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On December 14 2012 00:09 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 23:57 Femari wrote:
Any talk about hitting people until they die is truly irrelevant, and even so it would be hard to get someone on killing someone in self defense when your body naturally reacts this way. It's not relevant to the situation at hand, but it's relevant to your point that you should make sure you're "safe". The moment he stopped hitting them, he was less safe than when he was still hitting them. I don't see why urges and instincts are something that should be some sort of an ultimate excuse. Humans have the capacity to control their urges and basic instincts and are expected to do so - people do that all the time in everyday life, and MOST manage do it in a fight (and this was barely even a "fight") or other potentially dangerous or tense situations. You're not somehow clear of all responsibility just because you're scared or angry. The law should be more favorable to you in these situations, sure, but not to the point where you can get away with anything (upwards to a straight up murder).
I never said you should be able to get away with anything. I said you have the right to defend yourself when threatened. The moment he stopped hitting them he was just as safe because they were not making any motions that potentially would be a threat. When they did he was less safe and hit them again to maintain his own safety. He even told them to stay down.
As for the controlling your instincts, unless you're trained or have experience you don't really have the ability to control it that well.
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On December 14 2012 00:18 Spekulatius wrote:
I can't speak for the US of course but on the basis of German law, there's no discussion to be had.
1. State of assault
He was assaulted by another person. His life/health was in danger. Which gives him the right to
2. Use defensive measures
against the attacker by trying to stop his attack effectively and for a foreseeable future. He is permitted to hit them until they stop being a threat. Which, in that case, is until they stay down or get firmly held by bystanders/the police.
Hitting them with fists wouldn't have been equally effective. So he was allowed to use that kind of metal bar he was swinging.
There's no reason not to let him defend himself the way he did, seeing how the women tried to stand up with the intent of attacking him further.
That's what laws are for where I come from. Noone's fucking allowed to attack you for no valid reason. And if laws don't stop him/her from doing that, I will and I'm allowed to do so.
seems like you live in a different germany than i do.
violence even in self-defense gets punished by german courts. especially since in germany you NEVER expect people to wear guns/ be heavily armed even if they assault you.
he wouldn't necessarily be sentenced to prison but he would get AT LEAST a fine on every german court.
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yeah...jumping over the counter
well, bitches got what was coming, man rightly goes free
his actions may have been a bit overboard but we need to set a precedent against this dumb thug life behaviour going on
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I don't think it was necessary to continue striking when they were floored, very excessive and a cause for charges, despite he clear provocation.
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What he did was totally justified. If you've ever seen black girls fight, you'd know they go apeshit once the punches start flying. It might have looked like excessive violence, but you can't see the girls on the ground after they go down, they might have still been coming at him.
Episodes like this sicken me because shit doesn't truly hit the fan until the man hits back, and then every uppity feminist in the place loses their mind. One of the biggest beefs I have with our society is the notion that men simply aren't allowed to hit women. One day people will understand that just because you have a vagina doesn't mean there's an invisible forcefield shielding you from the fists of men, and that you can't just hit them and expect no recourse
/rant
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On December 14 2012 00:31 Golbat wrote:
What he did was totally justified. If you've ever seen black girls fight, you'd know they go apeshit once the punches start flying. It might have looked like excessive violence, but you can't see the girls on the ground after they go down, they might have still been coming at him.
Subtle racism is always the best
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How anyone can say this was excessive force is beyond me, it's very likely that they were drunk, or on some crazy drugs. When people are in that state a couple of blows wont cut it. He even tried to move away, but they continued to chase him, and its very clear they wanted to hurt him. He then proceded to pick up a metal pipe and hit them until they were laying still on the ground and was no longer a threat. And the morons who say he had other employers to help him, did you see them do anything? They didnt do jack shit.
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On December 14 2012 00:31 Golbat wrote:
What he did was totally justified. If you've ever seen black girls fight, you'd know they go apeshit once the punches start flying. It might have looked like excessive violence, but you can't see the girls on the ground after they go down, they might have still been coming at him.
Episodes like this sicken me because shit doesn't truly hit the fan until the man hits back, and then every uppity feminist in the place loses their mind. One of the biggest beefs I have with our society is the notion that men simply aren't allowed to hit women. One day people will understand that just because you have a vagina doesn't mean there's an invisible forcefield shielding you from the fists of men, and that you can't just hit them and expect no recourse
/rant
Does not matter if it was a woman, a child, or a 250pound body builder. He was hitting people on the ground. With a weapon.
In any civilized nation that man would have got at least 5 years in jail. But i guess this is america so money = human rights.
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It may seem bad on video, but the guy handled it ok in my opinion. It's not an easy situation and he was right telling them to stay down, because you don't know what will happen once the get up.
Couple of my friends were on a train when a really big guy came to pick a fight, told one of them to lick his boot. Of course he didn't, so the big guy punched him in the face. Then 2 of my friends took him down and the big guy got hit many times in the face and in the body. They held him down until he got calm and make the huge mistake of thinking it was over, and let him get up again. Then the big guy went for his bag and got a knife and tried to kill them. Luckily someone had called the cops and the train got to a station and they busted him. (my friends obv. got no charges for beating him up, but he was convicted of attempted manslaughter)
So moral of the story: better safe than sorry.
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Both are at fault. While I'd give the edge to the employee, it's clear from the clip that "self-defense" was excessive. The 'women' there (if you can call them that...) are much more of a threat to society than someone who over-reacts to a situation.
Anyway, I don't feel like anyone is really getting screwed unjustly in the end here.
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On December 14 2012 00:33 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:31 Golbat wrote:
What he did was totally justified. If you've ever seen black girls fight, you'd know they go apeshit once the punches start flying. It might have looked like excessive violence, but you can't see the girls on the ground after they go down, they might have still been coming at him.
Subtle racism is always the best
It's especially good when it isn't racism at all and someone else just takes two accurate descriptors and puts them together to create racism in his head.
On December 14 2012 00:35 Sea_Food wrote:
Does not matter if it was a woman, a child, or a 250pound body builder. He was hitting people on the ground. With a weapon.
In any civilized nation that man would have got at least 5 years in jail. But i guess this is america so money = human rights.
If you listen, he was telling them to stay on the ground, and hitting them when they tried to get back up thats's different than if they were just laying there and he was wailing on them, just because they are on the ground doesn't mean they aren't a danger. I like the america hating though, that guy was totally rich as fuck working for minimum wage at McDonalds.
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On December 14 2012 00:36 Golbat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:33 Klipsys wrote:On December 14 2012 00:31 Golbat wrote:
What he did was totally justified. If you've ever seen black girls fight, you'd know they go apeshit once the punches start flying. It might have looked like excessive violence, but you can't see the girls on the ground after they go down, they might have still been coming at him.
Subtle racism is always the best It's especially good when it isn't racism at all and someone else just takes two accurate descriptors and puts them together to create racism in his head.
it actually is racism if you are making general statements about "black girls".
there is no context needed.
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On December 14 2012 00:35 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:31 Golbat wrote:
What he did was totally justified. If you've ever seen black girls fight, you'd know they go apeshit once the punches start flying. It might have looked like excessive violence, but you can't see the girls on the ground after they go down, they might have still been coming at him.
Episodes like this sicken me because shit doesn't truly hit the fan until the man hits back, and then every uppity feminist in the place loses their mind. One of the biggest beefs I have with our society is the notion that men simply aren't allowed to hit women. One day people will understand that just because you have a vagina doesn't mean there's an invisible forcefield shielding you from the fists of men, and that you can't just hit them and expect no recourse
/rant Does not matter if it was a woman, a child, or a 250pound body builder. He was hitting people on the ground. With a weapon. In any civilized nation that man would have got at least 5 years in jail. But i guess this is america so money = human rights.
There is no way for us to reasonably know if they were actually on the ground or in the process of trying to get up again. If the latter is true he was not at fault at all.
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On December 14 2012 00:28 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:18 Spekulatius wrote:
I can't speak for the US of course but on the basis of German law, there's no discussion to be had.
1. State of assault
He was assaulted by another person. His life/health was in danger. Which gives him the right to
2. Use defensive measures
against the attacker by trying to stop his attack effectively and for a foreseeable future. He is permitted to hit them until they stop being a threat. Which, in that case, is until they stay down or get firmly held by bystanders/the police.
Hitting them with fists wouldn't have been equally effective. So he was allowed to use that kind of metal bar he was swinging.
There's no reason not to let him defend himself the way he did, seeing how the women tried to stand up with the intent of attacking him further.
That's what laws are for where I come from. Noone's fucking allowed to attack you for no valid reason. And if laws don't stop him/her from doing that, I will and I'm allowed to do so. seems like you live in a different germany than i do. violence even in self-defense gets punished by german courts. especially since in germany you NEVER expect people to wear guns/ be heavily armed even if they assault you. he wouldn't necessarily be sentenced to prison but he would get AT LEAST a fine on every german court.
Common misconception, but flat out wrong.
Just look at this recent case: A member of a gang shot a policeman through a door thinking his life was in danger (which it never was). He was acquitted on all charges. No fine, no nothing.
Linku
There's more, less extreme examples. I can dig them up if you like me to.
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On December 14 2012 00:28 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:18 Spekulatius wrote:
I can't speak for the US of course but on the basis of German law, there's no discussion to be had.
1. State of assault
He was assaulted by another person. His life/health was in danger. Which gives him the right to
2. Use defensive measures
against the attacker by trying to stop his attack effectively and for a foreseeable future. He is permitted to hit them until they stop being a threat. Which, in that case, is until they stay down or get firmly held by bystanders/the police.
Hitting them with fists wouldn't have been equally effective. So he was allowed to use that kind of metal bar he was swinging.
There's no reason not to let him defend himself the way he did, seeing how the women tried to stand up with the intent of attacking him further.
That's what laws are for where I come from. Noone's fucking allowed to attack you for no valid reason. And if laws don't stop him/her from doing that, I will and I'm allowed to do so. seems like you live in a different germany than i do. violence even in self-defense gets punished by german courts. especially since in germany you NEVER expect people to wear guns/ be heavily armed even if they assault you. he wouldn't necessarily be sentenced to prison but he would get AT LEAST a fine on every german court.
Erm, ... No.
Self-defense is permitted. Google "Notwehr".
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On December 14 2012 00:38 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:35 Sea_Food wrote:On December 14 2012 00:31 Golbat wrote:
What he did was totally justified. If you've ever seen black girls fight, you'd know they go apeshit once the punches start flying. It might have looked like excessive violence, but you can't see the girls on the ground after they go down, they might have still been coming at him.
Episodes like this sicken me because shit doesn't truly hit the fan until the man hits back, and then every uppity feminist in the place loses their mind. One of the biggest beefs I have with our society is the notion that men simply aren't allowed to hit women. One day people will understand that just because you have a vagina doesn't mean there's an invisible forcefield shielding you from the fists of men, and that you can't just hit them and expect no recourse
/rant Does not matter if it was a woman, a child, or a 250pound body builder. He was hitting people on the ground. With a weapon. In any civilized nation that man would have got at least 5 years in jail. But i guess this is america so money = human rights. There is no way for us to reasonably know if they were actually on the ground or in the process of trying to get up again. If the latter is true he was not at fault at all.
Someone lying on the ground being hit with a metal pipes does not stay still to take the beating. Yeah defiantly deserves some more.
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man that woman kept screaming stop made me cringe oh well they had it comming don't think any of them got it worse tbh fired from mcdonald im sure he can still manage to get a better job etc
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On December 14 2012 00:38 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:36 Golbat wrote:On December 14 2012 00:33 Klipsys wrote:On December 14 2012 00:31 Golbat wrote:
What he did was totally justified. If you've ever seen black girls fight, you'd know they go apeshit once the punches start flying. It might have looked like excessive violence, but you can't see the girls on the ground after they go down, they might have still been coming at him.
Subtle racism is always the best It's especially good when it isn't racism at all and someone else just takes two accurate descriptors and puts them together to create racism in his head. it actually is racism if you are making general statements about "black girls". there is no context needed.
You must not know the definition of racism if that's what you believe
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As was mentioned earlier in this thread, the McDonald’s employee has already been fully acquitted. His name is Rayon McIntosh and you can find a larger article on his acquittal here:
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20111203/greenwich-village-soho/mcdonalds-beating-cook-rayon-mcintosh-elated-be-free
You can also find a couple articles on the two women here, both of whom were charged for their part in the incident:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/nyregion/2-women-in-mcdonalds-fight-plead-not-guilty.html
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20120912/greenwich-village/mcdonalds-beating-victims-avoid-jail-time-for-role-brawl
The long and the short of it is that one of the ladies got five years probation and one got ten days community service. Neither will see jail time for their crimes.
Personally, I feel bad for the two women. They were viciously beaten for attempting to commit what would probably (you never know for sure, which is the problem, but probably) have been a much less severe attack on Mr. McIntosh.
Nevertheless, I cannot find fault with McIntosh, and I am glad that the courts did not either. He attempted to retreat from the situation, and then he did what he thought he had to do to protect himself when that retreat wasn’t enough. I imagine that spending ten years in prison does certain things to you mentally. I imagine that there were dozens of times where he would have had to defend himself against grievous bodily injury while he was serving his time, and those instincts don’t just disappear overnight. These ladies should not have forced his hand.
Ultimately it’s a valuable lesson. If baseline levels of emotional maturity and human decency are not enough to keep you from physically assaulting perfect strangers, maybe the thought that the stranger might be an ex-convict who will snap and hospitalize you might give you pause.
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On December 14 2012 00:39 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:38 Hypemeup wrote:On December 14 2012 00:35 Sea_Food wrote:On December 14 2012 00:31 Golbat wrote:
What he did was totally justified. If you've ever seen black girls fight, you'd know they go apeshit once the punches start flying. It might have looked like excessive violence, but you can't see the girls on the ground after they go down, they might have still been coming at him.
Episodes like this sicken me because shit doesn't truly hit the fan until the man hits back, and then every uppity feminist in the place loses their mind. One of the biggest beefs I have with our society is the notion that men simply aren't allowed to hit women. One day people will understand that just because you have a vagina doesn't mean there's an invisible forcefield shielding you from the fists of men, and that you can't just hit them and expect no recourse
/rant Does not matter if it was a woman, a child, or a 250pound body builder. He was hitting people on the ground. With a weapon. In any civilized nation that man would have got at least 5 years in jail. But i guess this is america so money = human rights. There is no way for us to reasonably know if they were actually on the ground or in the process of trying to get up again. If the latter is true he was not at fault at all. Someone lying on the ground being hit with a metal pipes does not stay still to take the beating. Yeah defiantly deserves some more.
You apparently do not understand what I meant.
From the video available to us, there is no way for us to know if there were attacking his legs or trying to get up to go at him again, since we could not see them behind the counter. If we had the store cameras showing us a diffrent angle, you might have an argument.
On December 14 2012 00:39 Mawi wrote:
man that woman kept screaming stop made me cringe oh well they had it comming don't think any of them got it worse tbh fired from mcdonald im sure he can still manage to get a better job etc
The way she was screaming "SHHHHTAAAP" was indeed cringe-worthy.
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EPT
