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Katowice25012 Posts
Following a heated debate on twitter between TotalBiscuit and a host of foreign pros (over the issue of region locked WCS), MorroW posted some thoughts on the difficulties of progaming as a non-Korean. I thought it may be an interesting discussion here. From the twitlonger thingy:
At the start of sc2 alot (and i mean a fuckton) of korean pros/semipros from broodwar switched and started practicing like crazy.
In foreigner scene there were not nearly as many pros from bw/wc3 to practice, we were playing alot of tournaments being competitors hiding builds from each other to gain an edge and so forth. all korea had was GSL.
So korea started off with a higher player base that had the mentality to play all day long. players like Mvp who was winning in the start came from broodwar environment, same goes with MC and Nestea afaik.
So higher hardcore player base, right practice mentality and higher experience from RTS in general them personally and culturally. this is how they got best almost immidietly, MC started winning every foreigner tournament.
Years later the real Kespa pros switched, they had an amazing ladder to practice on against these non-kespa players and they were living in team houses. some of these guys has been playing living and breathing starcraft for years while most foreigner pros still were going to school/working. only a few amount of pros (like me for example) quit school for full-time progaming.
I hope ive painted a picture of how their infrastructure gives any given korean player a higher chance of success over a foreigner.
Just take the fact how some of our best foreigners have moved to Korea just for that practice have come back and preformed better than ever. their talent or work ethic didnt necessarily increase by going to Korea, but it was the competition they had in their practice hours that made them get better.
I've played this game damn many years fulltime now, i dont exactly practice all day long like i used to back in the day but seeing some of the comments on reddit is what makes pros like myself feel very cheated. many of us worked damn hard barely scraping by on a sub-300 euro salery at best for years playing because of the love of the game and believe in esport growth.
During the later foreign Brood War days, where basically no one was really a professional (no matter how hard Artosis says otherwise) MorroW had a bit of a reputation as a real grinder. He was largely an unknown 15 year old kid who would pound out 400 games per 6 week iCCup season outside of school, which was a pretty high workload for those days. He almost finished the TSL2 ladder at #1, ahead of an IdrA living in Korea, so he seems to have an idea of what it takes to really grind and work so I feel for him on that end.
On the other hand, I don't know how many of these arguments really hold weight. I'm not sure you would be correct to say Korea immediately had more players, as many of those seriously competing in RTS were still exclusively BW until much later. Korea only having GSL seems like it would lead to a similar environment where pros hide builds from each other, though I get the feeling thats largely an EU/NA mentality in all games (this is especially true in Dota and now Heroes, where NA teams prefer to one-up each other and not scrim to gain an edge as opposed to aiming for only serious practice with the best). The "Korean infrastructure" argument gets brought up time and time again, yet every instance of a team house (EG, coL, Ministry of Win, even Clarity off the top of my head) is unable to last as a serious practice environment.
I'm not sure where I stand yet.
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China6331 Posts
I respect TB's viewpoint but the whole thing is a wrong argument started at a wrong time, for a wrong reason.
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Yay now we have two threads to shitstorm :D
As for Morrow, well yeah infrastructures are useful but they're not everything. It's all in the mentality.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
There was that CJ CS team that ended up getting Top3/4 in the few tournaments they entered. Their only practice was apparently 400 ping games, pickup games with random players in PC Bangs, 3v2 practice and constant dry runs.
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TotalBiscuit @Totalbiscuit
I hope foreign players realise how lucky they are to get to earn thousands of dollars playing a tournament thats easier than Code A
TotalBiscuit @Totalbiscuit
I stand by the opinion that foreign players should consider themselves fortunate Blizzard is supporting them with WCS World
Your full of korean wannabe team missed WCS America money ? Oh the irony 
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What is the point of this? Totalbiscuit talks out of his ass all the time. His Axiom players can't get out of Code A, so he takes it out on foreigners. That's all this is.
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On April 11 2015 00:42 stuchiu wrote:
There was that CJ CS team that ended up getting Top3/4 in the few tournaments they entered. Their only practice was apparently 400 ping games, pickup games with random players in PC Bangs, 3v2 practice and constant dry runs.
I mean CJ is CJ, that doesn't surprise me
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Another thread where people will very profitably commit in the “Korea vs World” trench warfare instead of looking at the real issue, which is the social condition of pro players in general.
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oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without.
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lol TotalBiscuit starting this Korean vs Foreigners stuff again. Why? Because his Axiom team sucks in Code A and earn less money? There's a bigger picture and that is the state of the pro scene in general.
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On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without.
what the fuck man, this all started because you wanted to take a shot at foreign players.
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I mean what TB said in those tweets is right. But that doesn't mean Blizzard made the wrong decision in the region lock. WCS world is easier than Code A but its fantastic for the foreign scene and will help it stabilize because players can count on some decent prize money.
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On April 11 2015 00:58 coolman123123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without. what the fuck man, this all started because you wanted to take a shot at foreign players.
Fuck right off with your lies. WCS is easier than Code A. Fact. Foreigners should be grateful to have Blizzard supporting them with a region-locked event like this. Fact.
I didn't start shit. Morrow and Miniraiser got bruised egos over nothing and started an argument. Miniraiser then proved what a little shit he is, OVER NOTHING and a few of you toxic little pissants came along and did your usual cheerleading because you have nothing invested in this scene and nothing better to do with your time than piss off the people that do.
There's what actually happened.
Anyone taking a shot at my players is a piece of shit. Anyone taking a shot at the team is a piece of shit. They work harder than you, we put a lot into this scene and what we get out are insults and toxic behavior. You're damn right I'm pissed off at what GSL did today and if you had any sense you would be to but you can't get over your own personal little petulance.
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As Wolf would say, get the popcorn ready!
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On April 11 2015 00:51 coolman123123 wrote:
What is the point of this? Totalbiscuit talks out of his ass all the time. His Axiom players can't get out of Code A, so he takes it out on foreigners. That's all this is.
You're missing the point of the argument though, like so many have once the drama began. There were two key planks that were the basis of the whole thing
1) GSL acted basically unprofessionally today with the whole patch fiasco. You may say "Impact would have lost anyway" and that may be true. But he had to fundamentally change his game on short notice. Gumi probably less so. As an owner TB has every right to be pissed off about it
2) WCS World is easier than Code A. If there's anyone in the StarCraft world that doesn't believe this then they are truly beyond help.
It's not "Taking it out" on foreigners to say they have it good right now thanks to the Region Lock. It's not "taking it out" to say they should be thankful for it.. It's not "Taking it out" when it's your team, your players getting fucked over.
People who argue otherwise are either biased, naïve, stupid or a combination of all three.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
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I love TB but he is just complaing cause he doesn't have free money anymore from WCS America and now he has realized that he made a team of mediocre koreans that can't achieve Code S.
But be honest. The only hope for foreigner is WCS. In other events like DH/IEM the prize pool is only for top8 so 99% full korean. So WCS is not a money pot for foreigners, is the only way to achieve something. And in the actual system there are already ways for koreans to take money and with JD and Stardust and maybe Violet the next WCS top8 will be full korean again
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I wouldn't compare the EG, col, TL etc team houses to "korean infrastructure". They are more like a house for people who play games to live together.
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Italy12247 Posts
On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without.
Maybe, but this kind of response doesn't exactly help your cause...
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On April 11 2015 01:01 SuperHofmann wrote:
I love TB but he is just complaing cause he doesn't have free money anymore from WCS America and now he has realized that he made a team of mediocre koreans that can't achieve Code S.
But be honest. The only hope for foreigner is WCS. In other events like DH/IEM the prize pool is only for top8 so 99% full korean. So WCS is not a money pot for foreigners, is the only way to achieve something. And in tue actual system there are already ways for koreans to take money amd with JD and Stardust and maybe Violet the next WCS top8 will be full korean again
"Free money"
Free money from a league with 17 Koreans in it. WCS America was far harder than WCS Europe, if we wanted free money we'd have gone there.
You're a complete moron if you think we wouldnt take advantage of anything we could to get our players paid, that's the job of the team, to give players opportunities.
There is not even a discussion to be had. Anyone that defends GSL in this is an idiot. If it was someone like Snute or anyone popular that got screwed over, TL would be up in arms demanding GSLs heads for pulling this bait and switch, but hey, it's just a couple of "faceless" Koreans, so we don't care right? Yeah ok. You don't change the ruleset hours before a tournament and expect people to be fucking happy about it.
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EPT
