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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 10 2016 15:34 GMT
#75621
When cynicism, marketing and nationalism all meet in one perfect moment.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/10/11648388/budweiser-renaming-beer-america

There are moments when I question if Robo-Cop was satire or a warning of a very real future.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Reaper9
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1724 Posts
May 10 2016 15:38 GMT
#75622
Robo-Cop is a prophecy, a very very drunk prophecy -_-
I post only when my brain works.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 10 2016 15:39 GMT
#75623
On May 11 2016 00:13 ticklishmusic wrote:
howabout

improving healthcare access/cost by lowering drug prices and high insurance premiums
focus on early education and k-12 education
controlling the rising cost of college
reinvesting in heavy industry/ extraction communities
reducing emissions and investing in clean energy
regulating shadow banking, i e insurance, private markets and derivatives
increased research $ for alzheimers
creating an infrastructure bank + bond program to support development
criminal justice reform

etc

these are the ones off the top of my head/ the ones i care about the most

there are plenty of reasons to support hillary but people kind of try to ignore them and reduce it to a "well shes a dislikeable person and corrupt etc etc"

How many people are going to get a political boner from this policy wonk stuff? This isn't the type of stuff that motivates people. The strongest pitches are the emotional ones. Trump has an emotional pitch. Hillary doesn't and never will have one. That's her biggest flaw as a politician. As sad as it sounds, you're giving people too much credit to vote rationally.
Reaper9
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1724 Posts
May 10 2016 15:42 GMT
#75624
People do vote with their emotions, that I will have to agree with you xDaunt. Trump has also insulted nearly every "minority" group in the country. We have emotions too, and the emotion I have right now is one of disgust.
I post only when my brain works.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-10 15:43:56
May 10 2016 15:43 GMT
#75625
Many women (and men, for that matter) also have a strong emotional response to Hillary's candidacy, so the notion that Trump is the only one campaigning on emotional appeal is rather misplaced.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 10 2016 15:49 GMT
#75626
And that there is no emotional appeal to the argument that Trump is promising things that are impossible and that he can’t deliver.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 10 2016 15:51 GMT
#75627
On May 11 2016 00:43 farvacola wrote:
Many women (and men, for that matter) also have a strong emotional response to Hillary's candidacy, so the notion that Trump is the only one campaigning on emotional appeal is rather misplaced.

I wouldn't be satisfied with Hillary's emotional appeal if I were you. Her track record on that point is not good. As I am sure that you are tired of me saying, she is neither Obama nor her husband.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 10 2016 16:08 GMT
#75628
The only problem is that Hillary has no emotional appeal. Bill Clinton, Obama, Trump, and even Sanders have emotional appeal. The reason is they have a good poker face to fake it if they have to she doesn't. Like when she started her campaign and toured with her notepad people didn't buy because they knew she wasn't going to base her platform on what she experienced and when she laughs you know she's either pissed, or deflecting.

Anyways...

Buckle up for the next six months: Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are effectively tied in the swing states of Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, according to the results of a Quinnipiac University survey released Tuesday.

Split along lines of gender, race and age, the presumptive Republican nominee and the likely Democratic nominee appear poised for tight battles in those states, though Democratic candidate Bernie Sanders performs better against Trump than Clinton does and is also seen more favorably by voters in all three states. No presidential candidate has won an election since 1960 without winning at least two of the three states.

In Florida, Clinton leads Trump, 43 percent to 42 percent, while Sanders earned 44 percent to Trump's 42 percent. While Clinton holds a 13-point advantage among Florida women — 48 percent to 35 percent — Trump’s lead among men is equally large, at 49 percent to 36 percent. Independent Florida voters are split, 39 percent to 39 percent, while along racial lines, white voters said they would vote for the Republican candidate 52 percent to 33 percent. Among nonwhite voters, 63 percent to 20 percent said they would vote for the Democrat. Clinton’s favorability in Florida is a net negative 20 points (37 percent to 57 percent), though Trump earned the same numbers. For Sanders, 43 percent said they had a favorable opinion of him, 41 percent unfavorable and 14 percent said they did not know enough to have an opinion.

In Ohio, registered voters preferred Trump to Clinton, 43 percent to 39 percent, while Sanders edged Trump 43 percent to 41 percent. Trump leads among men in Ohio, 51 percent to 36 percent, while women prefer Clinton in the state 43 percent to 36 percent. While 49 percent to 32 percent of white voters go for the Republican candidate, a whopping 76 percent to 14 percent of nonwhite voters said they will go for the Democratic candidate. Among voters ages 18 to 34, Clinton leads 43 percent to 39 percent, while voters older than 65 preferred Trump 46 percent to 40 percent. Among independents, 40 percent said they would back Trump and 37 percent would go for Clinton.

In Pennsylvania, Clinton leads 43 percent to 42 percent, mirroring the gender and racial gaps in the other swing states. Among women, Clinton leads 51 percent to 32 percent, while Trump leads with men 54 percent to 33 percent. Clinton holds a 7-point lead among voters ages 18 to 34 (49 percent to 42 percent), while Trump commands the same level of support among voters 65 and older. White voters said they would support the Republican candidate 48 percent to 37 percent, while nonwhite voters said they would support the Democrat, 74 percent to 14 percent.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
economist_
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Vietnam719 Posts
May 10 2016 16:08 GMT
#75629
wow, the new Quinnipiac polls in swing states show almost within errors. Things looking good for trump.
By the way, trump has picked up around 2.5 million subscribers each on twitter and facebook since he announced his pres. bid.
Economics forecast assumes everything, except responsibilities
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
May 10 2016 16:10 GMT
#75630
On May 11 2016 00:01 pmh wrote:
Off course its not morally wrong to not vote against the worst candidate,nor is it morally wrong to not vote at all.
The underlying principle of this is quiet trivial and it has backfired multiple time in international politics:my enemys enemy is my friend.
Voting for someone is seen as an act of support for the one you vote for. Not as an act of rebellion against the worst candidate. The more votes the more the elected official gets validated.
If I don't want to support the worst candidate,but at the same time want to send a message that I do not support the second worst candidate either then I would simply not vote at all.

Its a sign on the wall that the best arguments for the democrats in this election are not arguments in favor of Hillary and her policys, but arguments against trump. Its a negative approach,not a positive.
Trump on the other hand has his own message why people should vote for him. Fight for the middle class and America,build a wall and make good trade deals.
Honestly,how are the democrats trying to sell Hillary,what is her message?
Maybe its the media not giving it much attention. Other then the usual bla bla every politician says during elections i have no clue what her unique message is.
Democrats should start working on selling Hillary,instead of trying to convince people that trump will be a disaster.
Sanders as VP would be a good start. He has a clear message that sells and that does appeal to many people.


Voting is not about the candidate, its about the government. You are voting for pieces of a complex cog. There are local elections, mid term elections, in all ranks from city councilman to president. And much like you don't just have a 10+ quarterbacks in an american football team, you shouldn't vote based on what guy you think matches an ideological purity. You are voting for what you want your government to be able to do, not for a totem to point to as a representative of who your government is.

People who think like you is the whole reason politics is rotten.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 10 2016 16:14 GMT
#75631
I wouldn't place much stock in the polls before the conventions. That said, when I saw that poll earlier this morning, my first thought was that it's a bad sign for Hillary that the numbers are so close this early.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-10 16:55:59
May 10 2016 16:17 GMT
#75632
i remain pretty unworried about the outcome of the election

i prefer hillary over the angry "we're getting screwed" emotional appeal by trump and sanders. i would say im pretty enthused by the idea of hillary as prez and so are many others though we dont wear our hearts on our sleeves so to speak (well, most of the time).

soon as i cash out my democratic primary bets im probably dumping most of it into GE bets. better ROI than my retirement accounts, which is saying something (considering i made a shitload off of shorting valeant)
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-10 16:19:28
May 10 2016 16:17 GMT
#75633
there is a lot of emotional appeal to Hillary as representing rational, issue based politics. sandernistas clamoring for pogroms vs the rich might not understand

from Cicero to Washington to Obama really, reasonable politics in service of the people and functional democracy. lots of emotional appeal here
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
May 10 2016 16:30 GMT
#75634
On May 10 2016 23:29 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2016 23:18 LemOn wrote:
And I'm wondering to Bernie supporters here - will you get up and vote for Hillary in the general election?
I really hope you won't be bitter and her beating Bernie won't stop you from helping Trump lose.


I will not, because I don't support Hillary. I understand the logic behind voting for Hillary because you think she is better than other candidates (trump), but it's not the logic I use. It has nothing to do with being bitter, if Bernie never existed I still wouldn't be voting for Hillary. I do not vote for candidates that I do not believe hold general welfare above all else.

Some people strongly believe that it is morally wrong to not vote against the worse candidate. I think there is an interesting philosophical discussion to be had there, it's one I have thought about a lot. It's not the conclusion I have come to.

There is no material benefit to your "logic". If someone offers you the ability to be stabbed in the foot instead of the heart, the foot always makes sense. You just sound whiny. There's no candidate you feel great about voting for, so you just sit out. The lesser of two evils is always logical.

You are a glowing example of why young people are not catered to. You give up and walk away from the political process when you encounter difficulty.
Cam Connor
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Canada786 Posts
May 10 2016 16:33 GMT
#75635
those bullish on trump's chances, what's your market on him winning
is he cheap at 40% where he is currently? where does he become rich? 60%? 75%?
post to be
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-10 16:46:35
May 10 2016 16:45 GMT
#75636
On May 11 2016 01:33 Cam Connor wrote:
those bullish on trump's chances, what's your market on him winning
is he cheap at 40% where he is currently? where does he become rich? 60%? 75%?

40% is probably cheap. Just bear in mind that a bet on Trump is also a bet that the currently accepted norms of political strategy are wrong. I definitely wouldn't rule that possibility out (Trump has made plenty of people look like fools so far), but you should at least understand what you're betting on.
Cam Connor
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Canada786 Posts
May 10 2016 16:56 GMT
#75637
i dont bet on politics but my life runs on bid offer so it's the only way i think about things
post to be
TL+ Member
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
May 10 2016 16:58 GMT
#75638
On May 11 2016 01:17 oneofthem wrote:
there is a lot of emotional appeal to Hillary as representing rational, issue based politics. sandernistas clamoring for pogroms vs the rich might not understand

from Cicero to Washington to Obama really, reasonable politics in service of the people and functional democracy. lots of emotional appeal here


Whenever people talk about emotional appeal and being inspiring I always think back to the spot on Onion article: http://www.theonion.com/article/female-presidential-candidate-who-was-united-state-52367
SolaR-
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States2685 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-10 17:04:04
May 10 2016 17:03 GMT
#75639
On May 10 2016 08:19 SK.Testie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2016 07:26 Acrofales wrote:
On May 10 2016 07:03 Ghostcom wrote:
On May 10 2016 06:41 Plansix wrote:
On May 10 2016 06:37 xDaunt wrote:
On May 10 2016 06:34 Plansix wrote:
On May 10 2016 06:28 xDaunt wrote:
On May 10 2016 05:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On May 10 2016 04:44 xDaunt wrote:
On May 10 2016 03:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Oh man... I don't even know what to say.

Well, someone (not Churchill) said that the best argument against democracy is a five minutes conversation with the average voter; I guess you are a pretty good illustration. That you can think that someone who didn't bother to utter anything true, that made one burlesque proposal after another, that fuels hatred and bigotry and whose main attributes are to be a vulgar, boastful, and a complete bully is a better choice than one of America's most experienced politician, I am pretty fucking sad for you.

The saddest thing is that you seem like a reasonably well informed person. And that's depressing; to see resentful and completely ignorant people voting for him is bad enough; but that someone able to have more or less a rational discussion is backing up this clown is just beyond me.

Anyway. Germans voted for Hitler, Italians Mussolini, French people are voting for Le Pen and English for Farage. If people decide to go full stupid, there is little to do. I guess that's the price to pay for democracy.

Seriously, voting is a responsibility. Get back to planet earth.

Why I (and many others) support Trump over Hillary really isn't that hard to understand. Those who purport to not understand it are either idiots or liars. Your post is fairly emblematic of the latter possibility. Trump's platform, such as it is, far more closely aligns with my personal views than Hillary's. For that reason alone, I'd rather roll the dice with Trump than vote for Hillary. Second, and to the extent that Trump has personality/character problems, Hillary has a whole freight train's worth of her own, which you are more than happy to overlook. She's a liar. She's crooked. Most importantly, she has a demonstrable record of failure from Hillarycare through her time as Secretary of State (which was particularly bad). It's not like people who support Trump are passing on some prodigy. Hillary is a middling politician at best.

Finally, I want Trump elected as a gigantic "fuck you" to the current political and cultural establishments, which are both rotten. I've railed plenty against the GOP recently, so I'll pass on elaborating there. On the cultural side, I deeply resent the current oppression that the left has imposed on political and societal discourse. We presently can't even have intelligent discussions about things like immigration policy for fear of getting pulled over by the PC police. Trump has already reopened lines of discourse, and his election will cement those gains and accelerate the acceptance of true free speech once again. That, in and of itself, is worth a ride on the Trump train.

Seriously, some of you leftists around here need to spend a good solid five minutes with your heads out of your asses and take the time to actually understand the opposing point of view rather than post drivel such as Biff's above. The level of discourse around here from most of you is fucking sad.

I don't think we have a whole lot to discuss, you and me, so I will politely leave that discussion.

I didn't have you pegged as one of those left wingers who is afflicted with retrograde illiberalism. Looks like I was wrong.

Someone politely tells him that they don’t see a lot to be gained by the discussion, XDaunt calls them stupid. As I expected.

You may want to try reading what I wrote again. I did not call him stupid. My complaint is very different.

I am sure I could perform a full breakdown of the specific wording and use of the world “afflicted” as opposed to “subscriber” or “believer” to prove that you meant to imply he has limited mental capacity due his views.

But I don’t have time for that and sometimes it’s nice to cut through the passive aggressive nerd bullshit and just call a spade and spade.


Then let's cut through it: Do you really think it reasonable to denigrate someone and then "politely" excuse yourself from the discussion when your unsubstantiated claims meets reality? Because that was exactly what Biff did. He even managed to equate voting for Trump/Le Pen/Fahrad with Hitler and Mussolini and yet you still consider him polite?

People voting for Trump is not an argument against democracy - it is an argument against the current politicians and their deafness towards a large segment of the population. If you want people to vote for someone else, listen to their concerns instead of trying to silence them (for the vast majority their concerns aren't founded in neither bigotry nor racism), and then give them a better alternative.

It's almost as if the average politician forgot about the "representative" part in a representative democracy.


1. Socioeconomic problems (white privilege eroding, economy not doing well, general instability of where people see themselves and their country down the road)
2. Unrest leads to scapegoating (Mexicans, Muslims)
3. Populist suggests policies targeting scapegoats

Trump's points to address point 1 directly are laughable, but we can at least have a sensible discussion about them. His main platform, however, is point number 3. I reject that position outright, and we SHOULD ignore people wanting to talk about policies regarding singling out muslims, or building walls for mexicans, because we should not take that type of stupid scapegoating seriously.

We should have a sensible discussion about immigration policy reform. We should not have it on the assumption that mexicans are rapists and murderers. We should have a discussion about how to deal with radical Islam abroad, and foreign policy to deal with it. We should not have it on the basis of banning all muslims from entering the US.


"Illegals don't rape at a rate higher than the normal populace!" the left will cry. Actually, they do. By a lot.
Again, I need to post this again it seems. From an extremely leftist news source even. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/central-america-migrants-rape_n_5806972.html
So here is literal proof of saying, "Hey.. 4 out of 5 women are getting raped" and the left responds with righteous indignation, "omg how could you. They don't rape more than anyone else".
"Uhh.. but.. 4 out of 5.."
"You fucking racist bigot."
"No really.. this is a problem and I don't want this on our hands. This problem doesn't belong to us."
"RACISTTTTT."
Are we seriously to pretend that a country that doesn't solve 99% of its murders and is cartel country is really our loving, totally equal companion? Egalitarian fantasy much?

Also, it is the peoples country. And the polls suggest (even among democrats) that banning all Muslim entry temporarily is favorable. If the people of the country agree, how is that not acceptable? Poland is 100% against Muslim immigration and against Islam in general. That's their country, they are very free to do that. Germany and Sweden are not. Does anyone want to live in Malmo Sweden where grenades have gone off because they were top of the charts on tolerance? What did their tolerance get them?
Mexican government providing the manual. So yes, it's true for Trump to say, "When Mexico sends its people"
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/06/world/americas/a-mexican-manual-for-illegal-migrants-upsets-some-in-us.html

So answer this after reading those. When Trump says, "When Mexico sends their people, they're not sending their best etc." Is he wrong? Is he wrong on that statement? Does Islam integrate well with western nations?

How is building a wall a terrible idea when Mexico is proven to be actively sending their poorest people and trying to get rid of them. Mexico itself treats illegal immigrants very harshly. Why should the US treat them with such tender love and care when these same people did not respect the law? Countries aren't shelters for the needy and you cannot take in all of the worlds poor and somehow give them a better life in America.

These are two very popular positions in the US. Since when does anyone else in the world have a right to move into your country against your peoples wishes? If the USA said, "alright, no more Canadians for a while until they say the word about properly" even as silly as that is, they could make that distinction because it is their country. They are 100% ok to make the silliest fucking laws they want if that's their peoples wish.

I've found Europeans especially pretentious and overly liberal about Americas problems. Comparing tiny Scandinavian countries to America is ludicrous. Even comparing the UK and Germany to America is ludicrous. I myself used to be on that European side. The left Jon Stewart side. I still am in many ways, but right now I think America desperately needs Trump. They have real issues that have been ignored. But not just ignored, completely ridiculed and then they themselves are ostracized.

And don't dodge the question on Mexican illegals up there. Someone from the left had better answer to it. 4 out of 5 women raped, and the mexican government has been proven to be helping them along to break the law to enter America. The question is: Is Trump wrong to be saying that they aren't sending their bests and that a lot of rape, crime, and drugs comes with them? Considering that they've all broken the law to enter the country, the crime rate is literally 100%.



Testie, I 100% agree with your reasoning and i believe that we are both coming from the same place in support of Trump. I am too, typically very liberal on many social issues, yet i find myself very intrigued by Trump's proposals. Trump is not a racist or a bigot. He is a man who speaks his mind and openly addresses the issue even if it doesnt fit under political correctness.

With that said, i think democrats and liberals are severely underestimating the base of trump supporters. Trump has way more appeal to swing democrats to vote for him than clinton has for republicans. Trump has managed to keep his campaign broad enough to draw in supporters from all walks of life.
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
May 10 2016 17:10 GMT
#75640
When my ambitious female colleagues at my office talk about Hillary, I hear the emotional appeal in their voice. I think Hillary doesn't have emotional appeal for men (especially dependent-less white men). I think this board, and many other internet boards (looking at you Reddit) are outside of Hillary's emotional appeal demographic.
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
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