|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On November 19 2017 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 01:32 pmh wrote:
Trumps first year "to do" list:
-repeal Obama care:X
-tax reforms:V
-build a wall:X
-deal with isis:V
-deal with korea:X
-good for the economy:V
-withdraw from paris agreement:V
-lock her up:X
-say whatever he wants:V
-drain the swamp:X
-not getting impeached:V
Feel free to add. How did Trump "deal with ISIS"? That sounds to me like he did something and as a result of that something, ISIS is no longer a threat to the United States (or, even better, the world). Or is this one of those "He dealt with ISIS because Obama created ISIS and Trump is now president and Obama is not" things that shouldn't be taken seriously?
He dealt with ISIS because other people dealt with ISIS while he happened to be President.
|
On November 19 2017 04:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 03:45 LegalLord wrote:
I've felt for many years that the worst part of a Republican presidency would be that it would give Congressional Republicans free reign over making stupid shit happen as in the Bush era. I suppose it's a humorous sort of irony that the Congressional Republicans are now paralyzed by their own badness. Of course I know they have and will pass the occasional stupidity, and that Congressional Democrats are no angels themselves. But perhaps under the current conditions deadlock is a blessing where it happens. The tax plan or healthcare plan or any of the other major initiatives pushed as major Trump legislation would just make things significantly worse. the system is made for gridlock. people screaming the world was going to end due to Trump winning now look almost as ridiculous as the people who said Trump had no chance of winning.
This quote only makes sense from the perspective of climate change denial
|
On November 19 2017 04:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 19 2017 01:32 pmh wrote:
Trumps first year "to do" list:
-repeal Obama care:X
-tax reforms:V
-build a wall:X
-deal with isis:V
-deal with korea:X
-good for the economy:V
-withdraw from paris agreement:V
-lock her up:X
-say whatever he wants:V
-drain the swamp:X
-not getting impeached:V
Feel free to add. How did Trump "deal with ISIS"? That sounds to me like he did something and as a result of that something, ISIS is no longer a threat to the United States (or, even better, the world). Or is this one of those "He dealt with ISIS because Obama created ISIS and Trump is now president and Obama is not" things that shouldn't be taken seriously? He dealt with ISIS because other people dealt with ISIS while he happened to be President.
To be fair, he apparently made some changes to the structure of the military which reportedly had some positive effects,
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/under-trump-gains-against-isis-have-dramatically-accelerated/2017/08/04/8ad29d40-7958-11e7-8f39-eeb7d3a2d304_story.html
so credit where it is due but other than that there's nothing positive he has accomplished.
|
On November 19 2017 05:06 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 04:39 Gorsameth wrote:On November 19 2017 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 19 2017 01:32 pmh wrote:
Trumps first year "to do" list:
-repeal Obama care:X
-tax reforms:V
-build a wall:X
-deal with isis:V
-deal with korea:X
-good for the economy:V
-withdraw from paris agreement:V
-lock her up:X
-say whatever he wants:V
-drain the swamp:X
-not getting impeached:V
Feel free to add. How did Trump "deal with ISIS"? That sounds to me like he did something and as a result of that something, ISIS is no longer a threat to the United States (or, even better, the world). Or is this one of those "He dealt with ISIS because Obama created ISIS and Trump is now president and Obama is not" things that shouldn't be taken seriously? He dealt with ISIS because other people dealt with ISIS while he happened to be President. To be fair, he apparently made some changes to the structure of the military which reportedly had some positive effects, https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/under-trump-gains-against-isis-have-dramatically-accelerated/2017/08/04/8ad29d40-7958-11e7-8f39-eeb7d3a2d304_story.htmlso credit where it is due but other than that there's nothing positive he has accomplished.
Pretty sure these increased gains against ISIS are related to the massive increase in civilian casualties. You'll find a lot of variance in whether the ends justify the means in this case.
|
Plus, as I have pointed out several times in the past, it was in the US's best interest to extend the conflict and bleed the warring factions dry rather then a swift resolution that left plenty of resources for attacks against the West.
|
On November 19 2017 04:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 19 2017 01:32 pmh wrote:
Trumps first year "to do" list:
-repeal Obama care:X
-tax reforms:V
-build a wall:X
-deal with isis:V
-deal with korea:X
-good for the economy:V
-withdraw from paris agreement:V
-lock her up:X
-say whatever he wants:V
-drain the swamp:X
-not getting impeached:V
Feel free to add. How did Trump "deal with ISIS"? That sounds to me like he did something and as a result of that something, ISIS is no longer a threat to the United States (or, even better, the world). Or is this one of those "He dealt with ISIS because Obama created ISIS and Trump is now president and Obama is not" things that shouldn't be taken seriously? He dealt with ISIS because other people dealt with ISIS while he happened to be President.
He dealt with ISIS by letting the military reign free in the Middle East with the same kind of concern for citizens as when Russia drops bombs. Not to mention making deals with ISIS to let them leave with their "families" and as many weapons as they can carry.
|
On November 19 2017 04:52 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 04:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 19 2017 03:45 LegalLord wrote:
I've felt for many years that the worst part of a Republican presidency would be that it would give Congressional Republicans free reign over making stupid shit happen as in the Bush era. I suppose it's a humorous sort of irony that the Congressional Republicans are now paralyzed by their own badness. Of course I know they have and will pass the occasional stupidity, and that Congressional Democrats are no angels themselves. But perhaps under the current conditions deadlock is a blessing where it happens. The tax plan or healthcare plan or any of the other major initiatives pushed as major Trump legislation would just make things significantly worse. the system is made for gridlock. people screaming the world was going to end due to Trump winning now look almost as ridiculous as the people who said Trump had no chance of winning. This quote only makes sense from the perspective of climate change denial
And this quote only makes sense from a perspective of extreme tribalism. Trump almost literally hasn't done anything that can't be undone within a month of him leaving office (an exception for TPP, but that was dead with or without him). It's reminiscent of tribalist Republicans saying Obama's foreign policy (which, like most of Trump's presidency, I also wasn't a big a fan of) would take "decades to fix."
|
On November 19 2017 05:21 Gorsameth wrote:
Plus, as I have pointed out several times in the past, it was in the US's best interest to extend the conflict and bleed the warring factions dry rather then a swift resolution that left plenty of resources for attacks against the West.
I'm not going to go full Kissinger and advocate for continued slaughter just because I don't like Trump. There's enough idiocy in his presidency to be upset about
|
On November 19 2017 03:45 LegalLord wrote:
I've felt for many years that the worst part of a Republican presidency would be that it would give Congressional Republicans free reign over making stupid shit happen as in the Bush era. I suppose it's a humorous sort of irony that the Congressional Republicans are now paralyzed by their own badness. Of course I know they have and will pass the occasional stupidity, and that Congressional Democrats are no angels themselves. But perhaps under the current conditions deadlock is a blessing where it happens. The tax plan or healthcare plan or any of the other major initiatives pushed as major Trump legislation would just make things significantly worse.
You really missed the ball on that one. This was pretty obvious to Republicans who had been very critical of RINOs. Congressional Republicans operated under the sense that you can say whatever you want in campaign-time, because you'll never be called upon to actually implement it by the means you have available to you. Once the veto threat or philibuster threat in the Senate is removed, their promises on repealing Obamacare or much of the rest evaporated.
It also removed a lot of the Stuart Little syndrome now plaguing the left from conservatives. Trump is going to be blocked from things that require Congress because much more than Trump, Congressional representatives are going to block Congress. I'll allow you that one negative is a liberal policies I oppose may slip through, like big infrastructure spending projects and maybe Ivanka & Co's entitlement for parental leave. But then there's enough tea party members in the House and reflexive Dem opposition to delay that for a while.
|
On November 19 2017 05:23 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 04:39 Gorsameth wrote:On November 19 2017 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 19 2017 01:32 pmh wrote:
Trumps first year "to do" list:
-repeal Obama care:X
-tax reforms:V
-build a wall:X
-deal with isis:V
-deal with korea:X
-good for the economy:V
-withdraw from paris agreement:V
-lock her up:X
-say whatever he wants:V
-drain the swamp:X
-not getting impeached:V
Feel free to add. How did Trump "deal with ISIS"? That sounds to me like he did something and as a result of that something, ISIS is no longer a threat to the United States (or, even better, the world). Or is this one of those "He dealt with ISIS because Obama created ISIS and Trump is now president and Obama is not" things that shouldn't be taken seriously? He dealt with ISIS because other people dealt with ISIS while he happened to be President. He dealt with ISIS by letting the military reign free in the Middle East with the same kind of concern for citizens as when Russia drops bombs. Not to mention making deals with ISIS to let them leave with their "families" and as many weapons as they can carry. Source?
|
On November 19 2017 05:26 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 04:52 kollin wrote:On November 19 2017 04:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 19 2017 03:45 LegalLord wrote:
I've felt for many years that the worst part of a Republican presidency would be that it would give Congressional Republicans free reign over making stupid shit happen as in the Bush era. I suppose it's a humorous sort of irony that the Congressional Republicans are now paralyzed by their own badness. Of course I know they have and will pass the occasional stupidity, and that Congressional Democrats are no angels themselves. But perhaps under the current conditions deadlock is a blessing where it happens. The tax plan or healthcare plan or any of the other major initiatives pushed as major Trump legislation would just make things significantly worse. the system is made for gridlock. people screaming the world was going to end due to Trump winning now look almost as ridiculous as the people who said Trump had no chance of winning. This quote only makes sense from the perspective of climate change denial And this quote only makes sense from a perspective of extreme tribalism. Trump almost literally hasn't done anything that can't be undone within a month of him leaving office (an exception for TPP, but that was dead with or without him). It's reminiscent of tribalist Republicans saying Obama's foreign policy (which, like most of Trump's presidency, I also wasn't a big a fan of) would take "decades to fix."
It's not due to a lack of trying though. He's been pushing for the repeal of Obamacare, trying to make Mexico pay for a border wall, and trying to invoke Muslims bans all the time, and even Republicans and judges have realized that if Trump is actually allowed to execute all the plans he wants, then we're screwed. Unfortunately, some of Trump's ideas are still getting through, like dismantling the EPA and other pro-science agencies or putting at least one (and possibly three more) conservative Supreme Court Justices on the bench, which will absolutely have long-term detrimental effects.
|
I was not informed that Vermin Supreme would protesting racist, the KKK and Nazis in Boston today. The man is a treasure of New England.
|
On November 19 2017 05:26 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 04:52 kollin wrote:On November 19 2017 04:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 19 2017 03:45 LegalLord wrote:
I've felt for many years that the worst part of a Republican presidency would be that it would give Congressional Republicans free reign over making stupid shit happen as in the Bush era. I suppose it's a humorous sort of irony that the Congressional Republicans are now paralyzed by their own badness. Of course I know they have and will pass the occasional stupidity, and that Congressional Democrats are no angels themselves. But perhaps under the current conditions deadlock is a blessing where it happens. The tax plan or healthcare plan or any of the other major initiatives pushed as major Trump legislation would just make things significantly worse. the system is made for gridlock. people screaming the world was going to end due to Trump winning now look almost as ridiculous as the people who said Trump had no chance of winning. This quote only makes sense from the perspective of climate change denial And this quote only makes sense from a perspective of extreme tribalism. Trump almost literally hasn't done anything that can't be undone within a month of him leaving office (an exception for TPP, but that was dead with or without him). It's reminiscent of tribalist Republicans saying Obama's foreign policy (which, like most of Trump's presidency, I also wasn't a big a fan of) would take "decades to fix."
With the exception of TPP everything can be undone within a month? Yeah, that's right, when the next president comes in he'll just revive that 8 year old American girl that likely died in that botched Yemen raid. It's all cool. I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend, even though it's your preferred foreign policy over murdering just her father like Obama did.
On November 19 2017 05:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 05:23 a_flayer wrote:On November 19 2017 04:39 Gorsameth wrote:On November 19 2017 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 19 2017 01:32 pmh wrote:
Trumps first year "to do" list:
-repeal Obama care:X
-tax reforms:V
-build a wall:X
-deal with isis:V
-deal with korea:X
-good for the economy:V
-withdraw from paris agreement:V
-lock her up:X
-say whatever he wants:V
-drain the swamp:X
-not getting impeached:V
Feel free to add. How did Trump "deal with ISIS"? That sounds to me like he did something and as a result of that something, ISIS is no longer a threat to the United States (or, even better, the world). Or is this one of those "He dealt with ISIS because Obama created ISIS and Trump is now president and Obama is not" things that shouldn't be taken seriously? He dealt with ISIS because other people dealt with ISIS while he happened to be President. He dealt with ISIS by letting the military reign free in the Middle East with the same kind of concern for citizens as when Russia drops bombs. Not to mention making deals with ISIS to let them leave with their "families" and as many weapons as they can carry. Source?
Raqqa's Dirty Little Secret.
|
United States44355 Posts
On November 19 2017 04:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 04:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 19 2017 01:32 pmh wrote:
Trumps first year "to do" list:
-repeal Obama care:X
-tax reforms:V
-build a wall:X
-deal with isis:V
-deal with korea:X
-good for the economy:V
-withdraw from paris agreement:V
-lock her up:X
-say whatever he wants:V
-drain the swamp:X
-not getting impeached:V
Feel free to add. How did Trump "deal with ISIS"? That sounds to me like he did something and as a result of that something, ISIS is no longer a threat to the United States (or, even better, the world). Or is this one of those "He dealt with ISIS because Obama created ISIS and Trump is now president and Obama is not" things that shouldn't be taken seriously? He dealt with ISIS because other people dealt with ISIS while he happened to be President.
And also mostly before he became President. This is the same man who was insisting the push against Mosul in the Summer of 2016 was a political move to make him look bad.
|
TPP was by no means dead without Trump. Oh sure, that deal was supremely unpopular, but the reality is that a legislative consensus opposed to the popular consensus really wanted that deal and with Hillary Clinton or one of the Republican regulars (Rubio/Cruz/Jeb!) in charge, it would have passed. Nixing that deal is one of his best - and few - genuine achievements. Yes, it does seem that he did it by accident, as he opposes other multinational agreements that are either ill-advised to oppose or genuinely good (NAFTA and Paris for example), but he did something that "not the agreement I wanted for America" flip-floppers would have squeezed through against popular consensus. Trump can genuinely write that down as something to be proud of.
|
On November 19 2017 06:21 LegalLord wrote:
TPP was by no means dead without Trump. Oh sure, that deal was supremely unpopular, but the reality is that a legislative consensus opposed to the popular consensus really wanted that deal and with Hillary Clinton or one of the Republican regulars (Rubio/Cruz/Jeb!) in charge, it would have passed. Nixing that deal is one of his best - and few - genuine achievements. Yes, it does seem that he did it by accident, as he opposes other multinational agreements that are either ill-advised to oppose or genuinely good (NAFTA and Paris for example), but he did something that "not the agreement I wanted for America" flip-floppers would have squeezed through against popular consensus. Trump can genuinely write that down as something to be proud of.
The problem with calling it a sucsess is that ther was never and is still no proposed alternative to it. All its going to do as time goes on is allow china to pay hard cash for future economic gains. It was a deeply flawed treaty but to do nothing as an alternative isn't worthy of praise.
|
Let’s say thanks for Trumps generals.
|
|
|
On November 19 2017 05:26 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2017 04:52 kollin wrote:On November 19 2017 04:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 19 2017 03:45 LegalLord wrote:
I've felt for many years that the worst part of a Republican presidency would be that it would give Congressional Republicans free reign over making stupid shit happen as in the Bush era. I suppose it's a humorous sort of irony that the Congressional Republicans are now paralyzed by their own badness. Of course I know they have and will pass the occasional stupidity, and that Congressional Democrats are no angels themselves. But perhaps under the current conditions deadlock is a blessing where it happens. The tax plan or healthcare plan or any of the other major initiatives pushed as major Trump legislation would just make things significantly worse. the system is made for gridlock. people screaming the world was going to end due to Trump winning now look almost as ridiculous as the people who said Trump had no chance of winning. This quote only makes sense from the perspective of climate change denial And this quote only makes sense from a perspective of extreme tribalism. Trump almost literally hasn't done anything that can't be undone within a month of him leaving office (an exception for TPP, but that was dead with or without him). It's reminiscent of tribalist Republicans saying Obama's foreign policy (which, like most of Trump's presidency, I also wasn't a big a fan of) would take "decades to fix."
this quote only makes sense if your standard of presidency is not fucking shit up, rather than, you know, doing some good.
|
isn't that normal though?
If you're a general and you think an order is illegal you have to "push back"... right?
As much as I understand the point being that that even needs to be said in the first place but still.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
