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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On May 21 2013 21:46 aksfjh wrote:
And boo-fucking-hoo about him being in jail because of a campaign pursued by the executive branch. You must have missed what the CIA has been doing since the 1960s. Our country has likely caused genocide in some cases, and we have thrown an entire country into war within the past decade. I'm certain journalists have been shot and killed with all the crap going on in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Indeed, people shouldn't be butt hurt about massacres committed by U.S. troops in countries the U.S. isn't at war with. Massacres which the U.S. denies any involvement in which then get reported by foreign journalists who get put in Jail by a U.S. backed dictator who when on the verge of releasing said journalist get phone calls from Obama to keep them imprisoned.
If only the journalist had the decency to be American. Or working for a syndicated news organisation. Or dead.
On May 21 2013 21:56 nunez wrote:
edit: but why do you think he was going to be released from jail
Because he received a presidential pardon. You can read more about the case in my link above.
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United States42685 Posts
I've never understood why paying corporation tax appears to be a voluntary thing for so many big corporations. Governments seem to want to get into a lawyer off with companies which have literally billions to spend on tax evasion lawyers rather than just admitting that they can't win at tax evasion but they do have the power to simply extort. Can they not simply make an estimate of how much they think Apple owes and then demand that much to keep doing business in the US?
We have the same ongoing issue in the UK with Starbucks, Google and Amazon not paying any tax through various dodges. Starbucks in the UK pays a fee to Starbucks international for use of the name Starbucks which amounts to exactly the amount of money they make in the UK so they declare a loss in the UK each year while sending piles of money abroad and people say "if we pursue them too harshly they just won't want to do business in the UK anymore". Who cares if they don't want to do business in the UK, it's not like people will stop liking coffee, there will be a gap in the market which will be filled by local entrepreneurs employing local resources and paying tax in our country. The tax lawyer game is a game in which the company holds all the cards but it's also one that the government allows them to play and I'm not sure why they do it anymore.
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On May 22 2013 00:57 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 21:46 aksfjh wrote:
And boo-fucking-hoo about him being in jail because of a campaign pursued by the executive branch. You must have missed what the CIA has been doing since the 1960s. Our country has likely caused genocide in some cases, and we have thrown an entire country into war within the past decade. I'm certain journalists have been shot and killed with all the crap going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Indeed, people shouldn't be butt hurt about massacres committed by U.S. troops in countries the U.S. isn't at war with. Massacres which the U.S. denies any involvement in which then get reported by foreign journalists who get put in Jail by a U.S. backed dictator who when on the verge of releasing said journalist get phone calls from Obama to keep them imprisoned. If only the journalist had the decency to be American. Or working for a syndicated news organisation. Or dead. Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 21:56 nunez wrote:
edit: but why do you think he was going to be released from jail Because he received a presidential pardon. You can read more about the case in my link above.
ah, sorry, i missed your post first time around. cheers!
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Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK), who opposed emergency disaster relief for victims of Hurricane Sandy and called the bill a “slush fund,” suggested he’ll support legislation to provide similar assistance to victims of the tornado in Moore, Okla., provided it’s tailored narrowly enough to prevent federal dollars from being appropriated to other states.
“[Sandy aid] was totally different,” Inhofe said on MSNBC Tuesday morning. “They were getting things, for instance, that was supposed to be in New Jersey. They had things in the Virgin Islands. They were fixing roads there, they were putting roofs on houses in Washington, D.C. Everybody was getting in and exploiting the tragedy that took place. That won’t happen in Oklahoma.”
Inhofe’s remarks are telling not just because they hint at a double standard. They also suggest Inhofe will support disaster relief for Oklahoma whether or not it’s offset with other budget cuts. Inhofe’s Oklahoma colleague, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) says he’ll fight to make sure Oklahoma disaster relief is offset. Conservative Republicans have been trying unsuccessfully for two years to use disaster assistance as an opportunity to cut domestic spending programs elsewhere in the budget.
A total of 31 Senate Republicans opposed the final Sandy relief bill earlier this year, citing small appropriations to repair damages and address concerns outside the hardest hit areas in New York and New Jersey, as well as the fact that the funds weren’t offset, and because it contained $16 billion to be distributed as Community Development Block Grants.
Source
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On May 22 2013 01:10 KwarK wrote:
I've never understood why paying corporation tax appears to be a voluntary thing for so many big corporations. Governments seem to want to get into a lawyer off with companies which have literally billions to spend on tax evasion lawyers rather than just admitting that they can't win at tax evasion but they do have the power to simply extort. Can they not simply make an estimate of how much they think Apple owes and then demand that much to keep doing business in the US?
We have the same ongoing issue in the UK with Starbucks, Google and Amazon not paying any tax through various dodges. Starbucks in the UK pays a fee to Starbucks international for use of the name Starbucks which amounts to exactly the amount of money they make in the UK so they declare a loss in the UK each year while sending piles of money abroad and people say "if we pursue them too harshly they just won't want to do business in the UK anymore". Who cares if they don't want to do business in the UK, it's not like people will stop liking coffee, there will be a gap in the market which will be filled by local entrepreneurs employing local resources and paying tax in our country. The tax lawyer game is a game in which the company holds all the cards but it's also one that the government allows them to play and I'm not sure why they do it anymore.
Well, complex tax is complicated. Some exploits aren't exploits once you look under the hood. Other exploits exist on purpose to attract international business (a form of international schadenfreude) or incentivize particular behavior (industrial policy). Other exploits are bugs that need to be patched. Meanwhile, companies are becoming more integrated globally which makes the issues exponentially more complex and valuable.
Edit:
The Financial Times explains what makes the Netherlands so attractive to companies that want to cut their tax bill.
3:27 vid. Great example/explaination of international tax arbitrage.
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On May 22 2013 00:57 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 21:46 aksfjh wrote:
And boo-fucking-hoo about him being in jail because of a campaign pursued by the executive branch. You must have missed what the CIA has been doing since the 1960s. Our country has likely caused genocide in some cases, and we have thrown an entire country into war within the past decade. I'm certain journalists have been shot and killed with all the crap going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Indeed, people shouldn't be butt hurt about massacres committed by U.S. troops in countries the U.S. isn't at war with. Massacres which the U.S. denies any involvement in which then get reported by foreign journalists who get put in Jail by a U.S. backed dictator who when on the verge of releasing said journalist get phone calls from Obama to keep them imprisoned. If only the journalist had the decency to be American. Or working for a syndicated news organisation. Or dead.
Man... You're so right : D I somehow missed the American imperialism... How could I be so folly as to have it escape me. Do me a favor and citation any massacre commited by US troops, citations required good sir. What we have a single misfire on camera where they shot a crew of journalists, as if that happens daily... Get fucking real, you insult both British and American troops and the goals in place so again sir I ask for citations
Post me some of these American massacres, post me the massacres commited by US troops in nations the US isn't at war or engaged with)
Do go on to give me a long list of US, currently, backed dictators where America dictates what jouranlists to keep and not keep. Can you provide the tape of Obama giving them phone calls, these mass amounts of dictators, where Obama stops the dictators (who were oh so kind in the first place to release them before him stopping them).
You're an idiot and a novice, you think the world is simply simple and your mind reflects your belief system. You think America is out to get you and is the boogeyman waiting to control your every move, every sale and everything about you when no one in the world, currently, gives a shit about you, personally. When the US remains out of Rwanda, cowards only fight for poltiical gain, when they invade Iraq to remove a dictator who commits genocide, forces families to clap at executions of their loved ones for dissent and invades neighboring regions, must be imperalism and now that the US removed Ghadafi you cry imperialism but when they don't intervene in Syria it's political gains. ( realize I'm generalizing and assuming but tell me how much of what I just said doesn't, in some way or another, reflect your opinion. )
Your the coward of politics, you sit back and cry fowl at every move so you don't have to move yourself, you say the Americans are bad because they try and steer the world and whether they aim left or right or center you find a reason to bitch and complain as if you, sitting in your chair so high and mighty knowing Obama's personal phone calls to Dictators, have a much better plan that people should swath into and listen to.
Stop your conspiracy bullshit and grow up, research your topics and provide citations or get out because I'm tired of this "Imperialism" America trend and I'm not even a fucking American.
On May 22 2013 01:10 KwarK wrote:
I've never understood why paying corporation tax appears to be a voluntary thing for so many big corporations. Governments seem to want to get into a lawyer off with companies which have literally billions to spend on tax evasion lawyers rather than just admitting that they can't win at tax evasion but they do have the power to simply extort. Can they not simply make an estimate of how much they think Apple owes and then demand that much to keep doing business in the US?
We have the same ongoing issue in the UK with Starbucks, Google and Amazon not paying any tax through various dodges. Starbucks in the UK pays a fee to Starbucks international for use of the name Starbucks which amounts to exactly the amount of money they make in the UK so they declare a loss in the UK each year while sending piles of money abroad and people say "if we pursue them too harshly they just won't want to do business in the UK anymore". Who cares if they don't want to do business in the UK, it's not like people will stop liking coffee, there will be a gap in the market which will be filled by local entrepreneurs employing local resources and paying tax in our country. The tax lawyer game is a game in which the company holds all the cards but it's also one that the government allows them to play and I'm not sure why they do it anymore.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didnt apple pay, if not the most, then near the most in taxes last year for a major corporation? In fact there was a forbes article on the amount of money Apple spent on taxes and how they claimed they'd spend more on taxes if it was a more effective system.
found it
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2013/05/20/apple-willing-to-pay-more-taxes-to-get-an-efficient-system/
From Apple’s fiscal 2012 10-K the company paid $7.7 billion in cash taxes vs. $3.3 billion the previous year, an increase of 130%. The $7.7 billion was 55% of the taxes reported on its income statement and almost $6 billion was to the U.S. Treasury, probably making it the largest corporate tax payer in the U.S.
User was temp banned for writing a string of random insults at a poster because he couldn't be bothered to read what the topic of the conversation was.
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United States42685 Posts
Hitch-22 you didn't seem to read his post.
The incident he was referring to was cited in this topic if you'd clicked the link on the reporter who was arrested for writing about it. It was the al-Majalah bombing, carried out by US forces although the Pentagon denied responsibility and the Yemeni government claimed responsibility. Wikileaks releases confirm it was done by American forces acting in Yemen hence why he writes "massacres committed by U.S. troops in countries the U.S. isn't at war with". You seem to have confused it with the collateral murder massacre because you didn't read the citation and then went on a long rant about how there was no citation and therefore it didn't happen. It did.
Here is a respectable journalistic source for it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/7806882/US-cluster-bombs-killed-35-women-and-children.html
I'm now going to ban you for throwing a string of ad hominems at a random guy because you couldn't be bothered to read the topic of the conversation before responding. I'd never heard of the al-Majalah bombing before I read the last few pages either but I took the time to read the posts before calling other people idiots.
On May 22 2013 01:56 Hitch-22 wrote:
You're an idiot and a novice, you think the world is simply simple and your mind reflects your belief system.
Your the coward of politics
Stop your conspiracy bullshit and grow up, research your topics and provide citations
is not an acceptable response to your own failure to click the citations in the topic
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On May 22 2013 01:56 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 00:57 Dapper_Cad wrote:On May 21 2013 21:46 aksfjh wrote:
And boo-fucking-hoo about him being in jail because of a campaign pursued by the executive branch. You must have missed what the CIA has been doing since the 1960s. Our country has likely caused genocide in some cases, and we have thrown an entire country into war within the past decade. I'm certain journalists have been shot and killed with all the crap going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Indeed, people shouldn't be butt hurt about massacres committed by U.S. troops in countries the U.S. isn't at war with. Massacres which the U.S. denies any involvement in which then get reported by foreign journalists who get put in Jail by a U.S. backed dictator who when on the verge of releasing said journalist get phone calls from Obama to keep them imprisoned. If only the journalist had the decency to be American. Or working for a syndicated news organisation. Or dead. Man... You're so right : D I somehow missed the American imperialism... How could I be so folly as to have it escape me. Do me a favor and citation any massacre commited by US troops, citations required good sir. What we have a single misfire on camera where they shot a crew of journalists, as if that happens daily... Get fucking real, you insult both British and American troops and the goals in place so again sir I ask for citations Post me some of these American massacres, post me the massacres commited by US troops in nations the US isn't at war or engaged with) Do go on to give me a long list of US, currently, backed dictators where America dictates what jouranlists to keep and not keep. Can you provide the tape of Obama giving them phone calls, these mass amounts of dictators, where Obama stops the dictators (who were oh so kind in the first place to release them before him stopping them). You're an idiot and a novice, you think the world is simply simple and your mind reflects your belief system. You think America is out to get you and is the boogeyman waiting to control your every move, every sale and everything about you when no one in the world, currently, gives a shit about you, personally. When the US remains out of Rwanda, cowards only fight for poltiical gain, when they invade Iraq to remove a dictator who commits genocide, forces families to clap at executions of their loved ones for dissent and invades neighboring regions, must be imperalism and now that the US removed Ghadafi you cry imperialism but when they don't intervene in Syria it's political gains. ( realize I'm generalizing and assuming but tell me how much of what I just said doesn't, in some way or another, reflect your opinion. ) Your the coward of politics, you sit back and cry fowl at every move so you don't have to move yourself, you say the Americans are bad because they try and steer the world and whether they aim left or right or center you find a reason to bitch and complain as if you, sitting in your chair so high and mighty knowing Obama's personal phone calls to Dictators, have a much better plan that people should swath into and listen to. Stop your conspiracy bullshit and grow up, research your topics and provide citations or get out because I'm tired of this "Imperialism" America trend and I'm not even a fucking American.
what the fuck are you on about? he's referring to al-Majalah.
edit: kwark cruiser missile, boooom.
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On May 22 2013 01:56 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 00:57 Dapper_Cad wrote:On May 21 2013 21:46 aksfjh wrote:
And boo-fucking-hoo about him being in jail because of a campaign pursued by the executive branch. You must have missed what the CIA has been doing since the 1960s. Our country has likely caused genocide in some cases, and we have thrown an entire country into war within the past decade. I'm certain journalists have been shot and killed with all the crap going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Indeed, people shouldn't be butt hurt about massacres committed by U.S. troops in countries the U.S. isn't at war with. Massacres which the U.S. denies any involvement in which then get reported by foreign journalists who get put in Jail by a U.S. backed dictator who when on the verge of releasing said journalist get phone calls from Obama to keep them imprisoned. If only the journalist had the decency to be American. Or working for a syndicated news organisation. Or dead. Do me a favor and citation any massacre commited by US troops, citations required good sir.
Source
Pakistan
April 2013 actions
Total CIA strikes in April: 2
Total killed in strikes in April: 8-12, of whom 0 were reportedly civilians
All actions 2004 – April 30 2013
Total Obama strikes: 316
Total US strikes since 2004: 368
Total reported killed: 2,541-3,533
Civilians reported killed: 411-884
Children reported killed: 168-197
Total reported injured: 1,173-1,472
April 2013 actions
Confirmed US drone strikes: 1
Further reported/possible US strike events: 1
Total reported killed in US operations: 4-7
Civilians reported killed in US strikes: 0
Yemen
All actions 2002 – April 30 2013*
Confirmed US drone strikes: 44-54
Total reported killed: 232-333
Civilians reported killed: 12-47
Children reported killed: 2
Reported injured: 62-144
Possible extra US drone strikes: 78-96
Total reported killed: 277-445
Civilians reported killed: 27-50
Children reported killed: 9-10
Reported injured: 76-98
All other US covert operations: 12-76
Total reported killed: 148-366
Civilians reported killed: 60-87
Children reported killed: 25
Reported injured: 22-111
Somalia
April 2013 actions
Total reported US operations: 0
All actions 2007 – April 30 2013
US drone strikes: 3-9
Total reported killed: 7-27
Civilians reported killed: 0-15
Children reported killed: 0
Reported injured: 2-24
All other US covert operations: 7-14
Total reported killed: 47-143
Civilians reported killed: 7-42
Children reported killed: 1-3
Reported injured: 12-20
Details of the individual strikes are outlined in the links provided in the source link.
Methodology - If you don't trust the site.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Interesting bit of local news.
ENCINITAS, Calif. - Trial of a lawsuit that seeks to stop yoga instruction in the Encinitas Union School District got under way Monday in a San Diego courtroom. The lawsuit was filed by the National Center for Law and Policy on behalf of Stephen and Jennifer Sedlock, whose children attend one of the district's nine schools. They contend that Ashtanga yoga is religious in nature, and that opting out costs students physical education time. Controversy over the program erupted last year as the district began to develop a health and wellness curriculum that includes yoga. The program was funded by a $500,000 grant from the K.P. Jois Foundation, which promotes Ashtanga yoga, a fast-paced form of yoga of progressively more demanding poses with synchronized breathing. The district is believed to be the first in the country to have full-time yoga teachers at every one of its schools. Dean Broyles, who represents the plaintiffs in this case, quizzed Baird about the K.P. Jois Foundation, which wants to develop a nationwide yoga program for schools. The National Center for Law and Policy wrote in a declaration supporting the complaint that "EUSD's Ashtanga yoga program is inherently and pervasively religious, having its roots firmly planted in Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, and Western Metaphysical religious beliefs and practices." The declaration also says children who have opted out of yoga classes are subjected to bullying. Superintendent Timothy Baird testified that parents are allowed to opt out of yoga, but the children of those who do will receive less PE time than participating students. However, they will still receive at least the state-required minimum of PE minutes, he said. He denied that the foundation hired yoga teachers for the district or had a hand in writing the curriculum. "I have seen nothing that would indicate that students are being indoctrinated," Baird said during testimony. The superintendent testified that the pace of the yoga exercises and terminology have been changed to make it "kid friendly," but the poses remain the same as in the adult version. Only part of the full health and wellness program has been implemented around the district, according to Baird. "We're constantly writing the curriculum -- it's not done," Baird said. Baird said EUSD students get the required minimum of 200 hours each 10 days of physical activity. Those students who are involved in yoga get 320 minutes of physical fitness. Baird also said that he noticed that during the trial period, when only one school in the district was practicing yoga, children were getting better grades. He admitted the information is anecdotal, not scientific. Several parents attended the first day of the trial. Those who say yoga has no place in their children's schools declined to be interviewed on the advice of their attorney. One parent on the other side of the issue said he was attending the trial out of curiosity. "I've personally seen yoga being done and I've done yoga and I've had no religious transformation or experience," said Scott Gaddy, a father of two. "I'm curious to see how they're saying it's more than that because I personally haven't experienced that." Gaddy said parents with objections to yoga should be respected, but told 10News he believes the lawsuit is a frivolous waste of taxpayer money. The trial is expected to last two to three days in the courtroom of Superior Court Judge John Meyer. The parties have agreed to have Meyer decide the issue, so there is no jury. http://www.10news.com/news/lawsuit-on-yoga-heads-to-court-parents-sued-after-encinitas-schools-offered-yoga-classes-052013
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really? its only yoga ffs....
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On May 22 2013 02:37 renoB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 01:56 Hitch-22 wrote:On May 22 2013 00:57 Dapper_Cad wrote:On May 21 2013 21:46 aksfjh wrote:
And boo-fucking-hoo about him being in jail because of a campaign pursued by the executive branch. You must have missed what the CIA has been doing since the 1960s. Our country has likely caused genocide in some cases, and we have thrown an entire country into war within the past decade. I'm certain journalists have been shot and killed with all the crap going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Indeed, people shouldn't be butt hurt about massacres committed by U.S. troops in countries the U.S. isn't at war with. Massacres which the U.S. denies any involvement in which then get reported by foreign journalists who get put in Jail by a U.S. backed dictator who when on the verge of releasing said journalist get phone calls from Obama to keep them imprisoned. If only the journalist had the decency to be American. Or working for a syndicated news organisation. Or dead. Do me a favor and citation any massacre commited by US troops, citations required good sir. SourceShow nested quote +Pakistan
April 2013 actions
Total CIA strikes in April: 2
Total killed in strikes in April: 8-12, of whom 0 were reportedly civilians
All actions 2004 – April 30 2013
Total Obama strikes: 316
Total US strikes since 2004: 368
Total reported killed: 2,541-3,533
Civilians reported killed: 411-884
Children reported killed: 168-197
Total reported injured: 1,173-1,472
April 2013 actions
Confirmed US drone strikes: 1
Further reported/possible US strike events: 1
Total reported killed in US operations: 4-7
Civilians reported killed in US strikes: 0
Yemen
All actions 2002 – April 30 2013*
Confirmed US drone strikes: 44-54
Total reported killed: 232-333
Civilians reported killed: 12-47
Children reported killed: 2
Reported injured: 62-144
Possible extra US drone strikes: 78-96
Total reported killed: 277-445
Civilians reported killed: 27-50
Children reported killed: 9-10
Reported injured: 76-98
All other US covert operations: 12-76
Total reported killed: 148-366
Civilians reported killed: 60-87
Children reported killed: 25
Reported injured: 22-111
Somalia
April 2013 actions
Total reported US operations: 0
All actions 2007 – April 30 2013
US drone strikes: 3-9
Total reported killed: 7-27
Civilians reported killed: 0-15
Children reported killed: 0
Reported injured: 2-24
All other US covert operations: 7-14
Total reported killed: 47-143
Civilians reported killed: 7-42
Children reported killed: 1-3
Reported injured: 12-20 Details of the individual strikes are outlined in the links provided in the source link. Methodology - If you don't trust the site.
Aren't there supposed to be more civilians than combatants killed in a massacre?
Maybe I'm missing something, a 1:3 overall civilian:combatant death ratio does not seem to fit the definition of a massacre. A 1:3 ratio is how many times superior to the 20th century 10:1 ratio? I'm bad at math but that seems like a significant improvement at reducing "massacres" of civilians in bombings.
On May 21 2013 21:46 aksfjh wrote:
And boo-fucking-hoo about him being in jail because of a campaign pursued by the executive branch. You must have missed what the CIA has been doing since the 1960s. Our country has likely caused genocide in some cases, and we have thrown an entire country into war within the past decade. I'm certain journalists have been shot and killed with all the crap going on in Iraq and Afghanistan.
God the never-ending regurgitation of stale NKVD agitprop never ends does it asgshsdh? Put down books written by Russians in 1946 please.
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United States42685 Posts
The massacre in question was dropping a cluster bomb on a group of people including civilians and Al Qaeda members killing 14 innocent women, 21 innocent children and 14 of the Al Qaeda targets. This incident is called a massacre because it was, saying "but if you average it out with a bunch of other times where we didn't kill civilians then the overall ratio of civilian deaths is much lower and therefore no massacres took place" (which is literally the argument you just made) is a really poor argument. Furthermore cluster bombs pretty much banned from use wherever there is scrutiny because, like landmines, they kill indiscriminately and leave behind unexploded munitions which pose a continued threat to civilians.
DeepElm, do you deny that the al-Majalah.incident, when looked at in isolation and not averaged out with a bunch of other incidents, represents a poor ratio of civilian deaths to those of enemy combatants?
Also I believe he was referencing the Iraq War when he said that the US threw a country into civil war in the last decade, something which 1946 Cold War propaganda booklets have made no reference to, possibly due to the invasion of Iraq happening 57 years after they were printed.
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The massacre in question was dropping a cluster bomb on a group of people including civilians and Al Qaeda members killing 14 innocent women, 21 innocent children and 14 of the Al Qaeda targets. This incident is called a massacre because it was, saying "but if you average it out with a bunch of other times where we didn't kill civilians then the overall ratio of civilian deaths is much lower and therefore no massacres took place" (which is literally the argument you just made) is a really poor argument. Furthermore cluster bombs pretty much banned from use wherever there is scrutiny because, like landmines, they kill indiscriminately and leave behind unexploded munitions which pose a continued threat to civilians.
KwarK, this ability of yours to respond to not quite what the other man said but close enough that it's quite subtle is truly something to behold. Because I truly do not believe you do it deliberately. At no point did I refer to al-Majalah anywhere. At no point did I respond to anything you said. At all times my response was directly towards what was quoted, which had characterized the drone campaign as "massacres." I am sorry that you assumed otherwise and have now upbraided me over a mistaken belief that I was having a conversation with you in my response. I was not.
Now that does not mean you would be wrong to say what you say next, asking me about al-Majalah. Because I did not address it and obviously you want my opinion on it. But you were wrong to think I was talking about al-Majalah at all and you were wrong to give me grief over it.
DeepElm, do you deny that the al-Majalah.incident, when looked at in isolation and not averaged out with a bunch of other incidents, represents a poor ratio of civilian deaths to those of enemy combatants?
No I don't see myself denying that, it would be silly. I don't see where it is a massacre though.
Also I believe he was referencing the Iraq War when he said that the US threw a country into civil war in the last decade, something which 1946 Cold War propaganda booklets have made no reference to, possibly due to the invasion of Iraq happening 57 years after they were printed.
Please, don't ever again try to dissect what I write like this; it is embarrassing. I know precisely what he was referencing. I was replying to the first half of his post, regarding genocide and the CIA. I did not say anything about Iraq or Afghanistan because I mostly agree with him.
See KwarK that's the problem with responding to posts that are responses to other people, not yourself; that's why I try to be direct and I don't mean direct as in forceful I mean direct as I don't treat my conversations as multiple-party enterprises; to me they are a series of 1-on-1 conversations. When I respond to you or anyone I am responding to you only and not someone else. I'm sure I fail at times of course. But please no more gotcha ambushes they are very silly :/
Now for something less dead horse, the war on terror is so 2006:
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-top-irs-official-fifth-amendment-20130521,0,6645565.story
WASHINGTON – A top IRS official in the division that reviews nonprofit groups will invoke the Fifth Amendment and refuse to answer questions before a House committee investigating the agency’s improper screening of conservative nonprofit groups.
Lois Lerner, the head of the exempt organizations division of the IRS, won’t answer questions about what she knew about the improper screening – or why she didn’t reveal it to Congress, according to a letter from her defense lawyer, William W. Taylor 3rd.
Lerner was scheduled to appear before the House Oversight committee Wednesday.
“She has not committed any crime or made any misrepresentation but under the circumstances she has no choice but to take this course,” said a letter by Taylor to committee Chairman Darrell E. Issa, R-Calif. The letter, sent Monday, was obtained Tuesday by the Los Angeles Times.
Taylor, a criminal defense attorney from the Washington firm of Zuckerman Spaeder, said that the Department of Justice has launched a criminal investigation, and that the House committee has asked Lerner to explain why she provided “false or misleading information” to the committee four times last year.
Since Lerner won’t answer questions, Taylor asked that she be excused from appearing, saying that would “have no purpose other than to embarrass or burden her.” There was no immediate word whether the committee will grant her request.
Further down the IRS-hole we go. I wonder what kind of hookah-smoking insect is at the other end.
Choom Gang For Life!
Did I say something about dead equines? That was rather bold of me wasn't it.
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On May 22 2013 05:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +The massacre in question was dropping a cluster bomb on a group of people including civilians and Al Qaeda members killing 14 innocent women, 21 innocent children and 14 of the Al Qaeda targets. This incident is called a massacre because it was, saying "but if you average it out with a bunch of other times where we didn't kill civilians then the overall ratio of civilian deaths is much lower and therefore no massacres took place" (which is literally the argument you just made) is a really poor argument. Furthermore cluster bombs pretty much banned from use wherever there is scrutiny because, like landmines, they kill indiscriminately and leave behind unexploded munitions which pose a continued threat to civilians. KwarK, this ability of yours to respond to not quite what the other man said but close enough that it's quite subtle is truly something to behold. Because I truly do not believe you do it deliberately. At no point did I refer to al-Majalah anywhere. At no point did I respond to anything you said. At all times my response was directly towards what was quoted, which had characterized the drone campaign as "massacres." I am sorry that you assumed otherwise and have now upbraided me over a mistaken belief that I was having a conversation with you in my response. I was not. Now that does not mean you would be wrong to say what you say next, asking me about al-Majalah. Because I did not address it and obviously you want my opinion on it. But you were wrong to think I was talking about al-Majalah at all and you were wrong to give me grief over it. Show nested quote +DeepElm, do you deny that the al-Majalah.incident, when looked at in isolation and not averaged out with a bunch of other incidents, represents a poor ratio of civilian deaths to those of enemy combatants? No I don't see myself denying that, it would be silly. I don't see where it is a massacre though. Show nested quote +Also I believe he was referencing the Iraq War when he said that the US threw a country into civil war in the last decade, something which 1946 Cold War propaganda booklets have made no reference to, possibly due to the invasion of Iraq happening 57 years after they were printed. Please, don't ever again try to dissect what I write like this; it is embarrassing. I know precisely what he was referencing. I was replying to the first half of his post, regarding genocide and the CIA. I did not say anything about Iraq or Afghanistan because I mostly agree with him. See KwarK that's the problem with responding to posts that are responses to other people, not yourself; that's why I try to be direct and I don't mean direct as in forceful I mean direct as I don't treat my conversations as multiple-party enterprises; to me they are a series of 1-on-1 conversations. When I respond to you or anyone I am responding to you only and not someone else. I'm sure I fail at times of course. But please no more gotcha ambushes they are very silly :/
The thinly veiled insults you constantly throw out towards anyone who happens to disagree with you are what's embarassing. Since you started posting here in this thread the discussion quality has significantly gone down, to the point where I usually ignore any conversations threads/quotes involving you because they usually boil down to silly name-calling and, like I said, thinly veiled insults. It only seems to happen when you're involved, too, despite the fact that other conservatives do post here from time to time.
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Yeah, I think you may have taken Kwark's response a little too personally... It seemed quite reasonable to me. Now you've been able to explain yourself though so that's good 
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United States42685 Posts
Just to clarify DeepElmBlues, when you said you were referring to the first part of the post as being from Cold War propaganda from 1946 you mean the bit about the 1960s? Because the post you quoted to respond to read as follows
And boo-fucking-hoo about him being in jail because of a campaign pursued by the executive branch. You must have missed what the CIA has been doing since the 1960s. Our country has likely caused genocide in some cases, and we have thrown an entire country into war within the past decade. I'm certain journalists have been shot and killed with all the crap going on in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Now there are two things being referred to here. The first is what the CIA have done since the 60s, the second is the Iraq war. I suggested that it is ridiculous to imply that 1946 Soviet propaganda was referencing the Iraq war because the Iraq war happened some time after 1946. Your response to this appears to be that you didn't mean that the criticism of the Iraq war was regurgitating 1946 Soviet critiques (which would be absurd because the Iraq war happened after 1946) but rather the first part of the post, CIA intervention in and since the 60s, was a regurgitation of 1946 Soviet critiques. Unfortunately for your argument the 60s were also after 1946 and I sincerely doubt that any propaganda document written in 1946 construes a meaningful critique of events in the future. So unfortunately your defence of the "you're just repeating 1946 Soviet propaganda" claim still fails to explain how his critique of things that happened after 1946 is from 1946 as every part of his quote references events from after 1946, in the case of the 60s at least 14 years later.
Furthermore, my confusion as to which part of the quote which you selectively chose from his text you were referring to would be perhaps avoided if you narrowed it down to the bit you were actually referring to. When you copy a fragment of text in isolation to respond to the assumption that you were responding to that bit of text is normally a given. Given you chose to quote that fragment and respond to it in isolation I find it much more compelling that you genuinely did mean it as you presented it, that the critique of the Iraq war is based on 1946 Soviet propaganda. Obviously this is a silly argument which is why I called you out on it which is why you then retracted it for another argument which somehow made the exact same chronological mistake.
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On May 22 2013 04:36 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 02:37 renoB wrote:On May 22 2013 01:56 Hitch-22 wrote:On May 22 2013 00:57 Dapper_Cad wrote:On May 21 2013 21:46 aksfjh wrote:
And boo-fucking-hoo about him being in jail because of a campaign pursued by the executive branch. You must have missed what the CIA has been doing since the 1960s. Our country has likely caused genocide in some cases, and we have thrown an entire country into war within the past decade. I'm certain journalists have been shot and killed with all the crap going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Indeed, people shouldn't be butt hurt about massacres committed by U.S. troops in countries the U.S. isn't at war with. Massacres which the U.S. denies any involvement in which then get reported by foreign journalists who get put in Jail by a U.S. backed dictator who when on the verge of releasing said journalist get phone calls from Obama to keep them imprisoned. If only the journalist had the decency to be American. Or working for a syndicated news organisation. Or dead. Do me a favor and citation any massacre commited by US troops, citations required good sir. SourcePakistan
April 2013 actions
Total CIA strikes in April: 2
Total killed in strikes in April: 8-12, of whom 0 were reportedly civilians
All actions 2004 – April 30 2013
Total Obama strikes: 316
Total US strikes since 2004: 368
Total reported killed: 2,541-3,533
Civilians reported killed: 411-884
Children reported killed: 168-197
Total reported injured: 1,173-1,472
April 2013 actions
Confirmed US drone strikes: 1
Further reported/possible US strike events: 1
Total reported killed in US operations: 4-7
Civilians reported killed in US strikes: 0
Yemen
All actions 2002 – April 30 2013*
Confirmed US drone strikes: 44-54
Total reported killed: 232-333
Civilians reported killed: 12-47
Children reported killed: 2
Reported injured: 62-144
Possible extra US drone strikes: 78-96
Total reported killed: 277-445
Civilians reported killed: 27-50
Children reported killed: 9-10
Reported injured: 76-98
All other US covert operations: 12-76
Total reported killed: 148-366
Civilians reported killed: 60-87
Children reported killed: 25
Reported injured: 22-111
Somalia
April 2013 actions
Total reported US operations: 0
All actions 2007 – April 30 2013
US drone strikes: 3-9
Total reported killed: 7-27
Civilians reported killed: 0-15
Children reported killed: 0
Reported injured: 2-24
All other US covert operations: 7-14
Total reported killed: 47-143
Civilians reported killed: 7-42
Children reported killed: 1-3
Reported injured: 12-20 Details of the individual strikes are outlined in the links provided in the source link. Methodology - If you don't trust the site. Aren't there supposed to be more civilians than combatants killed in a massacre? Maybe I'm missing something, a 1:3 overall civilian:combatant death ratio does not seem to fit the definition of a massacre. A 1:3 ratio is how many times superior to the 20th century 10:1 ratio? I'm bad at math but that seems like a significant improvement at reducing "massacres" of civilians in bombings. Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 21:46 aksfjh wrote:
And boo-fucking-hoo about him being in jail because of a campaign pursued by the executive branch. You must have missed what the CIA has been doing since the 1960s. Our country has likely caused genocide in some cases, and we have thrown an entire country into war within the past decade. I'm certain journalists have been shot and killed with all the crap going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. God the never-ending regurgitation of stale NKVD agitprop never ends does it asgshsdh? Put down books written by Russians in 1946 please.
"An indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of people" is what I got from google for massacre. By the definition you could definitely say the civilians were targeted indiscriminately (despite there being an actual target), and there is needless to say a lot of civilians killed. Sounds like it fits the definition well, but its semantics. Tons of civilians were killed as collateral damage in countries we're not at war with. That was my underlying point to the post.
And as a side note, if you want to respond to me and only me, don't quote me in a forum, just pm me.
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Maybe they should just stop taxing corporations completely, it is so complex to plug all holes when corporations are operating in manny different countrys and its to easy for corporations to get anny profit or loss they want by aplying creative accounting.
Make the tax structure alot more simple,maybe instead just raise the sales tax and dont allow for the sale tax to be paid by the public (as is done now) , and/or maybe some other taxes like dividend tax or even the personal income tax wich could be rasied to make up for the coporate tax on profits (corporations should then raise their wages wich they could do since they safed on corporate tax)
the current system is not working at all and only keeping lawyers at work who contribute absolutely nothing towards the real economy..
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On May 22 2013 06:33 Rassy wrote:
Maybe they should just stop taxing corporations at all, it is so complex to plug all holes when corporations are operating in manny different countrys and its to easy for corporations to get anny profit or loss they want by aplying creative accounting.
Make the tax structure alot more simple,maybe instead just raise the sales tax and dont allow for the sale tax to be paid by the public (as is done now) , and maybe some other taxes like dividend tax or even the personal income tax could be rasied to make up for the coporate tax on profits (corporations should then raise their wages wich they could do since they safed on corporate tax)
the current system is not working at all and only keeping lawyers at work who contribute absolutely nothing towards the real economy..
Stopping taxation would be pretty rough for many countries. If they changed company taxation to sales taxation it would effectively change company structures and, dependong on how the new structure would look and the new law would look exactly, it could easily end up as quite a region locking mechanism (who would pay 20% sales tax to try and branch out the company when the effective corporate tax is about the same?).
furthermore, there are certain high processing items that would have its prices x-doubled (anything electronic as an example) unless we end up with actual crypt-to-grave companies which is quite a problematic notion to most (ethics, long term and coexistance with other companies are what states are there to protect.).
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