EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3626
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22049 Posts
On April 18 2016 04:27 Kipsate wrote: IIRC Obamacare barely passed and is a shadow of its former self, the shadow is oke but could be much more. Its stripped and changed a lot to even get it through the resistance was real. Since its implimentation the "approval rate (in so far as you can measure it) " is pretty is I believe(don't quote me on this) as people have gotten used to it. It fixed the major fucking pre-existing condition thing at the very least, I wouldn't say its a major success but I do think its doing quite decently. Succes is relative I guess and before this it was atrocious, its like going from a 2 to a 3.5/4 on a scale of 1 to 10 or something. And it also makes it bad to try to jump to a 7 right now. It is why I don't like Bernie pushing for Universal Healthcare right now. America just got a major overhaul of its healthcare system and it is still constantly under fire by the Republicans. This is a terrible time to try and shake the entire thing up again. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
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thePunGun
598 Posts
On April 18 2016 04:34 Gorsameth wrote: And it also makes it bad to try to jump to a 7 right now. It is why I don't like Bernie pushing for Universal Healthcare right now. America just got a major overhaul of its healthcare system and it is still constantly under fire by the Republicans. This is a terrible time to try and shake the entire thing up again. Bernie's healthcare plan will be the nail in the coffin for small businesses. Who's gonna pay for it?! Not the 1% fat cats, that's for sure! It will kill off the middle class for good. I'm not hating on Sanders here, but if he's elected we will all feel the "bern" and not in a good way.... | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
On April 18 2016 05:08 thePunGun wrote: Bernie's healthcare plan will be the nail in the coffin for small businesses. Who's gonna pay for it?! Not the 1% fat cats, that's for sure! It will kill off the middle class for good. I'm not hating on Sanders here, but if he's elected we will all feel the "bern" and not in a good way.... Nothing will happen if he gets elected. Look at what happened to Obamacare, do you really think he will get any of the ideas he wants as if through congress? He will have to heavily come down or get completely shut down. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22049 Posts
On April 18 2016 05:42 ticklishmusic wrote: we'll feel the bern then we have to wait 5 weeks before we can see a physician to tell us what the problem is Netherlands here and I have never even had to even wait until the next day to see a doctor if I think I am ill. Treatment takes a little longer depending on how much work it is and if its acute or not. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 18 2016 05:49 Gorsameth wrote: Netherlands here and I have never even had to even wait until the next day to see a doctor if I think I am ill. Treatment takes a little longer depending on how much work it is and if its acute or not. On top of that, you can decide to go "american" and just pay for something yourself and get preferential treatment (private). But that doesn't sound as good as "but i totally need to wait 5 weeks, and then 10 more!". edit: and no, in germany you don't need an appointment to see a doc either. You go there, take a seat - and just wait until you're in line. Can take 30 minutes (i think longest i waited was around 45) - but that's it. Treatment depends on what you have, i don't get what americans think, do you guys suggest that you run around with a broken arm for 3 weeks until you get your xray? oO edit2: example for an inflamed face-nerve for me, which left the left side of my face completely paralyzed: from arriving at the doctors for the first time, to my first "electro-shock therapy" (to prevent the nerve from deteriorating) it took roughly 4 hours. That's including all waiting, diagnosis, driving to the therapist. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
On April 18 2016 05:51 m4ini wrote: On top of that, you can decide to go "american" and just pay for something yourself and get preferential treatment (private). But that doesn't sound as good as "but i totally need to wait 5 weeks, and then 10 more!". edit: and no, in germany you don't need an appointment to see a doc either. You go there, take a seat - and just wait until you're in line. Can take 30 minutes (i think longest i waited was around 45) - but that's it. Treatment depends on what you have, i don't get what americans think, do you guys suggest that you run around with a broken arm for 3 weeks until you get your xray? oO A lot of Americans think this. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
A lot of Americans should reconsider and start using google then. No offense, but that's just idiotic. edit: not saying btw that you can't have waiting times for more than an hour or two: that can happen if you go without appointment. But i've never, ever had to come back another day when i was sick or injured. I always was seen the same day, and for colds etc got my receipts to turn in at the pharmacy - to then come back 2 weeks later for backup check (that time with appointment then). edit2: that being said, in the UK, it's different. For me here now, i have to call the doctors office at 8 in the morning and get an appointment. | ||
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thePunGun
598 Posts
On April 18 2016 05:46 Slaughter wrote: Nothing will happen if he gets elected. Look at what happened to Obamacare, do you really think he will get any of the ideas he wants as if through congress? He will have to heavily come down or get completely shut down. I don't, but I also didn't think, that congress would vote for iraq back in 2002..so ..nothing's impossible...  | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
the "but europe can do it" argument ignores way too many differences between the US and europe | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On April 18 2016 05:49 Gorsameth wrote: Netherlands here and I have never even had to even wait until the next day to see a doctor if I think I am ill. Treatment takes a little longer depending on how much work it is and if its acute or not. I mean, America is a little bit bigger with a little bit more people our country is fucking tiny, you can drive through our country in time you can't even get out of your state in America. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11714 Posts
And no, "I am never going to be sick or need a doctor in any way" is not a rational way to approach the costs of healthcare for you. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On April 18 2016 05:42 ticklishmusic wrote: we'll feel the bern then we have to wait 5 weeks before we can see a physician to tell us what the problem is That's the kind of thing that doesn't happen in universal healthcare stuff, unless you live in the Soviet Union | ||
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JumboJohnson
537 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11714 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 18 2016 06:15 ticklishmusic wrote: we don't have enough physicians or what we can generically call "medical capacity" as it is the "but europe can do it" argument ignores way too many differences between the US and europe Never said "but europe can do it". What i did say is that "medical capacity" isn't an issue. At all. Not enough docs? Employ more. That's literally the smallest issue to solve. Every single time i hear an american bitching about universal healthcare, i don't see them pointing out differences, but simply an extreme misconception of how it works in other countries. Now don't take it personally, if you enjoy going bankrupt because you lost the lottery of health - or think it's fine that others do, i don't care. If you think that the health of people should be "a business" rather than an obligation to the country, fine too (and it's clearly fine for americans, see privatization of jails, or schools exploiting the living shit out of sportlers). But please, have the balls to say it how it is, and don't make up reasons which are literally solved by getting more educated people. I'm not saying the european system would work in the US, it wouldn't. "Not enough doctors" has zero to do with it. Like, nothing. | ||
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Yurie
12002 Posts
On April 18 2016 06:28 Simberto wrote: I think a lot of americans simply have never experienced a working healthcare system, and thus there is some sort of Stockholms syndrome where they think what they have is good and there must be major problems with other systems that people just don't talk about. For normal stuff it works well. The problems can come for special conditions that aren't acute. Where a queue time only means temporary lowered quality of life, priorities are made and there can be longish queue times for specialists. For example Sweden has a guarantee of 90 days for start of treatment where the majority is nowhere near that time. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On April 18 2016 06:39 m4ini wrote: Never said "but europe can do it". What i did say is that "medical capacity" isn't an issue. At all. Not enough docs? Employ more. That's literally the smallest issue to solve. Every single time i hear an american bitching about universal healthcare, i don't see them pointing out differences, but simply an extreme misconception of how it works in other countries. Now don't take it personally, if you enjoy going bankrupt because you lost the lottery of health - or think it's fine that others do, i don't care. If you think that the health of people should be "a business" rather than an obligation to the country, fine too (and it's clearly fine for americans, see privatization of jails, or schools exploiting the living shit out of sportlers). But please, have the balls to say it how it is, and don't make up reasons which are literally solved by getting more educated people. I'm not saying the european system would work in the US, it wouldn't. "Not enough doctors" has zero to do with it. Like, nothing. the US has approximately 900k physicians so thats a 1:300 ratio or so the AMA is projecting that as boomer MD's retire we will have an estimated shortage of 50k primary care physicians by 2020 or so based on the current volume of care. we graduate about 18k MD's every year, and i'm not sure how many are retiring or going part time. the US medical system sucks. you spend 4 years in undergrad, then you apply, less than 50% of people get in-- getting into med school here is such a pain in the ass that the average first year applies something like 3 times and is 26 years old. then you go to school for another 4 years, have a minimum of 2 years of residency. if you decide to specialize, it might easily be 10 years of graduate + postgrad education. in addition, each year of school is gonna cost something like 50k+, ad scholarship for med school is incredibly rare and while undergrad is going to be a bit better the average freshly minted MD is looking at half a mill in debt for a decade of education now lets say we go universal. this is gonna have several impacts on physicians. first is lowered pay. second is that the new systems ans rules are gonna be a pain in the ass-- i know many physicians already hate the new HITECH rules and every time the ICD codes are refreshed a lot of physicians grumble. some already retire or cut hours b/c of these. under a new system many of them are gonna say fuck that and just quit. others are gonna find some other job b/c a MD can make a shitload in positions that dont require practice. so effectively you put a dent in the existing physician population. students thinking of medicine are gonna be turned off by the fact their salaries are gonna be cut by like 30-40% as well so basically RIP the physician pipeline tossing out a couple more fun facts: the US has a much unhealthier population and is much more spread out so rural care is already pretty shitty. i havent even touched on the logistics of what happens to the insurance co's. or other potential effects. so yeah the euro to US comparison sucks and hopefully i wont have to post on why that is again | ||
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