|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On November 07 2014 01:30 Rassy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 17:10 Alex1Sun wrote:I've recently been playing with publicly available statistics selecting random stats for developed and well-developing countries and comparing things, and this is what I have found out (intentional homicide rate adjusted to population and excluding military): ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U6OPG9h.png) I expected something along these lines, but not THAT drastic. Why do you think it is the case and what can be done about it? Well if you put it this way then it looks pretty bad (and it is pretty bad) Looking at your chart gives the impression that the usa together with niger are leading in intentional homicides,far above the rest of the pack. If you look at the full list and the full graph though,then you will see that usa is nr 111 out of 228 with a rate of 4,7 murders per 100k inhabitants. It is still far (75%) lower then most 3rd world countrys and only halve the murder rate of a country like rusia. What is the case here is a very misleading chart. @below:agree that the usa is doing poorly but I think there is a reason for that. Imo it is wrong to compare the usa with japan or Europe, a more apropiate comparison would be the ussr. The population of the usa is a mixed bag with a ton of immigrants coming from all over the world,this makes the social fabric in the usa weaker then it is in countrys with a more coherent population. The history of the usa has also to do with it I think,they had to fight harder to survive then most Europeans during that age. They are a bit tougher so to say and with that comes a higher murder rate. Because of the demographic differences between Canada and the Usa I think it is also wrong to compare those 2 when it comes to crime figures,even though it might be tempting because they are nabours.
You what?
You dont want to compare the US and Europe, both of which have plenty of immigration but you are ok with comparing it to Russia which isnt exactly known as a popular immigration destination.
The US had to fight hard to survive? You had 1 civil war. Do you really want people to list you the war torn history of the European continent? 1 civil war and no world wars fought on your soil, pff bunch of pussy amateurs.
The US has issues because your gun culture is beyond insane (from a viewpoint of the rest of the world). And yes the chart might be misleading if you view it in light of the entire world instead of just the west but I don't think saying "hey, we're better then most of Africa" is the level that the US should be aiming at.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
socioeconomic status is precisely why you see certain social breakdown numbers very high in the u.s.
|
On November 07 2014 02:04 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2014 01:30 Rassy wrote:On November 06 2014 17:10 Alex1Sun wrote:I've recently been playing with publicly available statistics selecting random stats for developed and well-developing countries and comparing things, and this is what I have found out (intentional homicide rate adjusted to population and excluding military): I expected something along these lines, but not THAT drastic. Why do you think it is the case and what can be done about it? Well if you put it this way then it looks pretty bad (and it is pretty bad) Looking at your chart gives the impression that the usa together with niger are leading in intentional homicides,far above the rest of the pack. If you look at the full list and the full graph though,then you will see that usa is nr 111 out of 228 with a rate of 4,7 murders per 100k inhabitants. It is still far (75%) lower then most 3rd world countrys and only halve the murder rate of a country like rusia. What is the case here is a very misleading chart. @below:agree that the usa is doing poorly but I think there is a reason for that. Imo it is wrong to compare the usa with japan or Europe, a more apropiate comparison would be the ussr. The population of the usa is a mixed bag with a ton of immigrants coming from all over the world,this makes the social fabric in the usa weaker then it is in countrys with a more coherent population. The history of the usa has also to do with it I think,they had to fight harder to survive then most Europeans during that age. They are a bit tougher so to say and with that comes a higher murder rate. Because of the demographic differences between Canada and the Usa I think it is also wrong to compare those 2 when it comes to crime figures,even though it might be tempting because they are nabours. You what? You dont want to compare the US and Europe, both of which have plenty of immigration but you are ok with comparing it to Russia which isnt exactly known as a popular immigration destination. The US had to fight hard to survive? You had 1 civil war. Do you really want people to list you the war torn history of the European continent? 1 civil war and no world wars fought on your soil, pff bunch of pussy amateurs. The US has issues because your gun culture is beyond insane (from a viewpoint of the rest of the world). And yes the chart might be misleading if you view it in light of the entire world instead of just the west but I don't think saying "hey, we're better then most of Africa" is the level that the US should be aiming at.
Well you are forgetting american independence war (it was quite small compared to several european wars) but you are right. Just look this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe
|
@below:agree that the usa is doing poorly but I think there is a reason for that.
Imo it is wrong to compare the usa with japan or Europe, a more apropiate comparison would be the ussr.
Compare a capitalistic democracy with a communistic dictatorship. Did i miss something? Funny enough, the US would look really bad compared to the USSR (bigger police-force, strict guncontrols, less drug-abuse). Not that it would make sense to compare these two, but still.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_Soviet_Union
The population of the usa is a mixed bag with a ton of immigrants coming from all over the world,this makes the social fabric in the usa weaker then it is in countrys with a more coherent population.
Which ones would that be? USA: 14% immigrants, Germany: 12%, Australia: 24%. (numbers are 2013, but still good enough to show that you pulled an argument out of thin air).
Because of the demographic differences between Canada and the Usa I think it is also wrong to compare those 2 when it comes to crime figures,even though it might be tempting because they are nabours.
Yeah, USSR is much more appropriate.
The history of the usa has also to do with it maybe. People had to fight and work harder then in Europe to survive.
You live in the netherlands, and have no idea about the history of the european continent? That's extremely sad. You should read up on it, people really didn't fight or work harder than europeans, it's the extreme opposite. That's why so many europeans immigrated to the US in the 17th-18th century.
I agree with oneofthem to some extend - it's one reason for it, but i won't start another gunregulation-debate here.
edit: unrelated sidenote, for me, on every page there's suddenly a large gap between the actual postings and my answer-box, is that website-related or is my chrome messing up?
|
On November 07 2014 02:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2014 02:04 Gorsameth wrote:On November 07 2014 01:30 Rassy wrote:On November 06 2014 17:10 Alex1Sun wrote:I've recently been playing with publicly available statistics selecting random stats for developed and well-developing countries and comparing things, and this is what I have found out (intentional homicide rate adjusted to population and excluding military): I expected something along these lines, but not THAT drastic. Why do you think it is the case and what can be done about it? Well if you put it this way then it looks pretty bad (and it is pretty bad) Looking at your chart gives the impression that the usa together with niger are leading in intentional homicides,far above the rest of the pack. If you look at the full list and the full graph though,then you will see that usa is nr 111 out of 228 with a rate of 4,7 murders per 100k inhabitants. It is still far (75%) lower then most 3rd world countrys and only halve the murder rate of a country like rusia. What is the case here is a very misleading chart. @below:agree that the usa is doing poorly but I think there is a reason for that. Imo it is wrong to compare the usa with japan or Europe, a more apropiate comparison would be the ussr. The population of the usa is a mixed bag with a ton of immigrants coming from all over the world,this makes the social fabric in the usa weaker then it is in countrys with a more coherent population. The history of the usa has also to do with it I think,they had to fight harder to survive then most Europeans during that age. They are a bit tougher so to say and with that comes a higher murder rate. Because of the demographic differences between Canada and the Usa I think it is also wrong to compare those 2 when it comes to crime figures,even though it might be tempting because they are nabours. You what? You dont want to compare the US and Europe, both of which have plenty of immigration but you are ok with comparing it to Russia which isnt exactly known as a popular immigration destination. The US had to fight hard to survive? You had 1 civil war. Do you really want people to list you the war torn history of the European continent? 1 civil war and no world wars fought on your soil, pff bunch of pussy amateurs. The US has issues because your gun culture is beyond insane (from a viewpoint of the rest of the world). And yes the chart might be misleading if you view it in light of the entire world instead of just the west but I don't think saying "hey, we're better then most of Africa" is the level that the US should be aiming at. Well you are forgetting american independence war (it was quite small compared to several european wars) but you are right. Just look this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe
Well there were the 'Indian Wars' 'Spanish American War, and 54-40 or fight. But yeah global history or even our own is not really an American strong point.
For instance plenty of people in the southwest complaining about Mexicans don't remember this map from not that long ago.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LPonIyN.png)
|
Well there were the 'Indian Wars' 'Spanish American War, and 54-40 or fight. But yeah global history or even our own is not really an American strong point.
No worries, same goes for younger generations in the EU.
|
On November 07 2014 04:13 m4ini wrote:
Which ones would that be? USA: 14% immigrants, Germany: 12%, Australia: 24%. (numbers are 2013, but still good enough to show that you pulled an argument out of thin air).
That's a silly comparison. The US is only 250 years old. By European cultural standards pretty much every American is an immigrant with a different cultural heritage. Even the American "non-immigrants" go back so few generations that they simply aren't comparable to European nations in terms of homogeneity.
|
On November 07 2014 04:26 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Well there were the 'Indian Wars' 'Spanish American War, and 54-40 or fight. But yeah global history or even our own is not really an American strong point. No worries, same goes for younger generations in the EU.
Not sure if that makes me feel better or more concerned...
|
On November 07 2014 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2014 04:13 m4ini wrote:
Which ones would that be? USA: 14% immigrants, Germany: 12%, Australia: 24%. (numbers are 2013, but still good enough to show that you pulled an argument out of thin air).
That's a silly comparison. The US is only 250 years old. By European cultural standards pretty much every American is an immigrant with a different cultural heritage. Even the American "non-immigrants" go back so few generations that they simply aren't comparable to European nations in terms of homogeneity.
That's so weird, i honestly don't even know how to respond to that.
Where exactly is the argument of yours? That basically everyone is an immigrant in the US, as long as you go back far enough?
Not sure if that makes me feel better or more concerned...
Well. You decide that, just wanted to share that "information". 
|
On November 07 2014 04:26 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Well there were the 'Indian Wars' 'Spanish American War, and 54-40 or fight. But yeah global history or even our own is not really an American strong point. No worries, same goes for younger generations in the EU.
I think it's opposite in Finland. Old people don't know nothing 
|
On November 07 2014 04:43 m4ini wrote:
That's so weird, i honestly don't even know how to respond to that.
Where exactly is the argument of yours? That basically everyone is an immigrant in the US, as long as you go back far enough?
My point is that even the original immigrant population is very diverse, and that this indeed does result in a weaker social net. Native Germans/British are not comparable to "native"(of European descent) Americans in terms of cultural diversity. Thus comparing the numbers is pretty useless.
Have you ever seen a Chinatown or a French Quarter in Germany? Most American cities are more diverse than what you're going to find here across the whole country.
|
On November 07 2014 04:46 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2014 04:43 m4ini wrote:
That's so weird, i honestly don't even know how to respond to that.
Where exactly is the argument of yours? That basically everyone is an immigrant in the US, as long as you go back far enough?
My point is that even the original immigrant population is very diverse, and that this indeed does result in a weaker social net. Native Germans/British are not comparable to "native"(of European descent) Americans in terms of cultural diversity. Thus comparing the numbers is pretty useless.
No, that's a red herring. Ask Dan in texas if he's american or an immigrant. You can put that argument on everything as long as you go back far enough. We're talking today. And america is pretty coherent in their views, so i'm not sure where you're trying to go with that non-argument. Apart from the obvious fact that you have as much cultural diversity in germany as you have in any other country (if not more). Especially after WW2 (small hint: Gastarbeiter and Truemmerfrauen, american/russian occupation and "culture").
Have you ever seen a Chinatown or a French Quarter in Germany? Most American cities are more diverse than what you're going to find here across the whole country.
Don't know if you're a Dorfkartoffel, but yes, obviously. Not just that, if i go out of my door, in a radius of roughly 500m i have a greek restaurant (led by greeks), a turkish Doenerbude (led by turks), a Pizzeria (led by an italian family), an asiacenter (led by chinese, i think, judging by the language that doesn't sound korean/japanese). You have entire streets specialising in, uhm, turkish/arabian foods/restaurants/Gemueselaeden/Teestuben. And that's just my town (Essen). I know for a fact that Dortmund, Duesseldorf and Koeln are the same.
It's not that bad in smalltowns like Hameln where i lived for two years, but every big city has those quarters, yes. Not chinese/french, but arabian/turkish. With the occasional asian street. Granted, i live in vincinity to the university, but still.
I think it's opposite in Finland. Old people don't know nothing
I actually shouldn't have said EU but germany. Because that's the only place i can actually see it, so sorry. :/
|
On November 06 2014 17:49 Velr wrote:
Its the combination of These things:
Lack of social System/loads of poor People ---> Just look at your Ghettos. These do not exist to that extend anywhere else in the western world. Your GDP might be high, but that doesn't do shit for the people at the bottom. "Inequality" not "poverty"is "driving" people into crime.
Loads of Guns --> Its way more likely that guns are involved into "disagreements" in the US than damn near anywhere else, therefore there is a higher chance of someone dieing in "fights".
Stand your Ground/Cowboy mentality or in short "culture" --> In western europe we tend to call the Cops if we spot a Burglar/Intruder. Most of us wouldn’t have the gun to actually "stand our ground" nor would I be willing to shoot someone just becaues he tries to rob me. Armed robberies are also incredibly rare here, 99% of burglars just flee once spotted...
Not sure about the inequality argument. Inequality has been rising and crime has been falling. Same for social systems. Crime was lower in the 50's and 60's and we mostly spent money on the military back then. I could see a relationship between crime and the disuse of mental hospitals though.
Also, I don't know of any US cities that are being terrorized by marauding hoards of evil clowns so we do beat W. Europe on at least one crime metric 
Guns are dangerous. Sure. Can't argue with that.
Stand your ground doesn't exist in all states. To my knowledge they're a fairly recent thing (Florida in 20005, well after crime started to fall). Not sure about the 'cowboy' mentality. Most people here call the cops too.
|
On November 07 2014 05:47 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 17:49 Velr wrote:
Its the combination of These things:
Lack of social System/loads of poor People ---> Just look at your Ghettos. These do not exist to that extend anywhere else in the western world. Your GDP might be high, but that doesn't do shit for the people at the bottom. "Inequality" not "poverty"is "driving" people into crime.
Loads of Guns --> Its way more likely that guns are involved into "disagreements" in the US than damn near anywhere else, therefore there is a higher chance of someone dieing in "fights".
Stand your Ground/Cowboy mentality or in short "culture" --> In western europe we tend to call the Cops if we spot a Burglar/Intruder. Most of us wouldn’t have the gun to actually "stand our ground" nor would I be willing to shoot someone just becaues he tries to rob me. Armed robberies are also incredibly rare here, 99% of burglars just flee once spotted... Not sure about the inequality argument. Inequality has been rising and crime has been falling. Same for social systems. Crime was lower in the 50's and 60's and we mostly spent money on the military back then. I could see a relationship between crime and the disuse of mental hospitals though. Also, I don't know of any US cities that are being terrorized by marauding hoards of evil clowns so we do beat W. Europe on at least one crime metric Guns are dangerous. Sure. Can't argue with that. Stand your ground doesn't exist in all states. To my knowledge they're a fairly recent thing (Florida in 20005, well after crime started to fall). Not sure about the 'cowboy' mentality. Most people here call the cops too.
It definitely varies by location, even within states. I live in Colorado and in the city where I live, I know maybe one or two people at most who would open-carry a firearm and fit the "cowboy" description he seems to be putting forth, but if you head out into the plains its a different matter entirely...and our state has a weird reputation as a result as an amalgamation of snowboarding, gun-toting, pot-smoking, active cowboys. It's a wild ride.
|
This whole 'poison the well' stuff on immigration seems silly.
What difference would it make in the legislation the Republicans plan on pushing?
|
|
|
In Mississippi they are tackling the real issues!
(I.) The State of Mississippi hereby acknowledges the fact of her identity as a principally Christian and quintessentially Southern state, in terms of the majority of her population, character, culture, history, and heritage, from 1817 to the present; accordingly, the Holy Bible is acknowledged as a foremost source of her founding principles, inspiration, and virtues; and, accordingly, prayer is acknowledged as a respected, meaningful, and valuable custom of her citizens. The acknowledgments hereby secured shall not be construed to transgress either the national or the state Constitution’s Bill of Rights.
(II.) English shall be the official language of the State of Mississippi. All governmental or public non-emergency or non-judicial services, functions, or communications in Mississippi shall be rendered in the English language only, except for specific foreign language instruction in public schools, and except for the option of Latin or French for jurisprudence, medicine, heraldry, and other traditional uses.
...Wherever the national flag is displayed on public land or in public buildings, a state flag of equal size shall also be displayed. In Mississippi public schools and other public institutions, whenever the pledge of allegiance to the national flag is recited, the state flag salute shall be recited immediately thereafter. The state flag salute shall be: “I salute the flag of Mississippi and the sovereign state for which it stands with pride in her history and achievements and with confidence in her future under the guidance of Almighty God.”
Source
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i'm not sure what obama will do for the last two years but i hope he gets back on the community activism horse and really revive progressivism in the american style of directly engaging with communities and closing the distance between suburban fortress mentality and the ghettos. the most signficant thing obama did politically is the grassroots machine he motivated. this does not have to be limited to electoral politics.
|
On November 07 2014 04:27 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2014 04:13 m4ini wrote:
Which ones would that be? USA: 14% immigrants, Germany: 12%, Australia: 24%. (numbers are 2013, but still good enough to show that you pulled an argument out of thin air).
That's a silly comparison. The US is only 250 years old. By European cultural standards pretty much every American is an immigrant with a different cultural heritage. Even the American "non-immigrants" go back so few generations that they simply aren't comparable to European nations in terms of homogeneity.
This is true, and it understates the case. When we did it in my high school class, I was the only white person in the room who didn't primarily trace back to an immigrant wave (or several) since the 1850s or so (Slave trade was the big "immigration" wave for black people, and was outlawed in the early 1800s, so the average black person has much deeper roots than the average white person in the USA.). So for most Americans, that's not a lot of generations. Even "white" Americans often think of themselves as being in one or another ethnic subgroup. Irish, Scottish, Pennsylvania Dutch, actual Dutch, white Hispanic (often further self-defining by country)... Hell, for the part of my growing up I did in the US, I knew immigrants or children of immigrants from every continent but Antarctica. It's not sheer numbers, it's the incredible diversity.
And for people who say, so what, this stuff doesn't matter: actually do your the math. Do a map of ethnically homogeneous countries against a map of low-crime countries. Ethnic diversity is great for culture; it's also terrible for crime stats. Speculate on the causes all you want; but places with large (and especially recent) minorities have a lot more social division and crime. For it's diversity, the US is remarkably good in all of this.
And, as everybody's pointing out, the situation of US blacks is unique among first world countries. It will be interesting as India and Brazil develop to see how other countries that once depended on an enslaved race (or set of races) are able to join the modern world.
|
On November 07 2014 05:47 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 17:49 Velr wrote:
Its the combination of These things:
Lack of social System/loads of poor People ---> Just look at your Ghettos. These do not exist to that extend anywhere else in the western world. Your GDP might be high, but that doesn't do shit for the people at the bottom. "Inequality" not "poverty"is "driving" people into crime.
Loads of Guns --> Its way more likely that guns are involved into "disagreements" in the US than damn near anywhere else, therefore there is a higher chance of someone dieing in "fights".
Stand your Ground/Cowboy mentality or in short "culture" --> In western europe we tend to call the Cops if we spot a Burglar/Intruder. Most of us wouldn’t have the gun to actually "stand our ground" nor would I be willing to shoot someone just becaues he tries to rob me. Armed robberies are also incredibly rare here, 99% of burglars just flee once spotted... Not sure about the inequality argument. Inequality has been rising and crime has been falling. Same for social systems. Crime was lower in the 50's and 60's and we mostly spent money on the military back then. I could see a relationship between crime and the disuse of mental hospitals though.
That IS actually an interesting observation. As far as I know the recent rise of inequality in USA can be mostly attributed to stagnation of income for a median worker and hollowing out of the middle class. At the same time republicans claim that those near poverty now benefit from more welfare than ever. If this claim is correct, then murders seem to be correlated with the living conditions at the very bottom of the economic ladder rather than with inequality in general. This also appears to agree with low murder rate in European South, where despite rampant unemployment and substantial poverty, being poor and unemployed does NOT usually equal being homeless.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
