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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
November 02 2016 15:15 GMT
#117381
Why are we concerned about Trump's ties to Russia but not Clinton's ties to Russia?
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13926 Posts
November 02 2016 15:15 GMT
#117382
On November 03 2016 00:10 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2016 00:07 Sermokala wrote:
On November 03 2016 00:00 KwarK wrote:
On November 02 2016 23:58 Sermokala wrote:
I mean we know that Russia is the one supplying wikileaks but I think its a conspiracy theory to say that they're doing it with the intent to get trump elected.

You think they're accidentally supplying wikileaks with anti-Hillary material?

Yeah but I don't see how its trying to get trump elected. Weakening Hillary for the sake of weakening hillary or just muddling in the election to weaken the country but people are arguing that there is real coordination between Russia and trump to get him elected. Thats where it goes from conspiracy to conspiracy theory for me.

You genuinely don't see a connection between trying to stop Hillary getting elected and trying to help Trump get elected? I'm sorry if I'm pushing you too hard on this, I'm just trying to work out where I'm losing you in the chain of logic.

I'm saying I don't see how there is a genuine conspiracy between Trump and russia to get Trump elected. Russia is useing wikileaks to effect the election I understand but upgrading petty meddling into a full blown conspiracy is a step I'm seeing people taking just beacuse its trump.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6284 Posts
November 02 2016 15:17 GMT
#117383
On November 03 2016 00:10 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2016 00:07 Sermokala wrote:
On November 03 2016 00:00 KwarK wrote:
On November 02 2016 23:58 Sermokala wrote:
I mean we know that Russia is the one supplying wikileaks but I think its a conspiracy theory to say that they're doing it with the intent to get trump elected.

You think they're accidentally supplying wikileaks with anti-Hillary material?

Yeah but I don't see how its trying to get trump elected. Weakening Hillary for the sake of weakening hillary or just muddling in the election to weaken the country but people are arguing that there is real coordination between Russia and trump to get him elected. Thats where it goes from conspiracy to conspiracy theory for me.

the conspiracy theory pejorative generally applies to stuff tha'ts super wacko and out there. while I agree there are many plausible and more likely alternative explanations; them wanting trump in power isn't so out there as to be conspiracy theory territory.

also, there doesn't need to be coordination for russia to be trying to get trump elected.

But saying Russia is behind the hacks means admitting the Russians have everything they would need to turn Clinton into a puppet. The juiciest stuff is just stored away somewhere so they will always have power over her. Pushing Trump along with little leaks makes sense if they already have Clinton in their pocket, so Trump would be thankful and friendly if Clinton fucks it up. Its win-win if Russia is behind the leaks.
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
November 02 2016 15:17 GMT
#117384
On November 03 2016 00:15 Buckyman wrote:
Why are we concerned about Drumpf's ties to Russia but not Clinton's ties to Russia?


Because Clinton's position on Russia is quite different form Trumps on Russia,

Again we can go the alternative reality route where both are liars so really Clinton says Russia = bad means she will be Russia's Puppet. And the public Putin admirer is just a snake in the grass waiting to pounce the second Putin lets his guard down.

Something something 4D chess. Trump is a genius.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42663 Posts
November 02 2016 15:17 GMT
#117385
On November 03 2016 00:15 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2016 00:10 KwarK wrote:
On November 03 2016 00:07 Sermokala wrote:
On November 03 2016 00:00 KwarK wrote:
On November 02 2016 23:58 Sermokala wrote:
I mean we know that Russia is the one supplying wikileaks but I think its a conspiracy theory to say that they're doing it with the intent to get trump elected.

You think they're accidentally supplying wikileaks with anti-Hillary material?

Yeah but I don't see how its trying to get trump elected. Weakening Hillary for the sake of weakening hillary or just muddling in the election to weaken the country but people are arguing that there is real coordination between Russia and trump to get him elected. Thats where it goes from conspiracy to conspiracy theory for me.

You genuinely don't see a connection between trying to stop Hillary getting elected and trying to help Trump get elected? I'm sorry if I'm pushing you too hard on this, I'm just trying to work out where I'm losing you in the chain of logic.

I'm saying I don't see how there is a genuine conspiracy between Trump and russia to get Trump elected. Russia is useing wikileaks to effect the election I understand but upgrading petty meddling into a full blown conspiracy is a step I'm seeing people taking just beacuse its trump.

So you're happy with
1) Russia is trying to get Trump elected
and
2) Trump has offered to end sanctions and recognize Crimea before negotiations even start

You're just unhappy with the link between the two?

If we might quickly return to the original contention with zeo which was that Putin desperately wants a Clinton victory so he can blackmail her, are you happy with the "but Putin is openly doing everything he can to get Trump elected" objection? If so we're on the same page.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-02 15:19:57
November 02 2016 15:18 GMT
#117386
On November 03 2016 00:15 Buckyman wrote:
Why are we concerned about Trump's ties to Russia but not Clinton's ties to Russia?

we can read her extensive writing and look at policy speeches to understand her foreign policy positions. also wiki-hillary talks about it a lot.

her administration would be run by foreign policy professionals.


btw, for the fearmongers about war here, opposition to putin does not mean military escalation or war with russia. it may mean beefing up some defensive positions so that the cost would be prohibitive for russia to try anything to upset the situation, but that is a defensive position directly in response to how putin has behaved and various linestepping along the way.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
November 02 2016 15:18 GMT
#117387
On November 03 2016 00:15 Buckyman wrote:
Why are we concerned about Trump's ties to Russia but not Clinton's ties to Russia?

Has Clinton burned every bank in the US so hard that none of them will lend to her and she had to go outside the country to investment, specifically to Russia? Have they invested directly into the her family business that is not a charity? Because that is the relationship between Trump and Russia. And he won’t be putting his business in a blind trust, it will be run by his children. So basically he will be running it while President.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-02 15:21:00
November 02 2016 15:20 GMT
#117388
On November 02 2016 23:56 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2016 23:52 Sermokala wrote:
I think Russia wanting to get trump elected by hacking hillaries emails and giving them to wikileaks is a conspiracy theory.

Is it if the US intelligence agencies have said they believe it is happening? I think that moves it out of “things believed by people wearing tinfoil hats.”


The conspiracy part comes from thinking Donald has an active role in this, he isn't responsible for Russia's hacks anymore than some crazy white nationalist that supports him. Furthermore we don't know what Russia's motivations are. Just because he says "would it be so bad if we got along with Russia" doesn't mean he's leaking secrets to them.
Question.?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42663 Posts
November 02 2016 15:21 GMT
#117389
On November 03 2016 00:20 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2016 23:56 Plansix wrote:
On November 02 2016 23:52 Sermokala wrote:
I think Russia wanting to get trump elected by hacking hillaries emails and giving them to wikileaks is a conspiracy theory.

Is it if the US intelligence agencies have said they believe it is happening? I think that moves it out of “things believed by people wearing tinfoil hats.”


The conspiracy part comes from thinking Donald has an active role in this, he isn't responsible for Russia's hacks anymore than some crazy white nationalist that supports him. Furthermore we don't know what Russia's motivations are. Just because he says "would it be so bad if we got along with Russia" doesn't mean he's leaking s crest to them.

We started on this because zeo claimed that Putin wanted Clinton to win. The point of raising the Russia backed hacking and selective attacks on Clinton was to refute that.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
November 02 2016 15:23 GMT
#117390
On November 03 2016 00:21 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2016 00:20 biology]major wrote:
On November 02 2016 23:56 Plansix wrote:
On November 02 2016 23:52 Sermokala wrote:
I think Russia wanting to get trump elected by hacking hillaries emails and giving them to wikileaks is a conspiracy theory.

Is it if the US intelligence agencies have said they believe it is happening? I think that moves it out of “things believed by people wearing tinfoil hats.”


The conspiracy part comes from thinking Donald has an active role in this, he isn't responsible for Russia's hacks anymore than some crazy white nationalist that supports him. Furthermore we don't know what Russia's motivations are. Just because he says "would it be so bad if we got along with Russia" doesn't mean he's leaking s crest to them.

We started on this because zeo claimed that Putin wanted Clinton to win. The point of raising the Russia backed hacking and selective attacks on Clinton was to refute that.


Ah okay, carry on
Question.?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
November 02 2016 15:23 GMT
#117391
On November 03 2016 00:20 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2016 23:56 Plansix wrote:
On November 02 2016 23:52 Sermokala wrote:
I think Russia wanting to get trump elected by hacking hillaries emails and giving them to wikileaks is a conspiracy theory.

Is it if the US intelligence agencies have said they believe it is happening? I think that moves it out of “things believed by people wearing tinfoil hats.”


The conspiracy part comes from thinking Donald has an active role in this, he isn't responsible for Russia's hacks anymore than some crazy white nationalist that supports him. Furthermore we don't know what Russia's motivations are. Just because he says "would it be so bad if we got along with Russia" doesn't mean he's leaking secrets to them.

We also don’t know what is in this new batch of Clinton emails or if it is anything worth while, yet that does not stop people from speculating.

If you are going to speculate on emailgate, then you have to accept the speculation on Trump’s connections to Russia, which are substantial.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 02 2016 15:27 GMT
#117392
Ooof, now Wikileaks is dropping emails that potentially show collusion between the Clinton Campaign and the DoJ.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
November 02 2016 15:29 GMT
#117393
On November 03 2016 00:27 xDaunt wrote:
Ooof, now Wikileaks is dropping emails that potentially show collusion between the Clinton Campaign and the DoJ.


Was anyone surprised?
Question.?
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
November 02 2016 15:30 GMT
#117394
On November 02 2016 11:33 oneofthem wrote:
one of the more serious negative reports on hrc from my perspective is from sarah chayes who worked under general mccrystal in afghanistan. she thought hrc was slow to act on corrosive corruption in the afghan govt and it undermined the mission. overly militarized approach and too much deference to the generals.

but then again, admiral mullen was vetted as vp and hrc has a better understanding of how critical the international fight against corruption is for literally everything. this stuff is something the left could do real work on, a genuine 99.9% vs 0.1% issue.

lol thx to wikileaks u can see she understands the issue now and mullen has a respected input

https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/19058


you really are the younger, male version of hillary. now we just need to find the email where she confesses to huma that she has a crush on bloomberg and wants to rule the world with him at her side
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Rebs
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Pakistan10726 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-02 15:32:05
November 02 2016 15:31 GMT
#117395
The speed with which RT picks up and puts up articles everytime the Wikileaks twitter has even the slightest rumble is quite impressive. They must have an entire squad camping that twitter account orr....
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
November 02 2016 15:32 GMT
#117396
On November 02 2016 12:18 xDaunt wrote:
Quick, somewhat OT, question for y'all: what's the likelihood that the residential real estate market shits itself on a national level over the next six-twelve months, and does the victory of Trump or Hillary alter that likelihood?


terrible time to buy a house dauntless.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 02 2016 15:33 GMT
#117397
On November 03 2016 00:29 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2016 00:27 xDaunt wrote:
Ooof, now Wikileaks is dropping emails that potentially show collusion between the Clinton Campaign and the DoJ.


Was anyone surprised?

Of course not. Here's what no one is really talking about yet. The FBI story is overshadowing the Wikileaks stuff in the news, but I can't help but think that the liberal activist base is paying attention to what Wikileaks is dropping and they must be simply horrified by what the Democratic party has become. There are going to be huge repercussions from this in the near future.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42663 Posts
November 02 2016 15:34 GMT
#117398
On November 03 2016 00:33 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2016 00:29 biology]major wrote:
On November 03 2016 00:27 xDaunt wrote:
Ooof, now Wikileaks is dropping emails that potentially show collusion between the Clinton Campaign and the DoJ.


Was anyone surprised?

Of course not. Here's what no one is really talking about yet. The FBI story is overshadowing the Wikileaks stuff in the news, but I can't help but think that the liberal activist base is paying attention to what Wikileaks is dropping and they must be simply horrified by what the Democratic party has become. There are going to be huge repercussions from this in the near future.

Beating Trump may serve as a rallying point that distracts from that. Why be introspective when you can be partisan, after all.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 02 2016 15:37 GMT
#117399
On November 03 2016 00:30 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2016 11:33 oneofthem wrote:
one of the more serious negative reports on hrc from my perspective is from sarah chayes who worked under general mccrystal in afghanistan. she thought hrc was slow to act on corrosive corruption in the afghan govt and it undermined the mission. overly militarized approach and too much deference to the generals.

but then again, admiral mullen was vetted as vp and hrc has a better understanding of how critical the international fight against corruption is for literally everything. this stuff is something the left could do real work on, a genuine 99.9% vs 0.1% issue.

lol thx to wikileaks u can see she understands the issue now and mullen has a respected input

https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/19058


you really are the younger, male version of hillary. now we just need to find the email where she confesses to huma that she has a crush on bloomberg and wants to rule the world with him at her side

hm? not really.

what is your alternative tho?
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13926 Posts
November 02 2016 15:37 GMT
#117400
I don't think it should be that surprised that Russia curated the email leaks as apart of the deal with wikileaks. That they'd inform their news service of the schedule shouldn't be surprised.

pretty sure its been covered that RT is just another Russian intelligence agency.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
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