• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:30
CEST 10:30
KST 17:30
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE11Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b8IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly4Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"8ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!42
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard" Terran or Protoss
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly INu's Battles#18 - Cure, herO, Rogue & ByuN
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool ASL22 General Discussion ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings
Tourneys
2v2v2v2 Tournament [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Star Con San Diego 2026 Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvT advise for noobs
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2026-27 Football Thread placeholder 2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Games, Hormones, and "Dark" …
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 12366 users

US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1390

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 1388 1389 1390 1391 1392 10093 Next
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
November 02 2014 22:38 GMT
#27781
On November 03 2014 06:21 bookwyrm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2014 03:05 Sub40APM wrote:
On November 03 2014 01:59 bookwyrm wrote:


you really should go read The Long Twentieth Century. Your version of "historically" is not actually historical, it's limited to a very specific time period which you can't extrapolate from

edit: while we're talking about books, the one that sub40 recommended to me that I liked the most was _A Free Nation Deep in Debt_ by James MacDonald. Really a great book. Highly recommended to everybody interested in debt, state finance, and monetary issues in general.

How could you read MacDonald and still cite Arrighi positively? Did you not catch how MacDonald's explanation of debt as a democratic-technocratic device fundamentally undermines Arrighi's claims about finance as the final stage of the economy?


No, I didn't. Please explain. I don't see any contradiction between these two things, in fact they seem quite complimentary. Also, it's important to note that MacDonald is talking about republicanism, NOT democracy. Democracy is a threat to his notion of republicanism as "rule by the creditor classes"

The Dutch Republic was able to achieve its successes versus is royalist, lower debt-per-capita royal opponents because of its financial innovation. It wasnt the final stage of anything, it was the very device that allowed a Republic 1/10th the size of its enemies to more than hold its own. Arrighi fundamentally does not understand Dutch history -- or even the histories of the Italian Republics he cites. Venetian success as a merchant was grounded in both its location but also in its power -- the time period he carves out for Italian dominance also coincides with the greatest extent of Venetian military successes.

Nor will any honest historian of Europe submit that the arbitrary time period of 1610-1710 is a period of Dutch "hegemonic cycle." Dutch conquest of Indonesia -- a cause Arrighi cites as the reason for the Dutch initial success -- occurs after this date. Amsterdam became a financial center of Europe because (a) the Spanish Netherlands/Belgium were ruined by warfare (b) Dutch innovation in public finance. East Asian trade, by comparison, was a smaller section of the fiscal power of the Dutch state. He then traces the decline of the Dutch to overdebtedness without realizing this wasnt caused by arbitrary end of accumulation phase driven by lower real returns but by the reality that the Dutch were perpetually at war on both sea and land and despite being the smallest -- by a large margin of power -- state engaged in near total warfare managed to hang on for another 80 years before finally Napoleon literally overwhelmed the Republic.

The experience of England in the 17th and 18th centuries -- prior to the rise of England as THE dominant power, although not in Arrighi's imagination -- also strongly differs from his theory that debt accumulation is the last phase of a state. After absorbing Dutch financial technology, the debt to gdp of england jumps significant -- as England marshals its citizens savings to the state -- going from almost no debt prior to the "Glorious Revolution" to something like 250% of the GDP at the end of the Napoleonic wars - before declining for the remainder of the 19th century and skyrocketing again following the two World Wars.


inflationary economics encourages the polarization of society into the ultra-wealthy and debt serfs

Inflation decreases the cost of debt. Deflation increases the cost of debt.


an argument which is of course straight out of arrighi. falling rate of profits due to diminishing returns for productive investment drives the financialization of the economy, depressing yields and driving capital into increasingly speculative attempts to find return. you're literally describing exactly what he says will happen at the end of a cycle of accumulation

Except that (a) there has not been any decline in profits of most businesses (b) push towards deflation is caused by a massive recession brought about by the export of savings of Germans/Chinese/Japanese/Koreans onto the rest of the world.


JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 02 2014 22:49 GMT
#27782
On November 03 2014 07:15 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2014 07:07 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 03 2014 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.


Well that's just patently false.... Maybe what you meant was it isn't harming the environment as much per unit of standard of living increase as it did in the 70's.

But that's wildly different than the idea that standard of living increases don't harm the environment. For instance you can say that cars cause less damage than they did in the 70's (per unit) but not that they don't cause any environmental damage at all, or that nearly a billion new cars in China and India won't harm the environment, that's just silly.

The increased environmental toll comes from population growth, not per capita economic growth (see source). It's different for developing countries, but the statement was for the US.

Edit: it's also arguable that there is no net increase in environmental damage from population growth in the US either. In aggregate we're polluting less, and pollution doesn't remain in the environment forever, so the level of pollution that exists in the environment has been falling. I don't have every pollution metric at my fingertips, but pollution in the air has fallen by a very large amount over the last few decades.


Yeah...
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]

Well, it turns out that this is not an easy number to come by. In fact, the “national trash bible” – the publication that the EPA puts out to examine our municipal – is really badly outdated. Research done by Columbia University and a trade journal called BioCycle shows that we produce, per day, 7.1 pounds of trash for every man, woman, and child in the country. And that compares not-favorably with the rest of the world – the average Japanese person produces about 2.5 pounds of trash. But it doesn’t even compare favorably to where we were a few decades ago. It’s about twice as much per capita trash as we produced in 1960.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/06/04/how-americas-trash-became-a-worldwide-problem-an-interview-with-garbology-author-edward-humes/


Everything is okay.

I don't get it. Nothing here contradicts what I wrote.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 02 2014 23:21 GMT
#27783
I think energy consumption per capita is a really poor indicator when it comes to how much damage we do to the environment. We're probably producing and consuming way more energy per capita than the people in 19th century London did, but I'd rather not live there.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24204 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-02 23:23:19
November 02 2014 23:23 GMT
#27784
On November 03 2014 07:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2014 07:15 WhiteDog wrote:
On November 03 2014 07:07 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 03 2014 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.


Well that's just patently false.... Maybe what you meant was it isn't harming the environment as much per unit of standard of living increase as it did in the 70's.

But that's wildly different than the idea that standard of living increases don't harm the environment. For instance you can say that cars cause less damage than they did in the 70's (per unit) but not that they don't cause any environmental damage at all, or that nearly a billion new cars in China and India won't harm the environment, that's just silly.

The increased environmental toll comes from population growth, not per capita economic growth (see source). It's different for developing countries, but the statement was for the US.

Edit: it's also arguable that there is no net increase in environmental damage from population growth in the US either. In aggregate we're polluting less, and pollution doesn't remain in the environment forever, so the level of pollution that exists in the environment has been falling. I don't have every pollution metric at my fingertips, but pollution in the air has fallen by a very large amount over the last few decades.


Yeah...
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]

Well, it turns out that this is not an easy number to come by. In fact, the “national trash bible” – the publication that the EPA puts out to examine our municipal – is really badly outdated. Research done by Columbia University and a trade journal called BioCycle shows that we produce, per day, 7.1 pounds of trash for every man, woman, and child in the country. And that compares not-favorably with the rest of the world – the average Japanese person produces about 2.5 pounds of trash. But it doesn’t even compare favorably to where we were a few decades ago. It’s about twice as much per capita trash as we produced in 1960.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/06/04/how-americas-trash-became-a-worldwide-problem-an-interview-with-garbology-author-edward-humes/


Everything is okay.

I don't get it. Nothing here contradicts what I wrote.


The increased environmental toll comes from population growth


How has population growth resulted in people making more garbage on a per person basis?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-02 23:31:24
November 02 2014 23:25 GMT
#27785
On November 03 2014 07:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2014 07:15 WhiteDog wrote:
On November 03 2014 07:07 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 03 2014 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.


Well that's just patently false.... Maybe what you meant was it isn't harming the environment as much per unit of standard of living increase as it did in the 70's.

But that's wildly different than the idea that standard of living increases don't harm the environment. For instance you can say that cars cause less damage than they did in the 70's (per unit) but not that they don't cause any environmental damage at all, or that nearly a billion new cars in China and India won't harm the environment, that's just silly.

The increased environmental toll comes from population growth, not per capita economic growth (see source). It's different for developing countries, but the statement was for the US.

Edit: it's also arguable that there is no net increase in environmental damage from population growth in the US either. In aggregate we're polluting less, and pollution doesn't remain in the environment forever, so the level of pollution that exists in the environment has been falling. I don't have every pollution metric at my fingertips, but pollution in the air has fallen by a very large amount over the last few decades.


Yeah...
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]

Well, it turns out that this is not an easy number to come by. In fact, the “national trash bible” – the publication that the EPA puts out to examine our municipal – is really badly outdated. Research done by Columbia University and a trade journal called BioCycle shows that we produce, per day, 7.1 pounds of trash for every man, woman, and child in the country. And that compares not-favorably with the rest of the world – the average Japanese person produces about 2.5 pounds of trash. But it doesn’t even compare favorably to where we were a few decades ago. It’s about twice as much per capita trash as we produced in 1960.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/06/04/how-americas-trash-became-a-worldwide-problem-an-interview-with-garbology-author-edward-humes/


Everything is okay.

I don't get it. Nothing here contradicts what I wrote.

You make it seem like there's no problem. That the US energy per capita consumption has not risen for the last ten years, and has even slowly declined, doesn't change the fact that it's almost twice most other OCDE countries. Also, when you want to see the impact of consumption on environment, energy is not enough : you need to take trash into account (and they didn't decrease) and many other things (such as the biocapacity, which has been declining). While the energy usage is more efficient, saying that producing more will not lead to an increase in environmental damage is a gross simplification and it does not change the fact that the situation was not sustainable to begin with.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24204 Posts
November 02 2014 23:37 GMT
#27786
On November 03 2014 08:25 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2014 07:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 03 2014 07:15 WhiteDog wrote:
On November 03 2014 07:07 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 03 2014 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.


Well that's just patently false.... Maybe what you meant was it isn't harming the environment as much per unit of standard of living increase as it did in the 70's.

But that's wildly different than the idea that standard of living increases don't harm the environment. For instance you can say that cars cause less damage than they did in the 70's (per unit) but not that they don't cause any environmental damage at all, or that nearly a billion new cars in China and India won't harm the environment, that's just silly.

The increased environmental toll comes from population growth, not per capita economic growth (see source). It's different for developing countries, but the statement was for the US.

Edit: it's also arguable that there is no net increase in environmental damage from population growth in the US either. In aggregate we're polluting less, and pollution doesn't remain in the environment forever, so the level of pollution that exists in the environment has been falling. I don't have every pollution metric at my fingertips, but pollution in the air has fallen by a very large amount over the last few decades.


Yeah...
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]

Well, it turns out that this is not an easy number to come by. In fact, the “national trash bible” – the publication that the EPA puts out to examine our municipal – is really badly outdated. Research done by Columbia University and a trade journal called BioCycle shows that we produce, per day, 7.1 pounds of trash for every man, woman, and child in the country. And that compares not-favorably with the rest of the world – the average Japanese person produces about 2.5 pounds of trash. But it doesn’t even compare favorably to where we were a few decades ago. It’s about twice as much per capita trash as we produced in 1960.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/06/04/how-americas-trash-became-a-worldwide-problem-an-interview-with-garbology-author-edward-humes/


Everything is okay.

I don't get it. Nothing here contradicts what I wrote.

You make it seem like there's no problem. That the US energy per capita consumption has not risen for the last ten years, and has even slowly declined, doesn't change the fact that it's almost twice most other OCDE countries. Also, when you want to see the impact of consumption on environment, energy is not enough : you need to take trash into account (and they didn't decrease) and many other things (such as the biocapacity, which has been declining). While the energy usage is more efficient, saying that producing more will not lead to an increase in environmental damage is a gross simplification and it does not change the fact that the situation was not sustainable to begin with.



I guess it should also be mentioned how exporting the dirtier economic producers to 'developing countries' helps explain why the US's story isn't the same as the countries we send our dirtier practices to when it comes to how pollution tracks with economic development.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-02 23:54:57
November 02 2014 23:52 GMT
#27787
On November 03 2014 05:47 Nyxisto wrote:
You shouldn't expect otherwise, but it's still a big problem that people who rely on their cash in the bank the most are going to be screwed over the most by inflation. The inflation a lot of people are asking for is going eat up a lot of pension funds while some random rich guy will just buy a house or whatever.

people with low savings are not screwed by inflation. you are instead talking about people who also have sticky wage while inflation happens. need to be more specific.

inflation can be driven by wage increase while at full capacity or a financial glut of money parked into land and commodities. they have differing impact on wage slave class


add '' where appropriate phone typing a bitch
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-03 00:10:37
November 02 2014 23:58 GMT
#27788
On November 03 2014 08:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2014 07:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 03 2014 07:15 WhiteDog wrote:
On November 03 2014 07:07 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 03 2014 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.


Well that's just patently false.... Maybe what you meant was it isn't harming the environment as much per unit of standard of living increase as it did in the 70's.

But that's wildly different than the idea that standard of living increases don't harm the environment. For instance you can say that cars cause less damage than they did in the 70's (per unit) but not that they don't cause any environmental damage at all, or that nearly a billion new cars in China and India won't harm the environment, that's just silly.

The increased environmental toll comes from population growth, not per capita economic growth (see source). It's different for developing countries, but the statement was for the US.

Edit: it's also arguable that there is no net increase in environmental damage from population growth in the US either. In aggregate we're polluting less, and pollution doesn't remain in the environment forever, so the level of pollution that exists in the environment has been falling. I don't have every pollution metric at my fingertips, but pollution in the air has fallen by a very large amount over the last few decades.


Yeah...
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]

Well, it turns out that this is not an easy number to come by. In fact, the “national trash bible” – the publication that the EPA puts out to examine our municipal – is really badly outdated. Research done by Columbia University and a trade journal called BioCycle shows that we produce, per day, 7.1 pounds of trash for every man, woman, and child in the country. And that compares not-favorably with the rest of the world – the average Japanese person produces about 2.5 pounds of trash. But it doesn’t even compare favorably to where we were a few decades ago. It’s about twice as much per capita trash as we produced in 1960.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/06/04/how-americas-trash-became-a-worldwide-problem-an-interview-with-garbology-author-edward-humes/


Everything is okay.

I don't get it. Nothing here contradicts what I wrote.


Show nested quote +
The increased environmental toll comes from population growth


How has population growth resulted in people making more garbage on a per person basis?

Thanks, I missed the trash part.

However, while we produce more trash we also recycle more. In aggregate we produce the same amount of landfill waste as we did back in the 80's. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading] Source


Edit:
On November 03 2014 08:25 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2014 07:49 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 03 2014 07:15 WhiteDog wrote:
On November 03 2014 07:07 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 03 2014 06:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.


Well that's just patently false.... Maybe what you meant was it isn't harming the environment as much per unit of standard of living increase as it did in the 70's.

But that's wildly different than the idea that standard of living increases don't harm the environment. For instance you can say that cars cause less damage than they did in the 70's (per unit) but not that they don't cause any environmental damage at all, or that nearly a billion new cars in China and India won't harm the environment, that's just silly.

The increased environmental toll comes from population growth, not per capita economic growth (see source). It's different for developing countries, but the statement was for the US.

Edit: it's also arguable that there is no net increase in environmental damage from population growth in the US either. In aggregate we're polluting less, and pollution doesn't remain in the environment forever, so the level of pollution that exists in the environment has been falling. I don't have every pollution metric at my fingertips, but pollution in the air has fallen by a very large amount over the last few decades.


Yeah...
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]

Well, it turns out that this is not an easy number to come by. In fact, the “national trash bible” – the publication that the EPA puts out to examine our municipal – is really badly outdated. Research done by Columbia University and a trade journal called BioCycle shows that we produce, per day, 7.1 pounds of trash for every man, woman, and child in the country. And that compares not-favorably with the rest of the world – the average Japanese person produces about 2.5 pounds of trash. But it doesn’t even compare favorably to where we were a few decades ago. It’s about twice as much per capita trash as we produced in 1960.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/06/04/how-americas-trash-became-a-worldwide-problem-an-interview-with-garbology-author-edward-humes/


Everything is okay.

I don't get it. Nothing here contradicts what I wrote.

You make it seem like there's no problem. That the US energy per capita consumption has not risen for the last ten years, and has even slowly declined, doesn't change the fact that it's almost twice most other OCDE countries. Also, when you want to see the impact of consumption on environment, energy is not enough : you need to take trash into account (and they didn't decrease) and many other things (such as the biocapacity, which has been declining). While the energy usage is more efficient, saying that producing more will not lead to an increase in environmental damage is a gross simplification and it does not change the fact that the situation was not sustainable to begin with.

It hasn't increased since the 70's. Also, water usage per capita is also down, as are emissions.

Edit: also, pointing out that other countries produce less waste and are more efficient with energy use supports my original point.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24204 Posts
November 03 2014 00:38 GMT
#27789
However, while we produce more trash we also recycle more. In aggregate we produce the same amount of landfill waste as we did back in the 80's. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading] Source



Yes recycling has gone up, but it as with the massive increase of burning the increased garbage, has it's own costs.

Even if recycling had 0 environmental consequences (it doesn't, it only mitigates part of the damage done by production/waste) The increase in the garbage produced (~constant level in landfills) combined with the increase in the amount of garbage burned is more than enough to render your original claim false.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 03 2014 00:43 GMT
#27790
On November 03 2014 08:52 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2014 05:47 Nyxisto wrote:
You shouldn't expect otherwise, but it's still a big problem that people who rely on their cash in the bank the most are going to be screwed over the most by inflation. The inflation a lot of people are asking for is going eat up a lot of pension funds while some random rich guy will just buy a house or whatever.

people with low savings are not screwed by inflation. you are instead talking about people who also have sticky wage while inflation happens. need to be more specific.

inflation can be driven by wage increase while at full capacity or a financial glut of money parked into land and commodities. they have differing impact on wage slave class


add '' where appropriate phone typing a bitch

A pensioner who has some 20-50k of cash in the bank is most definitely going to suffer from inflation. And this actually happens to be a fairly large group of people. Why wouldn't he? The cash in his account is not going to be adjusted for purchasing power. The only group of people that are going to suffer from inflation are the people with limited savings. Too little to put it into stock or the housing market, and too much to just live off their paychecks. In other words the famous middle class that is already the most milked and vanishing.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 03 2014 00:50 GMT
#27791
On November 03 2014 09:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
However, while we produce more trash we also recycle more. In aggregate we produce the same amount of landfill waste as we did back in the 80's. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading] Source



Yes recycling has gone up, but it as with the massive increase of burning the increased garbage, has it's own costs.

Even if recycling had 0 environmental consequences (it doesn't, it only mitigates part of the damage done by production/waste) The increase in the garbage produced (~constant level in landfills) combined with the increase in the amount of garbage burned is more than enough to render your original claim false.

No, not really. I'd imagine that burning waste would mainly affect air quality, but air quality has improved dramatically.

My original point was about per capita growth and how pollution generation isn't tied to it as it once was. I'm not sure how you are figuring that to be proven false.
Vegetarian
Profile Joined October 2008
119 Posts
November 03 2014 01:01 GMT
#27792
On November 03 2014 08:52 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2014 05:47 Nyxisto wrote:
You shouldn't expect otherwise, but it's still a big problem that people who rely on their cash in the bank the most are going to be screwed over the most by inflation. The inflation a lot of people are asking for is going eat up a lot of pension funds while some random rich guy will just buy a house or whatever.

people with low savings are not screwed by inflation. you are instead talking about people who also have sticky wage while inflation happens. need to be more specific.

inflation can be driven by wage increase while at full capacity or a financial glut of money parked into land and commodities. they have differing impact on wage slave class


add '' where appropriate phone typing a bitch


People with low savings are screwed by inflation. Inflation renders there savings worth less than it was before the inflation. Is this really that difficult to understand?

People that gain from inflation are debtors, and politically connected people who have access to the newly printed money before prices adjust to reflect the inflated money supply.

People with the least amount of money and the lowest paying jobs are hurt the most from inflation because wages always lag behind increases in the money supply. This causes prices to increase faster than wages, resulting in lower purchasing power for poor people.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-03 01:19:24
November 03 2014 01:17 GMT
#27793
people with low savings have larger portion of their wealth in the income/wage stream. this is supposed to rise with inflation.

the original claim was people with low savings are disproportionately hurt by inflation. response was depends on whether it is wage led inflation or something else.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24204 Posts
November 03 2014 01:17 GMT
#27794
My original point was about per capita growth and how pollution generation isn't tied to it as it once was. I'm not sure how you are figuring that to be proven false.

Except that's not what you said. You said:
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.


I'd imagine that burning waste would mainly affect air quality, but air quality has improved dramatically.


Lucky for us we aren't limited by your imagination. The environmental damage caused by recycling (less than starting from scratch but not without damage) and non air-related damage from burning waste renders your original claim false.

Your new revised claim that
"per capita growth and how pollution generation isn't tied to it as it once was."


is a different claim. and one I am not as conflicted with. Obviously we disagree, but we can agree that

Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.The increased environmental toll comes from population growth


Is just not a complete/accurate claim.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 03 2014 01:23 GMT
#27795
On November 03 2014 10:17 oneofthem wrote:
people with low savings have larger portion of their wealth in the income/wage stream. this is supposed to rise with inflation.

the original claim was people with low savings are disproportionately hurt by inflation. response was depends on whether it is wage led inflation or something else.


Practically speaking this doesn't actually matter. Sure relatively speaking the poorer the person the more important their income is over their savings, but for someone who's part of the (lower) middle-class and has spent their whole life accumulating a small amount of money to support their pension this is actually pretty crucial for their living standard. And exactly these people are getting their savings eaten up pretty quickly by inflation, even if it is as low as 2%.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 03 2014 01:24 GMT
#27796
On November 03 2014 10:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
My original point was about per capita growth and how pollution generation isn't tied to it as it once was. I'm not sure how you are figuring that to be proven false.

Except that's not what you said. You said:
Show nested quote +
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.


Show nested quote +
I'd imagine that burning waste would mainly affect air quality, but air quality has improved dramatically.


Lucky for us we aren't limited by your imagination. The environmental damage caused by recycling (less than starting from scratch but not without damage) and non air-related damage from burning waste renders your original claim false.

Your new revised claim that
Show nested quote +
"per capita growth and how pollution generation isn't tied to it as it once was."


is a different claim. and one I am not as conflicted with. Obviously we disagree, but we can agree that

Show nested quote +
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.The increased environmental toll comes from population growth


Is just not a complete/accurate claim.

Sorry, but you are just wrong. This:
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.The increased environmental toll comes from population growth

is equivalent to this:
per capita growth and how pollution generation isn't tied to it as it once was.


They aren't different arguments. Both are making a claim that increasing income per person does not, by itself, increase harm done to the environment. Nothing that's been posted has disputed that.

The environmental damage caused by recycling (less than starting from scratch but not without damage) and non air-related damage from burning waste renders your original claim false.

How so?

oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-03 01:27:18
November 03 2014 01:25 GMT
#27797
so what? pensions are inflation adjusted and that person should have invested in some form of secure asset that also grows.

by the by the government should also hand out inflation stipends to those elderly in your example. but in the larger context of the economy deflation is way way worse than moderate inflation, partly due to increasing inequality.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 03 2014 01:59 GMT
#27798
Brittany Maynard, the Oregon woman who had become an outspoken advocate for patient's rights following her terminal cancer diagnosis, died on Saturday, the Oregonian reported. She was 29.

"Goodbye to all my dear friends and family that I love," she wrote in a Facebook post, according to People. "Today is the day I have chosen to pass away with dignity in the face of my terminal illness... the world is a beautiful place, travel has been my greatest teacher, my close friends and folks are the greatest givers... goodbye world. Spread good energy. Pay it forward!"

Earlier this year, Maynard learned that she was suffering from an aggressive form of brain cancer called glioblastoma and had only six months to live. After hearing what the disease would to her body in its final stages, she decided that she wanted to die on her own terms.

Maynard and her family, including her husband Dan Diaz and her mother Debbie Ziegler, moved to Oregon, whose Death With Dignity Act has allowed hundreds of terminally ill people to end their lives by taking a medication prescribed by doctors. She picked November 1st as the day she wanted to die because it was after her husband's late October birthday.

Since then, Maynard had become a champion for the law and for patients in her situation, working with the group Compassion and Choices.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24204 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-03 02:15:50
November 03 2014 02:12 GMT
#27799
If you think:

Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.The increased environmental toll comes from population growth


and:

per capita growth and how pollution generation isn't tied to it as it once was.


don't mean different things, then we are done.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 03 2014 02:25 GMT
#27800
On November 03 2014 11:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
If you think:

Show nested quote +
Growing standards of living isn't harming the environment though.The increased environmental toll comes from population growth


and:

Show nested quote +
per capita growth and how pollution generation isn't tied to it as it once was.


don't mean different things, then we are done.

They don't.

Sorry, but... what about them do you think is different? Per capita economic growth and pollution were tied in that increasing one meant increasing the other. That is not true anymore, so if you grow standards of living you do not add to pollution. So growth isn't harming the environment. What don't you understand (other than English)?
Prev 1 1388 1389 1390 1391 1392 10093 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 30m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1699
Killer 715
Mini 229
Leta 153
Mind 67
Sharp 47
Bale 40
yabsab 28
ZergMaN 24
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
[ Show more ]
Noble 13
NotJumperer 10
Dota 2
ODPixel94
League of Legends
JimRising 525
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss529
Other Games
summit1g5792
singsing1037
ceh9696
Sick183
RuFF_SC267
Fuzer 64
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick897
BasetradeTV60
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 10
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV210
• lizZardDota2140
League of Legends
• Jankos743
• Stunt348
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
30m
KCM Race Survival
1h 30m
CrankTV Team League
2h 30m
OSC
4h 30m
OSC
9h
Replay Cast
15h 30m
Escore
1d 1h
CrankTV Team League
1d 2h
OSC
1d 14h
Replay Cast
1d 15h
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
1d 19h
RSL Revival
2 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Solar vs Lambo
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Clem vs Serral
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3 days
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-07-29
SCTL 2026 Spring
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W5
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #2
Acropolis #5
Escore Tournament S3: W6
Escore Tournament S3: W7
Escore Tournament S3: W8
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.