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On June 03 2017 05:29 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 05:23 Artisreal wrote:
cars are parked 95% of the time in Germany.
So in day to day private life there is zero need for capable accumulators and fast recharge speeds.
Only for long distance travel that people want to use their car for the need for both arises
For the intra-city distances they most likely wouldn't "need" a permanent car anyway. That's definitely not how it works in the US outside of a few key dense cities. I drive at least 60 km almost every day.
Then don't buy the car. Simple.
With the way my family uses cars, we'd easily be able to get by with the Model 3 once released (Vancouver). There's available charging at work, every shopping mall around, and at street parking throughout the city.
In a day, a car will get driven to work (10km), back home (10km), maybe groceries etc which can be picked up nearby (4km round trip), and maybe a trip to some recreational place and back (say 10km round trip).
My current car gets around 12000 km driven a year, average of ~35km/day. If a model 3 base model can go 215 (340km) miles, I can charge once a week.
Long trips:
Vancouver - Whistler (140km each way) - Can easily make this, and I know there's tons of places to charge upon arriving. Even if I didn't I'd be able to get there and back with some room to spare (Most stuff is within walking distance up there, so I usually just park somewhere for a weekend).
I recently spent a weekend away in Victoria (Ferry terminal 30km, 30km to airbnb after ferry, ~40km of driving over a weekend, 60km back - total of 160km.
That's easily doable by a long range electric car.
The only trip I can't do on a single charge is a trip from Vancouver to Kamloops (~350km)- which I'd either have to charge in the middle for or (more likely) use a different car/carpool with someone who has a gas car.
My family's in the position where we have multiple cars. I don't know if it'd be good as the only car, but as a daily driver, it definitely makes sense if the economics/ergonomics of the car are anywhere near an equivalent gas car.
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If there was an economy tesla with the exact same range, I would own one as my commuting car. It would be perfect for the traffic I deal with.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Yeah, in some cases an electric could make sense. But with current circumstances their main functionality is for rich people to look fashionable and for others to pay significantly more than an equivalent internal combustion engine is worth.
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[obligatory comment about external costs]
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 03 2017 06:03 Artisreal wrote:
[obligatory comment about external costs]
Knock yourself out. It still isn't even close.
The margin could easily be spent on making America great again.
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I never meant to say it would even out. It's just something that in a lot of discussions is disregarded because it's hard to grasp.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 03 2017 06:06 Artisreal wrote:
I never meant to say it would even out. It's just something that in a lot of discussions is disregarded because it's hard to grasp.
If and when, externality-adjusted, electrics become better, they can have their popularity. Until then, they are a fashion statement rather than a transport vehicle for a reason.
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It would be much better if tesla started with industry vehicles like semi trailers and bulldozers and whatnot before getting into the Comercial car market once the tech matures.
It's more of a rich persons urban commuter car for someone who can afford more then one car pet person. More established car companies will probably make the real electric consumer cars and tesla will be regulated to niche sport car status.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
At the rate they're hemorrhaging money sustained only by market exuberance, my money is on them being museum status. Something that we can all tell our grandchildren happened in our lifetime and actually was thought to be the next big thing despite ultimately being a flop.
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Without tesla the oldschool manufacturers would still blabber about electric cars not being feasible.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
They are yet to be proven wrong.
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On June 03 2017 06:22 Artisreal wrote:
Without tesla the oldschool manufacturers would still blabber about electric cars not being feasible.
Exactly. And the car industry would never have dumped money into cars like the Volt.
On June 03 2017 06:24 LegalLord wrote:
They are yet to be proven wrong.
We could say the same thing about every innovation that requires government infrastructure.
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All oldschool manufacturers have been working on both electric and automated cars before Tesla was a thing. I have to agree with LL here, let's be real for a second Tesla ships a few ten thousand cars per quarter, VW sells 10 million cars a year, and scaling heavy industry is not like scaling Snapchat. When Tesla delivers middle-class cars in huge quantities we can celebrate them.
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I’m not going to stay the Musk did a perfect job. There are plenty of flaws with the Tesla. But the electric car has been a thing that was actively attacked by the auto industry in the past. Of course there are flaws and I would love to see the car be scaled to an economy version.
There are also problems selling the Tesla in a lot of states with laws protecting car dealers, including my own. Those laws exist with good reason, but they are being used to limit Tesla’s entrance into a lot of markets.
http://law.justia.com/cases/massachusetts/supreme-court/2014/sjc-11545.html
The case between them went to the Supreme court and ruled in Tesla’s favor.
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United States42632 Posts
The "good reason" car dealership monopoly laws exist is because one of Reagan's best friends was a car dealership owner and asked Reagan to do him a favour. Literally true.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
So refresh my memory. Have electric cars become feasible yet? Have those old industry naysayers been proven wrong yet? Has Tesla turned that profit tap on, or have they just blabbered on and on about that mythical economy of scale that will finally make everything right based on ideas rightly decried as impractical?
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On June 03 2017 06:37 LegalLord wrote:
So refresh my memory. Have electric cars become feasible yet? Have those old industry naysayers been proven wrong yet? Has Tesla turned that profit tap on, or have they just blabbered on and on about that mythical economy of scale that will finally make everything right based on ideas rightly decried as impractical?
It is impossible to put a man on the Moon or or build a wireless phone, so we shouldn't even try.
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United States42632 Posts
They're absolutely feasible. If you were to convince me to buy a new car a leaf would be a very strong contender.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 03 2017 06:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 06:37 LegalLord wrote:
So refresh my memory. Have electric cars become feasible yet? Have those old industry naysayers been proven wrong yet? Has Tesla turned that profit tap on, or have they just blabbered on and on about that mythical economy of scale that will finally make everything right based on ideas rightly decried as impractical? It is impossible to put a man on the Moon or or build a wireless phone, so we shouldn't even try.
Yeah, yeah. They said it about the Wright brothers, they said it about going to the moon, they said it about solar roadways. Those fucking naysayers are always wrong.
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how are hybrid cars coming along? I hvaen't heard in awhile how they're doing.
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