|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 08 2017 06:05 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 05:08 KwarK wrote:
Actual democracy is definitely preferable to the system the Founding Fathers preferred and put in place. Because of the whole letting women, slaves, and people other than rich landowners vote thing.
The whole slavery issue would have been solved exceptionally quickly had anyone taken the time to get input from the slaves themselves. But instead y'all had to fight a war over it. What does this at all have to do with what I'm talking about? I didn't the invoke the Founding Fathers to justify anything I said. I referenced them because a common response to my suggestion is that it's undemocratic or un-American, and it's historically pretty wrong. This isn't the first time you've combined blatantly terrible reading comprehension with condescension today, come on. Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 05:10 Plansix wrote:Mobs are what caused the Founding Fathers to push for the constitution in the first place. The inability to levy taxes under the articles of the confederation resulted in an inability to pay soldier’s wages. And not being paid caused them to march of Philadelphia during one of the conventions, raid the armory and surround the building. Washington and Hamilton talked down the mob of armed soldier and assured them that they would be paid. The convention then relocated to New York and the push for a federal government got some wind behind it. So the founding fathers were super afraid of mobs. This was the era of tar and feathering, after all. On December 08 2017 05:07 mozoku wrote:
I think you misunderstood me and that's probably my fault. I'm questioning whether "actual democracy" is preferable to a more Republic-leaning system and asserting that Hamilton, Madison, Adams, and Washington (despite their present-day popular representations) would have likely preferred that latter. I think you interpreting their fear of mob justice and violence as a dislike for democratic rule. Hamilton in particular grew up in the Caribbean , which was an incredibility brutal environment for a child. The treatment of slaves was beyond even the brutality of the South. Most of the founding fathers encountered a violent mob at some point in their life time. Several of them stood up to them. Hamilton himself stood up to one trying to kill his Tory employer, who escaped lynching. Hamilton, at one point, wanted a president-for-life. The Federalist party in general was skeptical of the common man and thought the educated elite should represent the populace. The Democratic-Republicans were more "pro-democracy", but Madison certainly believed that the interests of citizens were better represented by educated representatives looking out for their long-term interest than though pure democracy (e.g. Federalist Paper 10). Jefferson was the Father who had the most faith in the people.
Hamilton wrote down literally every idea that came into his head and said them out loud too. There is a great biography about him, you should read it. Again, you mistake the context of that the “appointments for life” as prescriptive. He said that while they were crafting the constitution and was basically just throwing out ideas. Because most of the founding fathers were flying by the seat of their pants, since no one had crafted a government in this fashion before. They also tried to make Washington king, but he refused.
Jefferson had the magically power of outliving all the other founding fathers and writing his own legacy. He also labeled anyone who disagreed with him as aristocracy, even though he was a rich landed boy that survived on unpaid labor. He disliked banks because he sort of didn’t understand finance that well, IMO. Because again, you don’t need to care about money when you got slaves. Jefferson is impressive, but also loved his own hype and was far more interesting once he got into office. I also am not sure he had any more faith in people than the other founding fathers. He was one of the early ones that realized he could appeal to the common man for political advantage.
|
On December 08 2017 06:05 mozoku wrote:
---------------------
All of this misses the point though. The US system has been progressively moving towards "pure democracy" little-by-little since inception. Rule by Twitter Mob + electoral strategists encourages short-termism in a way that a more Republican-leaning system does not.
Think of China's system vs the US. To oversimplify, one is stronger in long-term policymaking and agility, yet fails in accountability and allows for some truly bizarre decisions due the concentration of power, the other is basically the reverse.
It's not crazy to think there's a somewhere in between (certainly much closer to the US side imo) on the spectrum where you can have a more functional government than the current US federal government, but not dictator/single-part rule.
This framework makes no sense whatsoever. The US government being dysfunctional is related to various factors, the two most important ones being money in politics and the anti-democratic electoral system. It has nothing to do with the US being too democratic. There certainly should not be a middle road between Chinese empire and American empire. Instead both of these countries should be radically more democratic and responsive to the wishes of their citizens. The Democratic Party catering to popular demand to remove gropers is actually a good thing, it is the result of decades of transforming institutions, media, politics and public opinion by feminist activists.
Also, who cares what the founders wanted or intended. They don’t have to live with the system, our generation does. Everyone knows that if the meta is broken and something is imbalanced, you don’t listen to the designers saying “working as intended”, or “it is the fault of the players for not understanding our intent”. Instead you listen to the players and ask them what is wrong and you fix it no matter what. And if the devs don’t respond you spam the forums and throw temper tantrums until they give in.
|
On December 07 2017 13:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 12:58 Introvert wrote:On December 07 2017 12:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 12:41 Introvert wrote:
Did you guys read this thread when the bill passed the Senate? Nevermind Democrat politicians and hyperbole, this thread was acting as if the nation was ending. I don't remember that. There was a lot of talk about how it was a terrible bill that only through some repugnant methods were they able to pass what is a massive transfer of wealth to the uber rich. Maybe that it brings us that much closer to people showing up on Bezos doorstep with pitch forks, but I don't remember anyone saying anything along the lines of the nation ending. Then you missed a hilarious few hours. I mean I was there, I read the posts, they just weren't as they are being described. EDIT: The comedy of old "They're shrouding statues and that's a dangerous slippery slope to erasing history" guy (danglars) chuckling about Dems overselling is not lost on me either. People also wondered why Ben Shapiro was trash, here's an example:
An example on a jew supporting Israel? An exemple on a news jews ridiculing a situation in is favor? Who could have predicted this?
|
grumbels -> there probably is such a thing as being too democratic; it's certainly a myth that more democracy is always better. we don't know yet what the right amount and right systems are.
Read the book in my sig if you want a more thorough examination of the issue.
|
United Kingdom10021 Posts
On December 08 2017 06:41 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2017 13:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 12:58 Introvert wrote:On December 07 2017 12:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 12:41 Introvert wrote:
Did you guys read this thread when the bill passed the Senate? Nevermind Democrat politicians and hyperbole, this thread was acting as if the nation was ending. I don't remember that. There was a lot of talk about how it was a terrible bill that only through some repugnant methods were they able to pass what is a massive transfer of wealth to the uber rich. Maybe that it brings us that much closer to people showing up on Bezos doorstep with pitch forks, but I don't remember anyone saying anything along the lines of the nation ending. Then you missed a hilarious few hours. I mean I was there, I read the posts, they just weren't as they are being described. EDIT: The comedy of old "They're shrouding statues and that's a dangerous slippery slope to erasing history" guy (danglars) chuckling about Dems overselling is not lost on me either. People also wondered why Ben Shapiro was trash, here's an example: https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/25712847277 An example on a jew supporting Israel? An exemple on a news jews ridiculing a situation in is favor? Who could have predicted this?
Its possible to support Israel without being a racist, hateful piece of shit.
|
On December 08 2017 06:52 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2017 06:41 TMG26 wrote:On December 07 2017 13:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 12:58 Introvert wrote:On December 07 2017 12:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On December 07 2017 12:41 Introvert wrote:
Did you guys read this thread when the bill passed the Senate? Nevermind Democrat politicians and hyperbole, this thread was acting as if the nation was ending. I don't remember that. There was a lot of talk about how it was a terrible bill that only through some repugnant methods were they able to pass what is a massive transfer of wealth to the uber rich. Maybe that it brings us that much closer to people showing up on Bezos doorstep with pitch forks, but I don't remember anyone saying anything along the lines of the nation ending. Then you missed a hilarious few hours. I mean I was there, I read the posts, they just weren't as they are being described. EDIT: The comedy of old "They're shrouding statues and that's a dangerous slippery slope to erasing history" guy (danglars) chuckling about Dems overselling is not lost on me either. People also wondered why Ben Shapiro was trash, here's an example: https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/25712847277 An example on a jew supporting Israel? An exemple on a news jews ridiculing a situation in is favor? Who could have predicted this? Its possible to support Israel without being a racist, hateful piece of shit.
I like the part where he says they like to live in sewage, which was caused by Israel. And they cannot rebuild the damaged sewage system because Israel won’t let them have building materials. But don’t let facts get in the way of some good old fashion jingoism.
|
On December 08 2017 06:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This is what I mean when I say that Evangelicalism/Religion is preventing this country from entering the 21st century.
yeah but the frog story is funny
|
|
|
The article points out that Al should make hell for Republicans By resigning, he does paint a stark contrast between the two modern parties and ability to address sexual harassment.
|
Arizona Republican Rep. Trent Franks is expected to resign from Congress, a source with knowledge told Roll Call.
The 8th District congressman did not confirm or deny any plans to resign. He said he expected to make a statement Thursday.
“We will have a statement a little bit later, but that’s all I can tell you right now,” Franks told Roll Call. “The statement will explain.”
It is unclear exactly why Franks is stepping down, but one Arizona Republican said there had been rumors of inappropriate behavior. The Republican said the congressman had apparently been making plans to run for Senate in 2012, but abruptly canceled those plans.
“There’s been rumors swirling around him for years, at least in 2012,” the Republican said. “And if this turns out to be true, there won’t be that many people who are surprised.” www.rollcall.com
|
Best news I've heard all day as someone who lives in Arizona.
|
The man rivals Trump for his ability to dog whistle. America was great when we had slavery.
|
On December 08 2017 07:22 IgnE wrote:yeah but the frog story is funny
The frog story is pretty funny on its own, but not when used in conjunction with anti-science sentiment. Furthermore, I hope that the 2017 punchline to the frog story can be amended to "Tape all 4 legs of the frog, and it won't move because it's too busy fantasizing about having sex with tadpoles."
|
Idk what's going on, but in my neighborhood at least five women have been murdered within a week. Coincidence, most likely, but it's mostly been Men just beating/killing their gf, girl they're with.
|
|
|
On December 08 2017 08:07 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Idk what's going on, but in my neighborhood at least five women have been murdered within a week. Coincidence, most likely, but it's mostly been Men just beating/killing their gf, girl they're with.
how big is your neighborhood?
domestic violence killings like that are one of the common causes of murder.
there can be social contagion effects in general; not sure if those have been determined to happen in domestic violence specifically, but they occur in a lot of other crimes/issues.
|
I bring you the best sweet justice democracy has to offer. If he wins, it will be could truly have been god's will to have her lose her job.
|
|
|
United States44401 Posts
That's a totally reasonable response, in terms of a fantasy. Living in the White House I can totally understand a wish for privacy and seclusion. It's not like she's actually planning to live off the grid on an island.
She clarified that she didn't want to get away from Trump too.
|
I don't get it.
When your entire life turns into a public event someone learns to value private time with no one else around but the people you wanne be with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
