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On March 03 2014 06:00 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 05:20 Saryph wrote:This might be a useful read to anyone interested in the subject. It also includes an op-ed by the former Estonian ambassador to Russia on the subject. Link As someone who follows Estonian politics closely, Mart Helme (the ex-ambassador in question) is a nutjob. He's the leader of an nationalist homophobic xenophobic party, best illustrated in a phrase his son (his second in command in the extremely small party) said and he defended. "If the person's black, show him/her the door." Take his opinions with a large grain of salt.
I'd also like to point out that this "party" is largely ignored by voters, they have no seats in parliament, and are utterly irrelevant politically.
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On March 03 2014 06:13 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:18 Tobblish wrote:
And people say that Russia is not capable anymore to commit stupid acts like these because of NATO and UN.
Are there any reports on how many troops Russia have inside of the Crimean territory?
I honestly can't see any other outcome other than Crimea going into Russian hands. (or at least a major part of it)
No force will be used by either side, it have potential to change the world. (Israel would be screwed instantly) Once more: 1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business. 2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. The role of the civilian defense force in Crimea is to protect the rights of the people in Crimea, what don't you understand? There is no legitimate control over the country, people need to protect themselves.
There is legitimate control over the country. Everyone except Russia and some of it's allies understands and accepts that.
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On March 03 2014 06:18 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:14 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:13 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
Once more:
1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business.
2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. The role of the civilian defense force in Crimea is to protect the rights of the people in Crimea, what don't you understand? There is no legitimate control over the country, people need to protect themselves. From the Army you just said the evil fascist nazi genociders who clearly will begin to exterminate the one pure russian race at any moment dont control? That is why the army isn't listening to Kiev. They don't want to attack innocent citizens of Ukraine who's only crime is not listening to the illegal government in Kiev.
So answer my question. If the army isnt listening to the fascist genociding exterminators of Russians the one true race why are the army bases of an independent country on its own territory being surrounded, threatened and invaded by troops of a foreign country? Since you agree that the Ukrainian Army is not carrying out or threatening to carry out the obviously soon to happen genocide of the one true pure Russian race then...what is it other than an act of war?
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On March 03 2014 06:18 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:14 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:13 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
Once more:
1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business.
2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. The role of the civilian defense force in Crimea is to protect the rights of the people in Crimea, what don't you understand? There is no legitimate control over the country, people need to protect themselves. From the Army you just said the evil fascist nazi genociders who clearly will begin to exterminate the one pure russian race at any moment dont control? That is why the army isn't listening to Kiev. They don't want to attack innocent citizens of Ukraine who's only crime is not listening to the illegal government in Kiev.
Could you please stop being a propagandist? The government isn't illegal, it isn't a junta, and your obvious pro-fascist bias coupled with your country of origin gives you less than zero moral authority.
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On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:18 Tobblish wrote:
And people say that Russia is not capable anymore to commit stupid acts like these because of NATO and UN.
Are there any reports on how many troops Russia have inside of the Crimean territory?
I honestly can't see any other outcome other than Crimea going into Russian hands. (or at least a major part of it)
No force will be used by either side, it have potential to change the world. (Israel would be screwed instantly) Once more: 1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business. 2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race.
So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans throwing molotovs can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard.
User was warned for this post
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On March 03 2014 06:23 unigolyn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:18 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:14 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:13 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:
[quote]
NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict.
It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe.
So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. The role of the civilian defense force in Crimea is to protect the rights of the people in Crimea, what don't you understand? There is no legitimate control over the country, people need to protect themselves. From the Army you just said the evil fascist nazi genociders who clearly will begin to exterminate the one pure russian race at any moment dont control? That is why the army isn't listening to Kiev. They don't want to attack innocent citizens of Ukraine who's only crime is not listening to the illegal government in Kiev. Could you please stop being a propagandist? The government isn't illegal, it isn't a junta, and your obvious pro-fascist bias coupled with your country of origin gives you less than zero moral authority.
thats not fair. Just because Serbia is the only other modern European country next to Russia to pursue foreign policy based on race and not national boundaries doesnt mean zeo wasnt opposed to the Serbian dictator who did so.
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On March 03 2014 06:23 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:18 Tobblish wrote:
And people say that Russia is not capable anymore to commit stupid acts like these because of NATO and UN.
Are there any reports on how many troops Russia have inside of the Crimean territory?
I honestly can't see any other outcome other than Crimea going into Russian hands. (or at least a major part of it)
No force will be used by either side, it have potential to change the world. (Israel would be screwed instantly) Once more: 1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business. 2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard.
So you need to invade countries now to deal with random hooligans, that's what you're saying?
I might not agree to what Sub40 is saying, but you're not an ounce better.
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On March 03 2014 06:23 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:18 Tobblish wrote:
And people say that Russia is not capable anymore to commit stupid acts like these because of NATO and UN.
Are there any reports on how many troops Russia have inside of the Crimean territory?
I honestly can't see any other outcome other than Crimea going into Russian hands. (or at least a major part of it)
No force will be used by either side, it have potential to change the world. (Israel would be screwed instantly) Once more: 1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business. 2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans throwing molotovs can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard.
By this logic the US should have invaded Canada during the Stanley Cup riots.
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On March 03 2014 06:23 unigolyn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:18 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:14 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:13 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:
[quote]
NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict.
It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe.
So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. The role of the civilian defense force in Crimea is to protect the rights of the people in Crimea, what don't you understand? There is no legitimate control over the country, people need to protect themselves. From the Army you just said the evil fascist nazi genociders who clearly will begin to exterminate the one pure russian race at any moment dont control? That is why the army isn't listening to Kiev. They don't want to attack innocent citizens of Ukraine who's only crime is not listening to the illegal government in Kiev. Could you please stop being a propagandist? The government isn't illegal, it isn't a junta, and your obvious pro-fascist bias coupled with your country of origin gives you less than zero moral authority.
It's not a junta but the current government is the definition of illegal. Unless you take the view that legality is purely dependent on recognition by foreign entities, and only ones you believe are in the "right"
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On March 03 2014 06:23 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:18 Tobblish wrote:
And people say that Russia is not capable anymore to commit stupid acts like these because of NATO and UN.
Are there any reports on how many troops Russia have inside of the Crimean territory?
I honestly can't see any other outcome other than Crimea going into Russian hands. (or at least a major part of it)
No force will be used by either side, it have potential to change the world. (Israel would be screwed instantly) Once more: 1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business. 2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans throwing molotovs can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard.
No one is hurting anyone in Crimea, there are no random hooligans throwing molotovs. The only thing that is happening is that Ukrainian Army bases -- of an army zeo the most pro-Russian guy there is admits is not listening to the evil fascist nazis -- are being surrounded and invaded by Russian troops. Since the pretext of the invasion is a race based threat and since the Ukrainian Army is not conducting this race based threat then what is the justification? I am waiting for zeo to quickly photoshop some SS crests on the Ukrainian Army guys to explain away in the meantime though please keep butting in. Palerider is asleep and you bring much needed levity with your commentary while he is missing.
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On March 03 2014 06:25 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:23 unigolyn wrote:On March 03 2014 06:18 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:14 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:13 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:
[quote]
Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. The role of the civilian defense force in Crimea is to protect the rights of the people in Crimea, what don't you understand? There is no legitimate control over the country, people need to protect themselves. From the Army you just said the evil fascist nazi genociders who clearly will begin to exterminate the one pure russian race at any moment dont control? That is why the army isn't listening to Kiev. They don't want to attack innocent citizens of Ukraine who's only crime is not listening to the illegal government in Kiev. Could you please stop being a propagandist? The government isn't illegal, it isn't a junta, and your obvious pro-fascist bias coupled with your country of origin gives you less than zero moral authority. thats not fair. Just because Serbia is the only other modern European country next to Russia to pursue foreign policy based on race and not national boundaries doesnt mean zeo wasnt opposed to the Serbian dictator who did so.
I'd completely agree if he wasn't a rabid proponent of that remaining dictator.
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On March 03 2014 06:25 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:23 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:18 Tobblish wrote:
And people say that Russia is not capable anymore to commit stupid acts like these because of NATO and UN.
Are there any reports on how many troops Russia have inside of the Crimean territory?
I honestly can't see any other outcome other than Crimea going into Russian hands. (or at least a major part of it)
No force will be used by either side, it have potential to change the world. (Israel would be screwed instantly) Once more: 1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business. 2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard. So you need to invade countries now to deal with random hooligans, that's what you're saying? I might not agree to what Sub40 is saying, but you're not an ounce better.
Wtf? I'm saying his logic that "Kiev government must have control of the Ukrainian army, otherwise why would Russian forces surround Ukrainian bases" makes no sense.
Find one instance of me agreeing that Russia has to right to invade and I'll never post here again.
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On March 03 2014 06:26 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:23 unigolyn wrote:On March 03 2014 06:18 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:14 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:13 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:
[quote]
Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. The role of the civilian defense force in Crimea is to protect the rights of the people in Crimea, what don't you understand? There is no legitimate control over the country, people need to protect themselves. From the Army you just said the evil fascist nazi genociders who clearly will begin to exterminate the one pure russian race at any moment dont control? That is why the army isn't listening to Kiev. They don't want to attack innocent citizens of Ukraine who's only crime is not listening to the illegal government in Kiev. Could you please stop being a propagandist? The government isn't illegal, it isn't a junta, and your obvious pro-fascist bias coupled with your country of origin gives you less than zero moral authority. It's not a junta but the current government is the definition of illegal. Unless you take the view that legality is purely dependent on recognition by foreign entities, and only ones you believe are in the "right"
How is it illegal? If it was appointed by the parliament, it's legal. In what way is it illegal?
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On March 03 2014 06:28 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:25 m4ini wrote:On March 03 2014 06:23 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
Once more:
1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business.
2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard. So you need to invade countries now to deal with random hooligans, that's what you're saying? I might not agree to what Sub40 is saying, but you're not an ounce better. Wtf? I'm saying his logic that "Kiev government must have control of the Ukrainian army, otherwise why would Russian forces surround Ukrainian bases" makes no sense.
No, my logic is "why would Russian forces surrounded Ukrainian bases except as an act of war"
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On March 03 2014 06:26 unigolyn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:23 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:18 Tobblish wrote:
And people say that Russia is not capable anymore to commit stupid acts like these because of NATO and UN.
Are there any reports on how many troops Russia have inside of the Crimean territory?
I honestly can't see any other outcome other than Crimea going into Russian hands. (or at least a major part of it)
No force will be used by either side, it have potential to change the world. (Israel would be screwed instantly) Once more: 1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business. 2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans throwing molotovs can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard. By this logic the US should have invaded Canada during the Stanley Cup riots.
By what logic, the one you made up in your head? Where do I even mention anything to do with invading anything?
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On March 03 2014 06:29 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:28 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:25 m4ini wrote:On March 03 2014 06:23 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:
[quote]
NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict.
It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe.
So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard. So you need to invade countries now to deal with random hooligans, that's what you're saying? I might not agree to what Sub40 is saying, but you're not an ounce better. Wtf? I'm saying his logic that "Kiev government must have control of the Ukrainian army, otherwise why would Russian forces surround Ukrainian bases" makes no sense. No, my logic is "why would Russian forces surrounded Ukrainian bases except as an act of war"
No, it's not buddy, the quote chain I responded no dealt ONLY with whether the current government is in control of the army.
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On March 03 2014 06:29 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:26 unigolyn wrote:On March 03 2014 06:23 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:
[quote]
Once more:
1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business.
2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans throwing molotovs can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard. By this logic the US should have invaded Canada during the Stanley Cup riots. By what logic, the one you made up in your head? Where do I even mention anything to do with invading anything?
What are you even talking about? You're implicitly saying that the Russian position of "we need to defend ethnic Russians" is correct because of "hooligans throwing molotovs".
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On March 03 2014 06:23 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:On March 03 2014 05:49 Tobblish wrote:On March 03 2014 05:36 r.Evo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:18 Tobblish wrote:
And people say that Russia is not capable anymore to commit stupid acts like these because of NATO and UN.
Are there any reports on how many troops Russia have inside of the Crimean territory?
I honestly can't see any other outcome other than Crimea going into Russian hands. (or at least a major part of it)
No force will be used by either side, it have potential to change the world. (Israel would be screwed instantly) Once more: 1) NATO has nothing to do with this. Period. Ukraine is not a member state. Unless Russia shows aggression towards the territory of a member state it's literally none of their business. 2) The UN is as useless as usual. Just like the US veto'd most anti-US resolutions in the past Russia will veto any resolution against them. All the security council is good for is declaring some form of "We don't really like this and the Russians veto'd us!" NATO actually has a very important role in all of this, Ukraine do have treaties with NATO and have even asked them directly for help in this conflict. It is also one of NATO's top interest to see that Russia doesn't get a grip on Europe. So to simply say that NATO have nothing at all to do in this conflict is absurd. Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans throwing molotovs can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard.
Also random hooligans should be dealt with by the local police force. And if the police should somehow not be able to calm down (the nonexistent) violence: Why didn't Putin consult the organisation that could actually give him (and other parties ) a mandate for the peacekeeping operation? An organisation in which his nation is a veto-holder, btw.
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On March 03 2014 06:30 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:29 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:28 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:25 m4ini wrote:On March 03 2014 06:23 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 05:56 Twoflowers wrote:
[quote]
Too bad that the Ukraine government didn't organize a joint military excercise at the eastern border during the crisis. That would have been helpful The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. So only the Ukrainian army can hurt people? Random hooligans can't? Trying to logic with a little kid spouting random shit is really hard. So you need to invade countries now to deal with random hooligans, that's what you're saying? I might not agree to what Sub40 is saying, but you're not an ounce better. Wtf? I'm saying his logic that "Kiev government must have control of the Ukrainian army, otherwise why would Russian forces surround Ukrainian bases" makes no sense. No, my logic is "why would Russian forces surrounded Ukrainian bases except as an act of war" No, it's not buddy, the quote chain I responded no dealt ONLY with whether the current government is in control of the army.
Except
Wtf? I'm saying his logic that "Kiev government must have control of the Ukrainian army, otherwise why would Russian forces surround Ukrainian bases" makes no sense.
That's not what he's saying. Maybe i misunderstand him, but as i understand it, he's saying the exact opposite, making the reasoning of russia completely void.
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On March 03 2014 06:28 unigolyn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2014 06:26 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:23 unigolyn wrote:On March 03 2014 06:18 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:14 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:13 zeo wrote:On March 03 2014 06:10 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 06:08 Feartheguru wrote:On March 03 2014 06:04 Sub40APM wrote:On March 03 2014 05:59 zeo wrote:
[quote]
The junta in Kiev don't have any real control over the armed forces of Ukraine. That is why there was absolutely no attempt to organize any kind of defense of Crimea, or indeed any kind of military activity outside of their barracks. if evil fascist genociders of Kiev who wish to exterminate all glorious and free Russian victims of evil fascism have no control of the Ukrainian army then why are Ukrainian army barracks being surrender by Russian troops and Ukrainian soldiers forced to surrender their arms? If the Kiev government doesn't have control over the Ukrainian army, Russian troops cannot surround Ukrainian barracks? Mind = poof Invasion of Crimea is justified based on 'threat' to Russians. Since the Ukrainian army -- according to zeo -- is not responding to the evil genocide promoting fascists then the Russian troops threatening the Ukrainian barracks are not doing so to protect the one pure Russian race. The role of the civilian defense force in Crimea is to protect the rights of the people in Crimea, what don't you understand? There is no legitimate control over the country, people need to protect themselves. From the Army you just said the evil fascist nazi genociders who clearly will begin to exterminate the one pure russian race at any moment dont control? That is why the army isn't listening to Kiev. They don't want to attack innocent citizens of Ukraine who's only crime is not listening to the illegal government in Kiev. Could you please stop being a propagandist? The government isn't illegal, it isn't a junta, and your obvious pro-fascist bias coupled with your country of origin gives you less than zero moral authority. It's not a junta but the current government is the definition of illegal. Unless you take the view that legality is purely dependent on recognition by foreign entities, and only ones you believe are in the "right" How is it illegal? If it was appointed by the parliament, it's legal. In what way is it illegal?
It's illegal in the same way I consider the current Crimean government illegal (4% support in the latest election). An armed group takes over the government building, the parliament approves a new government under an implied threat. Do you also consider that Crimean government legal? (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with considering both of them legal, legality is a matter of debate, but collectively here we can't eat our cake and have it too)
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EPT
