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2v2 and 3v3 Strategy

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a2thej
Profile Joined June 2012
9 Posts
June 28 2012 17:15 GMT
#1
Id like to talk about 2v2 and 3v3 strats... There doesnt seem to be anywhere near as many competitive tourneys for 2v2 or 3v3 as oppose to 1v1...

I enjoy 2v2 and 3v3 more becuase it feels more fun and less stressful.
Im 1v1 Plat, but the only thing that helps me from that is scouting and micro ability, I to often get steam rolled when i early expo or dont 10 gate/rax/pool to prevent the Chrono'd gates or cannon rushes etc....
This greatly alters build orders as well so 2v2 3v3 BO's will differ from 1v1's


So that being said I feel this is the best thing me and my team can do against other teams... Over scouting get as much info as possible just like 1v1, but instead of me countering what i scout. We discuss which of us is going to counter what.

Next, Taking out early expo's is crucial and generally easy because of having 3 armies against a weaker army considering the expo'd (esp if the expo is a FE)

Also I find taking advantage of the sharing mins and gas option extremely helpful.. I might go chargelots with +1 and 6 gate, while still taking gas and giving it to my teammate who is going mutas, or MMM... etc..

Last, Attacking together and all microing ur own troops make it impossible for 1 opponenent do overcome the attack.. I dont recommend attacking whoever you feel is the weakest player 1st because if he is infact the weakest player then you dont have much to worry about from him... I always attack the strongest player in hopes of him leaving causing a domino effect.


This is my 1st post and i did read over the rules and i searched for similar threads but all were very old and i hope to spark up a new one so we can get some good insight in to other peoples thoughts

I would like to have this thread be soley about multiplayer strats; Alot of high level 1v1 players dont do well at multiplayer because everything seems to be thrown out the window in multiplayer

thanks

-AJ
Viperbird
Profile Joined September 2010
United States118 Posts
June 28 2012 17:28 GMT
#2
In 3v3 when we wanted to win, we went 10pool as zerg and get speed asap after first ling pressure, the terran went gas first into super fast hellions, and protoss went stalkers. If that didn't kill them (depending on the map and how the ramps are set up) we would simply expand and throw all the money at the protoss and the terran would make some tanks. Pretty much always wins ezpz up to masters 3v3 then things get a little tricky.

Also we did a super all-in push which was proxy barracks, like 3 of em, 3 gates no gas, and 13 pool super fast roaches, this pretty much never lost except to a team who went super fast tanks and delayed us long enough.

If you wanna have fun though, triple 3 rax allin is crazy, nothing like when dozens of rines and rauders show up real early!
If at first you don't succeed, don't try skydiving!
CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2120 Posts
June 28 2012 17:39 GMT
#3
Not too long ago, I used to warm up for 1v1, by playing 1-3 random 2v2s--which could be really frustrating, if your ally is bad, and you lose because they go 1 base hydra (in diamond 2v2, T_T). My solution for this was to just go DT expand every single game, which, to my surprise worked fairly well. I had something like a 66% winrate, and my victories were usually twenty minute games. Though when I went DT it was usually slow DTs, I actually got 1-3 stalkers CB'ed stalkers out of my gateway before adding the dark shrine, and after I added the dark shrine, I got 4 gates, I usually got charge, and built only 1-2 DTs, after which I would drop my expansion.
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
PeanutsNJam
Profile Joined April 2011
United States175 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 18:36:59
June 28 2012 18:30 GMT
#4
On June 29 2012 02:15 a2thej wrote:Alot of high level 1v1 players dont do well at multiplayer because everything seems to be thrown out the window in multiplayerJ


I believe this is blatantly false. I'm not high level by any means, but two friends of mine (we're diamond and higher) decided to make a 3 man team and play some ladder matches. Won 12 in a row, got to high masters in a night. Let me repeat: I'm not high level by any means.

Pro 3v3/4v4 strat: rush and cheese. Better micro wins. I'm not even joking. Or, if you're playing against baddies, 15 nexus/hatch/cc and hold their 1 base push. Then win. Or just do safe 1v1 strats and do them well while communicating with your team. Then win. Zerg does 14 pool 15 hatch, terran does 2 rax fe, toss does 2gate fe. Scout. See cheese? React. It's complicated yet simple at the same time.

There are plenty 2v2 competitions with real money on the line.

3v3 and 4v4 are a joke.
CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2120 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 18:38:42
June 28 2012 18:38 GMT
#5
On June 29 2012 03:30 PeanutsNJam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2012 02:15 a2thej wrote:Alot of high level 1v1 players dont do well at multiplayer because everything seems to be thrown out the window in multiplayerJ


I believe this is blatantly false. I'm not high level by any means, but two friends of mine (we're diamond and higher) decided to make a 3 man team and play some ladder matches. Won 12 in a row, got to high masters in a night. Let me repeat: I'm not high level by any means.

Pro 3v3/4v4 strat: rush and cheese. Better micro wins. I'm not even joking. Or, if you're playing against baddies, 15 nexus/hatch/cc and hold their 1 base push. Then win. Or just do safe 1v1 strats and do them well while communicating with your team. Then win. Zerg does 14 pool 15 hatch, terran does 2 rax fe, toss does 2gate fe. Scout. See cheese? React. It's complicated yet simple at the same time.

There are plenty 2v2 competitions with real money on the line.


3v3 and 4v4 are a joke.

All I can think of is Z33k, and that one 2v2 "proleague" that never really took off.
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 18:50:58
June 28 2012 18:43 GMT
#6
The 3v3 map pool is absolutely terrible and is really limiting any competitive play.

Some of the things you mentioned are good - always go after the strongest player for sure. Its almost impossible to fast expand in team games against opponents who are competant- the greediest expand I will ever do is a 2rax RE or a 3gateFE.

There are several strategies that work very well in team games that would pretty much never work in 1v1. I am going to post a couple of my favorite strats that are almost impossible in 1v1s but work great in team games. (I am Diamond Random)

Zerg

+ Show Spoiler +
6min Speedling Rush

Open with a 12-14 pool, and delay gas until your pool is almost finished. You want to delay gas to get out a second queen AND (here is the kicker) a very fast macro-hatch.

Ideally, you would hit 450 minerals around the time that your first queen finishes so you can immediately drop a macro hatch and a second queen. Once you are at 18 drones immediately switch to all out ling production. Only mine 100 gas for speed and put those drones back on minerals asap. Getting the macro hatch means that once you are ready for your second inject, you should be able to inject that hatch shortly after. Your speed should finish up when you are at about 20 lings and they should already be moving across the map.

Your objective here is to try and damage any opponents who neglect to wall off, and kill any expansions that go down. You can outright kill a zerg that goes for 1base roaches or a Protoss that doesn't wall.
DO NOT lose all your zerglings if possible - you need them for map control.
From here you can either transition into banelings (Get a nest, evo chamber, and at least 3 more drones for gas)
Or expand and do whatever you'd like (Having the macro hatch is great for droning up your expo)
Make sure to get ling attack upgrades and adrenal glands eventually.

*The build is most vulnerable to 8pools, proxys, etc. if you scout a fast pool, throw down a spine crawler in your mineral line as soon as your pool finishes.

2 Base Muta Rush

The objective of this build is to get 7-8 mutalisks out very quickly. It is best on large maps or maps with a pocket expansion.

You are going to either do a fast expand or a 12-14 pool/gas and expand behind it. In some cases you can skip zergling speed (if you are facing primarily protoss or sometimes even terran opponents) which will allow you a faster lair and spire.

Stay on one gas until your expansion is up, try to get 4 gasses up and running right away. your expansion is there to get more gas - not necessarily minerals, so its not necessary to saturate your expansion totally. Once you have almost saturated your main and have 100 gas start your lair. This is the most vulnerable time - make overlords and a spine crawler or two while you stack up gas. drop a spire as soon as your lair finishes, make a few lings for map awareness.

Once your spire pops, start +1 air attacks and as many mutas as you can afford, if done correctly, you will have around 800-800 minerals/gas saved at this time. Start harassing with your mutas - go for workers at first. Your goal is to keep your opponents off balance while your teammates macro and you can sometimes secure a 3rd base. From there you want to get a second spire for upgrades, and drop a macro hatch and dump your excess minerals into zerglings once you have 50-75 drones. If another zerg player is also going for mutas, kill them with either spine crawlers or get a couple infestors to leave around your base. Obviously your biggest threats are thors and high templars, magic box them or stay away, also, don't trade with blink stalkers if possible.

Another variation is to open with my fast macro hatch build then transition into mutas after expoing, but the mutas hit very late in that case.


Terran
+ Show Spoiler +

2rax FE

Probably my worst race, but I've had some success with a 2-rax fast expand build. basically open with a 12rax and a 13rax, then get a 15orbital/15depot 21depot. Throw down a second CC when you have some marines around 26 supply using the income from your first mule. You can either pressure your opponents or more likely, use them for defense. throw down your 4th depot and double gas around 30 supply. Your 2 rax should then get a tech lab and a reactor.

From here you can do different stuff, but once I start mining from my nat I usually get the following; 3 more barracks, double engineering bay, a factory and a bunker or 2. Once the factory is done start a reactor and starport right away. stay on 2 gas for a while since you only need gas for upgrades and medivacs and a few marauders mixed in. Late game you want to start getting vikings out to kill colossus and brood lords.


Protoss
+ Show Spoiler +

4gate Blink

A simple build that should work until probably high plat/dia is a 4gate+blink build. Open standard, but you want to get your cybercore down as soon as your first gateway finishes up. Then add on a second gateway and use those to make around 3 stalkers a zealot or 2 (you can skip the sentries in most cases). you only will need to chrono warp gate 2 times, maybe 3, since you aren't going to push until blink is done.

Add on your twilight council once you are at 2 gateways and have started warp gate. Once WG is about 2/3 of the way done, add on your 3rd and 4th gateways. This build is good for early pressure, in lower leagues with good blink micro it can outright win the game. In higher leagues, you want to coordinate your attack with your teammates - using overlords to spot the high ground is essential for getting your stalkers into the enemy base. If you sense the attack is going badly, back off and try to save as many stalkers as possible. In most cases you can continue to harass and use them for map control while you expand behind the pressure.

Once you get your expo up, make sure to add on a least 1 forge for upgrades (preferably 2 since you already have the council for upgrade abilitiy) and a robotics bay (you can go for immortals against mech or mass roach, or colloss against ling/festor, bio, or another protoss) as well as at least 1 more gateway (2 is optimal)

Keep in mind that a 4 gate in a team game is not completely all-in. It is completely viable to 4 gate just to have enough units to secure an expo, however if you see the enemy team all going for a fast expand, you will need to put on pressure and try to do damage so you can keep up in the macro game.


Anyway, I hope some of this helps, in general its important to remember that the key difference in team games is that the rate of expansion is normally going to be slower since fast expansions get punished easily.

edit - Oh, I can also provide some replays if needed, I also made a video demonstrating the 2 base muta rush strat on my youtube channel Here~~
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
a2thej
Profile Joined June 2012
9 Posts
June 28 2012 18:44 GMT
#7
Im just talking from experience and my knowledge, Yes obviously some high level players can make a team for 2v2 3v3 and get to a high level like they did in 1v1, But the game is different and alot of players who are used to very fast expo's and other things have trouble in the initial adaption. Obviously they're micro and scouting and macro does carry over but it is a completely different game for the most part, 2v2 and 3v3 also very different from each other.

Also i am unaware of any 2v2 3v3 4v4 proleagues that took of like the poster above said...

sorry though im not looking to start an arguement.. Id just like to discuss strats for multiplayer

thanks
PeanutsNJam
Profile Joined April 2011
United States175 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-28 18:59:20
June 28 2012 18:54 GMT
#8
On June 29 2012 03:44 a2thej wrote:
Im just talking from experience and my knowledge, Yes obviously some high level players can make a team for 2v2 3v3 and get to a high level like they did in 1v1, But the game is different and alot of players who are used to very fast expo's and other things have trouble in the initial adaption. Obviously they're micro and scouting and macro does carry over but it is a completely different game for the most part, 2v2 and 3v3 also very different from each other.

Also i am unaware of any 2v2 3v3 4v4 proleagues that took of like the poster above said...

sorry though im not looking to start an arguement.. Id just like to discuss strats for multiplayer

thanks


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345871

Here is just ONE of the many 2v2 tournaments out there. Use Google. I said competition, not proleague.

And you're still trying to say that 1v1 skills do not translate over to team games. This, again, is blatantly false. If their micro, scouting, and macro all carry over, what else is left that is more important than those 3? Strategy? Macro is strategy. Marco tells you where/when to expand, when to make workers, what upgrades to get, when to get them, when to tech, and when to win. "I'm gonna go roaches you go vikings ohkey?" is not strategy. "I'm gonna secure this 3rd with roaches while you kill their overlords and harass their mineral lines with vikings in the midgame okay?" Is strategy.

You cannot say 3v3 is different and is therefore harder. You also cannot say 3v3/2v2 are different because they're different.

Discussing strategy is fine, but don't try to express your opinions as facts through subtle undertones.

Oh, and TheFish is right. Even the maps suck. You can barely get a 3rd, and you have to share the 3rd with your teammates. This means all you can do are 1/2 base plays. It's like chess 3v3 except you try to fit all 6 players' pieces on a board that's only twice as big.
a2thej
Profile Joined June 2012
9 Posts
June 28 2012 19:10 GMT
#9
The strats of 1v1 and the mindset doesnt work 2v2 3v3.. u have to adjust ur BO and attack strats
I played with a masters 1v1 player yesterday and he had alot of trouble with the 2v2 and 3v3
lie i said im not looking for argue im just trying to discuss strategy i feel ur brining arguement into this.

so lets just stay on track...

as far a maps sucking and not being able to get a 3rd etc.... because of this i have to adjust play style and try to end games earlier than if i had lots of potential bases....

Vralaren
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden130 Posts
June 28 2012 19:44 GMT
#10
Well a cool 2v2 army comp is phoenix tank transitioning into blink stalker collossus tank (any unit that u need vs enemy unit ball). Its fun, strong and relatively safe. Also muta ling is my favourite team game combo. It requires decent micro but is very fun and strong! And it syncs good with anything since all u do is basicly counter and run around.
Its like stealing candy from.... Someone u steal candy from! -LiquidSheth♥
a2thej
Profile Joined June 2012
9 Posts
June 28 2012 19:50 GMT
#11
yes i like that build as well, If i dont get a good read on my scout. I usually go 3 gate tech to blink then robo while my team mate harasses and scouts with his lings while transitioning into muta...
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
June 28 2012 21:05 GMT
#12
Please read the strategy forum guidelines.
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