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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1406

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 05 2014 23:05 GMT
#28101
ST. LOUIS (AP) — A judge overturned Missouri's ban on gay marriage on Wednesday in a ruling that could add the state to a growing list of those where same-sex marriages are legal.

St. Louis Circuit Judge Rex Burlison, who heard arguments on Sept. 29, determined the law is unconstitutional.

The city of St. Louis issued a handful of marriage licenses to same-sex couples in June, setting up a court case over the state's 2004 constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. Assistant Attorney General Jeremiah Morgan argued that 71 percent of Missourians voted for the referendum defining marriage as between a man and a woman, and he said the U.S. Supreme Court has time and again allowed states to define marriage.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
November 05 2014 23:14 GMT
#28102
On November 06 2014 08:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 07:06 Doublemint wrote:
On November 06 2014 06:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 06:28 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm a little baffled by the fact how low Obama's popularity is. The economy looks like its in pretty good shape and the healthcare reform was at least an improvement I guess, why is he so unpopular?

Not by US standards

Growth has been below trend and real wage growth non-existent. Heathcare has seen some improvements, yes, but those improvements do not affect the vast majority of people.


Well, by that metric Obama is in good company with the likes of Carter, Reagan, both Bushs' and Clinton.

http://www.businessinsider.com/real-wages-decline-literally-no-one-notices-2013-6

heh, good catch

Previously wage growth was eaten up by benefit hikes. The last cycle has just been a crummy labor market with no real compensation growth at all. Nominal wage growth has been dismal as well, which matters insofar as debts are concerned.

Nominal wage growth also helps mentally. It "feels" like you're getting a raise even if it's only keeping with inflation (or even slightly eaten by).
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
November 05 2014 23:32 GMT
#28103
President Barack Obama said he is eager to work with the new Congress to make the next few years as productive as possible, but he said he expects them to disagree on some key issues.
In his first appearance since the Republican party reclaimed control of the Senate, Obama said that the U.S. government must focus on the American people and "get stuff done."

"Congress will pass bills that I cannot sign, and I'm pretty sure I will take some actions that Congress will not like," he said, adding that both parties should be able to find ways to work together on issues where there's broad agreement among the American public.

Obama reaffirmed he will not sign a repeal of Affordable Care Act; it's working, he said, noting "You've got Republican governors that have concluded that it's a good deal for their state."

Despite some of the previous predictions, he said, "Health-care inflation has gone down every single year since the law passed." He did say that he would listen if Congress has ideas about how to improve the law.

"The individual mandate is a line I can't cross," he said. You can't ensure that people with pre-existing conditions will get health care if they're not required to sign up before they get sick, Obama said. It's an essential component of the law.

"Don't worry about the next election, don't worry about party associations," but worry about the concerns of the American citizens, he said, citing student loan debt, minimum wage and job growth as key concerns.


Source
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
November 05 2014 23:44 GMT
#28104
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
ey215
Profile Joined June 2010
United States546 Posts
November 05 2014 23:49 GMT
#28105
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.


I don't know, if you couple it with lowering the amount of federal dollars going to campuses that has facilitated the huge growth in administration and cost of college you might get some takers in the GOP.


{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 05 2014 23:50 GMT
#28106
Leaders of some of the most prominent tea party and conservative-aligned outside groups gathered for a press conference on Wednesday to take a post-GOP-now-controls-the-Senate victory lap. But they also had a much less cheerful message for the new Republican Senate majority: we're watching you.

They all argued that the GOP gains in the Senate, House, and state legislatures were because candidates ran on tea party principles, even when those candidates weren't aligned or even were the targets of tea party groups.

"For Republican leaders Speaker in the House John Boehner and presumed-Majority Leader-to-be Mitch McConnell in the Senate I have two words: earn this. Live up to your promises," said Tea Party Patriots National Coordinator Jenny Beth Martin.

"Repeal Obamacare. Use reconciliation to pass a bill repealing Obamacare. Put it on the president's desk. Let him veto it and draw a line in the sand," Martin continued. "Secure the border and block the president's planned executive amnesty. Maintain the rule of law and prove that we as a country, as we have been for more than two centuries, are a nation of laws and not of men."

Martin said during the celebrations over Republican victories in the midterms she had "reason for concern" because of a press release from Boehner's (R-OH) office.

"In this release, Speaker Boehner lays out an agenda for the 114th Congress," Martin said. "Obamacare is mentioned nowhere. Neither is securing the borders nor blocking the President's planned executive amnesty."

"If Obamacare and fighting Obama's immigration reform plans were purposely omitted, Martin said, "the Speaker needs to make that clear immediately, by issuing a revised release today on the agenda for the next Congress that includes the these important issues," Martin said.

Later on in the press conference ForAmerica Chairman Brent Bozell made a similar warning when he responded to a question about immigration reform.

"Republicans all campaigned against it. Promises are promises, Bozell said. If they move from their opposition to it, Bozell said, "then they are guilty of it as well but even worse, they will have lied to the constituents that put them into office so I would hope that the president wouldn't meet but if he does I would expect the Republicans to stand up to him and the first thing they could do is tell the president 'we're not going to fund your lawlessness."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 05 2014 23:50 GMT
#28107
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the student loan system. What needs to change is for states to stop cutting university funding by either raising taxes or finding savings elsewhere.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21766 Posts
November 05 2014 23:58 GMT
#28108
"Repeal Obamacare. Use reconciliation to pass a bill repealing Obamacare. Put it on the president's desk. Let him veto it and draw a line in the sand,"

... Really?
You need a line in the sand? The giant trench that has been dug for the last ~4 years isnt good enough for you? You wanne add a line to it?
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
November 06 2014 00:10 GMT
#28109
On November 06 2014 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the student loan system. What needs to change is for states to stop cutting university funding by either raising taxes or finding savings elsewhere.

Prison reform.

Since the 80s, far too much of state budgets have gone towards maintaining a private prison industry.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 06 2014 00:13 GMT
#28110
On November 06 2014 09:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the student loan system. What needs to change is for states to stop cutting university funding by either raising taxes or finding savings elsewhere.

Prison reform.

Since the 80s, far too much of state budgets have gone towards maintaining a private prison industry.

Well, the private prison industry is only a small fraction of the prison system. I agree that we need fewer people in jail though. Prison populations are expected to keep falling along with the crime rate, so there's that at least.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
November 06 2014 00:22 GMT
#28111
On November 06 2014 09:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 09:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the student loan system. What needs to change is for states to stop cutting university funding by either raising taxes or finding savings elsewhere.

Prison reform.

Since the 80s, far too much of state budgets have gone towards maintaining a private prison industry.

Well, the private prison industry is only a small fraction of the prison system. I agree that we need fewer people in jail though. Prison populations are expected to keep falling along with the crime rate, so there's that at least.

violet crime rates have been falling since the what, the 80s? The war on drugs industrial complex needs to be drastically re-organized and the prison issue will decline. God forbid that prisoners are actually reformed and given a chance to move past the life of crime, that will never happen in a society as concerned with the moral punishment as the poor as America but at least turning some black kid with a dime bag of weed into a career criminal because some police department needs to meet its quota will be a massive positive change.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23291 Posts
November 06 2014 00:26 GMT
#28112
On November 06 2014 09:22 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 09:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 09:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the student loan system. What needs to change is for states to stop cutting university funding by either raising taxes or finding savings elsewhere.

Prison reform.

Since the 80s, far too much of state budgets have gone towards maintaining a private prison industry.

Well, the private prison industry is only a small fraction of the prison system. I agree that we need fewer people in jail though. Prison populations are expected to keep falling along with the crime rate, so there's that at least.

violet crime rates have been falling since the what, the 80s? The war on drugs industrial complex needs to be drastically re-organized and the prison issue will decline. God forbid that prisoners are actually reformed and given a chance to move past the life of crime, that will never happen in a society as concerned with the moral punishment as the poor as America but at least turning some black kid with a dime bag of weed into a career criminal because some police department needs to meet its quota will be a massive positive change.


Yeah Cannabis is now legal in more places and yet there's Texas trying to lock people up for life... Has to be one of the dumbest things happening in the country at the moment. Not the worst, just one of the dumbest.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-06 00:38:09
November 06 2014 00:27 GMT
#28113
On November 06 2014 09:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 09:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the student loan system. What needs to change is for states to stop cutting university funding by either raising taxes or finding savings elsewhere.

Prison reform.

Since the 80s, far too much of state budgets have gone towards maintaining a private prison industry.

Well, the private prison industry is only a small fraction of the prison system. I agree that we need fewer people in jail though. Prison populations are expected to keep falling along with the crime rate, so there's that at least.

Private prisons yes, but there are now numerous industries surrounding the maintenance of prisons.

The issue with US prisons now are the incredibly high recidivism rate (there are numerous studies about ex-convict discrimination in hiring post-prison, especially racially, which all exacerbate their inability to reintegrate).

If it's just to reduce the number of persons imprisoned, there's the removal of mandatory sentencing, a review of of War on Drugs, and a new focus on reducing redicivism by preparing and supporting inmates for re-entry into society are on the agenda.

This will probably be the next significant bipartisan reform we'll see in this country, actually (much as both the left and right came together to "get tough on crime", which started the bloating of US prisons in the 70s and particularly the 80s, there's a growing movement to fix the system itself from across the spectrum).

It's a year old, but it's still fairly accurate.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21583701-america-waking-up-cost-mass-incarceration-unlikely-alliance-left-and

+ Show Spoiler +
ERIC HOLDER and Rick Perry (pictured) have little in common. America’s attorney-general is black, liberal and uses the word “community” a lot. The governor of Texas is white, conservative and says “God” a lot. Last month Mr Holder’s Justice Department sued Texas for allegedly trying to make it harder for blacks to vote. Last year Mr Perry ran to unseat Mr Holder’s boss, Barack Obama.

On one thing, however, the two men agree. On August 12th Mr Holder said: “Too many Americans go to too many prisons for far too long, and for no truly good law-enforcement reason.” He then unveiled reforms to reduce the number of people sent to America’s overcrowded federal prisons. In this, he was following the perfectly-coiffed Texan’s lead. Several years ago, Mr Perry enacted similar reforms in the Lone Star State, and they worked.

America has the world’s largest prison population. China, which has more than four times as many people and nobody’s idea of a lenient judiciary, comes a distant second. One in 107 American adults was behind bars in 2011—the highest rate in the world—and one in every 34 was under “correctional supervision” (either locked up or on probation or parole). A black man in America is 3.6 times more likely to be incarcerated than a black man in 1993 in South Africa, just before apartheid ended.

Granted, the number of Americans under lock and key has fallen since 2008, but only from 2.31m to 2.24m. And that slight dip comes after a mammoth rise: between 1980 and 2008, the number of incarcerated Americans more than tripled.

In the federal prison system, for which Mr Holder is responsible, the rise has been even more dramatic (see chart). From the 1940s to the early 1980s the federal prison population remained relatively stable, at around 24,000. But then came the crack epidemic, to which Congress responded with mandatory-minimum sentences.

A first-time offender convicted of possessing five grams of crack, for instance, received a mandatory-minimum sentence of five years. Conviction as part of a “continuing criminal enterprise” triggered a 20-year mandatory-minimum. Conspiracy laws made all members of a drug operation legally liable for all the operation’s crimes: a youngster whom drug dealers paid a few dollars a day to act as a lookout, for instance, could be hit with the same stiff penalties as his bosses. In 1994 Congress introduced a “safety-valve”, which allowed judges to ignore mandatory minimums for certain non-violent informants, but its stringent terms disqualify most people convicted of drug-related offences.

Drug offenders are nearly half of all federal prisoners, and most people convicted of federal drug offences received mandatory-minimum sentences. Since 1980 the federal prison population has soared from 24,000 to 219,000; between 1980 and 2013 the federal Bureau of Prisons budget rose by almost 600% in real terms. Federal prisons today house nearly 40% more inmates than they were designed for. Meanwhile, America’s violent-crime rate is less than one-third what it was in 1982, and less than half what it was in 1997.

[image loading]

Some argue that prison works. The reason crime has fallen so sharply, they say, is that bad guys who are locked up cannot mug you. This is true, but America long ago passed the point where imprisoning more people is a cost-effective way of reducing crime. Bert Useem of Purdue University and Anne Morrison Piehl of Rutgers University find “accelerating declining marginal returns” to incarceration in America. In other words, locking up violent criminals while they are young, strong and reckless does indeed keep the streets safer, but keeping them locked up deep into their dotage costs a fortune and prevents very few crimes.

It is also unfair. Harsh, inflexible sentencing rules inflict punishments that no reasonable judge would impose. Jack Carpenter, for example, sold medical marijuana to dispensaries in California, where it is legal, but was still sentenced to ten years in prison by a federal judge.

[image loading]

The high cost of mass incarceration has attracted attention from both left and right. In March Rand Paul, a Republican senator, and Patrick Leahy, a Democratic one, introduced the Justice Safety-Valve Act of 2013, which would let judges impose sentences below the mandatory minimum. In July Mr Leahy, along with Dick Durbin and Mike Lee, a Democrat from Illinois and a Republican from Utah, introduced the Smarter Sentencing Act of 2013. It would, among other things, shorten mandatory minimums and expand the safety-valve.

And this week, in a speech before the American Bar Association, Mr Holder announced a clutch of reforms. More elderly federal inmates are to be released early. More effort will be made to help ex-convicts re-enter society, in the hope that this will curb re-offending. Pointless rules making it harder for ex-cons to find homes or jobs will be reconsidered. And most important, low-level, non-violent drug offenders without ties to gangs or cartels will no longer be charged with crimes that trigger mandatory minimums.

Texas won’t hold ’em

As Mr Holder noted, these policy shifts mirror similar ones that more than half of all American states have enacted over the past decade. The wave began with Texas—then as now led by Mr Perry—which in 2003 passed a law sending people convicted of possessing less than a gram of drugs to probation rather than prison. In 2007 Texas allocated $241m for drug-treatment and alternatives to prison for non-violent offenders. Between 2003 and 2011 violent crime in Texas fell by 14.2%. The state’s prison population has also declined steadily. Sentencing reform passed in Georgia—where one in 13 adults is imprisoned, on probation or on parole—will save the state an estimated $264m over the next five years. Kentucky’s is forecast to save the state $400m while reducing its prison population by 3,000 over the next ten years.

It is not clear how many sentences Mr Holder’s reforms will shorten or how much money they will save. Although the federal prison system is larger than that of any single state, it holds only 10% of American prisoners. Mr Holder has not changed any sentencing laws; he has ordered federal prosecutors to circumvent them. Some people object: Bob Goodlatte, the Republican chair of the House Judiciary Committee, chided Mr Holder for “selectively enforcing our laws and attempting to change them through executive fiat”.

Others say Mr Holder has simply exercised his prosecutorial discretion humanely. Molly Gill of Families Against Mandatory Minimums, a pressure group, says that after years of campaigning against discretion-free mandatory sentences, it feels at last as though her group is “pushing against an open door”. And “open door” is not a phrase you often hear in the same breath as “American prisons”.


There's already been several promising steps taken in the past few years. The Fair Sentencing Act (2010) has, among other things, reduced the 100:1 weight ratio disparity in sentencing for crack cocaine possession vs. powder cocaine possession (in effect since the death of Len Bias) reduced the sentencing disparity down to a "mere" 18:1 ratio.

Still alot of work to be done, but it's a start.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-06 00:42:02
November 06 2014 00:38 GMT
#28114
On November 06 2014 09:22 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 09:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 09:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the student loan system. What needs to change is for states to stop cutting university funding by either raising taxes or finding savings elsewhere.

Prison reform.

Since the 80s, far too much of state budgets have gone towards maintaining a private prison industry.

Well, the private prison industry is only a small fraction of the prison system. I agree that we need fewer people in jail though. Prison populations are expected to keep falling along with the crime rate, so there's that at least.

violet crime rates have been falling since the what, the 80s? The war on drugs industrial complex needs to be drastically re-organized and the prison issue will decline. God forbid that prisoners are actually reformed and given a chance to move past the life of crime, that will never happen in a society as concerned with the moral punishment as the poor as America but at least turning some black kid with a dime bag of weed into a career criminal because some police department needs to meet its quota will be a massive positive change.

Violent crime peaked in the early 90's and prison populations peaked a few years ago. I agree that more should be done, but I don't find the 'industrial complex' rhetoric productive.

On November 06 2014 09:27 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 09:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 09:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the student loan system. What needs to change is for states to stop cutting university funding by either raising taxes or finding savings elsewhere.

Prison reform.

Since the 80s, far too much of state budgets have gone towards maintaining a private prison industry.

Well, the private prison industry is only a small fraction of the prison system. I agree that we need fewer people in jail though. Prison populations are expected to keep falling along with the crime rate, so there's that at least.

+ Show Spoiler +
Private prisons yes, but there are now numerous industries surrounding the maintenance of prisons.

The issue with US prisons now are the incredibly high recidivism rate (there are numerous studies about ex-convict discrimination in hiring post-prison, especially racially, which all exacerbate their inability to reintegrate).

If it's just to reduce the number of persons imprisoned, there's the removal of mandatory sentencing, a review of of War on Drugs, and a new focus on reducing redicivism by preparing and supporting inmates for re-entry into society are on the agenda.

This will probably be the next significant bipartisan reform we'll see in this country, actually (much as both the left and right came together to "get tough on crime", which started the bloating of US prisons in the 70s and particularly the 80s, there's a growing movement to fix the system itself from across the spectrum).

It's a year old, but it's still fairly accurate.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21583701-america-waking-up-cost-mass-incarceration-unlikely-alliance-left-and

+ Show Spoiler +
ERIC HOLDER and Rick Perry (pictured) have little in common. America’s attorney-general is black, liberal and uses the word “community” a lot. The governor of Texas is white, conservative and says “God” a lot. Last month Mr Holder’s Justice Department sued Texas for allegedly trying to make it harder for blacks to vote. Last year Mr Perry ran to unseat Mr Holder’s boss, Barack Obama.

On one thing, however, the two men agree. On August 12th Mr Holder said: “Too many Americans go to too many prisons for far too long, and for no truly good law-enforcement reason.” He then unveiled reforms to reduce the number of people sent to America’s overcrowded federal prisons. In this, he was following the perfectly-coiffed Texan’s lead. Several years ago, Mr Perry enacted similar reforms in the Lone Star State, and they worked.

America has the world’s largest prison population. China, which has more than four times as many people and nobody’s idea of a lenient judiciary, comes a distant second. One in 107 American adults was behind bars in 2011—the highest rate in the world—and one in every 34 was under “correctional supervision” (either locked up or on probation or parole). A black man in America is 3.6 times more likely to be incarcerated than a black man in 1993 in South Africa, just before apartheid ended.

Granted, the number of Americans under lock and key has fallen since 2008, but only from 2.31m to 2.24m. And that slight dip comes after a mammoth rise: between 1980 and 2008, the number of incarcerated Americans more than tripled.

In the federal prison system, for which Mr Holder is responsible, the rise has been even more dramatic (see chart). From the 1940s to the early 1980s the federal prison population remained relatively stable, at around 24,000. But then came the crack epidemic, to which Congress responded with mandatory-minimum sentences.

A first-time offender convicted of possessing five grams of crack, for instance, received a mandatory-minimum sentence of five years. Conviction as part of a “continuing criminal enterprise” triggered a 20-year mandatory-minimum. Conspiracy laws made all members of a drug operation legally liable for all the operation’s crimes: a youngster whom drug dealers paid a few dollars a day to act as a lookout, for instance, could be hit with the same stiff penalties as his bosses. In 1994 Congress introduced a “safety-valve”, which allowed judges to ignore mandatory minimums for certain non-violent informants, but its stringent terms disqualify most people convicted of drug-related offences.

Drug offenders are nearly half of all federal prisoners, and most people convicted of federal drug offences received mandatory-minimum sentences. Since 1980 the federal prison population has soared from 24,000 to 219,000; between 1980 and 2013 the federal Bureau of Prisons budget rose by almost 600% in real terms. Federal prisons today house nearly 40% more inmates than they were designed for. Meanwhile, America’s violent-crime rate is less than one-third what it was in 1982, and less than half what it was in 1997.

[image loading]

Some argue that prison works. The reason crime has fallen so sharply, they say, is that bad guys who are locked up cannot mug you. This is true, but America long ago passed the point where imprisoning more people is a cost-effective way of reducing crime. Bert Useem of Purdue University and Anne Morrison Piehl of Rutgers University find “accelerating declining marginal returns” to incarceration in America. In other words, locking up violent criminals while they are young, strong and reckless does indeed keep the streets safer, but keeping them locked up deep into their dotage costs a fortune and prevents very few crimes.

It is also unfair. Harsh, inflexible sentencing rules inflict punishments that no reasonable judge would impose. Jack Carpenter, for example, sold medical marijuana to dispensaries in California, where it is legal, but was still sentenced to ten years in prison by a federal judge.

[image loading]

The high cost of mass incarceration has attracted attention from both left and right. In March Rand Paul, a Republican senator, and Patrick Leahy, a Democratic one, introduced the Justice Safety-Valve Act of 2013, which would let judges impose sentences below the mandatory minimum. In July Mr Leahy, along with Dick Durbin and Mike Lee, a Democrat from Illinois and a Republican from Utah, introduced the Smarter Sentencing Act of 2013. It would, among other things, shorten mandatory minimums and expand the safety-valve.

And this week, in a speech before the American Bar Association, Mr Holder announced a clutch of reforms. More elderly federal inmates are to be released early. More effort will be made to help ex-convicts re-enter society, in the hope that this will curb re-offending. Pointless rules making it harder for ex-cons to find homes or jobs will be reconsidered. And most important, low-level, non-violent drug offenders without ties to gangs or cartels will no longer be charged with crimes that trigger mandatory minimums.

Texas won’t hold ’em

As Mr Holder noted, these policy shifts mirror similar ones that more than half of all American states have enacted over the past decade. The wave began with Texas—then as now led by Mr Perry—which in 2003 passed a law sending people convicted of possessing less than a gram of drugs to probation rather than prison. In 2007 Texas allocated $241m for drug-treatment and alternatives to prison for non-violent offenders. Between 2003 and 2011 violent crime in Texas fell by 14.2%. The state’s prison population has also declined steadily. Sentencing reform passed in Georgia—where one in 13 adults is imprisoned, on probation or on parole—will save the state an estimated $264m over the next five years. Kentucky’s is forecast to save the state $400m while reducing its prison population by 3,000 over the next ten years.

It is not clear how many sentences Mr Holder’s reforms will shorten or how much money they will save. Although the federal prison system is larger than that of any single state, it holds only 10% of American prisoners. Mr Holder has not changed any sentencing laws; he has ordered federal prosecutors to circumvent them. Some people object: Bob Goodlatte, the Republican chair of the House Judiciary Committee, chided Mr Holder for “selectively enforcing our laws and attempting to change them through executive fiat”.

Others say Mr Holder has simply exercised his prosecutorial discretion humanely. Molly Gill of Families Against Mandatory Minimums, a pressure group, says that after years of campaigning against discretion-free mandatory sentences, it feels at last as though her group is “pushing against an open door”. And “open door” is not a phrase you often hear in the same breath as “American prisons”.


There's already been several promising steps taken in the past few years. The Fair Sentencing Act (2010) has, among other things, reduced the 100:1 weight ratio disparity in sentencing for crack cocaine possession vs. powder cocaine possession (in effect since the death of Len Bias) reduced the sentencing disparity down to a "mere" 18:1 ratio.


Still alot of work to be done, but it's a start.


True dat.
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-06 00:47:58
November 06 2014 00:45 GMT
#28115
On November 06 2014 09:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 09:22 Sub40APM wrote:
On November 06 2014 09:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 09:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the student loan system. What needs to change is for states to stop cutting university funding by either raising taxes or finding savings elsewhere.

Prison reform.

Since the 80s, far too much of state budgets have gone towards maintaining a private prison industry.

Well, the private prison industry is only a small fraction of the prison system. I agree that we need fewer people in jail though. Prison populations are expected to keep falling along with the crime rate, so there's that at least.

violet crime rates have been falling since the what, the 80s? The war on drugs industrial complex needs to be drastically re-organized and the prison issue will decline. God forbid that prisoners are actually reformed and given a chance to move past the life of crime, that will never happen in a society as concerned with the moral punishment as the poor as America but at least turning some black kid with a dime bag of weed into a career criminal because some police department needs to meet its quota will be a massive positive change.

Violent crime peaked in the early 90's and prison populations peaked a few years ago. I agree that more should be done, but I don't find the 'industrial complex' rhetoric productive.

Bit of a correction but:

Violent crime reporting peaked in the 90s, and indeed the reporting of crime in general increased through the ~60s onwards. How much of the increase in crime and violent crime from the 60s onwards is a result of increasing awareness and reporting as opposed to "actual" increase is still debated in academic circles, and how much of it can also be attributed to the War on Drugs is also subject to debate.

Prison populations peaked a few years ago because there's been federal and state level reform aimed at shrinking the massive size and cost of the US prison system.

Thankfully people are no longer hysterically committed to being "tough on crime" like they were in the 80s and 90s against all rhyme and reason.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
November 06 2014 01:15 GMT
#28116
On November 06 2014 06:28 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm a little baffled by the fact how low Obama's popularity is. The economy looks like its in pretty good shape and the healthcare reform was at least an improvement I guess, why is he so unpopular?


You get judged as a politician (hell, as a person) by your ability to live up to your promises. Obama promised:

1) Healthcare reform without a mandate (remember, this was the one policy difference between him and Hillary)
2) Closing Gitmo
3) Closing down the survellance state
4) Generally running the war on terror decently
5) Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan with honor (how did we fail both criteria? I thought it was an either/or)
6) Vague promises about gun control, race relations, and a lot of other things.
and most importantly...
7) Ending partisan gridlock. (lol. gjwp)

Healthcare reform is the one thing he managed, and he botched it horribly. Gitmo was an afternoon of work.
Well, I guess you can sorta count pulling out of Iraq, but that really didn't last all too long.

Don't get me wrong, he ain't worse than Bush, but as my Vermont friends point out, when you're debating the merits of the smell of horse shit against cow shit, you're just shuffling shit.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 06 2014 01:22 GMT
#28117
nobody really cares about any of that. it's just the economy
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Lord Tolkien
Profile Joined November 2012
United States12083 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-06 01:24:26
November 06 2014 01:23 GMT
#28118
On November 06 2014 10:15 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 06:28 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm a little baffled by the fact how low Obama's popularity is. The economy looks like its in pretty good shape and the healthcare reform was at least an improvement I guess, why is he so unpopular?


You get judged as a politician (hell, as a person) by your ability to live up to your promises. Obama promised:

1) Healthcare reform without a mandate (remember, this was the one policy difference between him and Hillary)
2) Closing Gitmo
3) Closing down the survellance state
4) Generally running the war on terror decently
5) Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan with honor (how did we fail both criteria? I thought it was an either/or)
6) Vague promises about gun control, race relations, and a lot of other things.
and most importantly...
7) Ending partisan gridlock. (lol. gjwp)

Healthcare reform is the one thing he managed, and he botched it horribly. Gitmo was an afternoon of work.
Well, I guess you can sorta count pulling out of Iraq, but that really didn't last all too long.

Don't get me wrong, he ain't worse than Bush, but as my Vermont friends point out, when you're debating the merits of the smell of horse shit against cow shit, you're just shuffling shit.

Would also point out that he made numerous promises to immigrant and minority groups on immigration reform and still hasn't delivered (indeed, his policy on the border and undocumented migrants has been the exact opposite of what he's promised in both 2008 and 2012).

His foreign policy has also had some pretty glaring failings, most notably not intervening in Syria early (when we had a chance to avert the civil war), which would've probably averted the whole re-engagement into Iraq and ISIL affair we've got going on right now.
"His father is pretty juicy tbh." ~WaveofShadow
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 06 2014 01:29 GMT
#28119
On November 06 2014 09:45 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 09:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 09:22 Sub40APM wrote:
On November 06 2014 09:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 09:10 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 06 2014 08:44 farvacola wrote:
I would love to see some Republicans get behind student debt reform. I don't see that as very likely though.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the student loan system. What needs to change is for states to stop cutting university funding by either raising taxes or finding savings elsewhere.

Prison reform.

Since the 80s, far too much of state budgets have gone towards maintaining a private prison industry.

Well, the private prison industry is only a small fraction of the prison system. I agree that we need fewer people in jail though. Prison populations are expected to keep falling along with the crime rate, so there's that at least.

violet crime rates have been falling since the what, the 80s? The war on drugs industrial complex needs to be drastically re-organized and the prison issue will decline. God forbid that prisoners are actually reformed and given a chance to move past the life of crime, that will never happen in a society as concerned with the moral punishment as the poor as America but at least turning some black kid with a dime bag of weed into a career criminal because some police department needs to meet its quota will be a massive positive change.

Violent crime peaked in the early 90's and prison populations peaked a few years ago. I agree that more should be done, but I don't find the 'industrial complex' rhetoric productive.

Bit of a correction but:

Violent crime reporting peaked in the 90s, and indeed the reporting of crime in general increased through the ~60s onwards. How much of the increase in crime and violent crime from the 60s onwards is a result of increasing awareness and reporting as opposed to "actual" increase is still debated in academic circles, and how much of it can also be attributed to the War on Drugs is also subject to debate.

Prison populations peaked a few years ago because there's been federal and state level reform aimed at shrinking the massive size and cost of the US prison system.

Thankfully people are no longer hysterically committed to being "tough on crime" like they were in the 80s and 90s against all rhyme and reason.

Interesting! I never heard that before, thanks. I imagine that the reporting played a role in the politics too though. Hearing that crime has gone up, even if it hasn't really, could still illicit a 'do something about it already!' response from the public.
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
November 06 2014 01:40 GMT
#28120
On November 06 2014 10:23 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2014 10:15 Yoav wrote:
On November 06 2014 06:28 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm a little baffled by the fact how low Obama's popularity is. The economy looks like its in pretty good shape and the healthcare reform was at least an improvement I guess, why is he so unpopular?


You get judged as a politician (hell, as a person) by your ability to live up to your promises. Obama promised:

1) Healthcare reform without a mandate (remember, this was the one policy difference between him and Hillary)
2) Closing Gitmo
3) Closing down the survellance state
4) Generally running the war on terror decently
5) Pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan with honor (how did we fail both criteria? I thought it was an either/or)
6) Vague promises about gun control, race relations, and a lot of other things.
and most importantly...
7) Ending partisan gridlock. (lol. gjwp)

Healthcare reform is the one thing he managed, and he botched it horribly. Gitmo was an afternoon of work.
Well, I guess you can sorta count pulling out of Iraq, but that really didn't last all too long.

Don't get me wrong, he ain't worse than Bush, but as my Vermont friends point out, when you're debating the merits of the smell of horse shit against cow shit, you're just shuffling shit.

Would also point out that he made numerous promises to immigrant and minority groups on immigration reform and still hasn't delivered (indeed, his policy on the border and undocumented migrants has been the exact opposite of what he's promised in both 2008 and 2012).

His foreign policy has also had some pretty glaring failings, most notably not intervening in Syria early (when we had a chance to avert the civil war), which would've probably averted the whole re-engagement into Iraq and ISIL affair we've got going on right now.


Quite true (and immigration should have been on my list), though I omitted Ukraine, Syria/Iraq, Israel/Palestine/Jordan, Libya, Egypt from the list because Obama didn't make direct promises on them per se. I mean, if you're including stuff he didn't promise to do, we could throw tax reform, education reform, ending the war on drugs, prison reform, and so on and so forth, although a lot of that stuff is increasingly being done in individual states.
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