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I watch GSL to see the best starcraft players competing each other. I watch other big tournaments to root for my "heroes" and not to see GSL 2nd edition. Because of that a good tournament has koreans(=the best players), foreigners, local heroes etc.
Easy as that.
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Foreingers just need to get better. The end. Teams need a coach or copy something the korean houses are doing right
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I hope ItG and SoTG don't waste a single second of their time on the piece of shit thread. Write a blog or complain to your stuffed animals.
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On June 06 2012 23:04 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 22:59 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:57 ceaRshaf wrote:On June 06 2012 22:56 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:55 ceaRshaf wrote:On June 06 2012 22:46 zefreak wrote:On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote:
I want to see a member of my family play.
I want to see a member of my neighborhood play.
I want to see a member of my town play.
I want to see a member of my country play.
I want to see a member of my continent play.
I want to see a member of my planet play.
I want to see a member of my Arm play.
I want to see a member of my Galaxy play.
I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract. If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns? There are some morality issues involved in here as well. Your team is Romania. It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea. Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT! When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself. You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic. When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later....... You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
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On June 06 2012 23:04 mTwTT1 wrote:
sorry for lashing out im just super frustrated at not only myself but at how lazy, dumb, clueless the western esports scene is compared to the korean scene. when i think about the differences between both scenes it feels like were at least 10-20 years behind them and that to me is so disheartening
I understand the frustration, it sucks.
Oh well there's always Starcraft 3.
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On June 06 2012 23:02 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 22:55 ceaRshaf wrote:On June 06 2012 22:46 zefreak wrote:On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote:
I want to see a member of my family play.
I want to see a member of my neighborhood play.
I want to see a member of my town play.
I want to see a member of my country play.
I want to see a member of my continent play.
I want to see a member of my planet play.
I want to see a member of my Arm play.
I want to see a member of my Galaxy play.
I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract. If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns? There are some morality issues involved in here as well. I wouldn't choose which side of a war to fight on based on where I happened to be born. If I lived in North Korea and we went to war with the US I'm pretty sure I would fight for the other side in an instant (assuming I have the knowledge that I do currently). People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are a problem. People who fight for a cause, regardless of country, are to be respected. The same holds for Starcraft.
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are exhibiting human nature. Patriotism may not be rational, but it sure as hell is a powerful emotion. You just want to ignore it. Good luck with that.
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On June 06 2012 23:01 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 22:58 Maxquatre wrote:On June 06 2012 22:57 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:56 Maxquatre wrote:On June 06 2012 22:54 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:52 Maxquatre wrote:On June 06 2012 22:46 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:45 mTwTT1 wrote:On June 06 2012 22:23 antilyon wrote:On June 06 2012 21:29 mTwTT1 wrote:[quote] LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do  Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses. this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time. Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football. You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best. Which is exactly what happens in Sc2. They are also flown to Europe at 16-18 which is well into their development. Except they are paid and practice with good players while foreigners going to korea have to spend lots of money and can pretty much only ladder. Foreigners are paid by their teams to be in Korea. That's why they are all staying there since the beginning of SC2, right ? I wonder why we hold tournament in the west since all foreigners are in Korea, oh wait. They all left because they were either A) Too bad at the game to have any success in Korean or B) Because they were half good they could make more money outside of Korea where everyone is shitty. Every top foreigner could easily be living in Korea full time right now if they wanted to, but they chose not to.
Not choosing to go to Korea is the more reasonable choice.
I mean seriously, you would leave everything you have at home right now behind, in order to have the chance to get better at this video game. Explain that to you friends and family, try to sell it as part of your resume. Do you assume the teams right now have enough money to pay for their players to be in korea.
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On June 06 2012 23:02 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 22:55 ceaRshaf wrote:On June 06 2012 22:46 zefreak wrote:On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote:
I want to see a member of my family play.
I want to see a member of my neighborhood play.
I want to see a member of my town play.
I want to see a member of my country play.
I want to see a member of my continent play.
I want to see a member of my planet play.
I want to see a member of my Arm play.
I want to see a member of my Galaxy play.
I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract. If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns? There are some morality issues involved in here as well. I wouldn't choose which side of a war to fight on based on where I happened to be born. If I lived in North Korea and we went to war with the US I'm pretty sure I would fight for the other side in an instant (assuming I have the knowledge that I do currently). People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are a problem. People who fight for a cause, regardless of country, are to be respected. The same holds for Starcraft.
The hole point of fighting for a place and the people in that place is because you share a history together and that IS THE CAUSE!
That's why you care for old friends and family, because other than your history with them those people are probably worse than your average human on earth.
And from this we get to loyalty. But that has no place in your world where we act like machines where if 1>0 we choose 1.
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Austria24422 Posts
On June 06 2012 23:04 mTwTT1 wrote:
sorry for lashing out im just super frustrated at not only myself but at how lazy, dumb, clueless the western esports scene is compared to the korean scene. when i think about the differences between both scenes it feels like were at least 10-20 years behind them and that to me is so disheartening
Basically what Wolf said - "guess what MVP is not doing right now? Giving a damn about the drama happening on TL."
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Norway25712 Posts
On June 06 2012 23:01 m0ck wrote:Whether people like it or not, viewership does not follow skill and most people are more interested in players from the Americas and Europe than Korea. Which is why I think it is a dangerous path for the long term prospects of the SC2-scene to have international tournaments as dominated by Koreans as what we're currently seeing in MLG. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341580
Do you also consider timezones with this, or is it possible to get some sort of demographical statistics?
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This thread needs a poll. In fact, most threads that are ignorant opinions of less intelligent individuals should have polls, so that the community can show him/her just how naive and childish they are with their extreme ethnocentrism and whatnot.
Something like "Should foreign tournaments limit the number of Koreans?"
With options like "Yes! I support the idea of a foreign tournament where us white guys can have higher chances of winning if we place all the Koreans in one group and the one who makes it out plays a gauntlet of our best players - we will call it Code C. And if you do badly, you go to Code D. But if you win Code C, you're crowned as the current foreign bonjwa - which gets you seeded into Code B of the GSL!"
And "No! I value competition, I value professionalism, I value the best displays of micro/macro, the best decision-making, the best mechanics, the highest levels of skill, talent, practice and dedication."
User was warned for this post
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I wouldn't choose which side of a war to fight on based on where I happened to be born. If I lived in North Korea and we went to war with the US I'm pretty sure I would fight for the other side in an instant (assuming I have the knowledge that I do currently).
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are a problem. People who fight for a cause, regardless of country, are to be respected.
The same holds for Starcraft.
So many better analogies than what side you fight for in a war.. People prefer to cheer on someone they can identify with or someone that they know a lot about. Say what you want, but top notch foreigners get more views just because they are foreigners, and since MLG knows this they will work out a way to factor them in some way. (like what they did with lol)
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[/QUOTE]hen my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.[/QUOTE]
I agree completely with this observation
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While you're at it you should petition the NBA to put a cap on black people who can be on each team. Even though the skill level would drop in each game, at least there would be more white people on the court at one time!!11!!!1
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On June 06 2012 23:06 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 23:01 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:58 Maxquatre wrote:On June 06 2012 22:57 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:56 Maxquatre wrote:On June 06 2012 22:54 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:52 Maxquatre wrote:On June 06 2012 22:46 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:45 mTwTT1 wrote:On June 06 2012 22:23 antilyon wrote:
[quote]
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who?
DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too?
If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses. this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time. Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football. You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best. Which is exactly what happens in Sc2. They are also flown to Europe at 16-18 which is well into their development. Except they are paid and practice with good players while foreigners going to korea have to spend lots of money and can pretty much only ladder. Foreigners are paid by their teams to be in Korea. That's why they are all staying there since the beginning of SC2, right ? I wonder why we hold tournament in the west since all foreigners are in Korea, oh wait. They all left because they were either A) Too bad at the game to have any success in Korean or B) Because they were half good they could make more money outside of Korea where everyone is shitty. Every top foreigner could easily be living in Korea full time right now if they wanted to, but they chose not to. Not choosing to go to Korea is the more reasonable choice. I mean seriously, you would leave everything you have at home right now behind, in order to have the chance to get better at this video game. Explain that to you friends and family, try to sell it as part of your resume. Do you assume the teams right now have enough money to pay for their players to be in korea.
A lot of teams are paying for player to live in Korea.
Essien, Drogba and Eto'o had to leave their families for Europe and it paid off for them. There's hundreds of African players playing in the Belgian third division who it didn't pay off for. That's life.
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On June 06 2012 23:05 Ethi wrote:
I watch GSL to see the best starcraft players competing each other. I watch other big tournaments to root for my "heroes" and not to see GSL 2nd edition. Because of that a good tournament has koreans(=the best players), foreigners, local heroes etc.
Easy as that.
I believe MLG is aware of that and if its getting to much of a problem they will change it,
but since then just quit the stream as soon as you dont want to watch it anymore 
I would be so excited if players like Select TLO Jinro would make it to the finals but i wont shut of the stream just becouse they are out. So its my fault they not only invite those 3 players competing over and over ;D
Oh this threat is too funny :D
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On June 06 2012 23:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 23:04 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On June 06 2012 22:59 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:57 ceaRshaf wrote:On June 06 2012 22:56 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:55 ceaRshaf wrote:On June 06 2012 22:46 zefreak wrote:On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote:
I want to see a member of my family play.
I want to see a member of my neighborhood play.
I want to see a member of my town play.
I want to see a member of my country play.
I want to see a member of my continent play.
I want to see a member of my planet play.
I want to see a member of my Arm play.
I want to see a member of my Galaxy play.
I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract. If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns? There are some morality issues involved in here as well. Your team is Romania. It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea. Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT! When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself. You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic. When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later....... You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow. No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
This is funny because the world cup does the exact thing the OP is talking about. They're limiting the amount of teams per region so more than just the "best" nations can participate, and therefore more people can get the excitement from seeing their team\country play.
edit: Oh, and olympics as well
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On June 06 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 22:19 Ace1123 wrote:
AnD banning Koreans is like racism. So The OP wants koreans to stay in korea and not allow them to join tournaments in Foreign countries because they always win?. That doesn't sound right. In fact If we want Sc2 to grow more, Players all-over the world should join as many tournaments as possible worldwide A tournament is allowed to have a rule that says only 10 players per country are allowed. That is not racism even though it would be directly aimed to Koreans .
The travel expenses alone should set a soft limit on Koreans at MLG.
If you wanna bitch about something, bitch about foreign teams picking up cheap talent.
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Its bad to restrict who gets to play in a certain tournament, it should be qualifiers so does who are the best are in the tournament
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On June 06 2012 23:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 23:04 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On June 06 2012 22:59 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:57 ceaRshaf wrote:On June 06 2012 22:56 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 06 2012 22:55 ceaRshaf wrote:On June 06 2012 22:46 zefreak wrote:On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote:
I want to see a member of my family play.
I want to see a member of my neighborhood play.
I want to see a member of my town play.
I want to see a member of my country play.
I want to see a member of my continent play.
I want to see a member of my planet play.
I want to see a member of my Arm play.
I want to see a member of my Galaxy play.
I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract. If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns? There are some morality issues involved in here as well. Your team is Romania. It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea. Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT! When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself. You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic. When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later....... You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow. No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
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EPT
