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Katowice25012 Posts
Following a heated debate on twitter between TotalBiscuit and a host of foreign pros (over the issue of region locked WCS), MorroW posted some thoughts on the difficulties of progaming as a non-Korean. I thought it may be an interesting discussion here. From the twitlonger thingy:
At the start of sc2 alot (and i mean a fuckton) of korean pros/semipros from broodwar switched and started practicing like crazy.
In foreigner scene there were not nearly as many pros from bw/wc3 to practice, we were playing alot of tournaments being competitors hiding builds from each other to gain an edge and so forth. all korea had was GSL.
So korea started off with a higher player base that had the mentality to play all day long. players like Mvp who was winning in the start came from broodwar environment, same goes with MC and Nestea afaik.
So higher hardcore player base, right practice mentality and higher experience from RTS in general them personally and culturally. this is how they got best almost immidietly, MC started winning every foreigner tournament.
Years later the real Kespa pros switched, they had an amazing ladder to practice on against these non-kespa players and they were living in team houses. some of these guys has been playing living and breathing starcraft for years while most foreigner pros still were going to school/working. only a few amount of pros (like me for example) quit school for full-time progaming.
I hope ive painted a picture of how their infrastructure gives any given korean player a higher chance of success over a foreigner.
Just take the fact how some of our best foreigners have moved to Korea just for that practice have come back and preformed better than ever. their talent or work ethic didnt necessarily increase by going to Korea, but it was the competition they had in their practice hours that made them get better.
I've played this game damn many years fulltime now, i dont exactly practice all day long like i used to back in the day but seeing some of the comments on reddit is what makes pros like myself feel very cheated. many of us worked damn hard barely scraping by on a sub-300 euro salery at best for years playing because of the love of the game and believe in esport growth.
During the later foreign Brood War days, where basically no one was really a professional (no matter how hard Artosis says otherwise) MorroW had a bit of a reputation as a real grinder. He was largely an unknown 15 year old kid who would pound out 400 games per 6 week iCCup season outside of school, which was a pretty high workload for those days. He almost finished the TSL2 ladder at #1, ahead of an IdrA living in Korea, so he seems to have an idea of what it takes to really grind and work so I feel for him on that end.
On the other hand, I don't know how many of these arguments really hold weight. I'm not sure you would be correct to say Korea immediately had more players, as many of those seriously competing in RTS were still exclusively BW until much later. Korea only having GSL seems like it would lead to a similar environment where pros hide builds from each other, though I get the feeling thats largely an EU/NA mentality in all games (this is especially true in Dota and now Heroes, where NA teams prefer to one-up each other and not scrim to gain an edge as opposed to aiming for only serious practice with the best). The "Korean infrastructure" argument gets brought up time and time again, yet every instance of a team house (EG, coL, Ministry of Win, even Clarity off the top of my head) is unable to last as a serious practice environment.
I'm not sure where I stand yet.
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China6331 Posts
I respect TB's viewpoint but the whole thing is a wrong argument started at a wrong time, for a wrong reason.
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Yay now we have two threads to shitstorm :D
As for Morrow, well yeah infrastructures are useful but they're not everything. It's all in the mentality.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
There was that CJ CS team that ended up getting Top3/4 in the few tournaments they entered. Their only practice was apparently 400 ping games, pickup games with random players in PC Bangs, 3v2 practice and constant dry runs.
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TotalBiscuit @Totalbiscuit
I hope foreign players realise how lucky they are to get to earn thousands of dollars playing a tournament thats easier than Code A
TotalBiscuit @Totalbiscuit
I stand by the opinion that foreign players should consider themselves fortunate Blizzard is supporting them with WCS World
Your full of korean wannabe team missed WCS America money ? Oh the irony 
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What is the point of this? Totalbiscuit talks out of his ass all the time. His Axiom players can't get out of Code A, so he takes it out on foreigners. That's all this is.
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On April 11 2015 00:42 stuchiu wrote:
There was that CJ CS team that ended up getting Top3/4 in the few tournaments they entered. Their only practice was apparently 400 ping games, pickup games with random players in PC Bangs, 3v2 practice and constant dry runs.
I mean CJ is CJ, that doesn't surprise me
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Another thread where people will very profitably commit in the “Korea vs World” trench warfare instead of looking at the real issue, which is the social condition of pro players in general.
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oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without.
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lol TotalBiscuit starting this Korean vs Foreigners stuff again. Why? Because his Axiom team sucks in Code A and earn less money? There's a bigger picture and that is the state of the pro scene in general.
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On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without.
what the fuck man, this all started because you wanted to take a shot at foreign players.
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I mean what TB said in those tweets is right. But that doesn't mean Blizzard made the wrong decision in the region lock. WCS world is easier than Code A but its fantastic for the foreign scene and will help it stabilize because players can count on some decent prize money.
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On April 11 2015 00:58 coolman123123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without. what the fuck man, this all started because you wanted to take a shot at foreign players.
Fuck right off with your lies. WCS is easier than Code A. Fact. Foreigners should be grateful to have Blizzard supporting them with a region-locked event like this. Fact.
I didn't start shit. Morrow and Miniraiser got bruised egos over nothing and started an argument. Miniraiser then proved what a little shit he is, OVER NOTHING and a few of you toxic little pissants came along and did your usual cheerleading because you have nothing invested in this scene and nothing better to do with your time than piss off the people that do.
There's what actually happened.
Anyone taking a shot at my players is a piece of shit. Anyone taking a shot at the team is a piece of shit. They work harder than you, we put a lot into this scene and what we get out are insults and toxic behavior. You're damn right I'm pissed off at what GSL did today and if you had any sense you would be to but you can't get over your own personal little petulance.
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As Wolf would say, get the popcorn ready!
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On April 11 2015 00:51 coolman123123 wrote:
What is the point of this? Totalbiscuit talks out of his ass all the time. His Axiom players can't get out of Code A, so he takes it out on foreigners. That's all this is.
You're missing the point of the argument though, like so many have once the drama began. There were two key planks that were the basis of the whole thing
1) GSL acted basically unprofessionally today with the whole patch fiasco. You may say "Impact would have lost anyway" and that may be true. But he had to fundamentally change his game on short notice. Gumi probably less so. As an owner TB has every right to be pissed off about it
2) WCS World is easier than Code A. If there's anyone in the StarCraft world that doesn't believe this then they are truly beyond help.
It's not "Taking it out" on foreigners to say they have it good right now thanks to the Region Lock. It's not "taking it out" to say they should be thankful for it.. It's not "Taking it out" when it's your team, your players getting fucked over.
People who argue otherwise are either biased, naïve, stupid or a combination of all three.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
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I love TB but he is just complaing cause he doesn't have free money anymore from WCS America and now he has realized that he made a team of mediocre koreans that can't achieve Code S.
But be honest. The only hope for foreigner is WCS. In other events like DH/IEM the prize pool is only for top8 so 99% full korean. So WCS is not a money pot for foreigners, is the only way to achieve something. And in the actual system there are already ways for koreans to take money and with JD and Stardust and maybe Violet the next WCS top8 will be full korean again
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I wouldn't compare the EG, col, TL etc team houses to "korean infrastructure". They are more like a house for people who play games to live together.
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Italy12247 Posts
On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without.
Maybe, but this kind of response doesn't exactly help your cause...
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On April 11 2015 01:01 SuperHofmann wrote:
I love TB but he is just complaing cause he doesn't have free money anymore from WCS America and now he has realized that he made a team of mediocre koreans that can't achieve Code S.
But be honest. The only hope for foreigner is WCS. In other events like DH/IEM the prize pool is only for top8 so 99% full korean. So WCS is not a money pot for foreigners, is the only way to achieve something. And in tue actual system there are already ways for koreans to take money amd with JD and Stardust and maybe Violet the next WCS top8 will be full korean again
"Free money"
Free money from a league with 17 Koreans in it. WCS America was far harder than WCS Europe, if we wanted free money we'd have gone there.
You're a complete moron if you think we wouldnt take advantage of anything we could to get our players paid, that's the job of the team, to give players opportunities.
There is not even a discussion to be had. Anyone that defends GSL in this is an idiot. If it was someone like Snute or anyone popular that got screwed over, TL would be up in arms demanding GSLs heads for pulling this bait and switch, but hey, it's just a couple of "faceless" Koreans, so we don't care right? Yeah ok. You don't change the ruleset hours before a tournament and expect people to be fucking happy about it.
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On April 11 2015 01:02 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without. Maybe, but this kind of response doesn't exactly help your cause...
Getting the approval of morons is not high on the priority list. If people act like shit they deserve to be treated like it.
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Do we need a foreign scene necessarily? I mean I just want to see the best players do well and get rewarded, regardless of where they are from. I do agree with TB on this one, but man with his attitude it is hard to say that....
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About one sentence I am quite surprised why everyone (~95%) can't see what is true/false.
Just take the fact how some of our best foreigners have moved to Korea just for that practice have come back and preformed better than ever.
Maybe they play better than ever before. But based on tournaments results, all except Grubby and someone (I forgot) failed (very) hard after Korea-trip.
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On April 11 2015 01:00 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 00:51 coolman123123 wrote:
What is the point of this? Totalbiscuit talks out of his ass all the time. His Axiom players can't get out of Code A, so he takes it out on foreigners. That's all this is. You're missing the point of the argument though, like so many have once the drama began. There were two key planks that were the basis of the whole thing 1) GSL acted basically unprofessionally today with the whole patch fiasco. You may say "Impact would have lost anyway" and that may be true. But he had to fundamentally change his game on short notice. Gumi probably less so. As an owner TB has every right to be pissed off about it 2) WCS World is easier than Code A. If there's anyone in the StarCraft world that doesn't believe this then they are truly beyond help. It's not "Taking it out" on foreigners to say they have it good right now thanks to the Region Lock. It's not "taking it out" to say they should be thankful for it.. It's not "Taking it out" when it's your team, your players getting fucked over. People who argue otherwise are either biased, naïve, stupid or a combination of all three.
Yes Code A is harder, we all know that, but he only reason TB tweeted that was because all of his players lost in Code A. And it was clearly passive aggression towards foreigners, you can sit here and say he is just stating facts which is true, but why are we so surprised foreign pros got defensive?
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On April 11 2015 01:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:02 Teoita wrote:On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without. Maybe, but this kind of response doesn't exactly help your cause... Getting the approval of morons is not high on the priority list. If people act like shit they deserve to be treated like it.
I believe that goes your way also.
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On April 11 2015 01:04 KrO_ wrote:
Do we need a foreign scene necessarily? I mean I just want to see the best players do well and get rewarded, regardless of where they are from. I do agree with TB on this one, but man with his attitude it is hard to say that....
Apparently we do because people want to root for someone they can "identify" with. Sad as it may seem, the majority of the audience doesn't care who is the best player, they care about having someone they can cheer for that looks like them
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On April 11 2015 01:05 KrO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 11 2015 01:02 Teoita wrote:On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without. Maybe, but this kind of response doesn't exactly help your cause... Getting the approval of morons is not high on the priority list. If people act like shit they deserve to be treated like it. I believe that goes your way also.
I have not done a damn thing to deserve the utter shit people have thrown my way today. Not that I'm surprised by it, only took a couple of days after the all-clear announcement for people to go right back to being toxic as fuck. That's the SC2 forums for you.
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Bisutopia19382 Posts
I find it is just hard to shed stereo types in gaming. Koreans are great fps and rts players because they are Korean. Japanese are great fighter game and rpg players because they are Japanese. If a non-korean pro could go back and live in korea from age 12-18 and spend all their time gaming would their peak performance then the same conditions except living in a different country. That on its on is a hefty debate. You can even flip it, would Polt be as good as polt is if he lived in the United States his whole life? Are his skills innate or a product of the Korean environment. My bias tells me Polt would still crush everyone in America, but my logic wants argue living in Korea is the game changer.
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On April 11 2015 01:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:05 KrO_ wrote:On April 11 2015 01:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 11 2015 01:02 Teoita wrote:On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without. Maybe, but this kind of response doesn't exactly help your cause... Getting the approval of morons is not high on the priority list. If people act like shit they deserve to be treated like it. I believe that goes your way also. I have not done a damn thing to deserve the utter shit people have thrown my way today. Not that I'm surprised by it, only took a couple of days after the all-clear announcement for people to go right back to being toxic as fuck. That's the SC2 forums for you.
except for calling everyone a toxic moron I guess
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On April 11 2015 01:04 coolman123123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:00 showstealer1829 wrote:On April 11 2015 00:51 coolman123123 wrote:
What is the point of this? Totalbiscuit talks out of his ass all the time. His Axiom players can't get out of Code A, so he takes it out on foreigners. That's all this is. You're missing the point of the argument though, like so many have once the drama began. There were two key planks that were the basis of the whole thing 1) GSL acted basically unprofessionally today with the whole patch fiasco. You may say "Impact would have lost anyway" and that may be true. But he had to fundamentally change his game on short notice. Gumi probably less so. As an owner TB has every right to be pissed off about it 2) WCS World is easier than Code A. If there's anyone in the StarCraft world that doesn't believe this then they are truly beyond help. It's not "Taking it out" on foreigners to say they have it good right now thanks to the Region Lock. It's not "taking it out" to say they should be thankful for it.. It's not "Taking it out" when it's your team, your players getting fucked over. People who argue otherwise are either biased, naïve, stupid or a combination of all three. Yes Code A is harder, we all know that, but he only reason TB tweeted that was because all of his players lost in Code A. And it was clearly passive aggression towards foreigners, you can sit here and say he is just stating facts which is true, but why are we so surprised foreign pros got defensive?
Are you a psychiatrist? Do you know that for sure? Or are you just surmising based on your own belief?
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On April 11 2015 01:01 Rekrul wrote:
it's genetic the end
I think the poker world showed us that genetic is irrelevent  (I assume you were sarcastic lol)
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On April 11 2015 01:07 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 11 2015 01:05 KrO_ wrote:On April 11 2015 01:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 11 2015 01:02 Teoita wrote:On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without. Maybe, but this kind of response doesn't exactly help your cause... Getting the approval of morons is not high on the priority list. If people act like shit they deserve to be treated like it. I believe that goes your way also. I have not done a damn thing to deserve the utter shit people have thrown my way today. Not that I'm surprised by it, only took a couple of days after the all-clear announcement for people to go right back to being toxic as fuck. That's the SC2 forums for you. except for calling everyone a toxic moron I guess
If you want to avoid being called a toxic moron, then stop being a toxic moron. The insults thrown at me and my team today have no justification. Zero. Nothing that I said warrants any of it, it is nothing but vicious, vindictive toxicity.
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I think it's harder for a EU/NA pro because of:
- Korean has more skilled players overall and a better ladder
- Korea has many teamhouses where the skill is very high and coaches that will improve the overall skill
- The standart of living is cheaper, for instance in Korea 500/1000€ might be a good salary but if you life alone in EU or USA might not be enough
- Esports is stronger and Korea and even tho it's not the best a eSport career is much more acceptable by parents and family and much more recognized
In the end the better players and hardworkers should get the cash, like Brazilians in football or americans in basketball.. where there is too much skilled players and there is not enough "jobs" for all of them, they tend to take their skills to other places.. i'm fine with that
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Fact is for external reasons Foreigners can't stay in the esport scene for long enough to catch up with Koreans, see Stephano and Scarlett, they're good, they beat Koreans, they're popular, but at the end of the day it's time to go back to school and stop wasting your life.
The best game-realated outcome for a foreigner is not to stay progamer, it's to become a caster or a streamer.
It was ok at the start of sc2 cause everybody was on the same starting line, but now it's over, no foreigner will have enough practice and experience as Maru or Life.
On the other hand, if Blizzard does nothing the Foreign scene simply disappears, so yes they are lucky to have an "easy money" WCS but it's way to go if you want to make programing an option for the most talented ones.
And in the end, who knows, maybe the foreign scene will grow, revenue will increase and slowly we'll start having sustainability and Foreigners will be able to compte with Koreans again.
I don't see why anyone should be ashamed to be lucky, anyway.
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On April 11 2015 00:51 coolman123123 wrote:
What is the point of this? Totalbiscuit talks out of his ass all the time. His Axiom players can't get out of Code A, so he takes it out on foreigners. That's all this is.
I think Heart qualified for Code S last season.
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We should stop this shit and move one. -_-"
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On April 11 2015 01:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:04 KrO_ wrote:
Do we need a foreign scene necessarily? I mean I just want to see the best players do well and get rewarded, regardless of where they are from. I do agree with TB on this one, but man with his attitude it is hard to say that.... Apparently we do because people want to root for someone they can "identify" with. Sad as it may seem, the majority of the audience doesn't care who is the best player, they care about having someone they can cheer for that looks like them
Oh jesus, god forbid we cheer for local players like fans in every sport everywhere do. We should all just cheer for the Anahiem Ducks or the NY Rangers in hockey cause they're the best team? idk soccer but should we all just cheer for ManU cause they're already popular? Watching local players try to fight their way up, even if it is a losing battle most of the time, is interesting and it gets people invested in a way watching 99% korean tournaments doesn't for a lot of people. I'm not saying I don't want the best players to win the most, but the foreign scene has it's place and is important to starcraft.
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I think everybody including TotalBiscuit is aware that foreigners practicing in the same environment as koreans, given the same information (or coaching w/e) would perform just as well, it's like saying Canadians are better at hockey than everyone else because of our genetic :D
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i don't feel like reading through the arguments, but i think it's pretty true that foreigners are noob compared to koreans, it has always been that way (i never realized people thought otherwise lol).. wcs coddles foreigners by regionlocking out better players under the guise of "promoting healthy communities," but the truth is everyone knows it's BS..
it was the same in BW, except foreigners weren't so arrogant to say that WCG regional finals meant they were on par with koreans, nor so weak to say that they needed a region locked tournament to feel good about themselves.. ps, the whole nonsense about "there's better infrastructure in korea" is retarded, I have like 5 practice partners at the top of the fish ladder because i took the time to learn korean and appreciate korean bw culture on a personal level.. saying that you're worse than koreans because they simply have a better practice environment and there's nothing that you can do about it is the epitome of toxic attitudes in terms of improving the aggregate skill of the foreigner scene..
in the end it all comes down to money: wcs wants to promote more foreigner sales by pretending like foreigners can compete on the same level that koreans can.. blizzard doesn't care about your skill, it cares about the illusion of skill so that you buy more of its games.. there's two separate problems at play here(blizzard's greed and foreigner noobness)
edit the most important part~~~~ SC2 is dead in korea so blizz doesn't care about the korean scene at all, hence why it regionlocks wcs to pervade "skill" (region locked wcs insults korean skill at the end of the day by putting noobs on par with them in terms of winning below the global finals or whatever they call it).
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On April 11 2015 01:04 KrO_ wrote:
Do we need a foreign scene necessarily? I mean I just want to see the best players do well and get rewarded, regardless of where they are from. I do agree with TB on this one, but man with his attitude it is hard to say that....
Yet many people say that "sc2 is dead because there are no foreigners to cheer for".
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On April 11 2015 01:12 ROOTFayth wrote:
I think everybody including TotalBiscuit is aware that foreigners practicing in the same environment as koreans, given the same information (or coaching w/e) would perform just as well, it's like saying Canadians are better at hockey than everyone else because of our genetic :D
Well we're 5 years in and not a single foreigner team adapted to be able to compete with a korean team.
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On April 11 2015 01:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 11 2015 01:04 KrO_ wrote:
Do we need a foreign scene necessarily? I mean I just want to see the best players do well and get rewarded, regardless of where they are from. I do agree with TB on this one, but man with his attitude it is hard to say that.... Apparently we do because people want to root for someone they can "identify" with. Sad as it may seem, the majority of the audience doesn't care who is the best player, they care about having someone they can cheer for that looks like them Oh jesus, god forbid we cheer for local players like fans in every sport everywhere do. We should all just cheer for the Anahiem Ducks or the NY Rangers in hockey cause they're the best team? idk soccer but should we all just cheer for ManU cause they're already popular? Watching local players try to fight their way up, even if it is a losing battle most of the time, is interesting and it gets people invested in a way watching 99% korean tournaments doesn't for a lot of people. I'm not saying I don't want the best players to win the most, but the foreign scene has it's place and is important to starcraft.
The Anaheim Ducks? SGTK please. Not even people in Anaheim cheer for the Ducks
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On April 11 2015 01:10 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 00:51 coolman123123 wrote:
What is the point of this? Totalbiscuit talks out of his ass all the time. His Axiom players can't get out of Code A, so he takes it out on foreigners. That's all this is. I think Heart qualified for Code S last season.
Of course he did, he also made it to the finals of WCS America the time before that. Ryung just finishes RO4 at Copenhagen. BUT HEY LET'S IGNORE ALL OF THAT BECAUSE ITS SHIT ON AXIOM DAY. Oh gee sorry we decided to build a team from the ground up instead of just cherrypicking the best players. Sorry we invested money making an effort and for some reason can't win every tournament. Gee, let's shit on someones passion why don't ya, that'll go down well.
This foreigner vs Korean argument is meaningless and came out of nowhere. Nobody made any claims about foreigners other than the fact that WCS is easier than Code A, which is true. That's as far as it goes. A few foreigners decided to take issue with that and start an argument, Miniraiser acted like a massive shitter and Reddit jerked itself into a coma over non-existent drama.
GG.
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On April 11 2015 01:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:07 Ej_ wrote:On April 11 2015 01:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 11 2015 01:05 KrO_ wrote:On April 11 2015 01:03 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 11 2015 01:02 Teoita wrote:On April 11 2015 00:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:
oh look, yet more morons in this thread engaging in player and casting bashing. Toxic little shits we could all do without. Maybe, but this kind of response doesn't exactly help your cause... Getting the approval of morons is not high on the priority list. If people act like shit they deserve to be treated like it. I believe that goes your way also. I have not done a damn thing to deserve the utter shit people have thrown my way today. Not that I'm surprised by it, only took a couple of days after the all-clear announcement for people to go right back to being toxic as fuck. That's the SC2 forums for you. except for calling everyone a toxic moron I guess If you want to avoid being called a toxic moron, then stop being a toxic moron. The insults thrown at me and my team today have no justification. Zero. Nothing that I said warrants any of it, it is nothing but vicious, vindictive toxicity.
I'm not sure who is a toxic moron anymore.
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On April 11 2015 01:14 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:12 ROOTFayth wrote:
I think everybody including TotalBiscuit is aware that foreigners practicing in the same environment as koreans, given the same information (or coaching w/e) would perform just as well, it's like saying Canadians are better at hockey than everyone else because of our genetic :D Well we're 5 years in and not a single foreigner team adapted to be able to compete with a korean team.
send a team of 30 foreigners, teach them korean and throw them in the korean environment, practice regime and they will do well
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Someone says his opinions and TB says he is a moron. Nice state of mind bro. You also think that your players are "faceless" forgetting how many fans you and Axiom have. At least you have lost one of them. Good luck in the next GSLs, will he VERY hard
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On April 11 2015 01:16 SuperHofmann wrote:
Someone says his opinions and TB says he is a moron. Nice state of mind bro. You also think that your players are "faceless" forgetting how many fans you and Axiom have. At least you have lost one of them. Good luck in the next GSLs, will he VERY hard
Maybe if you don't want to be called a moron, you should stop acting like a moron.
B.b.b.bb.bbbutttt,, my opinion!!!!! Who cares? Do you have something constructive to say or are you just here to shit on Axiom? No? Then go away.You calling WCS America free money when there were 17 Koreans in it is an absolute joke and a complete fallacy.
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On April 11 2015 01:13 Endymion wrote:
i don't feel like reading through the arguments, but i think it's pretty true that foreigners are noob compared to koreans, it has always been that way (i never realized people thought otherwise lol).. wcs coddles foreigners by regionlocking out better players under the guise of "promoting healthy communities," but the truth is everyone knows it's BS..
it was the same in BW, except foreigners weren't so arrogant to say that WCG regional finals meant they were on par with koreans, nor so weak to say that they needed a region locked tournament to feel good about themselves.. ps, the whole nonsense about "there's better infrastructure in korea" is retarded, I have like 5 practice partners at the top of the fish ladder because i took the time to learn korean and appreciate korean bw culture on a personal level.. saying that you're worse than koreans because they simply have a better practice environment and there's nothing that you can do about it is the epitome of toxic attitudes in terms of improving the aggregate skill of the foreigner scene..
in the end it all comes down to money: wcs wants to promote more foreigner sales by pretending like foreigners can compete on the same level that koreans can.. blizzard doesn't care about your skill, it cares about the illusion of skill so that you buy more of its games.. there's two separate problems at play here(blizzard's greed and foreigner noobness)
edit the most important part~~~~ SC2 is dead in korea so blizz doesn't care about the korean scene at all, hence why it regionlocks wcs to pervade "skill" (region locked wcs insults korean skill at the end of the day by putting noobs on par with them in terms of winning below the global finals or whatever they call it).
and now we are blaming at Blizzard when the community was the one asking for the help for foreigners in the first place lol. TL never cease to amaze me.
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Bisutopia19382 Posts
On April 11 2015 01:16 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:14 Deathstar wrote:On April 11 2015 01:12 ROOTFayth wrote:
I think everybody including TotalBiscuit is aware that foreigners practicing in the same environment as koreans, given the same information (or coaching w/e) would perform just as well, it's like saying Canadians are better at hockey than everyone else because of our genetic :D Well we're 5 years in and not a single foreigner team adapted to be able to compete with a korean team. send a team of 30 foreigners, teach them korean and throw them in the korean environment, practice regime and they will do well
I think you are on to something! Maybe Korean players are better because Korean SC2 sounds are superior to the English ones. I think we all better agree on one neutral sc2 language, maybe Hungarian.
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On April 11 2015 01:17 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 01:13 Endymion wrote:
i don't feel like reading through the arguments, but i think it's pretty true that foreigners are noob compared to koreans, it has always been that way (i never realized people thought otherwise lol).. wcs coddles foreigners by regionlocking out better players under the guise of "promoting healthy communities," but the truth is everyone knows it's BS..
it was the same in BW, except foreigners weren't so arrogant to say that WCG regional finals meant they were on par with koreans, nor so weak to say that they needed a region locked tournament to feel good about themselves.. ps, the whole nonsense about "there's better infrastructure in korea" is retarded, I have like 5 practice partners at the top of the fish ladder because i took the time to learn korean and appreciate korean bw culture on a personal level.. saying that you're worse than koreans because they simply have a better practice environment and there's nothing that you can do about it is the epitome of toxic attitudes in terms of improving the aggregate skill of the foreigner scene..
in the end it all comes down to money: wcs wants to promote more foreigner sales by pretending like foreigners can compete on the same level that koreans can.. blizzard doesn't care about your skill, it cares about the illusion of skill so that you buy more of its games.. there's two separate problems at play here(blizzard's greed and foreigner noobness)
edit the most important part~~~~ SC2 is dead in korea so blizz doesn't care about the korean scene at all, hence why it regionlocks wcs to pervade "skill" (region locked wcs insults korean skill at the end of the day by putting noobs on par with them in terms of winning below the global finals or whatever they call it). and now we are blaming at Blizzard when the community was the one asking for the help for foreigners in the first place lol. TL never cease to amaze me.
yes i blame a parent too when its 8 year old child breaks a neighbors window playing baseball
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Katowice25012 Posts
I IMMEDIATELY REGRET THIS
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EPT
