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Since TL.net is a more liberal site, I just wanted to know why you favor gun control. While looking at the facts, I just can't see any good reason at it for all. Here are some of the reasons:
- In 1982, 34% of prisoners reported that they had been shot at or scared off by a victim's handgun.
- Between 1976 and 1991 Washington DC has had the highest crime rate in the country (Washington DC enacted a gun ban in 1976)
- Since enacting a gun ban in Great Britain, it's violent crime rates have skyrocketed, near or above America's rates.
- Between 1987 and 1996 Florida had seen a 36% decrease in homicide, a 37% decrease in firearm homicide, and a 41% decrease in handgun homicide; the United States as a whole had seen a .4% decrease in homicide, a 15% increase in firearm homicide and a 24% increase in homicide (Florida enacted a right-to-carry law in 1987).
(Note: Most of my statistics were gained from http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm ,except the staistic on Great Britain where I read it from Arrogance by Bernard Goldberg)
I can see enacting a ban on assault rifles and submachine guns, but handguns have a right to stay. That's at least what the statistics tell me. However, I want to know YOUR reasoning behind wanting a gun control (if you believe in it that is). Now I'm not doing this for any specific reason but to learn more about the liberal side of thinking. Who knows, you guys might even impress me enough to join your side on gun control (however, it's probably just some false hope to be instilled in your arguments ).
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if everyone walked around with a handgun, one person could start a war.
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On September 25 2006 16:12 thedeadhaji wrote:There can always be other factors causing those incrases and declines in statistics, but I guess I can leave them as truths for the time being. Here's one reason I'm for gun control. Typical TV ad situation of some kid going to a friend's house where the parents have a gun. They are playing around with it, it fires, and one of them dies. I sure as hell don't want this happeneing to anyone I know  Guns dont cause deaths. Idiots do. And there are quite a few idiots in the world dont you think? Very good point, and I hope that the legislatures can pass some bill that requires parents to keep guns locked up and out of reach of children and hold them personally responsible if their children die because of their gun. I know it is a really sad situation, but the sheer number of murders that have decreased have lowered, too. I don't want my friends to be the victim of some freak accident murder because of their parent's guns either, but I don't want them to be an unarmed victim of some random murder, either.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 25 2006 16:03 hasuprotoss wrote:Since TL.net is a more liberal site, I just wanted to know why you favor gun control. While looking at the facts, I just can't see any good reason at it for all. Here are some of the reasons: - In 1982, 34% of prisoners reported that they had been shot at or scared off by a victim's handgun.
- Between 1976 and 1991 Washington DC has had the highest crime rate in the country (Washington DC enacted a gun ban in 1976)
- Since enacting a gun ban in Great Britain, it's violent crime rates have skyrocketed, near or above America's rates.
- Between 1987 and 1996 Florida had seen a 36% decrease in homicide, a 37% decrease in firearm homicide, and a 41% decrease in handgun homicide; the United States as a whole had seen a .4% decrease in homicide, a 15% increase in firearm homicide and a 24% increase in homicide (Florida enacted a right-to-carry law in 1987).
(Note: Most of my statistics were gained from http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm ,except the staistic on Great Britain where I read it from Arrogance by Bernard Goldberg) I can see enacting a ban on assault rifles and submachine guns, but handguns have a right to stay. That's at least what the statistics tell me. However, I want to know YOUR reasoning behind wanting a gun control (if you believe in it that is). Now I'm not doing this for any specific reason but to learn more about the liberal side of thinking. Who knows, you guys might even impress me enough to join your side on gun control (however, it's probably just some false hope to be instilled in your arguments  ). Ok, honestly, I went to the justfacts.com link you provided, saw the purple box with this quote:
The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of god. - John F Kennedy
Instantly I thought 'ok, I'm not reading this because it's obviously written by a redneck'.
Then when I went to get the exact quote I noticed it was a gif that changes quote everytime you refresh ^_^
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United States20661 Posts
I figure that liberals think the 2nd amendment is outdated. Except for those few who need to hunt for food, guns are only used in crime. So, if it were possible, complete gun control is good. [2nd amendment is just for fighting against an injust gov't, and, since the gov't is so unbelievably powerful militarily, no chance of that]
However, since the criminals will always be able to get guns, I don't think gun control makes much sense.
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If somebody really wants a gun, they'll be able to get it even if there are gun control laws.
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Some wacko reasoning here , mind you, it's something anti-liberal I found: + Show Spoiler + 1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, and Chicago cops need guns. 2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 80.6 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Arlington, VA's high murder rate of 1.6 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control. 3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics." 4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994, are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which have been declining since 1991. 5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid. 6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals. 7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you. 8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet. 9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense — give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p. 125). 10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns and Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery. 11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for spinal paralysis, a computer programmer for Y2K problems, and Sarah Brady [or Sheena Duncan, Adele Kirsten, Peter Storey, etc.] for firearms expertise. 12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1791, refers to the National Guard, which was created by an act of Congress in 1903. 13. The National Guard, funded by the federal government, occupying property leased to the federal government, using weapons owned by the federal government, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a state militia. 14. These phrases," right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumeration's herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the people," all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the state. 15. We don't need guns against an oppressive government, because the Constitution has internal safeguards, but we should ban and seize all guns, thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments to that Constitution. 16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense, which is why the army has millions of them. 17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they serve no military purpose, and private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles," because they are military weapons. 18. The ready availability of guns today, with waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting, government forms, et cetera, is responsible for recent school shootings,compared to the lack of school shootings in the 40's, 50's and 60's, which resulted from the availability of guns at hardware stores, surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, mail order, et cetera. 19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, and the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity. 20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy. 21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20. 22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears." 23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed. 24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows. 25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the population supported owning slaves. 26. A self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon." 27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted. 28. The right of online pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the Bill of Rights. 29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, computers, and typewriters, but self-defense only justifies bare hands. 30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other parts of the Constitution. 31. Charlton Heston as president of the NRA is a shill who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit. 32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition. 33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too. 34. Police officers, who qualify with their duty weapons once or twice a year, have some special Jedi-like mastery over handguns that private citizens can never hope to obtain. 35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection. 36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need a gun. 37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people, which is why the police need them but "civilians" do not. 38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good. 39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on their duty weapon. 40. When Handgun Control, Inc., says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands," they don't mean you. Really.
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On September 25 2006 16:31 QuietIdiot wrote:Some wacko reasoning here  , mind you, it's something anti-liberal I found: + Show Spoiler + 1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, and Chicago cops need guns. 2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 80.6 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Arlington, VA's high murder rate of 1.6 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control. 3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics." 4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994, are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which have been declining since 1991. 5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid. 6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals. 7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you. 8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet. 9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense — give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p. 125). 10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns and Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery. 11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for spinal paralysis, a computer programmer for Y2K problems, and Sarah Brady [or Sheena Duncan, Adele Kirsten, Peter Storey, etc.] for firearms expertise. 12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1791, refers to the National Guard, which was created by an act of Congress in 1903. 13. The National Guard, funded by the federal government, occupying property leased to the federal government, using weapons owned by the federal government, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a state militia. 14. These phrases," right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumeration's herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the people," all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the state. 15. We don't need guns against an oppressive government, because the Constitution has internal safeguards, but we should ban and seize all guns, thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments to that Constitution. 16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense, which is why the army has millions of them. 17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they serve no military purpose, and private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles," because they are military weapons. 18. The ready availability of guns today, with waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting, government forms, et cetera, is responsible for recent school shootings,compared to the lack of school shootings in the 40's, 50's and 60's, which resulted from the availability of guns at hardware stores, surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, mail order, et cetera. 19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, and the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity. 20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy. 21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20. 22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears." 23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed. 24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows. 25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the population supported owning slaves. 26. A self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon." 27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted. 28. The right of online pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the Bill of Rights. 29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, computers, and typewriters, but self-defense only justifies bare hands. 30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other parts of the Constitution. 31. Charlton Heston as president of the NRA is a shill who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit. 32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition. 33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too. 34. Police officers, who qualify with their duty weapons once or twice a year, have some special Jedi-like mastery over handguns that private citizens can never hope to obtain. 35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection. 36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need a gun. 37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people, which is why the police need them but "civilians" do not. 38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good. 39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on their duty weapon. 40. When Handgun Control, Inc., says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands," they don't mean you. Really.
Agreed.
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On September 25 2006 16:03 hasuprotoss wrote: [...] I want to know YOUR reasoning behind wanting a gun control [...].
- There's nothing wrong with protecting yourself. If guns are illegal, so are condoms.
- It's a deterrant. Nobody in their right mind would try to carjack a redneck in a shoddy pickup.
- With or without gun laws, bad things will still happen. For example, with guns being allowed, there will be accidental shootings, mostly due to poor habits of the owner (i.e. kids pick up a loaded revolver with the safety off that's just left in his dad's sock drawer, and shoots his friend in the neck). With guns being banned, crime would be rampant, as civilians have nothing to fight back with. If they ban guns, what will the average citizen use to defend themselves? The criminals won't care if guns are banned. They'll still have them.
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On September 25 2006 16:03 hasuprotoss wrote: Since enacting a gun ban in Great Britain, it's violent crime rates have skyrocketed, near or above America's rates.
Look at the time of this ban, and also compare the rate of murder to USA....
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On September 25 2006 16:36 RobOwns wrote: [removed quote within quote]- If guns are illegal, so are condoms.
It would be mighty dificult to go on a killing spree with a trojan.
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You can always find exceptions to the rule. Anyways, this is media biased, as is everything in the USA. Violent gun crimes have gone now DRASTICALLY due to the gun ban. This is like global warming. Uninformed ignorant reporters make you think it's a huge deal, when in actuality the majority of things occuring due to global warming happen in a tiny area. Like polar ice caps melting? That is only occuring in a 90 square mile area in the Arctic circle, while polar caps are actually EXPANDING everywhere else. My point is, media spin fuckin sucks so know your shit yourself.
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On September 25 2006 16:40 Lemonwalrus wrote: [removed quote within quote]
It would be mighty dificult to go on a killing spree with a trojan. lol, true, however you missed the connection I was attempting to allude to between protecting yourself in one way, and another.
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Edit: Hold on.
With more firearms comes more deaths. That's an inherent fact. However, you can't present this as conclusive evidence without some kind of control group to compare it to. So, for example, how would things change (or would they stay the same?) as the number of firearms decreases? We don't know. We can only speculate.
I just wanted to point out that chart is inconclusive and shouldn't be taken as any kind of concrete statement.
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I saw the connection, but I tried to show where I thought it faltered. Protecting yourself is a right. Using a condom will protect you from std's and unwanted pregnancy without hurting someone else, so there is no argument there. However, if you have a handgun, you can choose to protect yourself from an attacker, or rob some random person walking down the street. When you buy a condom, the cashier knows that you are not going to needlessly harm anyone with that particular product, however, when you buy a gun, there is no telling what kind of good or evil you might have in mind.
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Yeah well, let's not forget that canadian shoot-out not so long ago.
All the guy's guns were registered from what I've heard.
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On September 25 2006 16:03 hasuprotoss wrote: [*]Since enacting a gun ban in Great Britain, it's violent crime rates have skyrocketed, near or above America's rates.
I dont know about the rest, I dont like the idea of guns very much though. But the UK is becoming quite divided between the rich and poor right now in what is somewhat equivelent to the US, their ghettos are fast increasing so that I dont think that their violence increase has anything to do with the gun ban... Im just throwing that out there because I know its in as a reverse statistic, like "See even without guns the crime increases?" and thats true but its sort of distorting a very specific nations public welfare problem. I dunno: /
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On September 25 2006 16:50 Lemonwalrus wrote: I saw the connection, but I tried to show where I thought it faltered. Protecting yourself is a right. Using a condom will protect you from std's and unwanted pregnancy without hurting someone else, so there is no argument there. However, if you have a handgun, you can choose to protect yourself from an attacker, or rob some random person walking down the street. When you buy a condom, the cashier knows that you are not going to needlessly harm anyone with that particular product, however, when you buy a gun, there is no telling what kind of good or evil you might have in mind. Good point, I admit.
However, this is why I support very thorough background checks and as much as I'd hate to have to deal with the paperwork, I fully support the effort you have to go through to obtain any deadly weapon specifically designed for killing.
I personally will purchase a pistol when I'm of legal age for the sole purpose of defending myself. I will however, have taken and completed a firearms use and safety course before I even step foot in a gun store. I personally think this should be mandatory. As it is you can buy a firearm if you have a clean record. Safety courses aren't mandatory. I'm willing to bet there'd be a lower occurance of accidents of people know how to correctly use and operate a firearm, as well as how to store it to prevent accidental misfirings.
If I had children I would consider getting rid of any firearms I own for fear they'd accidentally stumble across it, even knowing that if I do my job adequately, that should never happen.
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