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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On July 10 2013 09:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +WASHINGTON -- Republicans are making more noise about dropping food stamps from farm legislation that previously failed to pass the House of Representatives because of disagreement over cuts in nutrition assistance.
Roll Call reported Tuesday that a vote could happen as soon as this week, but a spokesman for House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) suggested leaders haven't made up their minds.
"There has been no decision made to schedule a vote on a farm bill, in any form," Cantor spokesman Rory Cooper told HuffPost. Cantor previously hinted that the House leadership was considering splitting the farm legislation.
The farm bill failed last month after Democrats voted against it because they felt its cuts to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program went too far, while conservative Republicans voted nay because the cuts didn't go far enough. Many on both sides also consider its farm subsidies overly generous to agribusiness.
The House GOP could likely pass deeper SNAP cuts without any Democratic support, although it's unclear how such a conservative bill could pass in the Senate. While some of the farm subsidy provisions will expire in the fall without new legislation, food stamps will continue on autopilot, Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack told HuffPost last week. Source Now that, ladies and gentleman, is a great example of governmental waste. Politicians letting ideological leanings supersede pragmatic assessments of impact and priority.
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On July 10 2013 09:37 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 09:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:WASHINGTON -- Republicans are making more noise about dropping food stamps from farm legislation that previously failed to pass the House of Representatives because of disagreement over cuts in nutrition assistance.
Roll Call reported Tuesday that a vote could happen as soon as this week, but a spokesman for House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) suggested leaders haven't made up their minds.
"There has been no decision made to schedule a vote on a farm bill, in any form," Cantor spokesman Rory Cooper told HuffPost. Cantor previously hinted that the House leadership was considering splitting the farm legislation.
The farm bill failed last month after Democrats voted against it because they felt its cuts to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program went too far, while conservative Republicans voted nay because the cuts didn't go far enough. Many on both sides also consider its farm subsidies overly generous to agribusiness.
The House GOP could likely pass deeper SNAP cuts without any Democratic support, although it's unclear how such a conservative bill could pass in the Senate. While some of the farm subsidy provisions will expire in the fall without new legislation, food stamps will continue on autopilot, Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack told HuffPost last week. Source Now that, ladies and gentleman, is a great example of governmental waste. Politicians letting ideological leanings supersede pragmatic assessments of impact and priority. Someone made a pragmatic assessment on the topic? Be still my heart!
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I thought any cuts in a welfare program, once passed, were "pragmatism be damned" unfeeling, racist, callous, bigoted decision-making. No wonder why entitlements are currently 61% of the federal budget! As long as you're spending money, no care is given to its intents. You wanna wage a War on Poverty? If poverty goes up during it, clearly that's no result of the program, but only that you didn't spend enough and couldn't oppose fickle outside pressures. The waste is a disconnect between the stated intentions behind the action and the results of the legislation. In the private sector, donations may be withdrawn if some charitable cause is run by incompetents. In the public sector, you keep on spending and spending and spending. Ignore the SSA Board of Trustees report that they're going broke, any chance to fix it is a chance to trash your opponents as kicking grandma to the curb. It's the rules of political power that protects the waste of millions and billions.
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In the private sector, donations to charity are a function of the generosity of some group; they may or may not exist, they may or may not be sufficient, and they may or may not be consistent. If we're going to generalize "the private sector" and "the public sector" we might as well be accurate.
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On July 10 2013 10:13 Danglars wrote: I thought any cuts in a welfare program, once passed, were "pragmatism be damned" unfeeling, racist, callous, bigoted decision-making. No wonder why entitlements are currently 61% of the federal budget! As long as you're spending money, no care is given to its intents. You wanna wage a War on Poverty? If poverty goes up during it, clearly that's no result of the program, but only that you didn't spend enough and couldn't oppose fickle outside pressures. The waste is a disconnect between the stated intentions behind the action and the results of the legislation. In the private sector, donations may be withdrawn if some charitable cause is run by incompetents. In the public sector, you keep on spending and spending and spending. Ignore the SSA Board of Trustees report that they're going broke, any chance to fix it is a chance to trash your opponents as kicking grandma to the curb. It's the rules of political power that protects the waste of millions and billions.
No, those are pragmatic. Remember that $716 million from medicare or whatever that Obamacare saved?
Cutting off income from lower brackets is not pragmatic either. It's better for the economy to have social safety nets and the a dollar in the lower class pocket is worth more than the upper class pocket.
And maybe they wouldn't be going broke if we actually decided to tax the wealthy and corporations. But nooooooo, that's just unthinkable. Pragmatically, we should have a 73% top marginal tax rate, but who the hell cares about that because that's socialism!
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On July 10 2013 07:36 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 07:13 ziggurat wrote:On July 10 2013 06:31 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 06:28 ziggurat wrote: No one has commented (that I've seen) on Obama's decision to defer that ACA for one year as it affects corporations. It's actually a very interesting issue, because on the face of it the President doesn't have the power to do this. Can you imagine if Romney had won the election, tried and failed to repeal ACA, and then said "oh well I'll just defer the start date"? This entire debacle can be summed up rather nicely with 2 words: partisan process. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Care to elaborate? I'm saying that the Obamacare we ended up with at the end of the day looks nothing like it should have, and this is due in large part to what happens as a result of the partisan process. What are called "concessions" end up being distorting enough to render the original concept unrecognizable. The ACA was written by house democrats and passed in a party line vote. There were no concessions to republicans. It's hard to think of a clearer example of a case where one party is 100% responsible for a shitty piece of legislation.
However this is actually nothing to do with the post that you were responding to. I am really interested to know what people think about Obama's recent decision to announce that the ACA won't take effect for businesses until a year later than originally scheduled. Here are a couple links in case you haven't heard about this.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323823004578591503509555268.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324507404578591671926459776.html
Aside from being (one would think) rather embarrassing for the administration, it also appears that the president doesn't actually have the power to do this under the constitution.
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On July 10 2013 11:35 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 07:36 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 07:13 ziggurat wrote:On July 10 2013 06:31 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 06:28 ziggurat wrote: No one has commented (that I've seen) on Obama's decision to defer that ACA for one year as it affects corporations. It's actually a very interesting issue, because on the face of it the President doesn't have the power to do this. Can you imagine if Romney had won the election, tried and failed to repeal ACA, and then said "oh well I'll just defer the start date"? This entire debacle can be summed up rather nicely with 2 words: partisan process. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Care to elaborate? I'm saying that the Obamacare we ended up with at the end of the day looks nothing like it should have, and this is due in large part to what happens as a result of the partisan process. What are called "concessions" end up being distorting enough to render the original concept unrecognizable. The ACA was written by house democrats and passed in a party line vote. There were no concessions to republicans. It's hard to think of a clearer example of a case where one party is 100% responsible for a shitty piece of legislation. However this is actually nothing to do with the post that you were responding to. I am really interested to know what people think about Obama's recent decision to announce that the ACA won't take effect for businesses until a year later than originally scheduled. Here are a couple links in case you haven't heard about this. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323823004578591503509555268.htmlhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324507404578591671926459776.htmlAside from being (one would think) rather embarrassing for the administration, it also appears that the president doesn't actually have the power to do this under the constitution.
The problem that they were running into is that federal agencies were so far behind in getting things ready for the law, even after 2+ years, that they really didn't have much of a choice. It is not like you can require a company to provide health care to full time employees, but not actually tell them who counts as one of those employees.
As for is it legal? Prolly not. It opens a possibility that a republican president could just dump the whole law, or any law they don't like. On the other hand, who is going to sue? Democrats don't want to go after Obama at all and Republicans like it in both practical and political terms.
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On July 10 2013 11:35 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 07:36 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 07:13 ziggurat wrote:On July 10 2013 06:31 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 06:28 ziggurat wrote: No one has commented (that I've seen) on Obama's decision to defer that ACA for one year as it affects corporations. It's actually a very interesting issue, because on the face of it the President doesn't have the power to do this. Can you imagine if Romney had won the election, tried and failed to repeal ACA, and then said "oh well I'll just defer the start date"? This entire debacle can be summed up rather nicely with 2 words: partisan process. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Care to elaborate? I'm saying that the Obamacare we ended up with at the end of the day looks nothing like it should have, and this is due in large part to what happens as a result of the partisan process. What are called "concessions" end up being distorting enough to render the original concept unrecognizable. The ACA was written by house democrats and passed in a party line vote. There were no concessions to republicans. It's hard to think of a clearer example of a case where one party is 100% responsible for a shitty piece of legislation. However this is actually nothing to do with the post that you were responding to. I am really interested to know what people think about Obama's recent decision to announce that the ACA won't take effect for businesses until a year later than originally scheduled. Here are a couple links in case you haven't heard about this. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323823004578591503509555268.htmlhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324507404578591671926459776.htmlAside from being (one would think) rather embarrassing for the administration, it also appears that the president doesn't actually have the power to do this under the constitution. lol, that is some amazing revisionist history at work. In fact, your willingness to so actively ignore actual history in pursuit of placing blame on Democrats speaks to the very thing I pointed to, that being partisan politics.
It is important to note that the abbreviation ACA is deceiving, as it is the name for the House bill that was eventually scrapped while also being the casual abbreviation for the PPACA, the senate bill that would replace the House bill and go on to become Obamacare.
Here, you should read this, as it seems you have absolutely no idea how Obamacare came into being and yet seem to have strong opinions on the subject. I've highlighted the important parts in case you can't be bothered to read everything, but this is actually one of the better written articles on wikipedia, so I highly recommend it if one is looking to get a good understanding.
The plan that ultimately became the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act consists of a combination of measures to control health care costs and an insurance expansion thought public insurance (expanded Medicaid eligibility and Medicare coverage expansion) and subsidized, regulated private insurance. The latter of these ideas forms the core of the law's insurance expansion, and it has been included in bipartisan reform proposals in the past. In particular, the idea of an individual mandate coupled with subsidies for private insurance, as an alternative to public insurance, was considered a way to get Universal Health Insurance that could win the support of the Senate. Many healthcare policy experts have pointed out that the individual mandate requirement to buy health insurance was contained in many previous proposals by Republicans for healthcare legislation, going back as far as 1989, when it was initially proposed by the politically conservative Heritage Foundation as an alternative to single-payer health care.[157] The idea of an individual mandate was championed by Republican politicians as a market-based approach to health-care reform, on the basis of individual responsibility: because the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA), passed in 1986 by a bipartisan Congress and signed by Ronald Reagan, requires any hospital participating in Medicare (nearly all do) to provide emergency care to anyone who needs it, the government often indirectly bore the cost of those without the ability to pay.[158][159][160]
When, in 1993, President Bill Clinton proposed a health-care reform bill which included a mandate for employers to provide health insurance to all employees through a regulated marketplace of health maintenance organizations, Republican Senators proposed a bill that would have required individuals, and not employers, to buy insurance, as an alternative to Clinton's plan.[159] Ultimately the Clinton plan failed amid concerns that it was overly complex or unrealistic, and in the face of an unprecedented barrage of negative advertising funded by politically conservative groups and the health-insurance industry.[161] (After failing to obtain a comprehensive reform of the health care system, Clinton did however negotiate a compromise with the 105th Congress to instead enact the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) in 1997).
The 1993 Republican alternative, introduced by Senator John Chafee (R-RI) as the Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act, contained a "Universal Coverage" requirement with a penalty for non-compliance.[162][163] Advocates for the 1993 bill which contained the individual mandate included prominent Republicans who today oppose the mandate, such as Orrin Hatch (R-UT), Charles Grassley (R-IA), Bob Bennett (R-UT), and Christopher Bond (R-MO).[164][165] Of the 43 Republicans Senators from 1993, almost half - 20 out of 43 - supported the HEART Act.[157][166] And in 1994 Senator Don Nickles (R-OK) introduced the Consumer Choice Health Security Act which also contained an individual mandate with a penalty provision[167] - however, subsequently, he did remove the mandate from the act after introduction stating that they had decided "that government should not compel people to buy health insurance."[168] At the time of these proposals, Republicans did not raise constitutional issues with the mandate; Mark Pauly, who helped develop a proposal that included an individual mandate for George H.W. Bush, remarked, "I don’t remember that being raised at all. The way it was viewed by the Congressional Budget Office in 1994 was, effectively, as a tax... So I’ve been surprised by that argument."[157]
An individual health-insurance mandate was also enacted at the state-level in Massachusetts: In 2006, Republican Mitt Romney, then governor of Massachusetts, signed an insurance expansion bill with an individual mandate into law with strong bipartisan support (including that of Ted Kennedy (D-MA)). Romney's success in installing an individual mandate in Massachusetts was at first lauded by Republicans. During Romney's 2008 Presidential campaign, Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC) praised Romney's ability to "take some good conservative ideas, like private health insurance, and apply them to the need to have everyone insured." Romney himself said of the individual mandate: "I'm proud of what we've done. If Massachusetts succeeds in implementing it, then that will be the model for the nation."[169]
The following year (2007), Senators Bob Bennett (R-UT) and Ron Wyden (D-OR) introduced the Healthy Americans Act, a bill that also featured an individual mandate, and which attracted bipartisan support.[160][169] Among the Republican co-sponsors still in Congress during the health care debate: Senators Chuck Grassley (R-IA), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Bob Bennett (R-UT), Mike Crapo (R-ID), Bob Corker (R-TN), Lamar Alexander (R-TN), and Arlen Specter (R-PA).[170][171]
Given the history of bipartisan support for the idea, and its track record in Massachusetts; by 2008 Democrats were considering it as a basis for comprehensive, national health care reform: Experts have pointed out that the legislation that eventually emerged from Congress in 2009 and 2010 bears many similarities to the 2007 bill;[163] and that it was deliberately patterned after former Republican Governor of Massachusetts Mitt Romney's state healthcare plan (which contains an individual mandate).[172] Jonathan Gruber, a key architect of the Massachusetts reform, advised the Clinton and Obama Presidential campaigns on their health care proposals, served as a technical consultant to the Obama Administration, and helped Congress draft the ACA.
Health care reform was a major topic of discussion during the 2008 Democratic presidential primaries. As the race narrowed, attention focused on the plans presented by the two leading candidates, New York Senator Hillary Clinton and the eventual nominee, Illinois Senator Barack Obama. Each candidate proposed a plan to cover the approximately 45 million Americans estimated to be without health insurance at some point during each year. One point of difference between the plans was that Clinton's plan was to require all Americans to obtain coverage (in effect, an individual health insurance mandate), while Obama's was to provide a subsidy but not create a direct requirement. During the general election campaign between Obama and the Republican nominee, Arizona Senator John McCain, Obama said that fixing health care would be one of his top four priorities if he won the presidency.[173]
After his inauguration, Obama announced to a joint session of Congress in February 2009 that he would begin working with Congress to construct a plan for health care reform.[174] On March 5, 2009, Obama formally began the reform process and held a conference with industry leaders to discuss reform.[175] By July, a series of bills were approved by committees within the House of Representatives.[176] On the Senate side, beginning June 17, 2009, and extending through September 14, 2009, three Democratic and three Republican Senate Finance Committee Members met for a series of 31 meetings to discuss the development of a health care reform bill. Over the course of the next three months, this group, Senators Max Baucus (D-MT), Chuck Grassley (R-IA), Kent Conrad (D-ND), Olympia Snowe (R-ME), Jeff Bingaman (D-NM), and Mike Enzi (R-WY), met for more than 60 hours, and the principles that they discussed (in conjunction with the other Committees) became the foundation of the Senate's health care reform bill.[177] The meetings were held in public and broadcast by C-SPAN and can be seen on the C-SPAN web site[178] or at the Committee's own web site.[179]
With universal health insurance as one of the stated goals of the Obama Administration, Congressional Democrats and health policy experts like Jonathan Gruber and David Cutler argued that guaranteed issue would require both a (partial) community rating and an individual health insurance mandate to prevent either adverse selection and/or free riding from creating an insurance death spiral.[21] They convinced Obama that this was necessary, which persuaded the Administration to accept Congressional proposals that included a mandate.[22] This approach was preferred because the President and Congressional leaders concluded that more liberal plans (such as Medicare-for-all) could not win filibuster-proof support in the Senate. By deliberately drawing on bipartisan ideas - the same basic outline was supported by former Senate Majority Leaders Howard Baker (R-TN), Bob Dole (R-KS), Tom Daschle (D-SD) and George Mitchell (D-ME) - the bill's drafters hoped to increase the chances of getting the necessary votes for passage.[180][181][182]
However, following the adoption of an individual mandate as a central component of the proposed reforms by Democrats, Republicans began to oppose the mandate and threaten to filibuster any bills that contained it.[157] Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), who lead the Republican Congressional strategy in responding to the bill, calculated that Republicans should not support the bill, and worked to keep party discipline and prevent defections:[182] “ It was absolutely critical that everybody be together because if the proponents of the bill were able to say it was bipartisan, it tended to convey to the public that this is O.K., they must have figured it out.[183] ”
Republican Senators (including those who had supported previous bills with a similar mandate) began to describe the mandate as "unconstitutional". Writing in The New Yorker, Ezra Klein stated that "the end result was... a policy that once enjoyed broad support within the Republican Party suddenly faced unified opposition."[160] The New York Times subsequently noted: "It can be difficult to remember now, given the ferocity with which many Republicans assail it as an attack on freedom, but the provision in President Obama's health care law requiring all Americans to buy health insurance has its roots in conservative thinking."[159][166]
The reform negotiations also attracted a great deal of attention from lobbyists,[184] including deals among certain lobbies and the advocates of the law to win the support of groups who had opposed past reform efforts, such as in 1993.[185][186] The Sunlight Foundation documented many of the reported ties between "the healthcare lobbyist complex" and politicians in both major parties.[187]
During the August 2009 summer congressional recess, many members went back to their districts and entertained town hall meetings to solicit public opinion on the proposals. Over the recess, the Tea Party movement organized protests and many conservative groups and individuals targeted congressional town hall meetings to voice their opposition to the proposed reform bills.[175] There were also many threats made against members of Congress over the course of the Congressional debate, and many were assigned extra protection.[188]
To maintain the progress of the legislative process, when Congress returned from recess, in September 2009 President Obama delivered a speech to a joint session of Congress supporting the ongoing Congressional negotiations, to re-emphasize his commitment to reform and again outline his proposals.[189] In it he acknowledged the polarization of the debate, and quoted a letter from the late-Senator Ted Kennedy urging on reform: "what we face is above all a moral issue; that at stake are not just the details of policy, but fundamental principles of social justice and the character of our country."[190] On November 7, the House of Representatives passed the Affordable Health Care for America Act on a 220–215 vote and forwarded it to the Senate for passage.[175]
With Democrats having lost a filibuster-proof supermajority in the Senate, but having already passed the Senate bill with 60 votes on December 23; the most viable option for the proponents of comprehensive reform was for the House to abandon its own health reform bill, the Affordable Health Care for America Act, and pass the Senate's bill (The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act) instead. Various health policy experts encouraged the House to pass the Senate version of the bill.[214] However, House Democrats were not happy with the content of the Senate bill and had expected to be able to negotiate changes in a (House-Senate) Conference before passing a final bill. With that option off the table (as any bill that emerged from Conference that differed from the Senate bill would have to be passed in the Senate over another Republican filibuster); the House Democrats agreed to pass the Senate bill on condition that it be amended by a subsequent bill (ultimately the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act), which could be passed via the reconciliation process.[211][215] Unlike the regular order, reconciliation is not subject to a filibuster (which requires 60 votes to break), but the process is limited to budget changes, which is why it was never able to be used to pass a comprehensive reform bill (with its inherently non-budgetary regulations as in the ACA) in the first place.[216] Whereas the already passed Senate bill could not have been put through reconciliation, most of House Democrats' demands were budgetary: "these changes -- higher subsidy levels, different kinds of taxes to pay for them, nixing the Nebraska Medicaid deal -- mainly involve taxes and spending. In other words, they're exactly the kinds of policies that are well-suited for reconciliation."[215]
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
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Well farv Abraham Lincoln once said that he preferred to know more today than he knew yesterday, and more tomorrow than today. I don't think that the idea ever had much popularity with the base of the conservative faction and obviously it has gone out of favor in the intellectual circles.
I blame George W. Bush, if he hadn't murdered John Kerry with "I was for it before I was against it" changing your position wouldn't be such a sin for a politician today. Of course Kerry was and is a bumbling Brahmin.
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On July 10 2013 06:20 Klondikebar wrote:Like...seriously, call a doctor's office or hospital and ask how much you'll pay out of pocket for a given procedure. It's disgustingly hard to get an accurate number.
I came across this article which I though was pretty interesting. I like this fixed price approach a lot better than going to the hospital and having no idea what anything costs until you get the bill.
http://kfor.com/2013/07/08/okc-hospital-posting-surgery-prices-online/
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On July 10 2013 13:18 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 11:35 ziggurat wrote:On July 10 2013 07:36 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 07:13 ziggurat wrote:On July 10 2013 06:31 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 06:28 ziggurat wrote: No one has commented (that I've seen) on Obama's decision to defer that ACA for one year as it affects corporations. It's actually a very interesting issue, because on the face of it the President doesn't have the power to do this. Can you imagine if Romney had won the election, tried and failed to repeal ACA, and then said "oh well I'll just defer the start date"? This entire debacle can be summed up rather nicely with 2 words: partisan process. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Care to elaborate? I'm saying that the Obamacare we ended up with at the end of the day looks nothing like it should have, and this is due in large part to what happens as a result of the partisan process. What are called "concessions" end up being distorting enough to render the original concept unrecognizable. The ACA was written by house democrats and passed in a party line vote. There were no concessions to republicans. It's hard to think of a clearer example of a case where one party is 100% responsible for a shitty piece of legislation. However this is actually nothing to do with the post that you were responding to. I am really interested to know what people think about Obama's recent decision to announce that the ACA won't take effect for businesses until a year later than originally scheduled. Here are a couple links in case you haven't heard about this. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323823004578591503509555268.htmlhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324507404578591671926459776.htmlAside from being (one would think) rather embarrassing for the administration, it also appears that the president doesn't actually have the power to do this under the constitution. lol, that is some amazing revisionist history at work. In fact, your willingness to so actively ignore actual history in pursuit of placing blame on Democrats speaks to the very thing I pointed to, that being partisan politics. It is important to note that the abbreviation ACA is deceiving, as it is the name for the House bill that was eventually scrapped while also being the casual abbreviation for the PPACA, the senate bill that would replace the House bill and go on to become Obamacare. Here, you should read this, as it seems you have absolutely no idea how Obamacare came into being and yet seem to have strong opinions on the subject. I've highlighted the important parts in case you can't be bothered to read everything, but this is actually one of the better written articles on wikipedia, so I highly recommend it if one is looking to get a good understanding. Show nested quote +The plan that ultimately became the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act consists of a combination of measures to control health care costs and an insurance expansion thought public insurance (expanded Medicaid eligibility and Medicare coverage expansion) and subsidized, regulated private insurance. The latter of these ideas forms the core of the law's insurance expansion, and it has been included in bipartisan reform proposals in the past. In particular, the idea of an individual mandate coupled with subsidies for private insurance, as an alternative to public insurance, was considered a way to get Universal Health Insurance that could win the support of the Senate. Many healthcare policy experts have pointed out that the individual mandate requirement to buy health insurance was contained in many previous proposals by Republicans for healthcare legislation, going back as far as 1989, when it was initially proposed by the politically conservative Heritage Foundation as an alternative to single-payer health care.[157] The idea of an individual mandate was championed by Republican politicians as a market-based approach to health-care reform, on the basis of individual responsibility: because the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA), passed in 1986 by a bipartisan Congress and signed by Ronald Reagan, requires any hospital participating in Medicare (nearly all do) to provide emergency care to anyone who needs it, the government often indirectly bore the cost of those without the ability to pay.[158][159][160]
When, in 1993, President Bill Clinton proposed a health-care reform bill which included a mandate for employers to provide health insurance to all employees through a regulated marketplace of health maintenance organizations, Republican Senators proposed a bill that would have required individuals, and not employers, to buy insurance, as an alternative to Clinton's plan.[159] Ultimately the Clinton plan failed amid concerns that it was overly complex or unrealistic, and in the face of an unprecedented barrage of negative advertising funded by politically conservative groups and the health-insurance industry.[161] (After failing to obtain a comprehensive reform of the health care system, Clinton did however negotiate a compromise with the 105th Congress to instead enact the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) in 1997).
The 1993 Republican alternative, introduced by Senator John Chafee (R-RI) as the Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act, contained a "Universal Coverage" requirement with a penalty for non-compliance.[162][163] Advocates for the 1993 bill which contained the individual mandate included prominent Republicans who today oppose the mandate, such as Orrin Hatch (R-UT), Charles Grassley (R-IA), Bob Bennett (R-UT), and Christopher Bond (R-MO).[164][165] Of the 43 Republicans Senators from 1993, almost half - 20 out of 43 - supported the HEART Act.[157][166] And in 1994 Senator Don Nickles (R-OK) introduced the Consumer Choice Health Security Act which also contained an individual mandate with a penalty provision[167] - however, subsequently, he did remove the mandate from the act after introduction stating that they had decided "that government should not compel people to buy health insurance."[168] At the time of these proposals, Republicans did not raise constitutional issues with the mandate; Mark Pauly, who helped develop a proposal that included an individual mandate for George H.W. Bush, remarked, "I don’t remember that being raised at all. The way it was viewed by the Congressional Budget Office in 1994 was, effectively, as a tax... So I’ve been surprised by that argument."[157]
An individual health-insurance mandate was also enacted at the state-level in Massachusetts: In 2006, Republican Mitt Romney, then governor of Massachusetts, signed an insurance expansion bill with an individual mandate into law with strong bipartisan support (including that of Ted Kennedy (D-MA)). Romney's success in installing an individual mandate in Massachusetts was at first lauded by Republicans. During Romney's 2008 Presidential campaign, Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC) praised Romney's ability to "take some good conservative ideas, like private health insurance, and apply them to the need to have everyone insured." Romney himself said of the individual mandate: "I'm proud of what we've done. If Massachusetts succeeds in implementing it, then that will be the model for the nation."[169]
The following year (2007), Senators Bob Bennett (R-UT) and Ron Wyden (D-OR) introduced the Healthy Americans Act, a bill that also featured an individual mandate, and which attracted bipartisan support.[160][169] Among the Republican co-sponsors still in Congress during the health care debate: Senators Chuck Grassley (R-IA), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Bob Bennett (R-UT), Mike Crapo (R-ID), Bob Corker (R-TN), Lamar Alexander (R-TN), and Arlen Specter (R-PA).[170][171]
Given the history of bipartisan support for the idea, and its track record in Massachusetts; by 2008 Democrats were considering it as a basis for comprehensive, national health care reform: Experts have pointed out that the legislation that eventually emerged from Congress in 2009 and 2010 bears many similarities to the 2007 bill;[163] and that it was deliberately patterned after former Republican Governor of Massachusetts Mitt Romney's state healthcare plan (which contains an individual mandate).[172] Jonathan Gruber, a key architect of the Massachusetts reform, advised the Clinton and Obama Presidential campaigns on their health care proposals, served as a technical consultant to the Obama Administration, and helped Congress draft the ACA.
Health care reform was a major topic of discussion during the 2008 Democratic presidential primaries. As the race narrowed, attention focused on the plans presented by the two leading candidates, New York Senator Hillary Clinton and the eventual nominee, Illinois Senator Barack Obama. Each candidate proposed a plan to cover the approximately 45 million Americans estimated to be without health insurance at some point during each year. One point of difference between the plans was that Clinton's plan was to require all Americans to obtain coverage (in effect, an individual health insurance mandate), while Obama's was to provide a subsidy but not create a direct requirement. During the general election campaign between Obama and the Republican nominee, Arizona Senator John McCain, Obama said that fixing health care would be one of his top four priorities if he won the presidency.[173]
After his inauguration, Obama announced to a joint session of Congress in February 2009 that he would begin working with Congress to construct a plan for health care reform.[174] On March 5, 2009, Obama formally began the reform process and held a conference with industry leaders to discuss reform.[175] By July, a series of bills were approved by committees within the House of Representatives.[176] On the Senate side, beginning June 17, 2009, and extending through September 14, 2009, three Democratic and three Republican Senate Finance Committee Members met for a series of 31 meetings to discuss the development of a health care reform bill. Over the course of the next three months, this group, Senators Max Baucus (D-MT), Chuck Grassley (R-IA), Kent Conrad (D-ND), Olympia Snowe (R-ME), Jeff Bingaman (D-NM), and Mike Enzi (R-WY), met for more than 60 hours, and the principles that they discussed (in conjunction with the other Committees) became the foundation of the Senate's health care reform bill.[177] The meetings were held in public and broadcast by C-SPAN and can be seen on the C-SPAN web site[178] or at the Committee's own web site.[179]
With universal health insurance as one of the stated goals of the Obama Administration, Congressional Democrats and health policy experts like Jonathan Gruber and David Cutler argued that guaranteed issue would require both a (partial) community rating and an individual health insurance mandate to prevent either adverse selection and/or free riding from creating an insurance death spiral.[21] They convinced Obama that this was necessary, which persuaded the Administration to accept Congressional proposals that included a mandate.[22] This approach was preferred because the President and Congressional leaders concluded that more liberal plans (such as Medicare-for-all) could not win filibuster-proof support in the Senate. By deliberately drawing on bipartisan ideas - the same basic outline was supported by former Senate Majority Leaders Howard Baker (R-TN), Bob Dole (R-KS), Tom Daschle (D-SD) and George Mitchell (D-ME) - the bill's drafters hoped to increase the chances of getting the necessary votes for passage.[180][181][182]
However, following the adoption of an individual mandate as a central component of the proposed reforms by Democrats, Republicans began to oppose the mandate and threaten to filibuster any bills that contained it.[157] Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), who lead the Republican Congressional strategy in responding to the bill, calculated that Republicans should not support the bill, and worked to keep party discipline and prevent defections:[182] “ It was absolutely critical that everybody be together because if the proponents of the bill were able to say it was bipartisan, it tended to convey to the public that this is O.K., they must have figured it out.[183] ”
Republican Senators (including those who had supported previous bills with a similar mandate) began to describe the mandate as "unconstitutional". Writing in The New Yorker, Ezra Klein stated that "the end result was... a policy that once enjoyed broad support within the Republican Party suddenly faced unified opposition."[160] The New York Times subsequently noted: "It can be difficult to remember now, given the ferocity with which many Republicans assail it as an attack on freedom, but the provision in President Obama's health care law requiring all Americans to buy health insurance has its roots in conservative thinking."[159][166]
The reform negotiations also attracted a great deal of attention from lobbyists,[184] including deals among certain lobbies and the advocates of the law to win the support of groups who had opposed past reform efforts, such as in 1993.[185][186] The Sunlight Foundation documented many of the reported ties between "the healthcare lobbyist complex" and politicians in both major parties.[187]
During the August 2009 summer congressional recess, many members went back to their districts and entertained town hall meetings to solicit public opinion on the proposals. Over the recess, the Tea Party movement organized protests and many conservative groups and individuals targeted congressional town hall meetings to voice their opposition to the proposed reform bills.[175] There were also many threats made against members of Congress over the course of the Congressional debate, and many were assigned extra protection.[188]
To maintain the progress of the legislative process, when Congress returned from recess, in September 2009 President Obama delivered a speech to a joint session of Congress supporting the ongoing Congressional negotiations, to re-emphasize his commitment to reform and again outline his proposals.[189] In it he acknowledged the polarization of the debate, and quoted a letter from the late-Senator Ted Kennedy urging on reform: "what we face is above all a moral issue; that at stake are not just the details of policy, but fundamental principles of social justice and the character of our country."[190] On November 7, the House of Representatives passed the Affordable Health Care for America Act on a 220–215 vote and forwarded it to the Senate for passage.[175]
With Democrats having lost a filibuster-proof supermajority in the Senate, but having already passed the Senate bill with 60 votes on December 23; the most viable option for the proponents of comprehensive reform was for the House to abandon its own health reform bill, the Affordable Health Care for America Act, and pass the Senate's bill (The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act) instead. Various health policy experts encouraged the House to pass the Senate version of the bill.[214] However, House Democrats were not happy with the content of the Senate bill and had expected to be able to negotiate changes in a (House-Senate) Conference before passing a final bill. With that option off the table (as any bill that emerged from Conference that differed from the Senate bill would have to be passed in the Senate over another Republican filibuster); the House Democrats agreed to pass the Senate bill on condition that it be amended by a subsequent bill (ultimately the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act), which could be passed via the reconciliation process.[211][215] Unlike the regular order, reconciliation is not subject to a filibuster (which requires 60 votes to break), but the process is limited to budget changes, which is why it was never able to be used to pass a comprehensive reform bill (with its inherently non-budgetary regulations as in the ACA) in the first place.[216] Whereas the already passed Senate bill could not have been put through reconciliation, most of House Democrats' demands were budgetary: "these changes -- higher subsidy levels, different kinds of taxes to pay for them, nixing the Nebraska Medicaid deal -- mainly involve taxes and spending. In other words, they're exactly the kinds of policies that are well-suited for reconciliation."[215] Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act I'm not sure how you think anything in your quote contradicts anything I said. /shrug
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On July 10 2013 13:44 DeepElemBlues wrote: Well farv Abraham Lincoln once said that he preferred to know more today than he knew yesterday, and more tomorrow than today. I don't think that the idea ever had much popularity with the base of the conservative faction and obviously it has gone out of favor in the intellectual circles.
I blame George W. Bush, if he hadn't murdered John Kerry with "I was for it before I was against it" changing your position wouldn't be such a sin for a politician today. Of course Kerry was and is a bumbling Brahmin.
huh?
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Here's a news story that will make us get along, State corruption:
RICHMOND — A prominent political donor gave $70,000 to a corporation owned by Virginia Gov. Robert F. McDonnell and his sister last year, and the governor did not disclose the money as a gift or loan, according to people with knowledge of the payments.
The donor, wealthy businessman Jonnie R. Williams Sr., also gave a previously unknown $50,000 check to the governor’s wife, Maureen, in 2011, the people said.
The money to the corporation and Maureen McDonnell brings to $145,000 the amount Williams gave to assist the McDonnell family in 2011 and 2012 — funds that are now at the center of federal and state investigations.
Williams, the chief executive of dietary supplement manufacturer Star Scientific Inc., also provided a $10,000 check in December as a present to McDonnell’s eldest daughter, Jeanine, intended to help defray costs at her May 2013 wedding, the people said.
Virginia’s first family already is under intense scrutiny for accepting $15,000 from the same chief executive to pay for the catering at the June 2011 wedding of Cailin McDonnell at the Executive Mansion.
All the payments came as McDonnell and his wife took steps to promote the donor’s company and its products.
Source
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On July 10 2013 10:13 Danglars wrote: I thought any cuts in a welfare program, once passed, were "pragmatism be damned" unfeeling, racist, callous, bigoted decision-making. No wonder why entitlements are currently 61% of the federal budget! As long as you're spending money, no care is given to its intents. You wanna wage a War on Poverty? If poverty goes up during it, clearly that's no result of the program, but only that you didn't spend enough and couldn't oppose fickle outside pressures. The waste is a disconnect between the stated intentions behind the action and the results of the legislation. In the private sector, donations may be withdrawn if some charitable cause is run by incompetents. In the public sector, you keep on spending and spending and spending. Ignore the SSA Board of Trustees report that they're going broke, any chance to fix it is a chance to trash your opponents as kicking grandma to the curb. It's the rules of political power that protects the waste of millions and billions.
Is this post itself supposed to be some satirical send-up of the sort of partisanship you are decrying? Social Security is simply money given to seniors: how exactly can it be wasted? And Medicare and Medicaid are run much more efficiently than most private insurance. The biggest waste in entitlements is probably in Social Security Disability Insurance, which unlike SS in general really is quite tight on money, but it still represents a pretty small fraction of overall entitlements.
Also SSDI isn't part of the discretionary budget, just as all the other aforementioned programs aren't. SSI is; is that what you're talking about? It's even less money than SSDI.
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On July 10 2013 13:18 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 11:35 ziggurat wrote:On July 10 2013 07:36 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 07:13 ziggurat wrote:On July 10 2013 06:31 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 06:28 ziggurat wrote: No one has commented (that I've seen) on Obama's decision to defer that ACA for one year as it affects corporations. It's actually a very interesting issue, because on the face of it the President doesn't have the power to do this. Can you imagine if Romney had won the election, tried and failed to repeal ACA, and then said "oh well I'll just defer the start date"? This entire debacle can be summed up rather nicely with 2 words: partisan process. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Care to elaborate? I'm saying that the Obamacare we ended up with at the end of the day looks nothing like it should have, and this is due in large part to what happens as a result of the partisan process. What are called "concessions" end up being distorting enough to render the original concept unrecognizable. The ACA was written by house democrats and passed in a party line vote. There were no concessions to republicans. It's hard to think of a clearer example of a case where one party is 100% responsible for a shitty piece of legislation. However this is actually nothing to do with the post that you were responding to. I am really interested to know what people think about Obama's recent decision to announce that the ACA won't take effect for businesses until a year later than originally scheduled. Here are a couple links in case you haven't heard about this. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323823004578591503509555268.htmlhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324507404578591671926459776.htmlAside from being (one would think) rather embarrassing for the administration, it also appears that the president doesn't actually have the power to do this under the constitution. lol, that is some amazing revisionist history at work. In fact, your willingness to so actively ignore actual history in pursuit of placing blame on Democrats speaks to the very thing I pointed to, that being partisan politics. It is important to note that the abbreviation ACA is deceiving, as it is the name for the House bill that was eventually scrapped while also being the casual abbreviation for the PPACA, the senate bill that would replace the House bill and go on to become Obamacare. Here, you should read this, as it seems you have absolutely no idea how Obamacare came into being and yet seem to have strong opinions on the subject. I've highlighted the important parts in case you can't be bothered to read everything, but this is actually one of the better written articles on wikipedia, so I highly recommend it if one is looking to get a good understanding. Show nested quote +The plan that ultimately became the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act consists of a combination of measures to control health care costs and an insurance expansion thought public insurance (expanded Medicaid eligibility and Medicare coverage expansion) and subsidized, regulated private insurance. The latter of these ideas forms the core of the law's insurance expansion, and it has been included in bipartisan reform proposals in the past. In particular, the idea of an individual mandate coupled with subsidies for private insurance, as an alternative to public insurance, was considered a way to get Universal Health Insurance that could win the support of the Senate. Many healthcare policy experts have pointed out that the individual mandate requirement to buy health insurance was contained in many previous proposals by Republicans for healthcare legislation, going back as far as 1989, when it was initially proposed by the politically conservative Heritage Foundation as an alternative to single-payer health care.[157] The idea of an individual mandate was championed by Republican politicians as a market-based approach to health-care reform, on the basis of individual responsibility: because the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA), passed in 1986 by a bipartisan Congress and signed by Ronald Reagan, requires any hospital participating in Medicare (nearly all do) to provide emergency care to anyone who needs it, the government often indirectly bore the cost of those without the ability to pay.[158][159][160]
When, in 1993, President Bill Clinton proposed a health-care reform bill which included a mandate for employers to provide health insurance to all employees through a regulated marketplace of health maintenance organizations, Republican Senators proposed a bill that would have required individuals, and not employers, to buy insurance, as an alternative to Clinton's plan.[159] Ultimately the Clinton plan failed amid concerns that it was overly complex or unrealistic, and in the face of an unprecedented barrage of negative advertising funded by politically conservative groups and the health-insurance industry.[161] (After failing to obtain a comprehensive reform of the health care system, Clinton did however negotiate a compromise with the 105th Congress to instead enact the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) in 1997).
The 1993 Republican alternative, introduced by Senator John Chafee (R-RI) as the Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act, contained a "Universal Coverage" requirement with a penalty for non-compliance.[162][163] Advocates for the 1993 bill which contained the individual mandate included prominent Republicans who today oppose the mandate, such as Orrin Hatch (R-UT), Charles Grassley (R-IA), Bob Bennett (R-UT), and Christopher Bond (R-MO).[164][165] Of the 43 Republicans Senators from 1993, almost half - 20 out of 43 - supported the HEART Act.[157][166] And in 1994 Senator Don Nickles (R-OK) introduced the Consumer Choice Health Security Act which also contained an individual mandate with a penalty provision[167] - however, subsequently, he did remove the mandate from the act after introduction stating that they had decided "that government should not compel people to buy health insurance."[168] At the time of these proposals, Republicans did not raise constitutional issues with the mandate; Mark Pauly, who helped develop a proposal that included an individual mandate for George H.W. Bush, remarked, "I don’t remember that being raised at all. The way it was viewed by the Congressional Budget Office in 1994 was, effectively, as a tax... So I’ve been surprised by that argument."[157]
An individual health-insurance mandate was also enacted at the state-level in Massachusetts: In 2006, Republican Mitt Romney, then governor of Massachusetts, signed an insurance expansion bill with an individual mandate into law with strong bipartisan support (including that of Ted Kennedy (D-MA)). Romney's success in installing an individual mandate in Massachusetts was at first lauded by Republicans. During Romney's 2008 Presidential campaign, Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC) praised Romney's ability to "take some good conservative ideas, like private health insurance, and apply them to the need to have everyone insured." Romney himself said of the individual mandate: "I'm proud of what we've done. If Massachusetts succeeds in implementing it, then that will be the model for the nation."[169]
The following year (2007), Senators Bob Bennett (R-UT) and Ron Wyden (D-OR) introduced the Healthy Americans Act, a bill that also featured an individual mandate, and which attracted bipartisan support.[160][169] Among the Republican co-sponsors still in Congress during the health care debate: Senators Chuck Grassley (R-IA), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Bob Bennett (R-UT), Mike Crapo (R-ID), Bob Corker (R-TN), Lamar Alexander (R-TN), and Arlen Specter (R-PA).[170][171]
Given the history of bipartisan support for the idea, and its track record in Massachusetts; by 2008 Democrats were considering it as a basis for comprehensive, national health care reform: Experts have pointed out that the legislation that eventually emerged from Congress in 2009 and 2010 bears many similarities to the 2007 bill;[163] and that it was deliberately patterned after former Republican Governor of Massachusetts Mitt Romney's state healthcare plan (which contains an individual mandate).[172] Jonathan Gruber, a key architect of the Massachusetts reform, advised the Clinton and Obama Presidential campaigns on their health care proposals, served as a technical consultant to the Obama Administration, and helped Congress draft the ACA.
Health care reform was a major topic of discussion during the 2008 Democratic presidential primaries. As the race narrowed, attention focused on the plans presented by the two leading candidates, New York Senator Hillary Clinton and the eventual nominee, Illinois Senator Barack Obama. Each candidate proposed a plan to cover the approximately 45 million Americans estimated to be without health insurance at some point during each year. One point of difference between the plans was that Clinton's plan was to require all Americans to obtain coverage (in effect, an individual health insurance mandate), while Obama's was to provide a subsidy but not create a direct requirement. During the general election campaign between Obama and the Republican nominee, Arizona Senator John McCain, Obama said that fixing health care would be one of his top four priorities if he won the presidency.[173]
After his inauguration, Obama announced to a joint session of Congress in February 2009 that he would begin working with Congress to construct a plan for health care reform.[174] On March 5, 2009, Obama formally began the reform process and held a conference with industry leaders to discuss reform.[175] By July, a series of bills were approved by committees within the House of Representatives.[176] On the Senate side, beginning June 17, 2009, and extending through September 14, 2009, three Democratic and three Republican Senate Finance Committee Members met for a series of 31 meetings to discuss the development of a health care reform bill. Over the course of the next three months, this group, Senators Max Baucus (D-MT), Chuck Grassley (R-IA), Kent Conrad (D-ND), Olympia Snowe (R-ME), Jeff Bingaman (D-NM), and Mike Enzi (R-WY), met for more than 60 hours, and the principles that they discussed (in conjunction with the other Committees) became the foundation of the Senate's health care reform bill.[177] The meetings were held in public and broadcast by C-SPAN and can be seen on the C-SPAN web site[178] or at the Committee's own web site.[179]
With universal health insurance as one of the stated goals of the Obama Administration, Congressional Democrats and health policy experts like Jonathan Gruber and David Cutler argued that guaranteed issue would require both a (partial) community rating and an individual health insurance mandate to prevent either adverse selection and/or free riding from creating an insurance death spiral.[21] They convinced Obama that this was necessary, which persuaded the Administration to accept Congressional proposals that included a mandate.[22] This approach was preferred because the President and Congressional leaders concluded that more liberal plans (such as Medicare-for-all) could not win filibuster-proof support in the Senate. By deliberately drawing on bipartisan ideas - the same basic outline was supported by former Senate Majority Leaders Howard Baker (R-TN), Bob Dole (R-KS), Tom Daschle (D-SD) and George Mitchell (D-ME) - the bill's drafters hoped to increase the chances of getting the necessary votes for passage.[180][181][182]
However, following the adoption of an individual mandate as a central component of the proposed reforms by Democrats, Republicans began to oppose the mandate and threaten to filibuster any bills that contained it.[157] Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), who lead the Republican Congressional strategy in responding to the bill, calculated that Republicans should not support the bill, and worked to keep party discipline and prevent defections:[182] “ It was absolutely critical that everybody be together because if the proponents of the bill were able to say it was bipartisan, it tended to convey to the public that this is O.K., they must have figured it out.[183] ”
Republican Senators (including those who had supported previous bills with a similar mandate) began to describe the mandate as "unconstitutional". Writing in The New Yorker, Ezra Klein stated that "the end result was... a policy that once enjoyed broad support within the Republican Party suddenly faced unified opposition."[160] The New York Times subsequently noted: "It can be difficult to remember now, given the ferocity with which many Republicans assail it as an attack on freedom, but the provision in President Obama's health care law requiring all Americans to buy health insurance has its roots in conservative thinking."[159][166]
The reform negotiations also attracted a great deal of attention from lobbyists,[184] including deals among certain lobbies and the advocates of the law to win the support of groups who had opposed past reform efforts, such as in 1993.[185][186] The Sunlight Foundation documented many of the reported ties between "the healthcare lobbyist complex" and politicians in both major parties.[187]
During the August 2009 summer congressional recess, many members went back to their districts and entertained town hall meetings to solicit public opinion on the proposals. Over the recess, the Tea Party movement organized protests and many conservative groups and individuals targeted congressional town hall meetings to voice their opposition to the proposed reform bills.[175] There were also many threats made against members of Congress over the course of the Congressional debate, and many were assigned extra protection.[188]
To maintain the progress of the legislative process, when Congress returned from recess, in September 2009 President Obama delivered a speech to a joint session of Congress supporting the ongoing Congressional negotiations, to re-emphasize his commitment to reform and again outline his proposals.[189] In it he acknowledged the polarization of the debate, and quoted a letter from the late-Senator Ted Kennedy urging on reform: "what we face is above all a moral issue; that at stake are not just the details of policy, but fundamental principles of social justice and the character of our country."[190] On November 7, the House of Representatives passed the Affordable Health Care for America Act on a 220–215 vote and forwarded it to the Senate for passage.[175]
With Democrats having lost a filibuster-proof supermajority in the Senate, but having already passed the Senate bill with 60 votes on December 23; the most viable option for the proponents of comprehensive reform was for the House to abandon its own health reform bill, the Affordable Health Care for America Act, and pass the Senate's bill (The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act) instead. Various health policy experts encouraged the House to pass the Senate version of the bill.[214] However, House Democrats were not happy with the content of the Senate bill and had expected to be able to negotiate changes in a (House-Senate) Conference before passing a final bill. With that option off the table (as any bill that emerged from Conference that differed from the Senate bill would have to be passed in the Senate over another Republican filibuster); the House Democrats agreed to pass the Senate bill on condition that it be amended by a subsequent bill (ultimately the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act), which could be passed via the reconciliation process.[211][215] Unlike the regular order, reconciliation is not subject to a filibuster (which requires 60 votes to break), but the process is limited to budget changes, which is why it was never able to be used to pass a comprehensive reform bill (with its inherently non-budgetary regulations as in the ACA) in the first place.[216] Whereas the already passed Senate bill could not have been put through reconciliation, most of House Democrats' demands were budgetary: "these changes -- higher subsidy levels, different kinds of taxes to pay for them, nixing the Nebraska Medicaid deal -- mainly involve taxes and spending. In other words, they're exactly the kinds of policies that are well-suited for reconciliation."[215] Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
Yeah, farv is very correct. A lot of elements of Obamacare came from Republican bills at the state level and some at the national level. It's very clearly a mixed party bill but, gotta play the politics game man. It's coming from a democratic president so Republicans gotta fight it tooth and nail. It'd go the exact same way with Democrats if it was coming from a Republican president. It's maddening that any sort of real economic analysis of the bill was almost completely ignored in favor of the "us vs them" narrative that politicians and the media shove down our throats.
Also, sidenote about the mandate: it's a super weird thing economically. Insurance is an incredibly weird good. Mandating car insurance vastly improved the state of the car insurance industry (for consumers as well as producers I mean) so economists tend to like it, but it still came with an opt out. If you don't want car insurance you can just not buy a car.
This health insurance mandate plays at the same improvement but without said opt out. You can't really opt out of having a body. So it has some negatives that the auto insurance mandate doesn't have.
Not really making an argument but just wanted to make some points about it. If you disagree, I love to discuss this stuff. If I'm not saying anything interesting or useful, ignore me and move on.
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On July 10 2013 22:24 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2013 13:18 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 11:35 ziggurat wrote:On July 10 2013 07:36 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 07:13 ziggurat wrote:On July 10 2013 06:31 farvacola wrote:On July 10 2013 06:28 ziggurat wrote: No one has commented (that I've seen) on Obama's decision to defer that ACA for one year as it affects corporations. It's actually a very interesting issue, because on the face of it the President doesn't have the power to do this. Can you imagine if Romney had won the election, tried and failed to repeal ACA, and then said "oh well I'll just defer the start date"? This entire debacle can be summed up rather nicely with 2 words: partisan process. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Care to elaborate? I'm saying that the Obamacare we ended up with at the end of the day looks nothing like it should have, and this is due in large part to what happens as a result of the partisan process. What are called "concessions" end up being distorting enough to render the original concept unrecognizable. The ACA was written by house democrats and passed in a party line vote. There were no concessions to republicans. It's hard to think of a clearer example of a case where one party is 100% responsible for a shitty piece of legislation. However this is actually nothing to do with the post that you were responding to. I am really interested to know what people think about Obama's recent decision to announce that the ACA won't take effect for businesses until a year later than originally scheduled. Here are a couple links in case you haven't heard about this. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323823004578591503509555268.htmlhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324507404578591671926459776.htmlAside from being (one would think) rather embarrassing for the administration, it also appears that the president doesn't actually have the power to do this under the constitution. lol, that is some amazing revisionist history at work. In fact, your willingness to so actively ignore actual history in pursuit of placing blame on Democrats speaks to the very thing I pointed to, that being partisan politics. It is important to note that the abbreviation ACA is deceiving, as it is the name for the House bill that was eventually scrapped while also being the casual abbreviation for the PPACA, the senate bill that would replace the House bill and go on to become Obamacare. Here, you should read this, as it seems you have absolutely no idea how Obamacare came into being and yet seem to have strong opinions on the subject. I've highlighted the important parts in case you can't be bothered to read everything, but this is actually one of the better written articles on wikipedia, so I highly recommend it if one is looking to get a good understanding. The plan that ultimately became the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act consists of a combination of measures to control health care costs and an insurance expansion thought public insurance (expanded Medicaid eligibility and Medicare coverage expansion) and subsidized, regulated private insurance. The latter of these ideas forms the core of the law's insurance expansion, and it has been included in bipartisan reform proposals in the past. In particular, the idea of an individual mandate coupled with subsidies for private insurance, as an alternative to public insurance, was considered a way to get Universal Health Insurance that could win the support of the Senate. Many healthcare policy experts have pointed out that the individual mandate requirement to buy health insurance was contained in many previous proposals by Republicans for healthcare legislation, going back as far as 1989, when it was initially proposed by the politically conservative Heritage Foundation as an alternative to single-payer health care.[157] The idea of an individual mandate was championed by Republican politicians as a market-based approach to health-care reform, on the basis of individual responsibility: because the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA), passed in 1986 by a bipartisan Congress and signed by Ronald Reagan, requires any hospital participating in Medicare (nearly all do) to provide emergency care to anyone who needs it, the government often indirectly bore the cost of those without the ability to pay.[158][159][160]
When, in 1993, President Bill Clinton proposed a health-care reform bill which included a mandate for employers to provide health insurance to all employees through a regulated marketplace of health maintenance organizations, Republican Senators proposed a bill that would have required individuals, and not employers, to buy insurance, as an alternative to Clinton's plan.[159] Ultimately the Clinton plan failed amid concerns that it was overly complex or unrealistic, and in the face of an unprecedented barrage of negative advertising funded by politically conservative groups and the health-insurance industry.[161] (After failing to obtain a comprehensive reform of the health care system, Clinton did however negotiate a compromise with the 105th Congress to instead enact the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) in 1997).
The 1993 Republican alternative, introduced by Senator John Chafee (R-RI) as the Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act, contained a "Universal Coverage" requirement with a penalty for non-compliance.[162][163] Advocates for the 1993 bill which contained the individual mandate included prominent Republicans who today oppose the mandate, such as Orrin Hatch (R-UT), Charles Grassley (R-IA), Bob Bennett (R-UT), and Christopher Bond (R-MO).[164][165] Of the 43 Republicans Senators from 1993, almost half - 20 out of 43 - supported the HEART Act.[157][166] And in 1994 Senator Don Nickles (R-OK) introduced the Consumer Choice Health Security Act which also contained an individual mandate with a penalty provision[167] - however, subsequently, he did remove the mandate from the act after introduction stating that they had decided "that government should not compel people to buy health insurance."[168] At the time of these proposals, Republicans did not raise constitutional issues with the mandate; Mark Pauly, who helped develop a proposal that included an individual mandate for George H.W. Bush, remarked, "I don’t remember that being raised at all. The way it was viewed by the Congressional Budget Office in 1994 was, effectively, as a tax... So I’ve been surprised by that argument."[157]
An individual health-insurance mandate was also enacted at the state-level in Massachusetts: In 2006, Republican Mitt Romney, then governor of Massachusetts, signed an insurance expansion bill with an individual mandate into law with strong bipartisan support (including that of Ted Kennedy (D-MA)). Romney's success in installing an individual mandate in Massachusetts was at first lauded by Republicans. During Romney's 2008 Presidential campaign, Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC) praised Romney's ability to "take some good conservative ideas, like private health insurance, and apply them to the need to have everyone insured." Romney himself said of the individual mandate: "I'm proud of what we've done. If Massachusetts succeeds in implementing it, then that will be the model for the nation."[169]
The following year (2007), Senators Bob Bennett (R-UT) and Ron Wyden (D-OR) introduced the Healthy Americans Act, a bill that also featured an individual mandate, and which attracted bipartisan support.[160][169] Among the Republican co-sponsors still in Congress during the health care debate: Senators Chuck Grassley (R-IA), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Bob Bennett (R-UT), Mike Crapo (R-ID), Bob Corker (R-TN), Lamar Alexander (R-TN), and Arlen Specter (R-PA).[170][171]
Given the history of bipartisan support for the idea, and its track record in Massachusetts; by 2008 Democrats were considering it as a basis for comprehensive, national health care reform: Experts have pointed out that the legislation that eventually emerged from Congress in 2009 and 2010 bears many similarities to the 2007 bill;[163] and that it was deliberately patterned after former Republican Governor of Massachusetts Mitt Romney's state healthcare plan (which contains an individual mandate).[172] Jonathan Gruber, a key architect of the Massachusetts reform, advised the Clinton and Obama Presidential campaigns on their health care proposals, served as a technical consultant to the Obama Administration, and helped Congress draft the ACA.
Health care reform was a major topic of discussion during the 2008 Democratic presidential primaries. As the race narrowed, attention focused on the plans presented by the two leading candidates, New York Senator Hillary Clinton and the eventual nominee, Illinois Senator Barack Obama. Each candidate proposed a plan to cover the approximately 45 million Americans estimated to be without health insurance at some point during each year. One point of difference between the plans was that Clinton's plan was to require all Americans to obtain coverage (in effect, an individual health insurance mandate), while Obama's was to provide a subsidy but not create a direct requirement. During the general election campaign between Obama and the Republican nominee, Arizona Senator John McCain, Obama said that fixing health care would be one of his top four priorities if he won the presidency.[173]
After his inauguration, Obama announced to a joint session of Congress in February 2009 that he would begin working with Congress to construct a plan for health care reform.[174] On March 5, 2009, Obama formally began the reform process and held a conference with industry leaders to discuss reform.[175] By July, a series of bills were approved by committees within the House of Representatives.[176] On the Senate side, beginning June 17, 2009, and extending through September 14, 2009, three Democratic and three Republican Senate Finance Committee Members met for a series of 31 meetings to discuss the development of a health care reform bill. Over the course of the next three months, this group, Senators Max Baucus (D-MT), Chuck Grassley (R-IA), Kent Conrad (D-ND), Olympia Snowe (R-ME), Jeff Bingaman (D-NM), and Mike Enzi (R-WY), met for more than 60 hours, and the principles that they discussed (in conjunction with the other Committees) became the foundation of the Senate's health care reform bill.[177] The meetings were held in public and broadcast by C-SPAN and can be seen on the C-SPAN web site[178] or at the Committee's own web site.[179]
With universal health insurance as one of the stated goals of the Obama Administration, Congressional Democrats and health policy experts like Jonathan Gruber and David Cutler argued that guaranteed issue would require both a (partial) community rating and an individual health insurance mandate to prevent either adverse selection and/or free riding from creating an insurance death spiral.[21] They convinced Obama that this was necessary, which persuaded the Administration to accept Congressional proposals that included a mandate.[22] This approach was preferred because the President and Congressional leaders concluded that more liberal plans (such as Medicare-for-all) could not win filibuster-proof support in the Senate. By deliberately drawing on bipartisan ideas - the same basic outline was supported by former Senate Majority Leaders Howard Baker (R-TN), Bob Dole (R-KS), Tom Daschle (D-SD) and George Mitchell (D-ME) - the bill's drafters hoped to increase the chances of getting the necessary votes for passage.[180][181][182]
However, following the adoption of an individual mandate as a central component of the proposed reforms by Democrats, Republicans began to oppose the mandate and threaten to filibuster any bills that contained it.[157] Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), who lead the Republican Congressional strategy in responding to the bill, calculated that Republicans should not support the bill, and worked to keep party discipline and prevent defections:[182] “ It was absolutely critical that everybody be together because if the proponents of the bill were able to say it was bipartisan, it tended to convey to the public that this is O.K., they must have figured it out.[183] ”
Republican Senators (including those who had supported previous bills with a similar mandate) began to describe the mandate as "unconstitutional". Writing in The New Yorker, Ezra Klein stated that "the end result was... a policy that once enjoyed broad support within the Republican Party suddenly faced unified opposition."[160] The New York Times subsequently noted: "It can be difficult to remember now, given the ferocity with which many Republicans assail it as an attack on freedom, but the provision in President Obama's health care law requiring all Americans to buy health insurance has its roots in conservative thinking."[159][166]
The reform negotiations also attracted a great deal of attention from lobbyists,[184] including deals among certain lobbies and the advocates of the law to win the support of groups who had opposed past reform efforts, such as in 1993.[185][186] The Sunlight Foundation documented many of the reported ties between "the healthcare lobbyist complex" and politicians in both major parties.[187]
During the August 2009 summer congressional recess, many members went back to their districts and entertained town hall meetings to solicit public opinion on the proposals. Over the recess, the Tea Party movement organized protests and many conservative groups and individuals targeted congressional town hall meetings to voice their opposition to the proposed reform bills.[175] There were also many threats made against members of Congress over the course of the Congressional debate, and many were assigned extra protection.[188]
To maintain the progress of the legislative process, when Congress returned from recess, in September 2009 President Obama delivered a speech to a joint session of Congress supporting the ongoing Congressional negotiations, to re-emphasize his commitment to reform and again outline his proposals.[189] In it he acknowledged the polarization of the debate, and quoted a letter from the late-Senator Ted Kennedy urging on reform: "what we face is above all a moral issue; that at stake are not just the details of policy, but fundamental principles of social justice and the character of our country."[190] On November 7, the House of Representatives passed the Affordable Health Care for America Act on a 220–215 vote and forwarded it to the Senate for passage.[175]
With Democrats having lost a filibuster-proof supermajority in the Senate, but having already passed the Senate bill with 60 votes on December 23; the most viable option for the proponents of comprehensive reform was for the House to abandon its own health reform bill, the Affordable Health Care for America Act, and pass the Senate's bill (The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act) instead. Various health policy experts encouraged the House to pass the Senate version of the bill.[214] However, House Democrats were not happy with the content of the Senate bill and had expected to be able to negotiate changes in a (House-Senate) Conference before passing a final bill. With that option off the table (as any bill that emerged from Conference that differed from the Senate bill would have to be passed in the Senate over another Republican filibuster); the House Democrats agreed to pass the Senate bill on condition that it be amended by a subsequent bill (ultimately the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act), which could be passed via the reconciliation process.[211][215] Unlike the regular order, reconciliation is not subject to a filibuster (which requires 60 votes to break), but the process is limited to budget changes, which is why it was never able to be used to pass a comprehensive reform bill (with its inherently non-budgetary regulations as in the ACA) in the first place.[216] Whereas the already passed Senate bill could not have been put through reconciliation, most of House Democrats' demands were budgetary: "these changes -- higher subsidy levels, different kinds of taxes to pay for them, nixing the Nebraska Medicaid deal -- mainly involve taxes and spending. In other words, they're exactly the kinds of policies that are well-suited for reconciliation."[215] Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Yeah, farv is very correct. A lot of elements of Obamacare came from Republican bills at the state level and some at the national level. It's very clearly a mixed party bill but, gotta play the politics game man. It's coming from a democratic president so Republicans gotta fight it tooth and nail. It'd go the exact same way with Democrats if it was coming from a Republican president. It's maddening that any sort of real economic analysis of the bill was almost completely ignored in favor of the "us vs them" narrative that politicians and the media shove down our throats. Also, sidenote about the mandate: it's a super weird thing economically. Insurance is an incredibly weird good. Mandating car insurance vastly improved the state of the car insurance industry (for consumers as well as producers I mean) so economists tend to like it, but it still came with an opt out. If you don't want car insurance you can just not buy a car. This health insurance mandate plays at the same improvement but without said opt out. You can't really opt out of having a body. So it has some negatives that the auto insurance mandate doesn't have. Not really making an argument but just wanted to make some points about it. If you disagree, I love to discuss this stuff. If I'm not saying anything interesting or useful, ignore me and move on. He said there were "concessions" to the republicans to make the bill the way it is. That was incorrect. The bill was written by democrats, and every single republican voted against it in both the house and the senate. The fact that democrats, when writing the legislation, may have cut and pasted from some other sources doesn't make it a bipartisan process.
I think liberals are feeling a bit of cognitive dissonance about the ACA at this moment. Most liberals strongly supported the bill when the democrats were ramming it through. It's now become apparent that it's embarrassingly bad legislation - in one of the posts at the top of this thread Farvacola called it a "debacle" (nice to see we can agree about something )! So people who supported it, rather than just admit that they made a bad call, are now coming up with all kinds of excuses for why they it sucks so much.
Farvacola apparently now believes that the legislation sucks because of "concessions" that the democrats made as part of the "partisan process". But there were no concessions. The democrats wrote the bill and 100% of republicans opposed it. When I pointed out these facts, Farv's response was to say "lol", call me ignorant, and quote a wikipedia article which confirms them.
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Liberals always said the ACA sucked. We should have single payer, or at least the public option. But it's better than nothing.
And just because republicans said no to everything doesn't mean that democrats didnt concede anything. Not to mention that not all Democrats are that liberal on economic things.
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On July 10 2013 23:06 DoubleReed wrote: Liberals always said the ACA sucked. We should have single payer, or at least the public option. But it's better than nothing.
And just because republicans said no to everything doesn't mean that democrats didnt concede anything.
And that's how you know it was a success! True compromise is when everyone hates everyone else!
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
that's assuming success is compromise, everyone is right in some parts etc.
but when it comes to healthcare this is clearly not the case.
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On July 10 2013 14:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Here's a news story that will make us get along, State corruption: Show nested quote +RICHMOND — A prominent political donor gave $70,000 to a corporation owned by Virginia Gov. Robert F. McDonnell and his sister last year, and the governor did not disclose the money as a gift or loan, according to people with knowledge of the payments.
The donor, wealthy businessman Jonnie R. Williams Sr., also gave a previously unknown $50,000 check to the governor’s wife, Maureen, in 2011, the people said.
The money to the corporation and Maureen McDonnell brings to $145,000 the amount Williams gave to assist the McDonnell family in 2011 and 2012 — funds that are now at the center of federal and state investigations.
Williams, the chief executive of dietary supplement manufacturer Star Scientific Inc., also provided a $10,000 check in December as a present to McDonnell’s eldest daughter, Jeanine, intended to help defray costs at her May 2013 wedding, the people said.
Virginia’s first family already is under intense scrutiny for accepting $15,000 from the same chief executive to pay for the catering at the June 2011 wedding of Cailin McDonnell at the Executive Mansion.
All the payments came as McDonnell and his wife took steps to promote the donor’s company and its products. Source
Oh and I don't want to gloss over this because it's an important example of how easy it is for corruption to infect the public sector. Buying laws and favors is WAY too easy in politics and it's one of the (I think very good) arguments that conservatives have for privatization. You may be able to bribe a CEO but at least he can't make laws.
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