance. It's a horrible double-standard.
It's not to say that all blacks are more athletic than all Asians - just most of them seem to be. The other comparison - that Asians are more scholarly - is also not absolute. The trend simply points that way.
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I think we should stop nery white guys going to Japan to breed, and bring over some athletic blacks to stud. We'd have some fucking smart and fast babies.
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Charlie..you seriously need to go to college.
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I wonder what scientific studies he is refering to.
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Well guys here is my honest analysis and conclusion.
First of all, I just want to say that I don't believe any race to be significantly more or less intelligent than the others. I am sure that we have all encountered people with various degrees of intelligence from all races so the individual variance is just to great for a person to claim than "black people are generally not as intelligent as whites." Second, since we are all homo sapiens, or the same species, then the individual variance of most people could not possibily be great enough that it would create these different classes based on skin color. I mean seriously, how many of you guys can actually tell apart a person with an IQ of 100 and another person with an IQ of 105, or 110.
My second major point is that people from America generally seem to have much more racial stereotypes despite the country being most racially diverse because everyone seems to be doing what they do best. A lot of people in this country believe that if you're Asian, then you're smart, and that's true. Why? Because your only contact has been with Asians in America. If you were to travel to China, or better yet, live there, then you would see that this stereotype is completely bullshit because there are people there just like some of the retards back home. And similarly, black people, being generally poor in America, will do what they can to get by, and so they play football and basketball or run track. But if you were to live in Africam away from the social pressures of the US, I am sure you would see black boys with the greatest amibitions to go to school and maybe one day get a nice job or something like that.
Do you guys agree?
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United States20661 Posts
TFW, was that really necessary?
It's not like this is an oft-taught topic in uni anyways. Hell, Summers was removed for saying that historically males have done better than females in science and math.
There's just way too much political correctness in this nation.
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Man, this thread could go bad so easily...
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Canada9720 Posts
On October 19 2007 08:10 CharlieMurphy wrote:+ Show Spoiler + One of the world’s most respected scientists is embroiled in an extraordinary row after claiming that black people are less intelligent than white people.
James Watson, a Nobel Prize winner for his part in discovering the structure of DNA, has provoked outrage with his comments, made ahead of his arrival in Britain today.
More fierce criticism of the eminent scientist is expected as he embarks on a number of engagements to promote a new book ‘Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science’. Among his first commitments is a speech to a London audience at the Science Museum on Friday. The event is sold out.
Dr Watson, who runs one of America’s leading scientific research institutions, made the controversial remarks in an interview in The Sunday Times. Background
The 79-year-old geneticist said he was “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really.". He said he hoped that everyone was equal, but countered that “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.
He says that you should not discriminate on the basis of colour, because “there are many people of colour who are very talented, but don’t promote them when they haven’t succeeded at the lower level”. He writes that “there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so”.
He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.
The newly formed Equality and Human Rights Commission is studying Dr Watson’s remarks “in full”.
Keith Vaz, the Labour chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, said today: “It is sad to see a scientist of such achievement making such baseless, unscientific and extremely offensive comments.
“I am sure the scientific community will roundly reject what appear to be Dr Watson’s personal prejudices. These comments serve as a reminder of the attitudes which can still exist at the highest professional levels.”
Dr Watson was hailed as achieving one of the greatest single scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century when he worked at the University of Cambridge in the 1950s and 1960s, forming part of the team which discovered the structure of DNA.
He shared the 1962 Nobel Prize for medicine with his British colleague Francis Crick and New Zealand-born Maurice Wilkins.
He has served for 50 years as a director of the Cold Spring Harbour Laboratory on Long Island, considered a world leader in research into cancer and genetics.
Dr Watson is no stranger to controversy. He has been reported in the past saying that a woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual.
In addition, he has suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, proposing a theory that black people have higher libidos.
He also claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured, saying: “People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would be great.” Background
Commenting on Dr Watson’s current views about race, Steven Rose, a professor of biological sciences at the Open University, said: “This is Watson at his most scandalous. He has said similar things about women before but I have never heard him get into this racist terrain.
He added: “If he knew the literature in the subject he would know he was out of his depth scientifically, quite apart from socially and politically.”
A spokeswoman for the Science Museum said it was looking into “things” concerning the security of the event on Friday.
She said: “This kind of thing always generates debate.”
James Watson speaking engagements in UK
You can see and hear James Watson talking about his new book Avoid Boring People at the following venues:
Friday, October 19
12.30-2pm Blackwell, Wellcome Collection – book signing only 6.30-7.30pm Imax Cinema at the Science Museum – talk chaired by Professor Richard Morris
Sunday, October 21
12-1.30pm Barter Books, Alnwick – book signing
6pm Centre for Life, Newcastle – talk chaired by Robin McKie Background
Monday, October 22
PUBLICATION DAY
6pm Assembly Hall, 1 Mound Place, Edinburgh – event part of the Edinburgh University Enlightenment Series of Lectures with Ian Wilmut, chaired by David Porteous
Tuesday, October 23
7.30pm The Union Society Debating Chamber, Cambridge – in conversation with Simon Baron-Cohen, chaired by Matthew Jarvis
Wednesday, October 24
12.45-2.15pm Bristol 'Festival of Ideas' at St. George's – talk chaired by Professor Eric Thomas
7pm The Sheldonian Theatre, Oxford – talk chaired by Richard Dawkins
Doesn't surprise me. Not because I'm racist or anything. But look at every race, every has different features and stereotypes for a reason. They are not 100%, but for the majority it can be some what true. As much as people want to believe in equality and 'every man was created equal' its not true, or else everyone would be playing pro football and doing rocket science. Why is it that Blacks outnumber any other race in pro sports? Why are there like no mexican/asian basketball players? Why are the most famous scientists and shit usually white or asian? Why are mexicans such hard workers? I mean there has to be a reason why blacks were chosen to be slaves over other whites or middle eastern people. Also why is it that way back then most of africa was still uncivilized compared to the rest of the world? jeez and i thought that you were dumb before. bravo
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this thread should be closed.
anyone who agrees with OP is a moron.
YOU KNOW WHO THIS MAN IS? He is Neil fucking DeGrasse Tyson. He is probably one of the smartest men in astronomy right now.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On October 19 2007 08:42 Sensation wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2007 08:18 Mimi wrote: this is like the oldest 'news' in the world.... in other news the chinese are pretty short, did you know? Excuse me "hagi", you have some SERIOUS issues with misunderstanding people if you think I'm 'trying to be smart' with the above comment and that it warrants a ban. You are accomplishing NOTHING by banning people over such rediculous and flippant things and are often so close to the border of banning people for the wrong reasons that you are overstepping this border more often than many people feel you should be.
You're Mimi?
Your comment was inappropriate and out of place. Haji said right away that this thread was to be kept civil and you decided to act like a shithead.
Follow the rules ok?
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It's pretty obvious that the guy generally ignored all possibility of LIFE shaping a human being and assumes the person is who he is from birth - gay, stupid, beautiful. Well someone can definately be all those things from birth. Homosexuality is another topic as it doesn't have much to do with biology, but one can definately be born with a lesser intellectual capacity then another. I find this topic actually really interesting because not so long ago, we had a similar local controversy where a psychiatrist (Dr. Mailloux if you live in QC) claimed on prime time T.V that black people were born intellectually inferior to white people. Of course everyone jumped on the racism bandwagon without even learning more about it. He was seen as an racist elitist and got his right to practice removed for that incident.
It's just interesting that it pops up somewhere else! Also I find it quite funny that even in science, where scientists are supposed to show skepticism but not let any values cloud their judgement through the scientific method, argue against that theory by calling that Nobel prize winner a racist and dismiss his findings. I'm not saying I agree with him, nor do I support him. But he posed an interesting subject that is WAY TOO taboo in our society. People of certain regions are taller, shorter, stronger and the list goes on... Is it so hard to imagine that perhaps it's possible that a certain blood-line could have reduced intelligence compared to the rest of the world? I don't think it is that far of a stretch.
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Also just a thing to add, geographical barriers have historically influenced and affected the fate of the African people and the entire continent for centuries. The location of Africa put it at a disadvantage, as they were not able to fully maximize the potential of the silk road. This caused Africa to be conquered by European powers as they had perfected gun powder and had higher technology at the time. Another thing to add is that the African people are diverse, and they all had different lifestyles to combat malaria and other diseases. As the Europeans came in and colonized it, people of different tribal groups were shoved together and forced to live according to a European western model society. This could be an explanation as to why there is so much chaos on the continent. Different ethnic African groups were treated by different standards which subsequently raised inequality. To say that all this social chaos in Africa was self-imposed, as someone had already pointed out, and also because they were somehow biologically inferior intellectually thus it lead to their present day fate today; is simply stupendous, ignorant, and idiotic.
Africa was shaped by bad circumstances at the wrong time.
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Well... I don't want to get involved in this talk of intelligence being determined by ethnicity because it makes no fucking sense, but please do know that Watson and Crick are largely considered as having stolen data from other researchers who were independently looking into the DNA structure. They just published it first. That is how I've always heard the story, from independent professors.
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
i am going to try to express myself as unbiased and civilized as possible and if you are not in the mood or have the capability to objectively think then please skip this.
we are different. you have to face this fact. people who say that we are all equal perhaps want to oversimplify things and not want to go into lengthy conversations with people who are not able to grasp that concept. it is said by politicians to gain votes. it is said by parents to make their children less violent. being non rascist is politically correct and i absolutely agree that a person should not be judged by the color of their skin but by their ability.
however, being rascist is very different from recognizing the differences between different races (or which ever category it should be, species, family, kingdom...). asians tend to be shorter. caucasians are taller. people with darker skin are more tolerant to direct sunlight. an asian person's body is more suited for extracting calcium from fish and vegetables whereas caucasians are more suited for dairy products. even the average penis sizes for different peoples are different (i am not 100% on these things but i read them somewhere)
we have come to recognize the differences between us but we have still yet to touch upon the topic of genetic intelligence. why? because it causes too much hassle. it is much easier to sweep it under the mattress and say that we are all equal, than to grudge and debate, where the people will be more driven by their own emotions than logic. the outcome will surely be unpleasant for someone (as is being labeled the race with the shortest average penis)
i do not and would not look down upon others because they are of a race less intelligent than the race i am. however i will not pretend that the difference is not present. i will help them in any way i can, much the same as i help the elderly across the road, offer the pregnant woman my seat and bring a little happiness into a group of orphans. i do not pretend that the person is not old, nor that the woman is carrying a load and is in need of a seat, nor that the orphans are missing a great deal of support in their lives.
however i do look down upon the people who wince when they see mentally retarded persons, or try to look as if they do not see a blind person in need of help.
i just dont like people who try to be "the peace-keeper" and say that we are all equal, that countries are actually not negotiating taxes, tariffs and immigration everyday, that america did not invade iraq for oil, that china is not going around to all the oil rich countries for the oil or that global warming does not exist. it is all real and happening and we need to wake up in this decade or the next.
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On October 19 2007 08:50 Jklhfdas wrote: Well... I don't want to get involved in this talk of intelligence being determined by ethnicity because it makes no fucking sense, but please do know that Watson and Crick are largely considered as having stolen data from other researchers who were independently looking into the DNA structure. They just published it first. That is how I've always heard the story, from independent professors.
Why do we need to 'know' this? As much as I think that the comments of this expert scientist to be coming from a place of ignorance, you're putting a pretty damning fact out there that is coming from the same place. If you don't have proof that he stole it, please don't state that you have 'independent' sources. It doesn't matter if you have sources or not, if you can't provide then don't say anything. You're no better off than he is.
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On October 19 2007 08:50 OctoPuSs wrote:Show nested quote +It's pretty obvious that the guy generally ignored all possibility of LIFE shaping a human being and assumes the person is who he is from birth - gay, stupid, beautiful. Well someone can definately be all those things from birth.
Of course! But would you agree that life experience can also have a major effect on people's intelligence, appearance, sexuality, etc etc?
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On October 19 2007 08:43 Last Romantic wrote: There've also been studies showing that blacks do worse than whites on bar exams, even with same schooling.
While it seems quite racist, the empirical evidence does back Watson's statements. Let's use blacks vs Asians as comparison.
People don't get angry by the fact that there is no affirmative action in pro sports. So why does there need to be AA in other fields? The best and most qualified should get the job in every possible discipline.
So black people are better American pro sports than yellow people. I can deal with that. But don't then say that black people are also just as successful in tech/intel/sciences as yellow people, because then you've asserted dominance. It's a horrible double-standard.
It's not to say that all blacks are more athletic than all Asians - just most of them seem to be. The other comparison - that Asians are more scholarly - is also not absolute. The trend simply points that way.
Yeah I have to agree with this.
If you say Asians are genetically inferior in sports there is no controversy and there is no racist outcry.
The double standard is horrible.
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On October 19 2007 08:48 Rev0lution wrote:this thread should be closed. anyone who agrees with OP is a moron. YOU KNOW WHO THIS MAN IS? He is Neil fucking DeGrasse Tyson. He is probably one of the smartest men in astronomy right now.
I think I understand where you are coming from but you are totally missing the point of what Dr Watson is saying. He never once said that black people don't have the ability to process intelligent thoughts. Even if he did say that one cannot discount the presence of anomalies. Overall I would say, as someone has already mentioned, that historically black athletes have dominated track and field. However as of right now the best 400 runner is white and the best 110 m hurdler is chinese. Does that change the fact that black athletes have dominated track and field sprints? No not at all, they are merely exceptions to the rule.
Regardless, for him to make a claim like this is totally off the wall. However one cannot say that he is totally misguided. None of us know what type of research he has performed and what numbers he is tossing around. I don't in anyway think that his research would prove what he said, but once again we don't know the entire story.
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It is recognized by many scientist that intelligence is a product of genes + enviroment
I would avoid this study if the experiments were made with IQ tests. I think anyone could score a 160 on IQ if they were raised "correctly"
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If you take the average intelligence of all white people and all black people then im sure they wont be EXACTLY the same. One side has to be a bit ahead of the other. I dont think the gap is that big. Maybe it even changes with generations. However I think its irrelevant even if it was bigger than that. The differance between individuals within any group is so much bigger than the differance between the average of both groups that it just doesnt matter.
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Suppose he's right and black or dark skinned or whatever people's potential for intelligence is lower than that of the lighter coloured folk.
What does it matter? NOBODY is living up to their potential. Black people seem to be able to reason quite well.
It doesn't matters whether he's right or not, it's just that his subject is insignificant, and he's an unenlightened prick for putting time to research this and publicize this shit, regardless of how much he knows or how much DNA analysis he can do.
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isn't the scientist referring exclusively to africans, rather than black people as a race? maybe the OP and articles are spun in a way that sound racist, yeah?
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thedeadhaji
39472 Posts
An appropriate conclusion:
Nobel laureate biologist Jim Watson apologized "unreservedly" Thursday for stating that black people were not as intelligent as whites, saying he was "mortified" by the comments attributed to him.
"I cannot understand how I could have said what I am quoted as having said," Watson said during an appearance at the Royal Society in London.
"I can certainly understand why people, reading those words, have reacted in the ways that they have."
"To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologize unreservedly. That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief,"
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/10/18/nobel.apology/index.html from ChoboPeon
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
completely irrelevant but i have no where else to put it
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