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On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 21:18 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 18:42 Acrofales wrote:
[quote]
I think this is the first opinion since the "racism war" started about 20 pages back that is actually worth reading.
His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post: My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature.
I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed. If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that.
Then what's your definition of racism?
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On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 21:18 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 18:42 Acrofales wrote:
[quote]
I think this is the first opinion since the "racism war" started about 20 pages back that is actually worth reading.
His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post: My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature.
I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed. If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that.
So "sorta". You think that your upbringing means the racist things you do and say aren't racist. Just so we're on the same page, the "racist culture" I was describing was one of a society not a family.
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United States42014 Posts
On September 24 2016 05:15 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:10 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 05:06 Acrofales wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 04:17 Yoav wrote:On September 24 2016 02:32 KwarK wrote:On September 24 2016 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Pretty amazing how much time Trump spent during the Republican debates talking about polls and the states he had won. It was almost his main focus. What if Hillary said, "look how much he harped on the polls, but ever since the conventions he has been losing to me". She needs to match his comebacks with confidence IMO.
He gets by policy questions by tying things back into his narrow populist stuff, for example anything to do with the economy is "China devaluation trade deficit bad". Also talked about his endorsements on different issues, like Joe Arpaio.
But he talks loudly and with a tone of conviction and assertiveness (different than his run of the mill TV interviews), giving the impression he's in command of the subjects. On the superficial front, he's obviously much better than Hillary on TV.
He has a fairly small grab bag of Hillary attacks, but they are very sweeping in their scope. For example, every single problem in the world currently is her fault because she was SoS (this actually is his position). Bill Clinton signed NAFTA, so the loss of manufacturing jobs is the Clintons' fault. Surely though, Clinton has prepared responses to each item in the grab bag.
She needs to diversify the conversation during the debate, to prevent Trump from being so narrow.
Tbh the debates might not be a trounce one way or another. Unless people really just grade it on presentation, in which case Trump could win. I don't know what in the hell to predict. I'm hoping for her to just go Presidential as fuck, give knowledgeable and detailed answers about the issues, why they matter and her own record on them. It'll contrast strongly with Trump's vague platitudes about how X is the worst and he'll make it the best. I feel like this belief is more generous to the average swing voter than I would be. I would hope so. But honestly, I doubt it. What we won't see but I would love to see would be HRC go all "values" on him. Not about instability or unfitness per se, though those are implied. Just about how this man doesn't represent American values. That Trump is wrong because behind all of his "Make America Great" rhetoric, his whole shtick is that he wants America to not be America. He wants the United States to join the "League of Ordinary Nations," where we put America first and tell the world to take a hike. And that this is an insult to everything our veterans have died for. I could workshop the language but I'm tired from work so you'll have to imagine. Maybe they'll have Kaine do it? He could make a neat values pitch (with a Christian spin). The founding fathers did not want America to be a world police. 1. How do you know? And 2. The founding fathers lived 200 years ago when the world was a very different place. But in any case, I don't think "no longer being world police" is an accurate representation of what Trump advocates. No longer being world police is a fairly vacuous statement. The US mainly protects it's own interests. Do you think the presence in the ME is just policing? No. The presence there is because it's geopolitically important, and oil. Trump advocates actively bullying other countries to "get what he wants". Which tends not to be taken very well on the world stage. I not only think it won't achieve its goals, but will actually backfire quite badly. As long as Trump isn't completely stupid, that only means a tariff war. If he is, it means ww3. Trump will at least leverage/renegotiate America positions. Maybe he'll be humbled by what he can do as an American president and this will in turn humble Americans too to truly see America's position in the world. There are plenty of hidden holes in the system such as the super delegate and how the corrupt the medias are that Trump helped exposing and perhaps he'll expose more as a president. We can't say the same for Hillary. trump hasn't exposed anything about the level of corruption in media that wasn't already well known and anyone can renegotiate positions; i've seen little evidence he'll be able to actually make good deals. and that maybe we should scale back is something that's been discussed for a long time; and some level of scaling back might be good; if you willing to cut military spending.
In fairness Trump did pledge to increase the number of air force fighters from >1,200 to 1200. That probably counts as scaling back.
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On September 24 2016 05:18 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:15 zlefin wrote:On September 24 2016 05:10 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 05:06 Acrofales wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 04:17 Yoav wrote:On September 24 2016 02:32 KwarK wrote:On September 24 2016 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Pretty amazing how much time Trump spent during the Republican debates talking about polls and the states he had won. It was almost his main focus. What if Hillary said, "look how much he harped on the polls, but ever since the conventions he has been losing to me". She needs to match his comebacks with confidence IMO.
He gets by policy questions by tying things back into his narrow populist stuff, for example anything to do with the economy is "China devaluation trade deficit bad". Also talked about his endorsements on different issues, like Joe Arpaio.
But he talks loudly and with a tone of conviction and assertiveness (different than his run of the mill TV interviews), giving the impression he's in command of the subjects. On the superficial front, he's obviously much better than Hillary on TV.
He has a fairly small grab bag of Hillary attacks, but they are very sweeping in their scope. For example, every single problem in the world currently is her fault because she was SoS (this actually is his position). Bill Clinton signed NAFTA, so the loss of manufacturing jobs is the Clintons' fault. Surely though, Clinton has prepared responses to each item in the grab bag.
She needs to diversify the conversation during the debate, to prevent Trump from being so narrow.
Tbh the debates might not be a trounce one way or another. Unless people really just grade it on presentation, in which case Trump could win. I don't know what in the hell to predict. I'm hoping for her to just go Presidential as fuck, give knowledgeable and detailed answers about the issues, why they matter and her own record on them. It'll contrast strongly with Trump's vague platitudes about how X is the worst and he'll make it the best. I feel like this belief is more generous to the average swing voter than I would be. I would hope so. But honestly, I doubt it. What we won't see but I would love to see would be HRC go all "values" on him. Not about instability or unfitness per se, though those are implied. Just about how this man doesn't represent American values. That Trump is wrong because behind all of his "Make America Great" rhetoric, his whole shtick is that he wants America to not be America. He wants the United States to join the "League of Ordinary Nations," where we put America first and tell the world to take a hike. And that this is an insult to everything our veterans have died for. I could workshop the language but I'm tired from work so you'll have to imagine. Maybe they'll have Kaine do it? He could make a neat values pitch (with a Christian spin). The founding fathers did not want America to be a world police. 1. How do you know? And 2. The founding fathers lived 200 years ago when the world was a very different place. But in any case, I don't think "no longer being world police" is an accurate representation of what Trump advocates. No longer being world police is a fairly vacuous statement. The US mainly protects it's own interests. Do you think the presence in the ME is just policing? No. The presence there is because it's geopolitically important, and oil. Trump advocates actively bullying other countries to "get what he wants". Which tends not to be taken very well on the world stage. I not only think it won't achieve its goals, but will actually backfire quite badly. As long as Trump isn't completely stupid, that only means a tariff war. If he is, it means ww3. Trump will at least leverage/renegotiate America positions. Maybe he'll be humbled by what he can do as an American president and this will in turn humble Americans too to truly see America's position in the world. There are plenty of hidden holes in the system such as the super delegate and how the corrupt the medias are that Trump helped exposing and perhaps he'll expose more as a president. We can't say the same for Hillary. trump hasn't exposed anything about the level of corruption in media that wasn't already well known and anyone can renegotiate positions; i've seen little evidence he'll be able to actually make good deals. and that maybe we should scale back is something that's been discussed for a long time; and some level of scaling back might be good; if you willing to cut military spending. Not really, a lot more people are more cognizant of the outrage culture where media smear people. Yes, anyone can negotiate but Trump is a better speaker than Hillary.
outrage culture? media smears? not usre what exactly you referring to; but media smearing people has been done FOREVER. and it hasn't changed all that notably; it's also not corruption, though it might be some other kind of malfeasance.
Trump is a better public speaker than hillary, not a better private speaker. Hillary tends to do well in back-room dealings, and terrible with the public. but most actual deals are made in the backrooms then announced.
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On September 24 2016 05:20 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:15 zlefin wrote:On September 24 2016 05:10 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 05:06 Acrofales wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 04:17 Yoav wrote:On September 24 2016 02:32 KwarK wrote:On September 24 2016 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Pretty amazing how much time Drumpf spent during the Republican debates talking about polls and the states he had won. It was almost his main focus. What if Hillary said, "look how much he harped on the polls, but ever since the conventions he has been losing to me". She needs to match his comebacks with confidence IMO.
He gets by policy questions by tying things back into his narrow populist stuff, for example anything to do with the economy is "China devaluation trade deficit bad". Also talked about his endorsements on different issues, like Joe Arpaio.
But he talks loudly and with a tone of conviction and assertiveness (different than his run of the mill TV interviews), giving the impression he's in command of the subjects. On the superficial front, he's obviously much better than Hillary on TV.
He has a fairly small grab bag of Hillary attacks, but they are very sweeping in their scope. For example, every single problem in the world currently is her fault because she was SoS (this actually is his position). Bill Clinton signed NAFTA, so the loss of manufacturing jobs is the Clintons' fault. Surely though, Clinton has prepared responses to each item in the grab bag.
She needs to diversify the conversation during the debate, to prevent Drumpf from being so narrow.
Tbh the debates might not be a trounce one way or another. Unless people really just grade it on presentation, in which case Drumpf could win. I don't know what in the hell to predict. I'm hoping for her to just go Presidential as fuck, give knowledgeable and detailed answers about the issues, why they matter and her own record on them. It'll contrast strongly with Drumpf's vague platitudes about how X is the worst and he'll make it the best. I feel like this belief is more generous to the average swing voter than I would be. I would hope so. But honestly, I doubt it. What we won't see but I would love to see would be HRC go all "values" on him. Not about instability or unfitness per se, though those are implied. Just about how this man doesn't represent American values. That Drumpf is wrong because behind all of his "Make America Great" rhetoric, his whole shtick is that he wants America to not be America. He wants the United States to join the "League of Ordinary Nations," where we put America first and tell the world to take a hike. And that this is an insult to everything our veterans have died for. I could workshop the language but I'm tired from work so you'll have to imagine. Maybe they'll have Kaine do it? He could make a neat values pitch (with a Christian spin). The founding fathers did not want America to be a world police. 1. How do you know? And 2. The founding fathers lived 200 years ago when the world was a very different place. But in any case, I don't think "no longer being world police" is an accurate representation of what Drumpf advocates. No longer being world police is a fairly vacuous statement. The US mainly protects it's own interests. Do you think the presence in the ME is just policing? No. The presence there is because it's geopolitically important, and oil. Drumpf advocates actively bullying other countries to "get what he wants". Which tends not to be taken very well on the world stage. I not only think it won't achieve its goals, but will actually backfire quite badly. As long as Drumpf isn't completely stupid, that only means a tariff war. If he is, it means ww3. Drumpf will at least leverage/renegotiate America positions. Maybe he'll be humbled by what he can do as an American president and this will in turn humble Americans too to truly see America's position in the world. There are plenty of hidden holes in the system such as the super delegate and how the corrupt the medias are that Drumpf helped exposing and perhaps he'll expose more as a president. We can't say the same for Hillary. trump hasn't exposed anything about the level of corruption in media that wasn't already well known and anyone can renegotiate positions; i've seen little evidence he'll be able to actually make good deals. and that maybe we should scale back is something that's been discussed for a long time; and some level of scaling back might be good; if you willing to cut military spending. In fairness Drumpf did pledge to increase the number of air force fighters from >1,200 to 1200. That probably counts as scaling back.
But then you also scale back by spending more on warships ofc. Especially the ones you dont need.
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On September 24 2016 05:19 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 21:18 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 18:42 Acrofales wrote:On September 23 2016 17:16 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 15:49 Danglars wrote:On September 23 2016 15:03 ChristianS wrote:
Jesus this thread is depressing sometimes.
The last ~24 hours of discussion have put a sobering thought into my head, and I wonder what you guys think of it. Basically, in the last 50 or so years, there's been a strong anti-racist movement in the country as a whole. Laws that discriminate against blacks became widely considered unacceptable, public figures are shunned for expressing racist ideas or using racist epithets. The implied justification was that we as a society were making a concerted effort to eliminate racism as much as possible, and drive whatever resistant strains that survived to . Considered with other historical moves towards equality (elimination of slavery, blacks joining the military, Brown v. Board, etc.), it fit nicely with an overarching narrative of racial progress.
Maybe this is just a problem with anecdotal evidence, but it seems to me those attitudes are completely different in a lot of people today. Hardened Trump supporters often try to deny that Trump is a racist, but far more frequently I see people that just don't seem to care much. They might even lean toward thinking he probably is, but it's just not that important an issue. This is really baffling to me, since for my whole life there's been a widespread cultural agreement that overt racism is one of the ugliest sides of human civilization and absolutely cannot be tolerated, but in the broad view of history, racism is absolutely the norm. Not always as bad as early American South racism, but it's always been pretty normal to distrust people with different cultural and ethnic background than you, treat them worse, value their life less than that of your family or friends or tribe members. I always figured that was just part of progress – unlike humans for most of history, we have cars and refrigerators and computers and a prevailing cultural understanding that racism is bad. It's a nice stroll through memory lane, but you make a sudden leap into modern times by contrasting the civil rights era with Trump and his supporters. Sit at the back of the bus was racism. Separate eating establishments based on race was racism. Immigration policy isn't. Political invective on several issues isn't (though abrasive speech will still cause others to bristle no matter the subject). You're right to call it anecdotal, and it's intensely subjective. You'll see the comparisons to late 1800s racism and xenophobia, others will see you as a wannabe crusader longing for a bygone era but without a real civil rights cause today. Worth noting I never said Trump's immigration policy means he's racist. I was honestly more focused on Trump himself. Being prosecuted by Nixon's Justice Department for really explicitly discriminating against black tenants in his hotels back in the 70's. That stuff by Jack O'Donnell about how when he was president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino, Trump went off about not wanting a black guy as an accountant because blacks are lazy, and he only wants Jews counting his money. Calling Mexicans rapists. Those shitty stereotypes he embraced talking to the Republican Jewish Coalition. Y'know, that stuff. But I wasn't really looking to pick a fight either. I don't really long to be a civil rights crusader. The 50's and 60's sound awful, and I'm glad I didn't have to be around for it. I honestly wish that we were having a relatively normal election between, like, Tim Kaine and Jeb Bush, and I could tune out and read the occasional headline without click on it and maybe get around to registering to vote if I had nothing better to do, but I probably never would because I wouldn't care that much who won. Instead we've got a large, disgruntled population of lower- and middle-class white people who feel that they've been wronged by the world. They think they used to have some kind of glory and power, but now their manufacturing jobs are fading away and they're losing their privileged place in the world, and they feel betrayed and unsafe and powerless. We've got a demagogue candidate who's appealing to this population by telling them that they lost their power because of Mexicans and Muslims and China. He's parading around families of people that were raped or murdered by illegal Mexicans to gin up a rage against these foreigners that are raping and murdering their wives and children. He's saying the whole world is laughing at them because they don't win any more. And he's promising them that if they support him, then by the time he's done, nobody will laugh at them again. This is not a drill, this is how real life racial persecution gets started. This is the type of movement that used to lead to pogroms and lynchings and blood libel. People get so caught up in the movement and the propaganda and the cult of personality around a charismatic leader that they stop paying attention to facts and policy, to the point that you can explain to them that the crime rate is down, not up, that they lost their manufacturing jobs to the inexorable forces of globalism and no one can bring them back, and that illegal immigrants actually commit violent crime at a lower rate than the rest of the population, but it has absolutely no bearing on how they feel. My sobering thought was this: what if we're not on an inevitable march toward progress and greater racial equality? What if the anti-racist attitudes of the last 50 years aren't a lasting cultural achievement, but just a temporary backlash against the ugly racism of the 40's and 50's? People saw how hideous that Nazi movement was, and they saw the horrible treatment of blacks in the South, and the lynching of Emmett Till, and the dogs and firehoses deployed against civil rights protesters, and for a while it became fashionable to be against racism.
But now that all that stuff isn't such recent memory, racism takes on all of the advantages that made it prevalent in human society before. Scapegoating is an easy way to feel better about your problems. Stereotyping is almost inescapable in the psychology of how humans understand the world. Many apparent virtues that people are encouraged to cultivate (e.g. loyalty, empathy) can subconsciously promote tribalism (e.g. loyalty involves favoring those you're close to over those you're not, empathy encourages greater connection to people who are more like you). Racial minorities are often small enough in number that society can get weird impressions of them simply from having too small a sample size, and once a weird (especially negative) bias gets in place, confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy effects tend to maintain or expand that bias.
I've been hoping all the bigotry of the Trump movement would be remembered by history as a weird spike of bigotry as the white American middle class came to terms with several realities it had been in denial about for years. But what if history remembers these past ~50 years as that brief period where American society was largely anti-racist? My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature. I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed. Seems like you're throwing out a lot of punches at stuff I'm not sure if you're assuming I support. I'm also not sure what's meant by terms like "racial realism." It seems to denote a position which acknowledges the realities of race (about which this "regressive left" is presumably in denial), but I'm not sure what realities you think those are. A white supremacist might say they're a "racial realist" for acknowledging that white people are better than black people. An SJW might call themselves a "racial realist" for acknowledging the power dynamics between whites and various minorities in America today, such that a "color-blind" approach can't solve racial issues. I assume you're in neither of these camps, so you probably mean something more along the lines of acknowledging black culture has some toxic trends which contribute to blacks' underprivileged state (which the regressive left insists is a racist position)? I'm only guessing at your meaning here. But you seem to be opposed to much of the social backlash that currently exists against people and positions viewed as "racist," and I assume you don't think we shouldn't stigmatize actual racism, so you must think the labels of racist and bigot have been over-applied by the left. I might even agree with that. Online articles trying to teach white people about "microagressions" and the like can be alright when they come from a place of earnestly trying to help whites understand how to make racial minorities feel more at ease and less alienated, but when they come in the form of condemning anyone who uses the question "So, where are you from?" in small talk as Grand Dragon of the KKK, I think it weakens the label of "racist" and makes it easier for actual racists to hide behind the cover of just being "politically incorrect." A lot of people that use terms like "cultural appropriation" and "gentrification" to explain how white people are literally Hitler are being sloppy in their reasoning, and mostly just making people think it's okay to be skeptical that they could possibly ever be racist. So I think you've assumed that I'm a member of that club, and I'm really not. Back in saner times, most of my online arguments were with those very people. But that group mostly just whines and blogs about Miley Cyrus appropriating this or that. This ethnocentrist movement wants to take over the world. I was hoping that, based on a progress-based view of racial equality, America had come far enough that it could tell the difference between telling an off-color joke to your friends (i.e. political incorrectness) and accusing Mexico of deliberately sending rapists across the border (i.e. racism). I was wrong, thus I am rethinking my assumption that racial equality has steadily improved over time and will only keep getting better. I think this is the first opinion since the "racism war" started about 20 pages back that is actually worth reading. His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post: My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature.
I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed. If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives.Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Could you explain a bit more about the part in bold? I'm not sure I totally understand.
If you stop racist people from behaving in racist ways against their will, they get mad and it pent up and blow up in the form of Trumpism. There are definitely issues in the totalitarian-isk approach, but is it at fault or avoidable, that is up to interpretation.
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On September 24 2016 05:19 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 21:18 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post:
[quote] If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that. Then what's your definition of racism?
I'd have to think about that one, but I do know that I generally reject using racism to describe the facially neutral. If racist intent can be demonstrated, then fine, we can talk. What I categorically reject, however, is any definition of racism that paints 40% of the country as being racist.
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On September 24 2016 05:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:06 oBlade wrote:On September 24 2016 04:36 KwarK wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 04:17 Yoav wrote:On September 24 2016 02:32 KwarK wrote:On September 24 2016 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Pretty amazing how much time Trump spent during the Republican debates talking about polls and the states he had won. It was almost his main focus. What if Hillary said, "look how much he harped on the polls, but ever since the conventions he has been losing to me". She needs to match his comebacks with confidence IMO.
He gets by policy questions by tying things back into his narrow populist stuff, for example anything to do with the economy is "China devaluation trade deficit bad". Also talked about his endorsements on different issues, like Joe Arpaio.
But he talks loudly and with a tone of conviction and assertiveness (different than his run of the mill TV interviews), giving the impression he's in command of the subjects. On the superficial front, he's obviously much better than Hillary on TV.
He has a fairly small grab bag of Hillary attacks, but they are very sweeping in their scope. For example, every single problem in the world currently is her fault because she was SoS (this actually is his position). Bill Clinton signed NAFTA, so the loss of manufacturing jobs is the Clintons' fault. Surely though, Clinton has prepared responses to each item in the grab bag.
She needs to diversify the conversation during the debate, to prevent Trump from being so narrow.
Tbh the debates might not be a trounce one way or another. Unless people really just grade it on presentation, in which case Trump could win. I don't know what in the hell to predict. I'm hoping for her to just go Presidential as fuck, give knowledgeable and detailed answers about the issues, why they matter and her own record on them. It'll contrast strongly with Trump's vague platitudes about how X is the worst and he'll make it the best. I feel like this belief is more generous to the average swing voter than I would be. I would hope so. But honestly, I doubt it. What we won't see but I would love to see would be HRC go all "values" on him. Not about instability or unfitness per se, though those are implied. Just about how this man doesn't represent American values. That Trump is wrong because behind all of his "Make America Great" rhetoric, his whole shtick is that he wants America to not be America. He wants the United States to join the "League of Ordinary Nations," where we put America first and tell the world to take a hike. And that this is an insult to everything our veterans have died for. I could workshop the language but I'm tired from work so you'll have to imagine. Maybe they'll have Kaine do it? He could make a neat values pitch (with a Christian spin). The founding fathers did not want America to be a world police. The founding fathers just wanted somewhere nice and quiet to answer to nobody and make black people do all their work for them without remuneration. I'm pretty happy America has strayed from that path. The founding fathers didn't need to leave the British empire to keep slaves. Did you miss the "answer to nobody part" or did you just not understand it? Their mission statement was essentially to create a state with no kings, no Popes, no state religion, no taxes, basically no power greater than middle class white landowners. Then, once they had that, trade human misery for currency. I'm all for judging historical figures in the appropriate context but we should be able to agree that the America of the Founding Fathers doesn't really hold up nowadays.
They did not set out to trade human misery for currency. That was the status quo. The British empire was already in that business (could have just remained as the colonies), and both countries ended up eliminating the slave trade at the same time. The only thing that slowed the US down later was figuring out how to make bank off of cotton before slavery had been eliminated domestically, but that wasn't the "founding fathers" at work and there was a war explicitly to fix that. All of the other things you're listing were a step forwards and the foundation of your modern world.
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On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 21:18 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 18:42 Acrofales wrote:
[quote]
I think this is the first opinion since the "racism war" started about 20 pages back that is actually worth reading.
His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post: My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature.
I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed. If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that.
Again with this 'I don't see race' argument.
All it means to me is that your utterly blind to your prejudice.
'I don't see race', 'I have black friends/family'. They are the classic defense used by racists. Do you seriously not see this?
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On September 24 2016 05:24 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:19 TheDwf wrote:On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:
[quote]
If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that. Then what's your definition of racism? I'd have to think about that one, but I do know that I generally reject using racism to describe the facially neutral. If racist intent can be demonstrated, then fine, we can talk. What I categorically reject, however, is any definition of racism that paints 40% of the country as being racist.
This isn't a courtroom, and racism doesn't need intent to be racist.
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Why do I get the idea that somehow people still are using different definitions of racism and what it means to be a racist. Despite the many times this topic has been brought up.
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On September 24 2016 05:21 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:18 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 05:15 zlefin wrote:On September 24 2016 05:10 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 05:06 Acrofales wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 04:17 Yoav wrote:On September 24 2016 02:32 KwarK wrote:On September 24 2016 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Pretty amazing how much time Trump spent during the Republican debates talking about polls and the states he had won. It was almost his main focus. What if Hillary said, "look how much he harped on the polls, but ever since the conventions he has been losing to me". She needs to match his comebacks with confidence IMO.
He gets by policy questions by tying things back into his narrow populist stuff, for example anything to do with the economy is "China devaluation trade deficit bad". Also talked about his endorsements on different issues, like Joe Arpaio.
But he talks loudly and with a tone of conviction and assertiveness (different than his run of the mill TV interviews), giving the impression he's in command of the subjects. On the superficial front, he's obviously much better than Hillary on TV.
He has a fairly small grab bag of Hillary attacks, but they are very sweeping in their scope. For example, every single problem in the world currently is her fault because she was SoS (this actually is his position). Bill Clinton signed NAFTA, so the loss of manufacturing jobs is the Clintons' fault. Surely though, Clinton has prepared responses to each item in the grab bag.
She needs to diversify the conversation during the debate, to prevent Trump from being so narrow.
Tbh the debates might not be a trounce one way or another. Unless people really just grade it on presentation, in which case Trump could win. I don't know what in the hell to predict. I'm hoping for her to just go Presidential as fuck, give knowledgeable and detailed answers about the issues, why they matter and her own record on them. It'll contrast strongly with Trump's vague platitudes about how X is the worst and he'll make it the best. I feel like this belief is more generous to the average swing voter than I would be. I would hope so. But honestly, I doubt it. What we won't see but I would love to see would be HRC go all "values" on him. Not about instability or unfitness per se, though those are implied. Just about how this man doesn't represent American values. That Trump is wrong because behind all of his "Make America Great" rhetoric, his whole shtick is that he wants America to not be America. He wants the United States to join the "League of Ordinary Nations," where we put America first and tell the world to take a hike. And that this is an insult to everything our veterans have died for. I could workshop the language but I'm tired from work so you'll have to imagine. Maybe they'll have Kaine do it? He could make a neat values pitch (with a Christian spin). The founding fathers did not want America to be a world police. 1. How do you know? And 2. The founding fathers lived 200 years ago when the world was a very different place. But in any case, I don't think "no longer being world police" is an accurate representation of what Trump advocates. No longer being world police is a fairly vacuous statement. The US mainly protects it's own interests. Do you think the presence in the ME is just policing? No. The presence there is because it's geopolitically important, and oil. Trump advocates actively bullying other countries to "get what he wants". Which tends not to be taken very well on the world stage. I not only think it won't achieve its goals, but will actually backfire quite badly. As long as Trump isn't completely stupid, that only means a tariff war. If he is, it means ww3. Trump will at least leverage/renegotiate America positions. Maybe he'll be humbled by what he can do as an American president and this will in turn humble Americans too to truly see America's position in the world. There are plenty of hidden holes in the system such as the super delegate and how the corrupt the medias are that Trump helped exposing and perhaps he'll expose more as a president. We can't say the same for Hillary. trump hasn't exposed anything about the level of corruption in media that wasn't already well known and anyone can renegotiate positions; i've seen little evidence he'll be able to actually make good deals. and that maybe we should scale back is something that's been discussed for a long time; and some level of scaling back might be good; if you willing to cut military spending. Not really, a lot more people are more cognizant of the outrage culture where media smear people. Yes, anyone can negotiate but Trump is a better speaker than Hillary. Trump is a better public speaker than hillary, not a better private speaker. Hillary tends to do well in back-room dealings, and terrible with the public. but most actual deals are made in the backrooms then announced.
Oh my this post is just as stupid as it gets.
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On September 24 2016 05:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 21:18 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post:
[quote] If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that. Again with this 'I don't see race' argument. All it means to me is that your utterly blind to your prejudice. 'I don't see race', 'I have black friends/family'. They are the classic defense used by racists. Do you seriously not see this?
As I have said repeatedly, I think that it is utterly retarded to consider color blindness to be racist, and I think that this is where the left jumped the shark on the racial debate.
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On September 24 2016 05:27 Slaughter wrote:
Why do I get the idea that somehow people still are using different definitions of racism and what it means to be a racist. Despite the many times this topic has been brought up.
Can't really help with that since people posting here has all sorts of different background.
In my experience the meaning of racism in Taiwan, Finland and even different of US is vastly different.
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On September 24 2016 05:27 Slaughter wrote:
Why do I get the idea that somehow people still are using different definitions of racism and what it means to be a racist. Despite the many times this topic has been brought up.
I would specify with "raycism" if it was necessary, but even the definition preferred by the most ridiculous here, there's no need for intent, or even for it to be conscious.
On September 24 2016 05:29 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:26 Gorsameth wrote:On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:
[quote]
If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that. Again with this 'I don't see race' argument. All it means to me is that your utterly blind to your prejudice. 'I don't see race', 'I have black friends/family'. They are the classic defense used by racists. Do you seriously not see this? As I have said repeatedly, I think that it is utterly retarded to consider color blindness to be racist, and I think that this is where the left jumped the shark on the racial debate.
Being colorblind isn't a thing, "colorblind" people are just people being willfully ignorant of their prejudices, which is why people say they, are in fact, racist (they mean raycist) because that only works for white people.
I can be "colorblind" as I want, but it doesn't mean anything if the person interviewing me isn't.
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On September 24 2016 05:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:On September 23 2016 21:18 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post:
[quote] If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that. Again with this 'I don't see race' argument. All it means to me is that your utterly blind to your prejudice. 'I don't see race', 'I have black friends/family'. They are the classic defense used by racists. Do you seriously not see this?
What would a non-racist say? Because from here the presumption is everyone is racist but you're only excused if you say "I know I'm racist but I'm working on it" and proselytize at the rest of the world.
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On September 24 2016 05:29 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:26 Gorsameth wrote:On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:
[quote]
If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that. Again with this 'I don't see race' argument. All it means to me is that your utterly blind to your prejudice. 'I don't see race', 'I have black friends/family'. They are the classic defense used by racists. Do you seriously not see this? As I have said repeatedly, I think that it is utterly retarded to consider color blindness to be racist, and I think that this is where the left jumped the shark on the racial debate.
People who claim to be color blind aren't necessarily racist. It just means the person making the claim is blissfully unselfaware.
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On September 24 2016 05:29 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:26 Gorsameth wrote:On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:
[quote]
If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that. Again with this 'I don't see race' argument. All it means to me is that your utterly blind to your prejudice. 'I don't see race', 'I have black friends/family'. They are the classic defense used by racists. Do you seriously not see this? As I have said repeatedly, I think that it is utterly retarded to consider color blindness to be racist, and I think that this is where the left jumped the shark on the racial debate.
I sorta get this, but the issue with color blindness is:
"we brought over a bunch of people over against their will and treated them like animal for a couple hundred years, then systematically oppressed them when we can't anymore, but it has NOTHING to do with why they are poorer, less educated, and more likely to commit crime now! equality!"
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On September 24 2016 05:29 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:26 Gorsameth wrote:On September 24 2016 05:13 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 05:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2016 04:59 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:53 ragz_gt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 ChristianS wrote:On September 24 2016 01:21 xDaunt wrote:On September 23 2016 22:50 ChristianS wrote:
[quote]
If by "struggles with" you mean "has trouble figuring out what he's getting at," you're absolutely right. I mean I've been puzzling over the term "racial realism" and I still can't figure out what it is supposed to mean. Racial realism is an idea from the alt right that there are differences between the races that should be recognized and accounted for as opposed to washing over those differences with the artificial (ie "the not real") construct of liberal/progressive egalitarianism. Depending upon how you define the alt right, different factions of the alt right reach different conclusions from this perspective, ranging from advocacy for western culture to advocacy for white nationalism. So if I understand correctly: -Racial realism is the idea that there are innate differences between races (sometimes called essentialism). Unclear whether these essentialist classifications imply a superior/inferior dynamic (although historically they almost always have). The bolded part is more or less correct. The one thing left out is that the racial realist does not believe it to be taboo to discuss these things -- ie current paradigms of political correctness are no hindrance to the conversation. As for the unbolded part, racial realism doesn't imply any sort of out of outcome to the inquiry. It's a merely a perspective on the debate. Think of it as the equivalent to Marxism and history. -Danglars believes there is a campaign against this essentialism, and considers it a sobering thought that this campaign might not stop at some point. I'll leave it to Danglars to explain what he thinks on this point. -xDaunt considers this the part that people on the "other side of the issue" like me always struggle with. To be very precise, what I believe that the PC crowd struggles with is understanding how their racial policies of the past few generations have impacted the types of people who are now supporting Trump or who are turning to things like the alt right and its derivatives. Are xDaunt and Danglars actually arguing that innate differences between races exist such that we should treat members of different races differently? Is that not an absolutely textbook definition of racism? I'll let Danglars speak for himself. As for me, I'm merely pointing out why there's a large contingent of Americans who are bucking the current PC norms. Again, race means essentially nothing to me as a politically significant classification. Are you Kellyanne Conway in disguise for Danglars? I know what Danglars was saying, but given the penchant of certain shitposters to liberally label people as racists when this topic comes up, I'd rather not say anything inadvertently that results in him dealing with a bunch of needless shit. I know you don't think you're racist, but do you at least admit to yourself that you do and say racist things? Or do you genuinely believe you are impervious to the undeniably racist culture you grew up in? I'll be the first to say that I'm politically incorrect and that I fully embrace -- and even flaunt -- that trait. But I find it particularly amusing that people accuse me of racism or white supremacy or of having grown up in a "racist culture" when my family is about as multi-racial as it gets. Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Africans, Chinese, and Indians are all represented. This is why race means nothing to me. I get why some people may think that I say racist things, but those people have the wrong definition of racism for all of the reasons that I have listed over the past couple of days (and previously). It's really as simple as that. Again with this 'I don't see race' argument. All it means to me is that your utterly blind to your prejudice. 'I don't see race', 'I have black friends/family'. They are the classic defense used by racists. Do you seriously not see this? What would a non-racist say? Because from here the presumption is everyone is racist but you're only excused if you say "I know I'm racist but I'm working on it" and proselytize at the rest of the world.
And this is the problem with the over-expansive definition of racism that the PC left has adopted: if everyone is a racist, then no one is.
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United States42014 Posts
On September 24 2016 05:25 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2016 05:10 KwarK wrote:On September 24 2016 05:06 oBlade wrote:On September 24 2016 04:36 KwarK wrote:On September 24 2016 04:31 RealityIsKing wrote:On September 24 2016 04:17 Yoav wrote:On September 24 2016 02:32 KwarK wrote:On September 24 2016 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Pretty amazing how much time Trump spent during the Republican debates talking about polls and the states he had won. It was almost his main focus. What if Hillary said, "look how much he harped on the polls, but ever since the conventions he has been losing to me". She needs to match his comebacks with confidence IMO.
He gets by policy questions by tying things back into his narrow populist stuff, for example anything to do with the economy is "China devaluation trade deficit bad". Also talked about his endorsements on different issues, like Joe Arpaio.
But he talks loudly and with a tone of conviction and assertiveness (different than his run of the mill TV interviews), giving the impression he's in command of the subjects. On the superficial front, he's obviously much better than Hillary on TV.
He has a fairly small grab bag of Hillary attacks, but they are very sweeping in their scope. For example, every single problem in the world currently is her fault because she was SoS (this actually is his position). Bill Clinton signed NAFTA, so the loss of manufacturing jobs is the Clintons' fault. Surely though, Clinton has prepared responses to each item in the grab bag.
She needs to diversify the conversation during the debate, to prevent Trump from being so narrow.
Tbh the debates might not be a trounce one way or another. Unless people really just grade it on presentation, in which case Trump could win. I don't know what in the hell to predict. I'm hoping for her to just go Presidential as fuck, give knowledgeable and detailed answers about the issues, why they matter and her own record on them. It'll contrast strongly with Trump's vague platitudes about how X is the worst and he'll make it the best. I feel like this belief is more generous to the average swing voter than I would be. I would hope so. But honestly, I doubt it. What we won't see but I would love to see would be HRC go all "values" on him. Not about instability or unfitness per se, though those are implied. Just about how this man doesn't represent American values. That Trump is wrong because behind all of his "Make America Great" rhetoric, his whole shtick is that he wants America to not be America. He wants the United States to join the "League of Ordinary Nations," where we put America first and tell the world to take a hike. And that this is an insult to everything our veterans have died for. I could workshop the language but I'm tired from work so you'll have to imagine. Maybe they'll have Kaine do it? He could make a neat values pitch (with a Christian spin). The founding fathers did not want America to be a world police. The founding fathers just wanted somewhere nice and quiet to answer to nobody and make black people do all their work for them without remuneration. I'm pretty happy America has strayed from that path. The founding fathers didn't need to leave the British empire to keep slaves. Did you miss the "answer to nobody part" or did you just not understand it? Their mission statement was essentially to create a state with no kings, no Popes, no state religion, no taxes, basically no power greater than middle class white landowners. Then, once they had that, trade human misery for currency. I'm all for judging historical figures in the appropriate context but we should be able to agree that the America of the Founding Fathers doesn't really hold up nowadays. They did not set out to trade human misery for currency. That was the status quo. The British empire was already in that business (could have just remained as the colonies), and both countries ended up eliminating the slave trade at the same time. The only thing that slowed the US down later was figuring out how to make bank off of cotton before slavery had been eliminated domestically, but that wasn't the "founding fathers" at work and there was a war explicitly to fix that. All of the other things you're listing were a step forwards and the foundation of your modern world.
I'm not sure you can accidentally be a slave owner. If I woke up tomorrow and found I owned a bunch of black people I wouldn't attempt to argue it was the status quo, I'd let them go. Of course my grand-kids are going to play gotcha with that and point out that my cocoa is harvested by child slaves in Ghana and I continue to consume it because it's the status quo so clearly that makes me an asshole who supports slavery. And you know what, they won't be wrong. But you can't get cocoa powder at the stores I go to that isn't linked to slave labour and I'm too much of an asshole to try and find some free range child labour stuff at Whole Foods so whatever, I accept it as the status quo. Progress is being judged by your grand-kids for the fucked up shit you were too much of an asshole to change. Wrong doesn't become right just because it's the status quo.
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EPT
