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On January 13 2018 00:49 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 00:47 Danglars wrote:On January 12 2018 22:48 farvacola wrote:
As I have said repeatedly, this notion that you can accurately describe the US via broad metrics or generalizations entirely mistakes the extremely different-among-itself nature of this country. Louisiana, to pick one among a variety of "bad places here in the US," can easily compete with some of the worst nations in the world in terms of healthcare, law and order, and even basic sanitation. And it's not alone. So yeah, Mr. California on his high horse complete with "if it's so bad, go to Burundi" spiel entirely misses the point. There are millions of Americans who live in conditions that absolutely justify statements of national shame, and sentiments that amount to "well there are some awesome places in the US too, don't complain that way" are tone-deaf. Louisiana isn’t bad enough to compete with some of the worst countries. You have to put heavy qualifications on what you mean by the worst countries to even get close to a sane opinion. I actually heard from an insider in the White house that Trump was going to expel Louisiana from the United States, and then stop any and all immigration from that area, as it is a 'shit hole'.
If you’re looking for a job, I think CNN might be a good fit. In my opinion, link it to a Fox and Friends piece or personal feud with governor/congressman/senator from that state.
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On January 13 2018 02:42 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 00:29 Introvert wrote:Trump said something he shouldn't have, but criticizing him isn't enough, you must throw out your reason too. Trump denied saying that about Haiti, which seems true*. Meanwhile we have all these high horse media outlets who feel like they MUST use the exact word even though it was something he said in a private conversation, as if a potty mouth president is new. No sense, all drama. * + Show Spoiler + Exactly. Criticizing him isn’t enough. If it’s a nine or ten on the outrageous remark, put another lie and a half on top to crank it up to 15 (the US is a shithole country, or he referred to Haiti). It doesn’t make Trump look better, it just makes more than Trump look worse.
People are not accepting the fact that a statement like this is coming from the US president. do you think the American head of state should act with some degree of dignity or not? It's really important that people don't just accept that this is the new normal.
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On January 13 2018 02:44 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 00:49 Plansix wrote:On January 13 2018 00:47 Danglars wrote:On January 12 2018 22:48 farvacola wrote:
As I have said repeatedly, this notion that you can accurately describe the US via broad metrics or generalizations entirely mistakes the extremely different-among-itself nature of this country. Louisiana, to pick one among a variety of "bad places here in the US," can easily compete with some of the worst nations in the world in terms of healthcare, law and order, and even basic sanitation. And it's not alone. So yeah, Mr. California on his high horse complete with "if it's so bad, go to Burundi" spiel entirely misses the point. There are millions of Americans who live in conditions that absolutely justify statements of national shame, and sentiments that amount to "well there are some awesome places in the US too, don't complain that way" are tone-deaf. Louisiana isn’t bad enough to compete with some of the worst countries. You have to put heavy qualifications on what you mean by the worst countries to even get close to a sane opinion. Who cares? If people in Louisiana can’t get quality healthcare, education and services when compared to other Americans, what does it matter? Because he didn’t compare Louisiana with other states, he compared Louisiana with “some of the worst nations in the world.” I don’t know, maybe you can admit that’s dead wrong before commenting that nobody cares?
If you don't know, why are you asking me to admit I was wrong? You don't know.
And his point still stands, your entire line of reasoning is tone deft and misses the entire thrust of the discussion.
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On January 13 2018 02:50 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 02:42 Danglars wrote:On January 13 2018 00:29 Introvert wrote:Trump said something he shouldn't have, but criticizing him isn't enough, you must throw out your reason too. Trump denied saying that about Haiti, which seems true*. Meanwhile we have all these high horse media outlets who feel like they MUST use the exact word even though it was something he said in a private conversation, as if a potty mouth president is new. No sense, all drama. * + Show Spoiler + Exactly. Criticizing him isn’t enough. If it’s a nine or ten on the outrageous remark, put another lie and a half on top to crank it up to 15 (the US is a shithole country, or he referred to Haiti). It doesn’t make Trump look better, it just makes more than Trump look worse. People are not accepting the fact that a statement like this is coming from the US president. do you think the American head of state should act with some degree of dignity or not? It's really important that people don't just accept that this is the new normal.
In line with your point:
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On January 13 2018 02:50 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 02:42 Danglars wrote:On January 13 2018 00:29 Introvert wrote:Trump said something he shouldn't have, but criticizing him isn't enough, you must throw out your reason too. Trump denied saying that about Haiti, which seems true*. Meanwhile we have all these high horse media outlets who feel like they MUST use the exact word even though it was something he said in a private conversation, as if a potty mouth president is new. No sense, all drama. * + Show Spoiler + Exactly. Criticizing him isn’t enough. If it’s a nine or ten on the outrageous remark, put another lie and a half on top to crank it up to 15 (the US is a shithole country, or he referred to Haiti). It doesn’t make Trump look better, it just makes more than Trump look worse. People are not accepting the fact that a statement like this is coming from the US president. do you think the American head of state should act with some degree of dignity or not? It's really important that people don't just accept that this is the new normal.
Not the subject of the post. The subject is reporting that swayed into falsehood and opinion reporting that lies about the US’s standards compared to the worst nations in the world.
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On January 13 2018 02:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 02:44 Danglars wrote:On January 13 2018 00:49 Plansix wrote:On January 13 2018 00:47 Danglars wrote:On January 12 2018 22:48 farvacola wrote:
As I have said repeatedly, this notion that you can accurately describe the US via broad metrics or generalizations entirely mistakes the extremely different-among-itself nature of this country. Louisiana, to pick one among a variety of "bad places here in the US," can easily compete with some of the worst nations in the world in terms of healthcare, law and order, and even basic sanitation. And it's not alone. So yeah, Mr. California on his high horse complete with "if it's so bad, go to Burundi" spiel entirely misses the point. There are millions of Americans who live in conditions that absolutely justify statements of national shame, and sentiments that amount to "well there are some awesome places in the US too, don't complain that way" are tone-deaf. Louisiana isn’t bad enough to compete with some of the worst countries. You have to put heavy qualifications on what you mean by the worst countries to even get close to a sane opinion. Who cares? If people in Louisiana can’t get quality healthcare, education and services when compared to other Americans, what does it matter? Because he didn’t compare Louisiana with other states, he compared Louisiana with “some of the worst nations in the world.” I don’t know, maybe you can admit that’s dead wrong before commenting that nobody cares? If you don't know, why are you asking me to admit I was wrong? You don't know. And his point still stands, your entire line of reasoning is tone deft and misses the entire thrust of the discussion.
Then you’re living in a post-facts world. I don’t agree with you that calling out lies must be ignored because you don’t care and you think the thrust was elsewhere. If you want a logical thrust to anything, don’t construct lies. If you’re willing to ignore lies, don’t presume everyone else has to excuse them to comply with the thrust. That’s ignorance.
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On January 13 2018 02:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 02:50 Nyxisto wrote:On January 13 2018 02:42 Danglars wrote:On January 13 2018 00:29 Introvert wrote:Trump said something he shouldn't have, but criticizing him isn't enough, you must throw out your reason too. Trump denied saying that about Haiti, which seems true*. Meanwhile we have all these high horse media outlets who feel like they MUST use the exact word even though it was something he said in a private conversation, as if a potty mouth president is new. No sense, all drama. * + Show Spoiler + Exactly. Criticizing him isn’t enough. If it’s a nine or ten on the outrageous remark, put another lie and a half on top to crank it up to 15 (the US is a shithole country, or he referred to Haiti). It doesn’t make Trump look better, it just makes more than Trump look worse. People are not accepting the fact that a statement like this is coming from the US president. do you think the American head of state should act with some degree of dignity or not? It's really important that people don't just accept that this is the new normal. In line with your point: https://twitter.com/SteveKingIA/status/951803721884884993
I love that he is so god damn stupid he can't figure out that we are talking about legal immigrants.
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On January 13 2018 02:58 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 02:53 Plansix wrote:On January 13 2018 02:44 Danglars wrote:On January 13 2018 00:49 Plansix wrote:On January 13 2018 00:47 Danglars wrote:On January 12 2018 22:48 farvacola wrote:
As I have said repeatedly, this notion that you can accurately describe the US via broad metrics or generalizations entirely mistakes the extremely different-among-itself nature of this country. Louisiana, to pick one among a variety of "bad places here in the US," can easily compete with some of the worst nations in the world in terms of healthcare, law and order, and even basic sanitation. And it's not alone. So yeah, Mr. California on his high horse complete with "if it's so bad, go to Burundi" spiel entirely misses the point. There are millions of Americans who live in conditions that absolutely justify statements of national shame, and sentiments that amount to "well there are some awesome places in the US too, don't complain that way" are tone-deaf. Louisiana isn’t bad enough to compete with some of the worst countries. You have to put heavy qualifications on what you mean by the worst countries to even get close to a sane opinion. Who cares? If people in Louisiana can’t get quality healthcare, education and services when compared to other Americans, what does it matter? Because he didn’t compare Louisiana with other states, he compared Louisiana with “some of the worst nations in the world.” I don’t know, maybe you can admit that’s dead wrong before commenting that nobody cares? If you don't know, why are you asking me to admit I was wrong? You don't know. And his point still stands, your entire line of reasoning is tone deft and misses the entire thrust of the discussion. Then you’re living in a post-facts world. I don’t agree with you that calling out lies must be ignored because you don’t care and you think the thrust was elsewhere. If you want a logical thrust to anything, don’t construct lies. If you’re willing to ignore lies, don’t presume everyone else has to excuse them to comply with the thrust. That’s ignorance.
What is the lie? You act like the bringer of truth when we are all discussing something that can't even be measured. Shithole isn't a precises measurement of quality. It isn't defined by the worst place on the planet at a given time. It is entirely possible for a bombed out section of Syria and the house with the crazy lady who is a hoarder in my town to both be shitholes at the same time. In fact, that is the reality right now. Both places are unlivable for different reasons.
To some people in the country, this place is a shithole. It is their own personal shithole. There are shitholes across the of varying quality. But America is the one they reside in and they are going to call it what it is to them. You should take a step back and think about why they are taking that harsh stance, rather than trying to discredit their views simply because you feel the country is just "not great".
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On January 13 2018 02:58 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 02:53 Plansix wrote:On January 13 2018 02:44 Danglars wrote:On January 13 2018 00:49 Plansix wrote:On January 13 2018 00:47 Danglars wrote:On January 12 2018 22:48 farvacola wrote:
As I have said repeatedly, this notion that you can accurately describe the US via broad metrics or generalizations entirely mistakes the extremely different-among-itself nature of this country. Louisiana, to pick one among a variety of "bad places here in the US," can easily compete with some of the worst nations in the world in terms of healthcare, law and order, and even basic sanitation. And it's not alone. So yeah, Mr. California on his high horse complete with "if it's so bad, go to Burundi" spiel entirely misses the point. There are millions of Americans who live in conditions that absolutely justify statements of national shame, and sentiments that amount to "well there are some awesome places in the US too, don't complain that way" are tone-deaf. Louisiana isn’t bad enough to compete with some of the worst countries. You have to put heavy qualifications on what you mean by the worst countries to even get close to a sane opinion. Who cares? If people in Louisiana can’t get quality healthcare, education and services when compared to other Americans, what does it matter? Because he didn’t compare Louisiana with other states, he compared Louisiana with “some of the worst nations in the world.” I don’t know, maybe you can admit that’s dead wrong before commenting that nobody cares? If you don't know, why are you asking me to admit I was wrong? You don't know. And his point still stands, your entire line of reasoning is tone deft and misses the entire thrust of the discussion. Then you’re living in a post-facts world. I don’t agree with you that calling out lies must be ignored because you don’t care and you think the thrust was elsewhere. If you want a logical thrust to anything, don’t construct lies. If you’re willing to ignore lies, don’t presume everyone else has to excuse them to comply with the thrust. That’s ignorance.
He said without the slightest self-reflection.
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On January 13 2018 02:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 02:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 13 2018 02:50 Nyxisto wrote:On January 13 2018 02:42 Danglars wrote:On January 13 2018 00:29 Introvert wrote:Trump said something he shouldn't have, but criticizing him isn't enough, you must throw out your reason too. Trump denied saying that about Haiti, which seems true*. Meanwhile we have all these high horse media outlets who feel like they MUST use the exact word even though it was something he said in a private conversation, as if a potty mouth president is new. No sense, all drama. * + Show Spoiler + Exactly. Criticizing him isn’t enough. If it’s a nine or ten on the outrageous remark, put another lie and a half on top to crank it up to 15 (the US is a shithole country, or he referred to Haiti). It doesn’t make Trump look better, it just makes more than Trump look worse. People are not accepting the fact that a statement like this is coming from the US president. do you think the American head of state should act with some degree of dignity or not? It's really important that people don't just accept that this is the new normal. In line with your point: https://twitter.com/SteveKingIA/status/951803721884884993 I love that he is so god damn stupid he can't figure out that we are talking about legal immigrants.
"We?" He is talking about hypocrisy and having an inconsistent and opportunistic worldview. There aren't fences separating issues like you might think.
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On January 13 2018 03:24 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 02:59 Plansix wrote:On January 13 2018 02:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 13 2018 02:50 Nyxisto wrote:On January 13 2018 02:42 Danglars wrote:On January 13 2018 00:29 Introvert wrote:Trump said something he shouldn't have, but criticizing him isn't enough, you must throw out your reason too. Trump denied saying that about Haiti, which seems true*. Meanwhile we have all these high horse media outlets who feel like they MUST use the exact word even though it was something he said in a private conversation, as if a potty mouth president is new. No sense, all drama. * + Show Spoiler + Exactly. Criticizing him isn’t enough. If it’s a nine or ten on the outrageous remark, put another lie and a half on top to crank it up to 15 (the US is a shithole country, or he referred to Haiti). It doesn’t make Trump look better, it just makes more than Trump look worse. People are not accepting the fact that a statement like this is coming from the US president. do you think the American head of state should act with some degree of dignity or not? It's really important that people don't just accept that this is the new normal. In line with your point: https://twitter.com/SteveKingIA/status/951803721884884993 I love that he is so god damn stupid he can't figure out that we are talking about legal immigrants. "We?" He is talking about hypocrisy and having an inconsistent and opportunistic worldview. There aren't fences separating issues like you might think.
Steve King is a deeply stupid, ignorant, racist clown. He is not the hill you should die on. There are better people in the Republican party.
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On January 13 2018 03:24 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 02:59 Plansix wrote:On January 13 2018 02:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 13 2018 02:50 Nyxisto wrote:On January 13 2018 02:42 Danglars wrote:On January 13 2018 00:29 Introvert wrote:Trump said something he shouldn't have, but criticizing him isn't enough, you must throw out your reason too. Trump denied saying that about Haiti, which seems true*. Meanwhile we have all these high horse media outlets who feel like they MUST use the exact word even though it was something he said in a private conversation, as if a potty mouth president is new. No sense, all drama. * + Show Spoiler + Exactly. Criticizing him isn’t enough. If it’s a nine or ten on the outrageous remark, put another lie and a half on top to crank it up to 15 (the US is a shithole country, or he referred to Haiti). It doesn’t make Trump look better, it just makes more than Trump look worse. People are not accepting the fact that a statement like this is coming from the US president. do you think the American head of state should act with some degree of dignity or not? It's really important that people don't just accept that this is the new normal. In line with your point: https://twitter.com/SteveKingIA/status/951803721884884993 I love that he is so god damn stupid he can't figure out that we are talking about legal immigrants. "We?" He is talking about hypocrisy and having an inconsistent and opportunistic worldview. There aren't fences separating issues like you might think.
Is this you putting forth the argument of "Either we should indeed call them shitholes or we don't need to help them?"
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United States43533 Posts
Trump's point is that people from African "shitholes" make bad legal immigrants and that people from northern Europe make good legal immigrants. Trump wasn't talking about the desirability of these places as a vacation destination, he was expressing his view on the value of the people from these places.
That's the essence of the shitholes comment. Not that the places are shitholes, but that the people who come from shitholes are shit.
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On January 13 2018 04:14 KwarK wrote:
Trump's point is that people from African "shitholes" make bad legal immigrants and that people from northern Europe make good legal immigrants. Trump wasn't talking about the desirability of these places as a vacation destination, he was expressing his view on the value of the people from these places.
That's the essence of the shitholes comment. Not that the places are shitholes, but that the people who come from shitholes are shit.
Feels weird that you have to explain that but after reading a lot of the comments I'm glad you did.
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I can't believe that Trump voters are trying to deflect attention to the media based on points ("he only said it about Africa") that are about 2% as significant as the content of Trump's statements.
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On January 13 2018 04:20 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 04:14 KwarK wrote:
Trump's point is that people from African "shitholes" make bad legal immigrants and that people from northern Europe make good legal immigrants. Trump wasn't talking about the desirability of these places as a vacation destination, he was expressing his view on the value of the people from these places.
That's the essence of the shitholes comment. Not that the places are shitholes, but that the people who come from shitholes are shit. Feels weird that you have to explain that but after reading a lot of the comments I'm glad you did.
The sad part is that this type of discussion is common place. Someone says “Black communities are filled with crime and drugs” and then defends that statement by saying it is, on average, factually accurate. They completely side step the part that their statement means they believe “Black communities and the people in them are worthless.”
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On January 13 2018 04:27 Doodsmack wrote:
I can't believe that Trump voters are trying to deflect attention to the media based on points ("he only said it about Africa") that are about 2% as significant as the content of Trump's statements.
why? what's hard to believe about poor quality argumentation, whataboutism, and deflection? it seems like what one would expect.
or maybe i'm reading you too literally and you simply meant to express upset/disgust at those actions.
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The explanation you gave, KwarK, is implied no? Shithole countries will produce shit people. Exemplary countries will produce exemplary people. So he still called the places shitholes and he still called everyone coming from their decendants of the shithole, bringers of shit. This guy just has no filter. Zero tact and zero diplomacy skill lol.
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United States43533 Posts
On January 13 2018 04:35 Uldridge wrote:
The explanation you gave, KwarK, is implied no? Shithole countries will produce shit people. Exemplary countries will produce exemplary people. So he still called the places shitholes and he still called everyone coming from their decendants of the shithole, bringers of shit. This guy just has no filter. Zero tact and zero diplomacy skill lol.
It needs to be spelled out to stop people making it all about "but like, look at Africa, it's very poor over there and the schools aren't great" etc. It needs to be made explicitly clear that we're not talking about other countries, we're talking about a choice between two hypothetical American citizens living in America. The crime rate in the country their parents were born in is not relevant to the choice between two hypothetical American citizens. What Trump is saying here is that African countries provide worse genetic stock for new American citizens than northern European countries. That's the part of the shithole they're bringing with them.
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the "white Scandinavian immigrant" dogwhistle is such a favourite talking point of supremacists that it doesn't even qualify as a dogwhistle any more. I'm also pretty sure everybody knows this already and the only reason people deny it is because they're unwilling to admit that they're racists or they just want to troll.
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EPT
