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I don't think anyone was more dominant than Serral during that 1.5-2 year stretch where he was winning against the very best Koreans with ease.
No disrespect to players like MVP, but he won during a time where SC2 wasn't quite fully figured out.
Innovation and Maru also come into mind but that's debatable and Serral has bested both of them in the past in their match-ups together.
The only argument you have against Serral is that he hasn't won a Korean GSL which I think isn't a great argument because:
1. Serral has already proven in history that he's dismantled top Koreans with little trouble and has a stash of trophies to prove that including the most prestigious trophy in that 2018 WCS Finals win.
2. How is it fair conditions for him to compete overseas in an unfamiliar environment where the Koreans he's facing are all in their comfort zone at home?
IMO he's the G.O.A.T. What do you guys think?
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I think I am amongst the biggest Serral fanatics out there, and to me he is the GOAT with the way he played, the moments he displayed grace, innovation, speed, decisiveness, all at the same time, with a consistency which was crazy. Still to me, now he needs (and oh boy I think he can) to win the Global Finals (or what replaces them) again to be declared the GOAT in an unanimous, undisputable fashion. In the NBA they compare rings and MVPs, in tennis grand slams (but there is no region lock on them), in my opinion the tool of measurement for us is the Global Finals. And I am sure he will get that trophy again.
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On July 30 2020 05:44 StuDToSs wrote:
I don't think anyone was more dominant than Serral during that 1.5-2 year stretch where he was winning against the very best Koreans with ease.
No disrespect to players like MVP, but he won during a time where SC2 wasn't quite fully figured out.
Innovation and Maru also come into mind but that's debatable and Serral has bested both of them in the past in their match-ups together.
The only argument you have against Serral is that he hasn't won a Korean GSL which I think isn't a great argument because:
1. Serral has already proven in history that he's dismantled top Koreans with little trouble and has a stash of trophies to prove that including the most prestigious trophy in that 2018 WCS Finals win.
2. How is it fair conditions for him to compete overseas in an unfamiliar environment where the Koreans he's facing are all in their comfort zone at home?
IMO he's the G.O.A.T. What do you guys think?
I agree. None of the current players come close to his dominance. Maru maybe, but he only won GSL and nothing outside of it. Also, his dominance was based on 2-rax. Once that got figured out he went from godlike to just very good.
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Oh good, another one of these.
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I think DRG is the GOAT. He dominated in 2012 and is now back 8 years later destroying INnoVation.
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If he wins another global finals and remains on top for a couple more patches I think it will become almost undisputable then.
He already will be remembered as one of the greeatest for sure, but I think he needs to remain consistent for a while longer until majority can agree he is the GOAT.
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This thread is going to get ugly fast, but here's my 2 cents anyways:
I think it's hard to say Serral is definitively the GOAT when he's never played in a Code S, which has been the signature tournament of SC2 for 10 years and remains probably the hardest tournament around, but he's proven over and over he can beat any GSL champion. It's hard to argue that of all the greatest to ever play the game, Serral has been the most consistent.
Look at it this way: the other GOAT candidates are MVP, Innovation, Maru, and Rogue. MVP played in an entirely different era. Inno got 3-0ed yesterday in the Ro8. Maru went 0-4 in his Ro16 group. Rogue is back in top form, but he had been pretty quiet since his Katowice win and lost in the first round of the last GSL. Serral just doesn't have tournaments like that. Even when he doesn't win, and he wins a whole lot, he usually makes it to at least the semis or loses to the eventual champion, and in the series he loses, it usually comes down to the decider map, he really never looks outclassed. He just has that rock-solid macro-oriented defend/harass/expand Zerg style down so perfectly, which means he never gives up an easy game.
Inno's mechanical and ultra-precise timing style can become more or less effective as patches and metas change, and the APM Maru's insane multitasking-intensive style demands makes it hard for him to play his best game, but Serral can always just fall back on his textbook play.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
I’m one of those boring fellows that thinks unless you have such a clear outlier like a Wayne Gretzky, you can’t really have a definitive GOAT, merely hope to be part of the conversation.
I think if he pulls out another Blizzcon, or gets a Katowice + his standard tournament churn he’ll maybe give GSL a shot too, kind of hard to argue against him being up there, indeed if he isn’t already.
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On July 30 2020 06:19 ScrappyRabbit wrote:
This thread is going to get ugly fast, but here's my 2 cents anyways:
I think it's hard to say Serral is definitively the GOAT when he's never played in a Code S, which has been the signature tournament of SC2 for 10 years and remains probably the hardest tournament around, but he's proven over and over he can beat any GSL champion. It's hard to argue that of all the greatest to ever play the game, Serral has been the most consistent.
Look at it this way: the other GOAT candidates are MVP, Innovation, Maru, and Rogue. MVP played in an entirely different era. Inno got 3-0ed yesterday in the Ro8. Maru went 0-4 in his Ro16 group. Rogue is back in top form, but he had been pretty quiet since his Katowice win and lost in the first round of the last GSL. Serral just doesn't have tournaments like that. Even when he doesn't win, and he wins a whole lot, he usually makes it to at least the semis or loses to the eventual champion, and in the series he loses, it usually comes down to the decider map, he really never looks outclassed. He just has that rock-solid macro-oriented defend/harass/expand Zerg style down so perfectly, which means he never gives up an easy game.
Inno's mechanical and ultra-precise timing style can become more or less effective as patches and metas change, and the APM Maru's insane multitasking-intensive style demands makes it hard for him to play his best game, but Serral can always just fall back on his textbook play.
what about Serral's crushing defeats to Maru and Classic in 2018. Or don't you count them because he "wasn't at his peak yet" while at the same time counting for some reason Inno's defeat to DRG when he is clearly beyond his peak as well?
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I think he's definitely a contender, many people would agree with you. Also think its safe to say its far from unanimous.
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I don't think anyone was more dominant than DRG during that 1.5-2 year stretch in 2011-12 where he was winning against the very best Koreans with ease.
No disrespect to players like Reynor, but he won during a time where most of the other greats were already retired/past their peak..
MKP and MC also come into mind but that's debatable and DRG has bested both of them in the past in their match-ups together.
The only argument you have against DRG is that he hasn't won a Blizzcon which I think isn't a great argument because:
1. DRG has already proven in history that he's dismantled top Koreans with little trouble and has a stash of trophies to prove that including the most prestigious trophy in that 2012 GSL Code S win.
2. How is it fair conditions for him to compete overseas in an unfamiliar environment where the foreigners he's facing are all in their comfort zone at home?
IMO he's the G.O.A.T. What do you guys think?
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Nope
Half of his premier tournament wins are region-locked. Stephano's WCS wins in 2012 were heavily caveated because it was region locked. I don't think we should suddenly give tournaments where Koreans are region-locked out so much weight. Sure some foreigner have risen up, but the scene overall isn't as strong still.
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No he's not. Objectively speaking he's won a single tier 1 event and three tier 2 events. And a bunch of lower tier offline events and online events. Compare that to the actual GOAT candidates and you'll see how much he's lacking.
Yes, he has had the highest winrate ever over the last 2 years. But that hasn't lead to winning big events since he refuses to play in GSL and there are only 3-4 top tier international events per year of which he's only won 1-3 of in the last 3 years depending on which you consider major. So basically he wins a lot but besides Blizzcon and GSL vs the world he's lost when it mattered the most. It's also questionable if he would have kept his winrate going if he played in more tournaments. I personally don't think an 80% winrate is sustainable if you actually are playing the best constantly which he is not. He has only played 70 something series vs Koreans in the last 3 years. That's how little he plays vs the best. He doesn't even average 1 series vs a Korean every 2 weeks.
Ultimately unless you consider WCS to be a major event or your only criteria is winrate over a set amount of time and you don't pay attention to anything else there is no real argument for Serral as the goat.
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Nope.
Not saying he has to win Code S, just think he has to be on that level 3 years from now and show he can still win international tournaments then.
For example Serral lost in the TL community goat vote vs Classic and I think that's fair, because Classic won Code S in 2014 and then still won the Super Tournament in 2019 and went to another Code S final. But then there are even more impressive players over the years. That's the kind of track record you need for the goat discussion imo. I think Serral could be the goat if he can keep it up, but that is a big IF and he is not there yet by a long shot.
Best player of the last 2 years though? Yeah why not. I think even most korean pros would agree from how they talk about him.
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In term of dominance & consistency, he may win after all. But this was still debatable since he always stayed comfortably at Eu regions and only meet Koreans at weekender tournaments. I was thinking that if he participated a kind of GSL tournaments where other players can prepare something against him at some times before the scheduled date of matches, and then win, he may be considered having achieved all that. Think that players like Reynor, Uthermal, Clem, Neeb and Showtimes prepared such craftedly meta builds in order to dethrone him out of brackets, while Dreamhack tourneys like others do not warrant such merit to do so.
In term of achievements, no way he can challenge what Rogue and others did (Taeja/Life also did during their peak of days). Rogue's 2x world championship titles, 1x Blizzcon WCS title, and 1x Code S were still unmatched. Serral at least need some points that he can beat Rogue, as these was also considered in the criteria of best player of all the time.
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What is this blasphemy?
Serral isnt even the best Finn of all time
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I've always been a Serral skeptic but but I've been proved wrong over and over again by Serral, he truly is among the greatest players of all time but I don't think he is the GOAT yet. I would put him at third behind Maru and Inno but thats just me, he is in the discussion and it is close.
The interesting thing to me is how the three races in SC2 seems to be clearly favored in different types of tournaments. Zerg excels overall in weekend tournaments (with limited time for preparation between opponents) while terran has the edge in GSL style tournaments. Serral has dominated the weekend style tournaments for years, the kind of tournaments zerg is the strongest in, similarly Maru has dominated GSL as Terran. Maru has mostly failed in weekenders while Serral has never tried GSL style prep tournaments.
So which tournament style is most important? Are the equal important? I am not of any clear opinion and I definitely don't think Serral has to prove himself in GSL to be the GOAT but he does have to do more than he has done so far.
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On July 30 2020 07:15 Musicus wrote:
Nope.
Not saying he has to win Code S, just think he has to be on that level 3 years from now and show he can still win international tournaments then.
For example Serral lost in the TL community goat vote vs Classic and I think that's fair, because Classic won Code S in 2014 and then still won the Super Tournament in 2019 and went to another Code S final. But then there are even more impressive players over the years. That's the kind of track record you need for the goat discussion imo. I think Serral could be the goat if he can keep it up, but that is a big IF and he is not there yet by a long shot.
Best player of the last 2 years though? Yeah why not. I think even most korean pros would agree from how they talk about him.
I think people overrate GSLs -- at least in this case. You have days/weeks to prepare in GSL for one guy, while you have to play against a bunch of top competitors, usually Koreans and GSL players, in weekenders anyways. Sure the foreigner tourneys are "easier", but it's not like Serral is losing in weekenders with GSL players either. He usually places top 4 if not out right win them. But I agree, when I think of GOAT I think of longevity, and GSL guys like Inno, Maru, TY, etc., have been consistently performing well for so long. If Serral can keep this up for a few more years, he will definitely be GOAT. He definitely has been a top 3 player, if not the best player these past two years.
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Oh boy, the world definitely needed more of this.
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is there any option to hide this kind of thread?
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serral lost to innovation who lost to DRG
DRG GOAT
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On July 30 2020 06:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’m one of those boring fellows that thinks unless you have such a clear outlier like a Wayne Gretzky Mario Lemieux, you can’t really have a definitive GOAT, merely hope to be part of the conversation. You spelled Mario Lemieux wrong there bud. FTFY.
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People have always overlooked the fact that these 'very best koreans' are pretty much all past the retirement age had there been new blood like the BW era.
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[/QUOTE]
what about Serral's crushing defeats to Maru and Classic in 2018. Or don't you count them because he "wasn't at his peak yet" while at the same time counting for some reason Inno's defeat to DRG when he is clearly beyond his peak as well?[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming you're talking about WESG and IEM in March of 2018.
1) That was 2 and a half years ago -- being able to name 2 "crushing defeats" over the course of two and a half years isn't really proof that Serral isn't extremely consistent.
2) At IEM, he lost to Classic in the semifinals, one of the best Protoss of all time. Rough because it was a 3-0 defeat and Classic went on to get swept in the Finals, but it was a semifinal finish! He beat Trap in the quarterfinals! Inno lost in the group stages of that tournament! Zest went 1-4 in the group stage! (A group stage Serral went 5-0 in.) Dark lost to Trap right before Serral beat Trap!
3) At WESG, Maru 3-0ed him, then Serral went on to beat Classic in the 3rd place match right after that.
I mean, unless I'm forgetting some tournaments where Serral has been bopped out in the early rounds or the group stages, 2 semifinal losses to Code S champions two and a half years ago isn't the best argument that he's an almost impossibly consistent player.
And FWIW I'm a huge Inno fan and think he's playing as well as he ever has, he plays in everything, is always a threat, his mechanics are as beastly as ever and now he's got all these new tricks up his sleeve, but that's just me.
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this is a pointlesss thread.
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Serral is outdated. Reynor is the GOAT now.
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The opening post isn't even the most offensive part of this thread. The foreigner bias in full effect as usual on TL forums.
"the other GOAT candidates are MVP, Innovation, Maru, and Rogue" - huh? Rogue??! What are you talking about dude? Literally one (now two after beating Dream) Top 4 GSL result in 6 years, what exactly has he done aside from proxy hatching Classic one time in Proleague? The only time he's been good is when zerg has been OP (which he even admitted) and he hasn't even been that good. Maybe top 5 zerg and that's questionable at best.
"in my opinion the tool of measurement for us is the Global Finals" - you mean the same ones where we've seen Special, Elazer, and Bomber make Top 3 despite having <50% career win percentages against Koreans offline? Special who barely makes it out of R24 in GSL? The Global Finals where Jaedong and Creator make the Finals? Yeah ok buddy. Apparently we all should bow down to sOs for winning two...
"Inno got 3-0ed yesterday in the Ro8.", "Maru went 0-4 in his Ro16 group" - Recency bias much? Two matches wipe out the careers of the two greatest terrans to ever play the game, both who had unbelievable results during Kespa and have the most starleagues out of anyone.
"the APM Maru's insane multitasking-intensive style demands makes it hard for him to play his best game," - Yeah it was def hard during those four GSL titles in a row
"Rogue and others did (Taeja/Life" - Rogue again smh...Taeja's best GSL result was a 1-4 drubbing against RorO. Next people going to be name dropping Polt. And who tf is Life?
"I think people overrate GSLs" you're right people overrate the hardest tournament to win where the pros spend an entire week studying their matchup and usually show up in top form. We should put more emphasis on Homestory Cup where everyone plays at TaKe's house and Zest shows up drunk. And let's forget about total starleague wins, win percentages, Proleague and balance too. No one cares about those.
"Reynor is the GOAT now." - Achieving GOAT status was easy. Forget trying to beat Koreans in offline tournaments more than 50% of the time.
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No one is GOAT. A true GOAT wins with random.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37057 Posts
1) No. Serral is not the GOAT of SC2.
2) This thread can't lead to anything good, so I'm closing it now.
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EPT
