In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On December 19 2017 17:50 mozoku wrote: Ehh, that's still not that close to what you said and the article is definitely trying to spin a narrative.
For example, it claims the PKI was openly working within the system and unarmed. And that Suharto "blamed" the coup on a PKI plot. In reality, the PKI was in power to begin with and lost power when a preemptive assassination of some alleged leaders of a suspected coup went badly wrong. That hardly rings of the "innocent victim portrayal in article. Not that that justifies anything on its own.
Here's a recent NYT article that covers the same cables, but with less innuendo.
The US involvement is limited to handing over some lists of known communists to be purged and aiding in media suppression. Not a shining star for the US, but not really an outlier by the standards of the time. I'm less sympathetic to some geopolitics-based justification for immorality in 2017, but the Cold War was a time when there were legitimate survival motives in play.
It's hardly comparable to, say, what the British Empire did--which is the impression you give when you accuse the US of supporting genocide, mass enslavement, and resource exploitation. For one, the US was primarily motivated by self-defense in the Cold War, rather than profit. Second, no enslavement actually happened. Third, Indonesia (voluntarily) welcomed US corporations because it felt the investment would simulate the economy--which it most certainly did. The US didn't show up with an army and enslave/massacre the locals for profit.
Moreover, it's much easier to say the US should have acted more in alignment with its stated principles on 2017 than it was in 1967. Given the uncertainty of the period, I can sympathize with US leaders at the time compromising on principles some to err on the side of keeping its citizens safe. I would expect Indonesians to do the same to Americans if the situation were reversed, and I wouldn't think any less of them for it.
So you're saying you would be ok with a million murdered Americans if it furthered Indonesian economic interests? Are you taking the piss?
There was no legitimate survival interest in this genocide, it was an economic coup, organized and supported by America and the UK, with the aim of stamping out an ideology that they didn't like and the secondary goal getting an infinite supply of cheap labour and cheap natural resources from a country that should be one of the richest in the world. A million people killed, with the full support of the US government. Minimize it all you want, its a disgrace.
Aren't we doing something pretty similar right now with another degree of separation (more or less) through Israel in Myanmar?
Or Saudi Arabia and Yemen?
Another good(?) example.
@Nevuk
lol that was something else. I imagine after Spencer mentioned the tweet his mentions got worse than usual, but that seems a little dramatic.
Coates and I come from a great tradition of the black freedom struggle. He represents the neoliberal wing that sounds militant about white supremacy but renders black fightback invisible. This wing reaps the benefits of the neoliberal establishment that rewards silences on issues such as Wall Street greed or Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and people.
The disagreement between Coates and me is clear: any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously misleading. So it is with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ worldview.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Then Spencer trolled in by "agreeing" with West, but just about the "fetishizing white supremacy" without the rest of the context. Then his mentions went to shit and he left twitter.
I think I don't have enough background in discussing these issues to know what is implied by:
"He represents the neoliberal wing that sounds militant about white supremacy but renders black fightback invisible. This wing reaps the benefits of the neoliberal establishment that rewards silences on issues such as Wall Street greed or Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and people."
What is "black fightback"? What neoliberal wing sounds militant about white supremacy?
The Republican tax bill that the House and Senate are set to pass as soon as Tuesday night would give most Americans a tax cut next year, according to a new analysis. However, it would by far benefit the richest Americans the most. Meanwhile, many lower- and middle-class Americans would have higher taxes a decade from now ... unless a future Congress extends the cuts.
The average household would get a tax cut of $1,610 in 2018, a bump of about 2.2 percent in that average household's income, according to a report released Monday by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan think tank that has been critical of the tax overhaul plan.
However, extremes make averages, and the benefits would be much larger for richer households. A household earning $1 million or more would get an average cut of $69,660, an income bump of 3.3 percent. Compare that to the average household earning $50,000 to $75,000, which would get a tax cut of $870, or 1.6 percent.
Source This is a great tax bill. I plan on being in that 1% come this time next year, so I am all for it. Sorry peasants. Eat cake. /s
We are making progress. We've gone from "this raises taxes on the middle class" to " the benefit is larger for the rich." As if $870 is nothing.
On December 20 2017 02:01 Mohdoo wrote: Is there a good calculator for tax bill stuff? Or is it changing so much that nothing is accurate? Every single article I see talks about stuff like 30-70k vs million. What about the stuff in between!?!?
Lol, I actually have to agree with Cornel West on something. Fuck.
On a long enough time line the law of averages was bound to win out? The discussion that follows is more interesting that the affirmation of our beliefs, IMO. I'm sure Coates has more than a few critiques of West.
The Republican tax bill that the House and Senate are set to pass as soon as Tuesday night would give most Americans a tax cut next year, according to a new analysis. However, it would by far benefit the richest Americans the most. Meanwhile, many lower- and middle-class Americans would have higher taxes a decade from now ... unless a future Congress extends the cuts.
The average household would get a tax cut of $1,610 in 2018, a bump of about 2.2 percent in that average household's income, according to a report released Monday by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan think tank that has been critical of the tax overhaul plan.
However, extremes make averages, and the benefits would be much larger for richer households. A household earning $1 million or more would get an average cut of $69,660, an income bump of 3.3 percent. Compare that to the average household earning $50,000 to $75,000, which would get a tax cut of $870, or 1.6 percent.
Source This is a great tax bill. I plan on being in that 1% come this time next year, so I am all for it. Sorry peasants. Eat cake. /s
We are making progress. We've gone from "this raises taxes on the middle class" to " the benefit is larger for the rich." As if $870 is nothing.
yes on the short term it has some upsides for people. While massively reducing the governments income. Which inevitably will lead to cuts to much needed programs and not to the actual waste.
These cuts are non sustainable. That's why the 'not 1%' ends up paying a ton more a little further down the line. The very law is designed to say "we cut your taxes" now and then when it blows up they can point at someone else and say "they raised your taxes" despite all these unsustainable cuts being set to expire by them now.
There is a reason all projections a long term. Because I could abolish taxes today and be the most popular politician ever.
Lol, I actually have to agree with Cornel West on something. Fuck.
On a long enough time line the law of averages was bound to win out? The discussion that follows is more interesting that the affirmation of our beliefs, IMO. I'm sure Coates has more than a few critiques of West.
I feel like the annoying thing RE: Nazis is that they jump on any sort of self criticism within more progressive sections even though like the whole problem of like the alt-right (and plenty of politics in general) is its lack of willingness to self criticize.
On December 19 2017 17:50 mozoku wrote: Ehh, that's still not that close to what you said and the article is definitely trying to spin a narrative.
For example, it claims the PKI was openly working within the system and unarmed. And that Suharto "blamed" the coup on a PKI plot. In reality, the PKI was in power to begin with and lost power when a preemptive assassination of some alleged leaders of a suspected coup went badly wrong. That hardly rings of the "innocent victim portrayal in article. Not that that justifies anything on its own.
Here's a recent NYT article that covers the same cables, but with less innuendo.
The US involvement is limited to handing over some lists of known communists to be purged and aiding in media suppression. Not a shining star for the US, but not really an outlier by the standards of the time. I'm less sympathetic to some geopolitics-based justification for immorality in 2017, but the Cold War was a time when there were legitimate survival motives in play.
It's hardly comparable to, say, what the British Empire did--which is the impression you give when you accuse the US of supporting genocide, mass enslavement, and resource exploitation. For one, the US was primarily motivated by self-defense in the Cold War, rather than profit. Second, no enslavement actually happened. Third, Indonesia (voluntarily) welcomed US corporations because it felt the investment would simulate the economy--which it most certainly did. The US didn't show up with an army and enslave/massacre the locals for profit.
Moreover, it's much easier to say the US should have acted more in alignment with its stated principles on 2017 than it was in 1967. Given the uncertainty of the period, I can sympathize with US leaders at the time compromising on principles some to err on the side of keeping its citizens safe. I would expect Indonesians to do the same to Americans if the situation were reversed, and I wouldn't think any less of them for it.
So you're saying you would be ok with a million murdered Americans if it furthered Indonesian economic interests? Are you taking the piss?
There was no legitimate survival interest in this genocide, it was an economic coup, organized and supported by America and the UK, with the aim of stamping out an ideology that they didn't like and the secondary goal getting an infinite supply of cheap labour and cheap natural resources from a country that should be one of the richest in the world. A million people killed, with the full support of the US government. Minimize it all you want, its a disgrace.
Pretty standard US stuff, Jockmcplop. This kind of thing is always minimized by those in the thread who support the American Empire and strongly desire continued economic dominance of the US/West. Every excuse is given -- typically drawn from lines previously uttered by the US government and subsequently obediently widespread throughout the world by US media.
Every time this happens. It's happening right now in Yemen. US government supports the genocide/starvation/etc by selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, and then tells the media that they're selling weapons to Saudis so they can fight terrorism. Which isn't a blatantly pure lie, but it's definitely simplifying things in their favor. Meanwhile the media barely mentions the war crimes when talking about selling weapons, preferring to just repeat the US government statements [source].
Undoubtedly similar things happened with US A-bombs on Japan, bombs on North Korea, bombs on Cambodia (incidentally, the US is still demanding money for bombing them into oblivion). Bombs on Afghanistan, Syria, etc, etc, etc. It never ends.
Yes I would agree about Yemen and as GH said Myanmar too. Indonesia was almost certainly the blueprint to follow when it comes to modern Western supported genocide. Its important to recognize these actions for what they are and not buy in to the government's terrible feeble excuses. It shocks me that people are willing to give Western governments the benefit of the doubt in these cases and believe their obvious bullshit just out of discomfort at the truth.
Lol, I actually have to agree with Cornel West on something. Fuck.
On a long enough time line the law of averages was bound to win out? The discussion that follows is more interesting that the affirmation of our beliefs, IMO. I'm sure Coates has more than a few critiques of West.
I feel like the annoying thing RE: Nazis is that they jump on any sort of self criticism within more progressive sections even though like the whole problem of like the alt-right (and plenty of politics in general) is its lack of willingness to self criticize.
The Discourse-TM-2017 should not happen on twitter. Nazis jumping in and stealing co-opting the discussion is reason one why twitter is a garbage medium for criticism and civil debate. But is is fucking dope for rating dogs and huge jokes about the future liberals want.
Just look at that shit: Storied black intellectual writes critique of young black intellectual's world view. But fuck that story, lets find out who the Nazi agrees with. Because that is the story now.
On December 20 2017 02:44 Mohdoo wrote: I tried out those calculators, Introvert. Looks like I save around $2600-$2800 depending on which calculator I use.
The Republican tax bill that the House and Senate are set to pass as soon as Tuesday night would give most Americans a tax cut next year, according to a new analysis. However, it would by far benefit the richest Americans the most. Meanwhile, many lower- and middle-class Americans would have higher taxes a decade from now ... unless a future Congress extends the cuts.
The average household would get a tax cut of $1,610 in 2018, a bump of about 2.2 percent in that average household's income, according to a report released Monday by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan think tank that has been critical of the tax overhaul plan.
However, extremes make averages, and the benefits would be much larger for richer households. A household earning $1 million or more would get an average cut of $69,660, an income bump of 3.3 percent. Compare that to the average household earning $50,000 to $75,000, which would get a tax cut of $870, or 1.6 percent.
Source This is a great tax bill. I plan on being in that 1% come this time next year, so I am all for it. Sorry peasants. Eat cake. /s
We are making progress. We've gone from "this raises taxes on the middle class" to " the benefit is larger for the rich." As if $870 is nothing.
yes on the short term it has some upsides for people. While massively reducing the governments income. Which inevitably will lead to cuts to much needed programs and not to the actual waste.
These cuts are non sustainable. That's why the 'not 1%' ends up paying a ton more a little further down the line. The very law is designed to say "we cut your taxes" now and then when it blows up they can point at someone else and say "they raised your taxes" despite all these unsustainable cuts being set to expire by them now.
There is a reason all projections a long term. Because I could abolish taxes today and be the most popular politician ever.
I would love to cut spending. But I'm glad to see criticisms are moving closer to reality, which was what my comment was about.
On December 20 2017 02:44 Mohdoo wrote: I tried out those calculators, Introvert. Looks like I save around $2600-$2800 depending on which calculator I use.
The Republican tax bill that the House and Senate are set to pass as soon as Tuesday night would give most Americans a tax cut next year, according to a new analysis. However, it would by far benefit the richest Americans the most. Meanwhile, many lower- and middle-class Americans would have higher taxes a decade from now ... unless a future Congress extends the cuts.
The average household would get a tax cut of $1,610 in 2018, a bump of about 2.2 percent in that average household's income, according to a report released Monday by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan think tank that has been critical of the tax overhaul plan.
However, extremes make averages, and the benefits would be much larger for richer households. A household earning $1 million or more would get an average cut of $69,660, an income bump of 3.3 percent. Compare that to the average household earning $50,000 to $75,000, which would get a tax cut of $870, or 1.6 percent.
Source This is a great tax bill. I plan on being in that 1% come this time next year, so I am all for it. Sorry peasants. Eat cake. /s
We are making progress. We've gone from "this raises taxes on the middle class" to " the benefit is larger for the rich." As if $870 is nothing.
yes on the short term it has some upsides for people. While massively reducing the governments income. Which inevitably will lead to cuts to much needed programs and not to the actual waste.
These cuts are non sustainable. That's why the 'not 1%' ends up paying a ton more a little further down the line. The very law is designed to say "we cut your taxes" now and then when it blows up they can point at someone else and say "they raised your taxes" despite all these unsustainable cuts being set to expire by them now.
There is a reason all projections a long term. Because I could abolish taxes today and be the most popular politician ever.
I would love to cut spending. But I'm glad to see criticisms are moving closer to reality, which was what my comment was about.
Comments have been dealing with reality. The tax plan is an utter and complete disaster. A government can't just cut taxes to get PR points.
And thats ignoring the biggest issue for me. This burns the US healthcare system to the ground and there is nothing to replace it, which imo is the real Armageddon here.
when do we see the finalized form of the presumptively still trash tax bill? looks like a tax increase to me for the middle class, once it's properly accounted for. but using lies and deceit to give mone yto the rich is the republican plan after all.
Lol, I actually have to agree with Cornel West on something. Fuck.
“Coates rightly highlights the vicious legacy of white supremacy – past and present. He sees it everywhere and ever reminds us of its plundering effects. Unfortunately, he hardly keeps track of our fightback, and never connects this ugly legacy to the predatory capitalist practices, imperial policies (of war, occupation, detention, assassination) or the black elite’s refusal to confront poverty, patriarchy or transphobia.”
Have you read the article, are you high, or have you changed beyond recognition since last time I read your prose?
On December 20 2017 03:04 Velr wrote: That "cutting all taxes" would make you popular just shows how childish a large part of peoole is. "Mine, mine, mine!"
The key is that you cut demonize goverment while taking federal tax dollars to fund your state. It is easy to attack civil servant that can get fired for voicing their political opinions. You attack the IRS for doing its job, making sure it cannot do its job in the future. And with that, you are able to prove that goverment is a flawed system by breaking the system yourself.
On December 20 2017 03:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Lol, I actually have to agree with Cornel West on something. Fuck.
“Coates rightly highlights the vicious legacy of white supremacy – past and present. He sees it everywhere and ever reminds us of its plundering effects. Unfortunately, he hardly keeps track of our fightback, and never connects this ugly legacy to the predatory capitalist practices, imperial policies (of war, occupation, detention, assassination) or the black elite’s refusal to confront poverty, patriarchy or transphobia.”
Have you read the article, are you high, or have you changed beyond recognition since last time I read your prose?
That is an interesting critique, because Coates's most recent book does address come up against some of those issues when discussion black conservationism. But it is more of an observation that boot straps rhetoric has real appeal in black communities, even though it completely avoids addressing the boot on their head. That the boot strap rhetoric tells them to push through the "white opposition" without ever combating it.
On December 20 2017 03:01 zlefin wrote: when do we see the finalized form of the presumptively still trash tax bill? looks like a tax increase to me for the middle class, once it's properly accounted for. but using lies and deceit to give mone yto the rich is the republican plan after all.
Final version was released Friday. On phone but Google will find it.
ok, checked it out the info on it; so the bill is definitively horrible trash meant to play politics with the tax code and help the rich at the expense of others. shame on the republicans (who are shameless so it won't effect them being willingly evil). too bad we can't imprison them for their poor conduct; we really need better ways to hold politicians accountable.
On December 20 2017 03:17 zlefin wrote: ok, checked it out the info on it; so the bill is definitively horrible trash meant to play politics with the tax code and help the rich at the expense of others. shame on the republicans (who are shameless so it won't effect them being willingly evil). too bad we can't imprison them for their poor conduct; we really need better ways to hold politicians accountable.
The problem is that Americans don't like using the system we have to hold politicians accountable. It is a decent system, we just suck
On December 20 2017 03:17 zlefin wrote: ok, checked it out the info on it; so the bill is definitively horrible trash meant to play politics with the tax code and help the rich at the expense of others. shame on the republicans (who are shameless so it won't effect them being willingly evil). too bad we can't imprison them for their poor conduct; we really need better ways to hold politicians accountable.
The problem is that Americans don't like using the system we have to hold politicians accountable. It is a decent system, we just suck
no, the current system isn' tthat good at holding them accountable even if used; setting aside the inability of so many people to recognize who not to vote for.
EPT
