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On September 26 2017 23:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
One is about what racist and racism mean. Racism is simply the belief that people are inherently different and have inherently different merit based on their ethnicity or skin colour. And a racist is someone who is racially biaised.
many biological differences exist between races that impact physical performance in varying weather conditions... so it depends on the job. if its an indoor, intellectual job i don't think race is a factor. if we're working outdoors doing construction on a skyscraper north of edmonton in the winter the race of the construction workers becomes a factor ( out of many factors ) in hiring decisions. if OTOH we're working on a skyscraper in a place than never falls below 90F in the middle of the summer with zero cloud cover i'd suspect a prudent developer would also factor in the race of prospective new employees.
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On September 26 2017 23:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 23:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
One is about what racist and racism mean. Racism is simply the belief that people are inherently different and have inherently different merit based on their ethnicity or skin colour. And a racist is someone who is racially biaised.
many biological differences exist between races that impact physical performance in varying weather conditions... so it depends on the job. if its an indoor, intellectual job i don't think race is a factor. if we're working outdoors doing construction on a skyscraper north of edmonton in the winter the race of the construction workers becomes a factor ( out of many factors ) in hiring decisions. if OTOH we're working on a skyscraper in a place than never falls below 90F in the middle of the summer with zero cloud cover i'd suspect a prudent developer would also factor in the race of prospective new employees.
I think we all agree that some ethnicity are in average shorter, or taller, or more resistant to heat. But we are not talking about that. Trustworthiness, behaviour, intellectual abilities and so on are really what it's about. Basically your merit as a human being really.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 26 2017 22:14 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 11:18 xDaunt wrote:
See, if you adopt that definition of "white supremacy," then you might as well just get back on the boat and go back to Africa. There's no room for hope. You're just a mirror image of the Alt Right, recognizing as they do that racial strife is unavoidable. this continues to be nonsense. We're not advocating for black supremacy, we're advocating equality. We can recognize that racial strife is unavoidable in a world plagued by inequality, but then rather than accept inequality and accept racial strife, we seek to combat inequality so that racial strife loses its foundation.
It might be wise to learn to pick your (as the left-leaning folk of this view) battles. If you want to lose the support of the somewhat less involved, but nevertheless sympathetic, you have found a means that is hard to beat. Cry racist and white supremacist and fascist and anything else at anything that moves, call people Nazi/KKK/whatever sympathizers at the first sign of an opinion outside of your established norm, and you're well on your way to losing those "moderates" you say ain't doing enough. Top it off by being overly sympathetic to Antifa, whitewashing the Black Panthers with the same arguments I've heard from people trying to justify the Nazis, and supporting or trying to downplay the "pigs in a blanket" elements of BLM, and yeah, we have a problem. Race is GH's pet issue but this culture of shame crap is a wider leftist project.
And I say this all as someone who, on the issues of policy, almost always agrees with the left. But this cultural crap masquerading as being about making life better needs to die. It does more harm than good and is largely responsible for endless semantic footsies the world over.
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On September 26 2017 23:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 23:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On September 26 2017 23:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
One is about what racist and racism mean. Racism is simply the belief that people are inherently different and have inherently different merit based on their ethnicity or skin colour. And a racist is someone who is racially biaised.
many biological differences exist between races that impact physical performance in varying weather conditions... so it depends on the job. if its an indoor, intellectual job i don't think race is a factor. if we're working outdoors doing construction on a skyscraper north of edmonton in the winter the race of the construction workers becomes a factor ( out of many factors ) in hiring decisions. if OTOH we're working on a skyscraper in a place than never falls below 90F in the middle of the summer with zero cloud cover i'd suspect a prudent developer would also factor in the race of prospective new employees. I think we all agree that some ethnicity are in average shorter, or taller, or more resistant to heat. But we are not talking about that. Trustworthiness, behaviour, intellectual abilities and so on are really what it's about. Basically your merit as a human being really.
yep, however, over the years i've made many generalizations about race based on my experience.
My parents split up when i was young and my dad owned a house very close to the worst part of the city. i used to like to go to the worst part of the city to "watch the action". i found the immigrants there were generally "upwardly mobile" and working their way from "nothing" to "middle class". i found the white people to be drug addicts scamming the welfare state for every nickel they could get so they could buy more drugs. generally speaking these white people started their lives as "middle class" and were entering a downward spiral to "nothing".
in my time there ( worst part of the city ).. i was frequently challenged to fight by lots of white guys and native canadian indians. i was almost never physically challenged by any non-white immigrant in that neighbourhood.
i should be able to feel comfortable discussing this kind of stuff. unfortunately, in this hyper vigilante "everything is racism" environment its more difficult. this was an easy convo to have because it paints white people in a negative light. what if we change the word "white" in my story to some other colour?
in conclusion: i'd just like to see Trump create kick ass economic growth like Reagan did in the 80s or like Clinton did in the 90s so that everyone can have many opportunities to improve their lives.
Trump needs to close his twitter account and take the time he saves from tweeting and put that time into improving the economy.
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while it would be nice to see, trump clearly doesn't know what he's doing so he's not in a position to create such growth; furthermore, presidents are given far too mcuh credit/blame for the economy, while they can affect it a little, they really can't affect it a lot, and most of the shifts in it are outside government control (in particular, it's hard to get it grow, though poor governance can damage it much more readily)
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On September 26 2017 14:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 14:48 LegalLord wrote:On September 26 2017 14:38 Wegandi wrote:
I've gotten my parents to agree that policing is out of control and needs reform and that demilitarization and the 4th Amendment is important, but they cannot stand the kneeling/flag stuff and BLM/all white people are racist non-sense. (There are a million police abuse / killing videos of unarmed white people to show to white people. They aren't as publicized as when a black person is killed, but trust me there are a ton of them. Show this stuff to white people and they'll be a lot more open to police reforms. POLICE REFORMS is the goal right?) Stories like this multiplied across a wide swath of the population should perhaps be an indication that it's probably better to actually try to reform things than dick around with trying to prove everyone isnt* a racist. The will is there but the protesters haven't caught up to it. Now you're getting it. That's what people like you, wegandi, xdaunt, danglars, etc... are supposed to be doing.
Sounds a lot like the white man's burden repurposed. Black activists like GH tell whites they're supposed to be all about police reform, while berating them that they're white supremacists and racists and privileged. I'd like to join others in solving the kind of issues like aggressive police officers that know a jury will let em off or overuse of SWAT teams. But the debate, if you can call it that, among the left-wing is all about blaming the problems on whitey. The oppressors have to confess their oppression in this idiotic public ceremony and agree to having been born racist/unconsciously furthering the KKK's agenda.
On September 26 2017 15:11 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 14:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Are you arguing with my argument or a manifestation of several viewpoints to your left? Yeah, the problem is that there's no way to give a proper answer to that since it's completely and utterly unclear what you stand for. You do seem to think Coates has some deep point, so I think you fit nicely into what it is I'm arguing against. And you are one of the most prominent "everybody admit you're racists" advocates around here. Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 14:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Do you agree that the protesters should stop trying to prove everyone isn't racist and focus on reforming things? No, because it's not their fight. Sure, if in the pursuit of actual reform they stand as a steadfast opposition to any form of change that's one thing. But noting how the pro-call-everything-racism crowd is really a joke that needs to be dismissed without consideration, that's something they can go on and respond to. Because it's a real stretch to say they the anti-call-everything-racist crowd started it.
Coates is a timely example in this debate. If you can agree with that sort of venom and propose it has a deep point, you'll be laughed at and dismissed. He's just too obviously a race-baiting fool that no editor dared to touch. It's like self-identifying that you're an extremist on this issue, then trying to appear reasonable. Worth a re-read if you're ready to be convinced that Trump's ideology is white supremacy and whiteness is at the very core of his power.
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On September 27 2017 00:00 zlefin wrote:
trump clearly doesn't know what he's doing so he's not in a position to create such growth;
On September 27 2017 00:00 zlefin wrote:
presidents are given far too mcuh credit/blame for the economy,
pick 1 position or the other.
looks like you have just created a position for yourself that is anti-trump no matter what the economy does.
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Lots of people have to realize that most of the white people in the country had nothing to do with the slaving of blacks.
They didn't choose to be born as "whites".
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United States42598 Posts
The xDaunt "is an act racist?" flow chart goes as follows.
1. Does the person who did the act own a white hood?
If no: Not racist.
If yes:
2. Was the person who did the act wearing their white hood when the act was committed?
If no: There's really no way of knowing what was in their heart.
If yes: Probably racist, but we can't really know.
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On September 26 2017 22:14 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 11:18 xDaunt wrote:
See, if you adopt that definition of "white supremacy," then you might as well just get back on the boat and go back to Africa. There's no room for hope. You're just a mirror image of the Alt Right, recognizing as they do that racial strife is unavoidable. this continues to be nonsense. We're not advocating for black supremacy, we're advocating equality. We can recognize that racial strife is unavoidable in a world plagued by inequality, but then rather than accept inequality and accept racial strife, we seek to combat inequality so that racial strife loses its foundation.
I'm not saying that you are advocating for black supremacy. What I am saying is that you are adopting a world view that makes some semblance of racial harmony impossible and that self-sabotages your purported goal of racial equality.
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United States42598 Posts
On September 27 2017 00:14 RealityIsKing wrote:
Lots of people have to realize that most of the white people in the country had nothing to do with the slaving of blacks.
They didn't choose to be born as "whites".
The football players don't actually think that all white people were active participants in the transatlantic slave trade. You're not understanding what the issue under discussion is. You should be embarrassed to have such a weak understanding of a subject that you're trying to be involved in.
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On September 27 2017 00:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:00 zlefin wrote:
trump clearly doesn't know what he's doing so he's not in a position to create such growth;
Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:00 zlefin wrote:
presidents are given far too mcuh credit/blame for the economy,
pick 1 position or the other. looks like you have just created a position for yourself that is anti-trump no matter what the economy does.
then you didn't read carefully. please read more carefully next time.
both are true, and have been proven true fro a long time now. that stands irrespective of the point on anti-trumpism.
you can't create growth if you have no policy understanding (unless you get really lucky on picking policies). growth may occur anyways, since it's not affected that much by the presidency.
It's much easier to tank an economy through bad policy than it is to make one flourish through good policy.
far too much credit/blame doesn't mean they don't have any effects at all; I explicitly noted they do have an effect, but it's quite mild usually (except for the occasional severe negative caused by bad policy, e.g. venezuela). It's simply wrong to say that reagan or clinton caused the economic growth during their presidencies.
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United States42598 Posts
On September 27 2017 00:15 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 22:14 Liquid`Drone wrote:On September 26 2017 11:18 xDaunt wrote:
See, if you adopt that definition of "white supremacy," then you might as well just get back on the boat and go back to Africa. There's no room for hope. You're just a mirror image of the Alt Right, recognizing as they do that racial strife is unavoidable. this continues to be nonsense. We're not advocating for black supremacy, we're advocating equality. We can recognize that racial strife is unavoidable in a world plagued by inequality, but then rather than accept inequality and accept racial strife, we seek to combat inequality so that racial strife loses its foundation. I'm not saying that you are advocating for black supremacy. What I am saying is that you are adopting a world view that makes some semblance of racial harmony impossible and that self-sabotages your purported goal of racial equality.
If you accept that African Americans do not have full equality in the United States, and there is a library of evidence to support that conclusion, then the argument for preservation of the "harmonious" status quo is an argument for perpetuating that inequality. I do not imagine that you would accept that in their position. Especially when the only reason there is disunity on the issue is because of actual racists who refuse to see African Americans as equals.
Consider the two groups, those who seek equality and those who seek to perpetuate inequality. You argue that the refusal of the first group to silently fall in line behind the second is divisive and creates racial strife. That argument lacks basis, one could just as easily say that the refusal of the second group to silently fall in line behind the first is divisive. There is no reason why there could not be a patriotic, collective, unified movement that transcends racial lines and hopes to realize a closer union that is more in line with the promise of the American constitution.
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On September 27 2017 00:15 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:14 RealityIsKing wrote:
Lots of people have to realize that most of the white people in the country had nothing to do with the slaving of blacks.
They didn't choose to be born as "whites". The football players don't actually think that all white people were active participants in the transatlantic slave trade. You're not understanding what the issue under discussion is. You should be embarrassed to have such a weak understanding of a subject that you're trying to be involved in.
According to you, yeah.
But according to facts, people these days didn't choose to be born as "white". I know it, you know it, and pretty much everybody knows it.
Plus the slaves were freed too.
Unless you have a time machine to go back and force all the British/French/Spanish people/empire that owned slave to pay reparation, there is no clear answer to this so-called "white supremacy" problem. Or are you willing to go back in ancestry.com to look for all the descendant of slave owners/slaves (plenty of blacks that aren't descendant of slaves just letting you know) and make descendant of slave owners pay reparation to descendant slaves?
By the way, I'm not ashamed. I am a realist, not an ideologue. And according to reality, you can't go around shaming people to spread your message.
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United States42598 Posts
On September 27 2017 00:24 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:15 KwarK wrote:On September 27 2017 00:14 RealityIsKing wrote:
Lots of people have to realize that most of the white people in the country had nothing to do with the slaving of blacks.
They didn't choose to be born as "whites". The football players don't actually think that all white people were active participants in the transatlantic slave trade. You're not understanding what the issue under discussion is. You should be embarrassed to have such a weak understanding of a subject that you're trying to be involved in. According to you, yeah. But according to facts, people these days didn't choose to be born as "white". I know it, you know it, and pretty much everybody knows it. Plus the slaves were freed too. Unless you have a time machine to go back and force all the British/French/Spanish people/empire that owned slave to pay reparation, there is no clear answer to this so-called "white supremacy" problem. Or are you willing to go back in ancestry.com to look for all the descendant of slave owners/slaves (plenty of blacks that aren't descendant of slaves just letting you know) and make descendant of slave owners pay reparation to descendant slaves? By the way, I'm not ashamed. I am a realist, not an ideologue. And according to reality, you can't go around shaming people to spread your message.
The solution to the white supremacy problem is really simple.
Treat black people like you treat white people.
That's literally it.
You're still not understanding the issue at all. You don't need a time machine to treat African Americans with respect.
And again, literally nobody is saying that white people chose to be born white and should be shamed for it. That's an argument you made up in order to attack. Don't do that.
I'm going to try and make this simple for you. If you do not understand what the other side believes then you cannot accurately respond to it. You do not understand what the other side believes. Why not open by asking? Instead of charging in here with "if the left knew that slavery was a long time ago they wouldn't hate white people", why not ask "do you know that people alive today were too young to be involved in the slave trade?" Instead of "white people didn't choose to be born white!" why not wait for someone to say that they did, so that you can refute it?
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Even after last night’s discussion, there continues to be this argument against shaming and verbally assaulting white people with racism. That argument has never been made by either GH, myself or any of the other left leaning people in this thread. Yet it still dominates the discussion.
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On September 27 2017 00:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:24 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 27 2017 00:15 KwarK wrote:On September 27 2017 00:14 RealityIsKing wrote:
Lots of people have to realize that most of the white people in the country had nothing to do with the slaving of blacks.
They didn't choose to be born as "whites". The football players don't actually think that all white people were active participants in the transatlantic slave trade. You're not understanding what the issue under discussion is. You should be embarrassed to have such a weak understanding of a subject that you're trying to be involved in. According to you, yeah. But according to facts, people these days didn't choose to be born as "white". I know it, you know it, and pretty much everybody knows it. Plus the slaves were freed too. Unless you have a time machine to go back and force all the British/French/Spanish people/empire that owned slave to pay reparation, there is no clear answer to this so-called "white supremacy" problem. Or are you willing to go back in ancestry.com to look for all the descendant of slave owners/slaves (plenty of blacks that aren't descendant of slaves just letting you know) and make descendant of slave owners pay reparation to descendant slaves? By the way, I'm not ashamed. I am a realist, not an ideologue. And according to reality, you can't go around shaming people to spread your message. The solution to the white supremacy problem is really simple. Treat black people like you treat white people. That's literally it. You're still not understanding the issue at all. You don't need a time machine to treat African Americans with respect. And again, literally nobody is saying that white people chose to be born white and should be shamed for it. That's an argument you made up in order to attack. Don't do that.
Then black people(and others allies of black rights) should treat white people/others with respect too instead of using insulting, shaming tactics in violent manners.
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On September 27 2017 00:33 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:27 KwarK wrote:On September 27 2017 00:24 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 27 2017 00:15 KwarK wrote:On September 27 2017 00:14 RealityIsKing wrote:
Lots of people have to realize that most of the white people in the country had nothing to do with the slaving of blacks.
They didn't choose to be born as "whites". The football players don't actually think that all white people were active participants in the transatlantic slave trade. You're not understanding what the issue under discussion is. You should be embarrassed to have such a weak understanding of a subject that you're trying to be involved in. According to you, yeah. But according to facts, people these days didn't choose to be born as "white". I know it, you know it, and pretty much everybody knows it. Plus the slaves were freed too. Unless you have a time machine to go back and force all the British/French/Spanish people/empire that owned slave to pay reparation, there is no clear answer to this so-called "white supremacy" problem. Or are you willing to go back in ancestry.com to look for all the descendant of slave owners/slaves (plenty of blacks that aren't descendant of slaves just letting you know) and make descendant of slave owners pay reparation to descendant slaves? By the way, I'm not ashamed. I am a realist, not an ideologue. And according to reality, you can't go around shaming people to spread your message. The solution to the white supremacy problem is really simple. Treat black people like you treat white people. That's literally it. You're still not understanding the issue at all. You don't need a time machine to treat African Americans with respect. And again, literally nobody is saying that white people chose to be born white and should be shamed for it. That's an argument you made up in order to attack. Don't do that. Then black people(and others allies of black rights) should treat white people/others with respect too instead of using insulting, shaming tactics in violent manners.
alternatively, maybe everyone regardless of race.
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United States42598 Posts
On September 27 2017 00:33 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:27 KwarK wrote:On September 27 2017 00:24 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 27 2017 00:15 KwarK wrote:On September 27 2017 00:14 RealityIsKing wrote:
Lots of people have to realize that most of the white people in the country had nothing to do with the slaving of blacks.
They didn't choose to be born as "whites". The football players don't actually think that all white people were active participants in the transatlantic slave trade. You're not understanding what the issue under discussion is. You should be embarrassed to have such a weak understanding of a subject that you're trying to be involved in. According to you, yeah. But according to facts, people these days didn't choose to be born as "white". I know it, you know it, and pretty much everybody knows it. Plus the slaves were freed too. Unless you have a time machine to go back and force all the British/French/Spanish people/empire that owned slave to pay reparation, there is no clear answer to this so-called "white supremacy" problem. Or are you willing to go back in ancestry.com to look for all the descendant of slave owners/slaves (plenty of blacks that aren't descendant of slaves just letting you know) and make descendant of slave owners pay reparation to descendant slaves? By the way, I'm not ashamed. I am a realist, not an ideologue. And according to reality, you can't go around shaming people to spread your message. The solution to the white supremacy problem is really simple. Treat black people like you treat white people. That's literally it. You're still not understanding the issue at all. You don't need a time machine to treat African Americans with respect. And again, literally nobody is saying that white people chose to be born white and should be shamed for it. That's an argument you made up in order to attack. Don't do that. Then black people(and others allies of black rights) should treat white people/others with respect too instead of using insulting, shaming tactics in violent manners.
Again, you're still not understanding.
Nobody here is saying that they shouldn't.
You're arguing against an enemy of your own creation.
You still do not understand. You need to stop arguing with the wall and start trying to listen.
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On September 27 2017 00:33 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:27 KwarK wrote:On September 27 2017 00:24 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 27 2017 00:15 KwarK wrote:On September 27 2017 00:14 RealityIsKing wrote:
Lots of people have to realize that most of the white people in the country had nothing to do with the slaving of blacks.
They didn't choose to be born as "whites". The football players don't actually think that all white people were active participants in the transatlantic slave trade. You're not understanding what the issue under discussion is. You should be embarrassed to have such a weak understanding of a subject that you're trying to be involved in. According to you, yeah. But according to facts, people these days didn't choose to be born as "white". I know it, you know it, and pretty much everybody knows it. Plus the slaves were freed too. Unless you have a time machine to go back and force all the British/French/Spanish people/empire that owned slave to pay reparation, there is no clear answer to this so-called "white supremacy" problem. Or are you willing to go back in ancestry.com to look for all the descendant of slave owners/slaves (plenty of blacks that aren't descendant of slaves just letting you know) and make descendant of slave owners pay reparation to descendant slaves? By the way, I'm not ashamed. I am a realist, not an ideologue. And according to reality, you can't go around shaming people to spread your message. The solution to the white supremacy problem is really simple. Treat black people like you treat white people. That's literally it. You're still not understanding the issue at all. You don't need a time machine to treat African Americans with respect. And again, literally nobody is saying that white people chose to be born white and should be shamed for it. That's an argument you made up in order to attack. Don't do that. Then black people(and others allies of black rights) should treat white people/others with respect too instead of using insulting, shaming tactics in violent manners.
So you believe America should not exist?
Because the colonies sure didn't sit down and accept their fate when they asked Britain for independence but got a negative reply.
What a weird position to hold.
What should the black people do when the whites refuse to treat them equally?
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