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On March 17 2018 02:35 Wulfey_LA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 02:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 02:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:
This is insane. Police-less states were tried in the past and having tax payer funded state police forces is by far the best of many options. Let us consider the alternatives. In the wild west, you had the Pinkertons and local law men empowered by the richest locals. In the medieval days, you had knights who kept the peace for the benefit of their lords. In places where police are under paid (all of South America), you have local crime lords supplementing police income to skirt nominal laws. Where the police are insufficient for local patrols, you get private security forces. In Japan, you had a leeching samurai class that kept the peace at the expense of the populace. In post Civil War America, you got the rise of the KKK to provide private domination and terrorism against undesirable local populations. In failing states (Somalia, western Iraq, eastern Syria, Afghanistan), you get warlords who take the place of police forces. Eliminating taxpayer funded police forces only results in other forms of security arising that are far worse. The USA style of police forces that are linked to a due process backed justice system may have some troubles, but damn are they the best of all possible options. Police officers are accountable to the voters who vote on their budget. This vastly superior to having cops that answer to warlords, kings, shoguns, corporations, drug dealers, and local business tycoons. This is insane. Somehow people think comments like this have any value whatsoever. Did you have any idea by what metrics you assess the efficacy of the US police/justice system or do you think you can assert it's effectiveness without them? Pick one of the alternatives I listed that you would prefer. Also, you are the one proposing blowing up a status quo that has overwhelming voter and historical support. You bear the burden of proving out your alternative.
I choose none of your options. I choose the multi-pronged strategy I outlined before. Which would have a paid/trained intervention group that would do a lot of what you guys think we need untrained criminal conspirators aka cops (what we have now) to do.
The 'abolish the police' phrase refers to destroying the entrenched power and incentive structure fighting against the 'reforms' everyone says they agree on but no one can make happen (or measure their efficacy if they did). Not getting rid of the concept of compensating people who deescalate and resolve disputes.
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On March 17 2018 02:39 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 02:28 iamthedave wrote:On March 17 2018 02:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:
This is insane. Police-less states were tried in the past and having tax payer funded state police forces is by far the best of many options. Let us consider the alternatives. In the wild west, you had the Pinkertons and local law men empowered by the richest locals. In the medieval days, you had knights who kept the peace for the benefit of their lords. In places where police are under paid (all of South America), you have local crime lords supplementing police income to skirt nominal laws. Where the police are insufficient for local patrols, you get private security forces. In Japan, you had a leeching samurai class that kept the peace at the expense of the populace. In post Civil War America, you got the rise of the KKK to provide private domination and terrorism against undesirable local populations. In failing states (Somalia, western Iraq, eastern Syria, Afghanistan), you get warlords who take the place of police forces. Eliminating taxpayer funded police forces only results in other forms of security arising that are far worse. The USA style of police forces that are linked to a due process backed justice system may have some troubles, but damn are they the best of all possible options. Police officers are accountable to the voters who vote on their budget. This vastly superior to having cops that answer to warlords, kings, shoguns, corporations, drug dealers, and local business tycoons. You have police regularly murdering the citizenry and walking it off without even a legal slap on the wrist. That is not a sign of a great police force. Since no "important" people are losing money / being affected directly by this, it's not going to change on its own. Some sort of widespread revolt will need to happen (and I think that'd be a good thing actually).
I agree. "Important" people need to start being affected by this sort of thing. Rigorously.
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How about some data. Violent crime is trending down over the last 10 years in the USA*. Overall numbers of police shootings are down from the higher period of 2012-2014**. If you abolish the police, concentrations of power*** will replace the police with organizations that employ the threat of and the use of force to protect those concentrations of power. Any alternative system needs to grapple with this hard reality. Further, any alternative system needs to be shown that it will show even better results than the good trends we had going prior to the Trump administration.
+ Show Spoiler +
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Crime_over_time
+ Show Spoiler +
EDIT: just go to the site, it is worth reading, I can't link their images right now
** https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/xwvv3a/shot-by-cops
*** from my list above, Pinkertons, lawmen, samurai, knights, gendarmes, warlords, narcoCops, jihadists, kkk, mafia, criminal gansg, all of these guys move in where public security forces do not exist and serve the concentrations of power of them, or turn themselves into the new concentration of power.
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So for the lawyers in this thread, how often does this happen during a divorce?
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Is this part of the theory that its all a plan to move assets out of Trump name and into hers?
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If the couple getting divorced is under criminal investigation, not that uncommon. Most attorneys that primarily practice family law are not going feel comfortable advocating for their client in the divorce and criminal proceedings. They are two very separate sections of law.
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On March 17 2018 02:45 Wulfey_LA wrote:How about some data. Violent crime is trending down over the last 10 years in the USA*. Overall numbers of police shootings are down from the higher period of 2012-2014**. If you abolish the police, concentrations of power*** will replace the police with organizations that employ the threat of and the use of force to protect those concentrations of power. Any alternative system needs to grapple with this hard reality. Further, any alternative system needs to be shown that it will show even better results than the good trends we had going prior to the Trump administration. + Show Spoiler +* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Crime_over_time+ Show Spoiler +
EDIT: just go to the site, it is worth reading, I can't link their images right now
** https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/xwvv3a/shot-by-cops*** from my list above, Pinkertons, lawmen, samurai, knights, gendarmes, warlords, narcoCops, jihadists, kkk, mafia, criminal gansg, all of these guys move in where public security forces do not exist and serve the concentrations of power of them, or turn themselves into the new concentration of power.
It's hard for me to treat this seriously at all.
Did you really just say the metric is Bureau of Justice statistics and then follow it immediately with an article pointing out why they aren't remotely accurate?
Like did that just happen? All the while playing the part of the one making the intelligent argument?
You have to be trolling.
Under the heading of:
KEY FINDINGS
VICE News sought records on officer-involved shootings from the country’s 50 largest local police departments; 47 responded with data sufficient for analysis. Many fought hard to keep the information secret, and some responded to our requests only under threat of legal action. One department sent a CD-ROM containing a single spreadsheet file through the mail. Another wanted to charge us thousands of dollars unless the records were inspected in person.
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I always like GH's approach to government:
Democratic party sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and build a new grass roots party, which I am sure will be better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW FILTHY CORRUPT THE DNC IS?!
Police sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and have this anarcho-capitalist substitute, which I am sure will work better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN THE POLICE IS?!
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On March 17 2018 02:53 Acrofales wrote:
I always like GH's approach to government:
Democratic party sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and build a new grass roots party, which I am sure will be better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW FILTHY CORRUPT THE DNC IS?!
Police sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and have this anarcho-capitalist substitute, which I am sure will work better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN THE POLICE IS?!
lol I love when people fail so utterly at making a substantive argument (or can't be bothered to try to fake it) that they resort to clownish misrepresentations like this.
It's indicative of just how horribly their argument (or lack there of) was constructed in the first place.
The caps really help drive it home lol
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i imagine this is like being told you're going to get to meet your childhood hero, and then you get to meet the guy who plans his travel instead. except travel guy in this case thinks he's hot shit.
hopefully ivanka reads the wiki page on korean penninsula relations beforehand.
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On March 17 2018 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 02:53 Acrofales wrote:
I always like GH's approach to government:
Democratic party sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and build a new grass roots party, which I am sure will be better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW FILTHY CORRUPT THE DNC IS?!
Police sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and have this anarcho-capitalist substitute, which I am sure will work better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN THE POLICE IS?! lol I love when people fail so utterly at making a substantive argument (or can't be bothered to try to fake it) that they resort to clownish misrepresentations like this. It's indicative of just how horribly their argument (or lack there of) was constructed in the first place.
Actually, it's not my argument. I haven't entered into it. I'm just flummoxed reading a 6-point summary on Rolling Stones (well known for their nuanced understanding of complex social issues) and then pages of worthless discussion in which you just repeat that people haven't read the article are bringing up (valid) criticism of it and repeating over and over that the current police force is broken.
And this is you arguing with a bunch of people who I would consider quite left-wing and happy to agree with you that the police force as is, is a hopelessly corrupt, racist bunch of trash.
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On March 17 2018 03:01 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 02:53 Acrofales wrote:
I always like GH's approach to government:
Democratic party sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and build a new grass roots party, which I am sure will be better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW FILTHY CORRUPT THE DNC IS?!
Police sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and have this anarcho-capitalist substitute, which I am sure will work better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN THE POLICE IS?! lol I love when people fail so utterly at making a substantive argument (or can't be bothered to try to fake it) that they resort to clownish misrepresentations like this. It's indicative of just how horribly their argument (or lack there of) was constructed in the first place. Actually, it's not my argument. I haven't entered into it. I'm just flummoxed reading a 6-point summary on Rolling Stones (well known for their nuanced understanding of complex social issues) and then pages of worthless discussion in which you just repeat that people haven't read the article are bringing up (valid) criticism of it and repeating over and over that the current police force is broken. And this is you arguing with a bunch of people who I would consider quite left-wing and happy to agree with you that the police force as is, is a hopelessly corrupt, racist bunch of trash.
Ah I see, so you don't actually have an argument, just wanted to comment that you didn't understand the one being had. No problem then.
To recap:
It's totally reasonable and expected to provide a comprehensive plan to fix the entire police system in post form
It's totally unreasonable to expect the people saying their system is working and just needs reform to have any idea how they measure the efficacy of their preferred system or any reforms they won't get.
this shit is a joke.
EDIT: While I'm at it I'll also comment on having to suffer through this argument. PFFT!
As opposed to the National Enquirer: Political Nerds Edition conversation that's always humming in the background, I'd rather bludgeon myself to death with a soup spoon than read that, but you guys seem to love it. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
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When you're at that level, it's fairly common. If you're looking at the legal needs of celebrities and athletes, criminal defense and family law are the two big ones. For this reason, it is fairly common for the elite firms that have these clients to take care of both needs.
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On March 17 2018 03:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On March 17 2018 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 02:53 Acrofales wrote:
I always like GH's approach to government:
Democratic party sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and build a new grass roots party, which I am sure will be better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW FILTHY CORRUPT THE DNC IS?!
Police sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and have this anarcho-capitalist substitute, which I am sure will work better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN THE POLICE IS?! lol I love when people fail so utterly at making a substantive argument (or can't be bothered to try to fake it) that they resort to clownish misrepresentations like this. It's indicative of just how horribly their argument (or lack there of) was constructed in the first place. Actually, it's not my argument. I haven't entered into it. I'm just flummoxed reading a 6-point summary on Rolling Stones (well known for their nuanced understanding of complex social issues) and then pages of worthless discussion in which you just repeat that people haven't read the article are bringing up (valid) criticism of it and repeating over and over that the current police force is broken. And this is you arguing with a bunch of people who I would consider quite left-wing and happy to agree with you that the police force as is, is a hopelessly corrupt, racist bunch of trash. Ah I see, so you don't actually have an argument, just wanted to comment that you didn't understand the one being had. No problem then. To recap: It's totally reasonable and expected to provide a comprehensive plan to fix the entire police system in post form It's totally unreasonable to expect the people saying their system is working and just needs reform to have any idea how they measure the efficacy of their preferred system or any reforms they won't get. this shit is a joke.
As I just said, you're not arguing with danglars or xdaunt. You're arguing with hunts and wulffey. I really doubt they claim that the system is working. What they're saying is "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater".
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On March 17 2018 03:23 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 03:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On March 17 2018 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 02:53 Acrofales wrote:
I always like GH's approach to government:
Democratic party sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and build a new grass roots party, which I am sure will be better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW FILTHY CORRUPT THE DNC IS?!
Police sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and have this anarcho-capitalist substitute, which I am sure will work better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN THE POLICE IS?! lol I love when people fail so utterly at making a substantive argument (or can't be bothered to try to fake it) that they resort to clownish misrepresentations like this. It's indicative of just how horribly their argument (or lack there of) was constructed in the first place. Actually, it's not my argument. I haven't entered into it. I'm just flummoxed reading a 6-point summary on Rolling Stones (well known for their nuanced understanding of complex social issues) and then pages of worthless discussion in which you just repeat that people haven't read the article are bringing up (valid) criticism of it and repeating over and over that the current police force is broken. And this is you arguing with a bunch of people who I would consider quite left-wing and happy to agree with you that the police force as is, is a hopelessly corrupt, racist bunch of trash. Ah I see, so you don't actually have an argument, just wanted to comment that you didn't understand the one being had. No problem then. To recap: It's totally reasonable and expected to provide a comprehensive plan to fix the entire police system in post form It's totally unreasonable to expect the people saying their system is working and just needs reform to have any idea how they measure the efficacy of their preferred system or any reforms they won't get. this shit is a joke. As I just said, you're not arguing with danglars or xdaunt. You're arguing with hunts and wulffey. I really doubt they claim that the system is working. What they're saying is "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater".
You think hunts and Wulfey are "quite left"?
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On March 17 2018 03:25 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 03:23 Acrofales wrote:On March 17 2018 03:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On March 17 2018 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 02:53 Acrofales wrote:
I always like GH's approach to government:
Democratic party sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and build a new grass roots party, which I am sure will be better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW FILTHY CORRUPT THE DNC IS?!
Police sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and have this anarcho-capitalist substitute, which I am sure will work better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN THE POLICE IS?! lol I love when people fail so utterly at making a substantive argument (or can't be bothered to try to fake it) that they resort to clownish misrepresentations like this. It's indicative of just how horribly their argument (or lack there of) was constructed in the first place. Actually, it's not my argument. I haven't entered into it. I'm just flummoxed reading a 6-point summary on Rolling Stones (well known for their nuanced understanding of complex social issues) and then pages of worthless discussion in which you just repeat that people haven't read the article are bringing up (valid) criticism of it and repeating over and over that the current police force is broken. And this is you arguing with a bunch of people who I would consider quite left-wing and happy to agree with you that the police force as is, is a hopelessly corrupt, racist bunch of trash. Ah I see, so you don't actually have an argument, just wanted to comment that you didn't understand the one being had. No problem then. To recap: It's totally reasonable and expected to provide a comprehensive plan to fix the entire police system in post form It's totally unreasonable to expect the people saying their system is working and just needs reform to have any idea how they measure the efficacy of their preferred system or any reforms they won't get. this shit is a joke. As I just said, you're not arguing with danglars or xdaunt. You're arguing with hunts and wulffey. I really doubt they claim that the system is working. What they're saying is "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater". You think hunts and Wulfey are "quite left"?
Beat me to it. I'm sorry that anyone thinks hunts posts add much of anything but noise to any argument I've seen him drive by recently, let alone that they rank as 'quite left'.
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On March 17 2018 03:27 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 03:25 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2018 03:23 Acrofales wrote:On March 17 2018 03:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On March 17 2018 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 02:53 Acrofales wrote:
I always like GH's approach to government:
Democratic party sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and build a new grass roots party, which I am sure will be better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW FILTHY CORRUPT THE DNC IS?!
Police sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and have this anarcho-capitalist substitute, which I am sure will work better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN THE POLICE IS?! lol I love when people fail so utterly at making a substantive argument (or can't be bothered to try to fake it) that they resort to clownish misrepresentations like this. It's indicative of just how horribly their argument (or lack there of) was constructed in the first place. Actually, it's not my argument. I haven't entered into it. I'm just flummoxed reading a 6-point summary on Rolling Stones (well known for their nuanced understanding of complex social issues) and then pages of worthless discussion in which you just repeat that people haven't read the article are bringing up (valid) criticism of it and repeating over and over that the current police force is broken. And this is you arguing with a bunch of people who I would consider quite left-wing and happy to agree with you that the police force as is, is a hopelessly corrupt, racist bunch of trash. Ah I see, so you don't actually have an argument, just wanted to comment that you didn't understand the one being had. No problem then. To recap: It's totally reasonable and expected to provide a comprehensive plan to fix the entire police system in post form It's totally unreasonable to expect the people saying their system is working and just needs reform to have any idea how they measure the efficacy of their preferred system or any reforms they won't get. this shit is a joke. As I just said, you're not arguing with danglars or xdaunt. You're arguing with hunts and wulffey. I really doubt they claim that the system is working. What they're saying is "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater". You think hunts and Wulfey are "quite left"? Beat me to it. I'm sorry that anyone thinks hunts posts add much of anything but noise to any argument I've seen him drive by recently, let alone that they rank as 'quite left'.
Here, I'll draw it for you:
GH -- Nebu ---------------------------------- Most everybody else on this forum with left-wing ideas including Wulfey and Hunts ------------------------------ Center ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danglars
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Yeah. If you post any form of suggestion for change people always zoom in on that little thing they dislike, ignore everything else, and proclaim that "it is impossible". It's easy to shoot things down like that. Come up with your own better suggestions, or link to articles from what you think are more credible sources on the subject if that's your complaint.
Edit: stop drinking and posting Acrofales
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On March 17 2018 03:35 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 03:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 03:25 Nebuchad wrote:On March 17 2018 03:23 Acrofales wrote:On March 17 2018 03:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On March 17 2018 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 17 2018 02:53 Acrofales wrote:
I always like GH's approach to government:
Democratic party sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and build a new grass roots party, which I am sure will be better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW FILTHY CORRUPT THE DNC IS?!
Police sucks. Don't bother try fixing it, it's too broken. Trash it and have this anarcho-capitalist substitute, which I am sure will work better! Why? WHY ARE YOU ASKING WHY? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN THE POLICE IS?! lol I love when people fail so utterly at making a substantive argument (or can't be bothered to try to fake it) that they resort to clownish misrepresentations like this. It's indicative of just how horribly their argument (or lack there of) was constructed in the first place. Actually, it's not my argument. I haven't entered into it. I'm just flummoxed reading a 6-point summary on Rolling Stones (well known for their nuanced understanding of complex social issues) and then pages of worthless discussion in which you just repeat that people haven't read the article are bringing up (valid) criticism of it and repeating over and over that the current police force is broken. And this is you arguing with a bunch of people who I would consider quite left-wing and happy to agree with you that the police force as is, is a hopelessly corrupt, racist bunch of trash. Ah I see, so you don't actually have an argument, just wanted to comment that you didn't understand the one being had. No problem then. To recap: It's totally reasonable and expected to provide a comprehensive plan to fix the entire police system in post form It's totally unreasonable to expect the people saying their system is working and just needs reform to have any idea how they measure the efficacy of their preferred system or any reforms they won't get. this shit is a joke. As I just said, you're not arguing with danglars or xdaunt. You're arguing with hunts and wulffey. I really doubt they claim that the system is working. What they're saying is "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater". You think hunts and Wulfey are "quite left"? Beat me to it. I'm sorry that anyone thinks hunts posts add much of anything but noise to any argument I've seen him drive by recently, let alone that they rank as 'quite left'. Here, I'll draw it for you: GH -- Nebu ---------------------------------- Most everybody else on this forum with left-wing ideas including Wulfey and Hunts ------------------------------ Center ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danglars
I'm genuinely surprised to see you post like this.
But hey, I guess you win this argument. Hunts and wulfey are, indeed, to the left of Danglars.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Violent_crime_rates_by_gender_1973-2003.jpg)
