READ: Guys, this is about a black woman, offering a new appraoch to obesity problem among blacks, and how this new perspective on the issue can bring about a more effective and meaningful solution to the obesity problem. Don't just read the title and post a stupid reply.
Alice Randall, a canon in American literature, says that the whole obesity thing (four out of five black women are seriously overweight) is being looked at in all the wrong approaches. Randall presents a new perspective to this issue, what she calls "body-culture revolution in black Amercia" that explains black woman are fat because they want to be.
Randall cites literature and songs that adore voluptuousness. A 1987 poem “Homage to My Hips” begins with the boast, “These hips are big hips.” She establishes big black hips as something a woman would want to have and a man would desire.
There is also politics in it, other than the aesthetic reason. The fat black woman’s body “functions as a site of resistance to both gendered and racialized oppression.” By contextualizing fatness within the African diaspora, she invites us to notice that the fat black woman can be a rounded opposite of the fit black slave, that the fatness of black women has often functioned as both explicit political statement and active political resistance.
From this fresh perspective, Randall claims that it is easy to aproach the obesity problem. She acknowledges that the money spent on anti-diabetes and anti-obesity program is better spent on education and technology. That is why in her small way, she is helping other women in the community to "keep it below 200 pounds", in various exercise, diet, and yoga programs. She is hopeful that while she may never be as fit as she wants, at least it will be hard for her daughter and future generation to get fat.
FOUR out of five black women are seriously overweight. One out of four middle-aged black women has diabetes. With $174 billion a year spent on diabetes-related illness in America and obesity quickly overtaking smoking as a cause of cancer deaths, it is past time to try something new.
What we need is a body-culture revolution in black America. Why? Because too many experts who are involved in the discussion of obesity don’t understand something crucial about black women and fat: many black women are fat because we want to be.
The black poet Lucille Clifton’s 1987 poem “Homage to My Hips” begins with the boast, “These hips are big hips.” She establishes big black hips as something a woman would want to have and a man would desire. She wasn’t the first or the only one to reflect this community knowledge. Twenty years before, in 1967, Joe Tex, a black Texan, dominated the radio airwaves across black America with a song he wrote and recorded, “Skinny Legs and All.” One of his lines haunts me to this day: “some man, somewhere who’ll take you baby, skinny legs and all.” For me, it still seems almost an impossibility.
Chemically, in its ability to promote disease, black fat may be the same as white fat. Culturally it is not.
How many white girls in the ’60s grew up praying for fat thighs? I know I did. I asked God to give me big thighs like my dancing teacher, Diane. There was no way I wanted to look like Twiggy, the white model whose boy-like build was the dream of white girls. Not with Joe Tex ringing in my ears.
How many middle-aged white women fear their husbands will find them less attractive if their weight drops to less than 200 pounds? I have yet to meet one.
But I know many black women whose sane, handsome, successful husbands worry when their women start losing weight. My lawyer husband is one.
Another friend, a woman of color who is a tenured professor, told me that her husband, also a tenured professor and of color, begged her not to lose “the sugar down below” when she embarked on a weight-loss program.
And it’s not only aesthetics that make black fat different. It’s politics too. To get a quick introduction to the politics of black fat, I recommend Andrea Elizabeth Shaw’s provocative book “The Embodiment of Disobedience: Fat Black Women’s Unruly Political Bodies.” Ms. Shaw argues that the fat black woman’s body “functions as a site of resistance to both gendered and racialized oppression.” By contextualizing fatness within the African diaspora, she invites us to notice that the fat black woman can be a rounded opposite of the fit black slave, that the fatness of black women has often functioned as both explicit political statement and active political resistance.
When the biologist Daniel Lieberman suggested in a public lecture at Harvard this past February that exercise for everyone should be mandated by law, the audience applauded, the Harvard Gazette reported. A room full of thin affluent people applauding the idea of forcing fatties, many of whom are dark, poor and exhausted, to exercise appalls me. Government mandated exercise is a vicious concept. But I get where Mr. Lieberman is coming from. The cost of too many people getting too fat is too high.
I live in Nashville. There is an ongoing rivalry between Nashville and Memphis. In black Nashville, we like to think of ourselves as the squeaky-clean brown town best known for our colleges and churches. In contrast, black Memphis is known for its music and bars and churches. We often tease the city up the road by saying that in Nashville we have a church on every corner and in Memphis they have a church and a liquor store on every corner. Only now the saying goes, there’s a church, a liquor store and a dialysis center on every corner in black Memphis.
The billions that we are spending to treat diabetes is money that we don’t have for education reform or retirement benefits, and what’s worse, it’s estimated that the total cost of America’s obesity epidemic could reach almost $1 trillion by 2030 if we keep on doing what we have been doing.
WE have to change. Black women especially. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, blacks have 51 percent higher obesity rates than whites do. We’ve got to do better. I’ve weighed more than 200 pounds. Now I weigh less. It will always be a battle.
My goal is to be the last fat black woman in my family. For me that has meant swirling exercise into my family culture, of my own free will and volition. I have my own personal program: walk eight miles a week, sleep eight hours a night and drink eight glasses of water a day.
I call on every black woman for whom it is appropriate to commit to getting under 200 pounds or to losing the 10 percent of our body weight that often results in a 50 percent reduction in diabetes risk. Sleeping better may be key, as recent research suggests that lack of sleep is a little-acknowledged culprit in obesity. But it is not just sleep, exercise and healthy foods we need to solve this problem — we also need wisdom.
I expect obesity will be like alcoholism. People who know the problem intimately find their way out, then lead a few others. The few become millions.
Down here, that movement has begun. I hold Zumba classes in my dining room, have a treadmill in my kitchen and have organized yoga classes for women up to 300 pounds. And I’ve got a weighted exercise Hula-Hoop I call the black Cadillac. Our go-to family dinner is sliced cucumbers, salsa, spinach and scrambled egg whites with onions. Our go-to snack is peanut butter — no added sugar or salt — on a spoon. My quick breakfast is a roasted sweet potato, no butter, or Greek yogurt with six almonds.
That’s soul food, Nashville 2012.
I may never get small doing all of this. But I have made it much harder for the next generation, including my 24-year-old daughter, to get large.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
I believe people are fat because that's how we are supposed to react to having unlimited amounts of food^^ It's still a really really bad thing though and we should all try to stay healthy
This article is completely littered with standard human cognitive biases. Almost all of her evidence is anecdotal--"I wanted to be fat, so it's probably something most people feel" or "I remember hearing women say they wanted to be fat, so most of them must feel that way." Confirmation bias: humans remember that which conforms to their presuppositions, and ignore that which does not.
What I think is more likely is that black women, being a racially oppressed minority, garner more social support from each other than do white women. As a result, their bodies are generally praised, regardless of what they look like. Being proud of your body is something that is almost necessary when the entire issue of racial discrimination is centered around what you look like (i.e. your skin color). In other words, black communities are less self-critical of their members' looks, because being critical of how they look is exactly the issue that they're fighting AGAINST.
The result is that fat black people are not selectively targeted for humiliation, as are commonly white people, and less pressure is on them to change the way they look. The unfortunate result is an increased prevalence of weight-related problems, such as diabetes and cardiovascular problems. Compound this with the fact that blacks generally fall into lower income brackets, and those in lower income brackets eat less healthy in general, and we have a weight issue that is a combination of culture and socioeconomic status.
The issue is not as simple as the article leads us to believe, and I actually dislike the message. Black people don't want to be fat. They know it's not healthy, and saying that they want to be fat seems almost racist to me.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
i mean this might be part of the reason, but lets be serious here, the reason they are overweight - just like most other overweight people - is that they love food and cant/dont wanna stop eating it
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
On May 14 2012 23:27 Archas wrote: Well, this thread turned to shit real fast.
Well its both racial and national so... In America race becomes crap real quick. Also the keep referring to themselves as African Americans or they use a negative word that has nothing to do with race and just means worthless piece of crap who doesn't like to work. They are Black. heck, not even all African Americans are black. My moms boyfriend is one that is white!
On May 14 2012 23:26 JitnikoVi wrote: i mean this might be part of the reason, but lets be serious here, the reason they are overweight - just like most other overweight people - is that they love food and cant/dont wanna stop eating it
dat kfc real gud
There is a reason why every McDonald's ad recently features African-Americans.
On May 14 2012 23:26 JitnikoVi wrote: i mean this might be part of the reason, but lets be serious here, the reason they are overweight - just like most other overweight people - is that they love food and cant/dont wanna stop eating it
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
I remember an article on I think it was my final last year comparing white and black teenagers, and how white girls tended to try to be supermodel skinny while black girls were more lax about their weight.
I mean there's limits, nothing appealing about the stereotypical 300-pound Shaniqua, but hey, if you're fine with it, and your friends and family are fine with it, you can weigh whatever you want.
The OP should really remake this with a better title, there is an actual interesting discussion to have here about the relationship between race, economics, and health in America today. But the title throws that off completely, and I'm not sure that one article from a literary professor is enough of a starting point.
On May 14 2012 23:26 JitnikoVi wrote: i mean this might be part of the reason, but lets be serious here, the reason they are overweight - just like most other overweight people - is that they love food and cant/dont wanna stop eating it
The issue is so much larger than this, it gets into the effects of poverty on overall health as well as cultural norms that affect health; such at types of food regularly eaten.
On May 14 2012 23:34 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I remember an article on I think it was my final last year comparing white and black teenagers, and how white girls tended to try to be supermodel skinny while black girls were more lax about their weight.
I mean there's limits, nothing appealing about the stereotypical 300-pound Shaniqua, but hey, if you're fine with it, and your friends and family are fine with it, you can weigh whatever you want.
You still get the super skinny cat preps. I personally prefer mine not super skinny but not too fat. A good fit build. Man I love my wife! BTW nice Marx qoute.
On May 14 2012 23:33 RageBot wrote: Man, I thought this thread would've been closed in like five minutes.
Obviously you haven't read the op. If so, please just leave. There is a good discussion to be had here.
Its racial in in America thats auto ban unless your a minority for some reason... Why do they use the N word so much Its a sign of stupidity and it makes MLK sad...
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Not necasarrily. More black idiots are in shape then smart ones.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
On May 14 2012 23:46 kef wrote: Well the responses in this thread have gone almost exactly how I'd expected them to...
What? me saying the smart blacks men are more likely to be out of shape then the dumb ones. Another interesting fact. Black men are more likely to falsely accuse an authority figure of rape then any other race,
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
I actually found proof otherwise. That said a fat black idiot is more likely to steal food then any other demographic. Hispanics are the same across the board and fat white people use trickery.
i'm almost positive that an above-average rate of obesity in the black population isnt exclusive to women. i'm also pretty sure it has more to do with the accessibility of unhealthy food, and the relative inaccessibility of healthy food. i'm not saying it's impossible to eat healthily if you live in crown heights, brooklyn (for instance); i'm just saying you have to exert more effort to do so.
my opinion here is based completely off anecdotal evidence, so i reserve the right to change my mind given the proper evidence.
On May 14 2012 23:52 mmMacks wrote: i'm almost positive that an above-average rate of obesity in the black population isnt exclusive to women. i'm also pretty sure it has more to do with the accessibility of unhealthy food, and the relative inaccessibility of healthy food. i'm not saying it's impossible to eat healthily if you live in crown heights, brooklyn (for instance); i'm just saying you have to exert more effort to do so.
my opinion here is based completely off anecdotal evidence, so i reserve the right to change my mind given the proper evidence.
No, white people are more likely to be fat then black men but less likely then the women.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
It is true, but only because blacks tend to grow up in environments that don't foster the skills that iq tests measure. It's nothing genetic; there is more genetic variation within races than between. And it's not even a causal relationship, the whole iq obesity thing, I mean. You don't need to be adjusted to solving puzzles to figure out what happens when you eat a lot of junk.
There's no doubt that many cultures regard being overweight as positive - after all, for a long time it was a sign of affluence, and still is in much of the world.
As to this specifically. . .eh, don't really see it, but whatever, it's not beyond possibility as a reason. I suspect the fact that American black people are of a lower social class on average than other ethnic groups has a larger amount to do with it.
On May 14 2012 23:52 mmMacks wrote: i'm almost positive that an above-average rate of obesity in the black population isnt exclusive to women. i'm also pretty sure it has more to do with the accessibility of unhealthy food, and the relative inaccessibility of healthy food. i'm not saying it's impossible to eat healthily if you live in crown heights, brooklyn (for instance); i'm just saying you have to exert more effort to do so.
my opinion here is based completely off anecdotal evidence, so i reserve the right to change my mind given the proper evidence.
Yeah but couldn't you just eat less of it?
If the food is more calorific, eat less of it. Then "Calories In" < "Calories Out" and you lose weight.
The article is an opinion piece backed up by anecdotal evidence and thus is kind of worthless. If you look at actual studies the largest factor by far in rates of obesity is income (source). This is mainly due to the cheapest food per calorie being exeptionally unhealthy (source). Given that there is still a lot of income inequality in black communities in the US it is a reasonable conclusion that poverty not a cultural norm is responsible for high obesity rates.
On May 14 2012 23:52 mmMacks wrote: i'm almost positive that an above-average rate of obesity in the black population isnt exclusive to women. i'm also pretty sure it has more to do with the accessibility of unhealthy food, and the relative inaccessibility of healthy food. i'm not saying it's impossible to eat healthily if you live in crown heights, brooklyn (for instance); i'm just saying you have to exert more effort to do so.
my opinion here is based completely off anecdotal evidence, so i reserve the right to change my mind given the proper evidence.
Yeah but couldn't you just eat less of it?
If the food is more calorific, eat less of it. Then "Calories In" < "Calories Out" and you lose weight.
Unfortunately this simple logic doesn't really work for most people.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
It is true, but only because blacks tend to grow up in environments that don't foster the skills that iq tests measure. It's nothing genetic; there is more genetic variation within races than between. And it's not even a causal relationship, the whole iq obesity thing, I mean. You don't need to be adjusted to solving puzzles to figure out what happens when you eat a lot of junk.
I thought it was due to unhealthy diets, a lot of fast food and etc. Another thing to consider is poverty attributing to this since fast food is relatively cheap and accessible.
Generally this is a poverty issue that trickles down.
This is ridiculously racist. After the entire Destiny affair, seeing this sort of topic open and these sort of replies is absurd. I'm appalled that such a topic is even left open. There isn't even a legimate discussion here. Black women are fat because they want to be? Because being fat is the opposite of being a starving slave?
Fucking ridiculous. I'm not the kind of person to be offended but I find the topic immensely distasteful, it would be much better off closed.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
No, you are wrong. Don't make such definitive statements when you don't know. It'll stop you calling people ignorant because of your own ignorance.
There is evidence that Black people have a lower IQ. However, that does not mean it's genetic or anything to do with race, as it's most likely to do with the different socio-economic circumstances black people are (unfortunately) in.
I also don't like IQ as a good test of intelligence. There's a lot of info on this out there, and a very good BBC documentary.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
It is true, but only because blacks tend to grow up in environments that don't foster the skills that iq tests measure. It's nothing genetic; there is more genetic variation within races than between. And it's not even a causal relationship, the whole iq obesity thing, I mean. You don't need to be adjusted to solving puzzles to figure out what happens when you eat a lot of junk.
I'm dead serious in Texas more black idiots are fit then smart ones. I'll count next time i go to work to prove it. I have a huge source of morons. All I have to do is count the blacks then count the fatties. Then count how many smart black people I worked with are fat. It goes up by like 40%
On May 14 2012 23:08 obsidia wrote: maybe they are fat because they eat too much?
stop trying to make a political statement out of some completely inane issue.
My thoughts exactly.
There may exist a culture that likes a big bum, but that's different to being over 200lbs. They just eat crap and way too much of it.
Even if I was in shape I'd be over 200 pounds. I only have like 35 pounds of fat. Last i checked I was like 279.
Yeah well I'm the similar, I'm lean and weight 92kgs because of my height/weight lifting. Perhaps I should have looked up a body fat percentage but I just guessed off what I know an average woman's weight is.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
Doesn't even matter if it's racist, it's incredibly ignorant and it shows that he didn't read the OP at all. The OP explains exactly why black culture embraces obesity, and uses examples of black individuals who are doubtlessly more educated than the poster accusing them of having low IQs. I don't see how a correlation between low IQ and black people, or low IQ and obesity could be drawn from the OP.
I could never understand the black fascination with overweight women, but then again, I suppose it's all cultural. In white culture, we're taught to embody/worship skinny and cute models. Very interesting how these cultural norms overwrite our natural instincts to find a good genetic mate (since I think neither obese or twig-thin girls are ideal genetically).
On May 14 2012 23:56 imallinson wrote: The article is an opinion piece backed up by anecdotal evidence and thus is kind of worthless. If you look at actual studies the largest factor by far in rates of obesity is income (source). This is mainly due to the cheapest food per calorie being exeptionally unhealthy (source). Given that there is still a lot of income inequality in black communities in the US it is a reasonable conclusion that poverty not a cultural norm is responsible for high obesity rates.
EXACTLY! More black people are poor. And poor people are usually fat or very skinny. That said the criminal type is more likely to stay in shape in the lower money brackets. I suppose I may not have enough evedence any more for my previous theory becuase this is why most black people I deal with are fit and muscular.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
It is true, but only because blacks tend to grow up in environments that don't foster the skills that iq tests measure. It's nothing genetic; there is more genetic variation within races than between. And it's not even a causal relationship, the whole iq obesity thing, I mean. You don't need to be adjusted to solving puzzles to figure out what happens when you eat a lot of junk.
I'm dead serious in Texas more black idiots are fit then smart ones. I'll count next time i go to work to prove it. I have a huge source of morons. All I have to do is count the blacks then count the fatties. Then count how many smart black people I worked with are fat. It goes up by like 40%
why are you taking the liberty to respond to so many things not directed at you, i hardly think you counting the amount of black people in your work place and then applying your opinion on which ones are smart or not will be concrete enough to confirm or deny your statement. maybe your "natural body armor" is a condition of mindless replying to peoples posts on TL. imo.
On May 14 2012 23:57 KingAce wrote: I thought it was due to unhealthy diets, a lot of fast food and etc. Another thing to consider is poverty attributing to this since fast food is relatively cheap and accessible.
Which is actually far more important to the diabesity epidemic in America. Soda costs less than water in many cases, and certainly less than juice or any other drink it might be 'competing' with for sales. The same applies to just about all totally unhealthy food. Lack of exercise is also a major contributor. Could cultural norms within the African American community be a reinforcing factor for some? Absolutely. But if anyone thinks that overweight youth aren't victimized by their peers in black communities is full of shit. The article cited in the Op is full of anecdotal garbage masquerading as facts. It's an opinion piece so it's not like the NYT is actually reporting any of it either, it's just some educated idiot's letter to the editor.
On May 14 2012 23:08 obsidia wrote: maybe they are fat because they eat too much?
stop trying to make a political statement out of some completely inane issue.
My thoughts exactly.
There may exist a culture that likes a big bum, but that's different to being over 200lbs. They just eat crap and way too much of it.
Even if I was in shape I'd be over 200 pounds. I only have like 35 pounds of fat. Last i checked I was like 279.
Yeah well I'm the similar, I'm lean and weight 92kgs because of my height/weight lifting. Perhaps I should have looked up a body fat percentage but I just guessed off what I know an average woman's weight is.
I think you got my point though.
On top of that most people have different body types compared to what they think is "perfect." I've seen skinny girls fail it becuase they have a B-cup. All farmers and ranchers automatically fail and most people with genetics for thicker bones fail. I have german and norwegian genes and the norse is highly evident in me. I have the shorter fingers for the cold and everything. Put me in leather and a horned helmit and you'd think I was ransacking your village. Becuase of that I can't pass an index without lossing more of my fat and half my colon.
I think it more has to do with just general unhealthy eating in America, especially how it is concentrated in the lower socio-economic class. African Americans just tend to be on the lower socio-economic ladder, so the percentage of unhealthy eating is going to disproportionately affect them more than white people.
I have a hard time imagining that there are any links between African-American slavery and the women being fat. Its an interesting perspective but in this day and age its very rare for someone to have their life devoted to a political stance or cause, especially one that may hinder their image or day to day life. To me it seems and sounds just like a lame excuse.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
It is true, but only because blacks tend to grow up in environments that don't foster the skills that iq tests measure. It's nothing genetic; there is more genetic variation within races than between. And it's not even a causal relationship, the whole iq obesity thing, I mean. You don't need to be adjusted to solving puzzles to figure out what happens when you eat a lot of junk.
I'm dead serious in Texas more black idiots are fit then smart ones. I'll count next time i go to work to prove it. I have a huge source of morons. All I have to do is count the blacks then count the fatties. Then count how many smart black people I worked with are fat. It goes up by like 40%
why are you taking the liberty to respond to so many things not directed at you, i hardly think you counting the amount of black people in your work place and then applying your opinion on which ones are smart or not will be concrete enough to confirm or deny your statement. maybe your "natural body armor" is a condition of mindless replying to peoples posts on TL. imo.
Its a discusion and an open one. Also I work HS in corrections so I have plenty of idiots to contend with. The fact they fell all that distance and scream the N word at each other all day is enough. It is hard to get to HS in Texas.
On May 15 2012 00:07 Meteora.GB wrote: I have a hard time imagining that there are any links between African-American slavery and the women being fat. Its an interesting perspective but in this day and age its very rare for someone to have their life devoted to a political stance or cause, especially one that may hinder their image or day to day life. To me it seems and sounds just like a lame excuse.
I think You'd be right. Its not like the "Real Goth" versus the "poser" where the goth will become fat to set themself apart, though they claim its to go against social norms.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
On May 14 2012 23:58 Incognoto wrote: Fucking ridiculous. I'm not the kind of person to be offended but I find the topic immensely distasteful, it would be much better off closed.
Then don't read it?
I find the topic ridiculous. Too much food and no exercise leads to being overweight.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
Now I have been corrected. Still I doubt your dental would cover all the cosmetics they do here. Well at least you won't have renegade dentists who cap a kids entire mouth a week before they start to fall out. That was torture and all these years later I only have 1 left and I suspect its quality.. GB sounds a bit better now lolz.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
It is true, but only because blacks tend to grow up in environments that don't foster the skills that iq tests measure. It's nothing genetic; there is more genetic variation within races than between. And it's not even a causal relationship, the whole iq obesity thing, I mean. You don't need to be adjusted to solving puzzles to figure out what happens when you eat a lot of junk.
What does that mean?
It means that the genetics differ more within the same race (say, Chinese) than if you compared 2 races. The idea is that overall, races' genetics will average out to be more or less the same whereas genetics within the same race can be quite diverse. Don't be deceived by how different people of races can look as this is a very poor indicator of genetic similarity.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
What non-sense
People who post stupid things have a lower iq and are less educated on average.
The fat black woman’s body “functions as a site of resistance to both gendered and racialized oppression.” By contextualizing fatness within the African diaspora, she invites us to notice that the fat black woman can be a rounded opposite of the fit black slave, that the fatness of black women has often functioned as both explicit political statement and active political resistance.
I actually laughed out loud at the absurdity of this. People put a little too much thought and theory into pretty simple and obvious phenomenon.
The fat black woman’s body “functions as a site of resistance to both gendered and racialized oppression.” By contextualizing fatness within the African diaspora, she invites us to notice that the fat black woman can be a rounded opposite of the fit black slave, that the fatness of black women has often functioned as both explicit political statement and active political resistance.
I actually laughed out loud at the absurdity of this. People put a little too much thought and theory into pretty simple and obvious phenomenon.
I think maybe he posted it becuase they said it and he thought it was funny. I could see some one saying this though...
A huge percentage of African American women in the United States live in the Deep South or in the intercity... both of which are places with absurdly high levels of obesity... because you're discouraged from ever going outside, heat + violence, and because the available foodstuffs are either cheap and unhealthy or expensive and healthy... Who knows which they would choose >.>
I really hate it when people ignore the obvious and try to blow it off as a "cultural thing"... It's just half hearted racism hiding behind some idiotic notion of intellectualism.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
Now I have been corrected. Still I doubt your dental would cover all the cosmetics they do here. Well at least you won't have renegade dentists who cap a kids entire mouth a week before they start to fall out. That was torture and all these years later I only have 1 left and I suspect its quality.. GB sounds a bit better now lolz.
Covers braces and stuff for kids. Wouldn't cover whitening and stuff though, you'd have to pay for that.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
You would need a TON of muscle to be considered obese.
A 5'9" guy would need to be a little over 200 pounds to be considered obese. That's fucking huge if it's all muscle.
To give you some idea here is Asafa Powell, who is fairly large, even for a sprinter:
Where does he stack up on BMI? Right at 23.7, which doesn't even reach the "overweight" category let alone obese. In other words unless your really, really big you still won't even be classes as overweight by BMI due to muscle...and you would need to be absolutely HUGE to get anywhere near the obese standard.
So I guess everyone stopped posting. Everyone agree it is a cultural issue and not a racial issue?
Considering that scientifically there is no such thing as race...yes I think everyone can agree there. In terms of the obesity it could be a cultural/environmental thing however. I don't know the distribution of black women across the US but if many are in the deep south then environmental factors such as hot muggy weather for most of the year could certainly play their part as well.
Oh right, morbid obesity is exactly what those poems are describing.
Theres also a massive issue of processed food cultures, we're now moving into the 3rd generation of having large portions of the population that never learned to cook, essentially never learning to feed themselves. As such they're stuck having to eat whatever is convenient (a lot of people don't have time to cook when it takes them forever to buy and make something basic), and cheap, and what is convenient and cheap to deliver to people is unhealthy for pretty obvious reasons.
I don't think its strictly an African American issue, but rather a poor American issue. Regardless, I'm non-plussed by the beautiful black = obese black, maybe some people feel that way but the argument being made is pretty flimsy. Would be interested to see how many upper/middle class African Americans feel that way.
I don't know much about all the tribes in Africa but in some areas of the world the level of obesity a person has is a sign of prosperity. Not that that applies here.
Sadly and a bit off topic. in both the black population and the mexican population a want to return to roots and feelings of a "master race" have developed. African Americans that I mentioned this too said this was absurd and occasionally why they left their countries of origin (1 even being a white platation owner who fled a decade or 2 ago after fighting several wars.) Due to the idea of a "Master Race" scores have died in Russia, the Americas, Africa, Germany, Spain, and several other areas of the world. The most notable debaucles include Slavery across the world, mass murders during the Halocaust, the Aprtieds (I don't know how to spell it) in Africa, and so much more. If you have any thoughts of a race being better please discard them. No difference in mankind cannot be overcome.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
You would need a TON of muscle to be considered obese.
A 5'9" guy would need to be a little over 200 pounds to be considered obese. That's fucking huge if it's all muscle.
To give you some idea here is Asafa Powell, who is fairly large, even for a sprinter:
Where does he stack up on BMI? Right at 23.7, which doesn't even reach the "overweight" category let alone obese. In other words unless your really, really big you still won't even be classes as overweight by BMI due to muscle...and you would need to be absolutely HUGE to get anywhere near the obese standard.
I was going by what the BMI was when i was in school. Like I said, skinny girls failed it. The only one to be underweight (let alone pass) was the girl built like a wet noodle and slept with her head on her ankles. Also since you put that photo up I'd like to point out 1/4 of the black criminal element look that way in prison.
On May 14 2012 23:15 Damrak wrote: Title sounds as if all black women are fat.
i agree learn to title shit.
Considering 80% of them are overweight, I would say that the title is pretty damn close. Maybe you should take time to read the op and article before making judgements on the content. The title is there to advertise a subject, not be an abstract.
On May 15 2012 00:41 TheoryCraft wrote: Oh right, morbid obesity is exactly what those poems are describing.
Theres also a massive issue of processed food cultures, we're now moving into the 3rd generation of having large portions of the population that never learned to cook, essentially never learning to feed themselves. As such they're stuck having to eat whatever is convenient (a lot of people don't have time to cook when it takes them forever to buy and make something basic), and cheap, and what is convenient and cheap to deliver to people is unhealthy for pretty obvious reasons.
I don't think its strictly an African American issue, but rather a poor American issue. Regardless, I'm non-plussed by the beautiful black = obese black, maybe some people feel that way but the argument being made is pretty flimsy. Would be interested to see how many upper/middle class African Americans feel that way.
I'd have to agree. Unfortunately this means that the educated often are fat just due to time constraints which disproves for the final time "black people are fat becuase they are poor."
Yeah, it's the typical kind of nonsense that they like printing. Pointing the finger at the women "hey look they want to be fat!". Pointing the finger at the author "hey look he said such a stupid thing!". Avoiding the finger that should be pointing at themselves "why do you print this rubbish?"
EDIT: and all of you who are earnestly discussing the article, you are committing the mistake of taking it as something that should be argued about. Is the author right and black women want to be fat? Is the author wrong and stupid? That is not the issue here, the issue is what does the NYTimes want you to think, and what do you think the people around you will think, and why you do not pause and think : why am I not questioning being fed this rubbish?
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
On May 15 2012 00:50 Jinsho wrote: Yeah, it's the typical kind of nonsense that they like printing. Pointing the finger at the women "hey look they want to be fat!". Pointing the finger at the author "hey look he said such a stupid thing!". Avoiding the finger that should be pointing at themselves "why do you print this rubbish?"
The funny thing is last time I did that I got hacked. Lol.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
That's between 12 year olds in 2009.
That disproves the disproval..... ugh. Atleast they don't toture their kids.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
Are you FUCKING SERIOUS?!?! LOL, what a troll post.
"Hey guys, I'm on an international forum, so I'm going to imply that Black people, as a whole, are dumber than other groups in a statistically significant way! Maybe that's why they're fat!"
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
Are you FUCKING SERIOUS?!?! LOL, what a troll post.
"Hey guys, I'm on an international forum, so I'm going to imply that Black people, as a whole, are dumber than other groups in a statistically significant way! Maybe that's why they're fat!"
Hahahaha
Well to be fair he never called them dumb. He said there is a correlation with IQ and obesity, I have no clue if that's true or not but it sounds plausible at least. And they do score a lower mean IQ. We could debate whether IQ has anything at all to do with intelligence, but it's really irrelevant because his point is that the score correlates with obesity, he never even mentioned intelligence.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
It is true, but only because blacks tend to grow up in environments that don't foster the skills that iq tests measure. It's nothing genetic; there is more genetic variation within races than between. And it's not even a causal relationship, the whole iq obesity thing, I mean. You don't need to be adjusted to solving puzzles to figure out what happens when you eat a lot of junk.
Finally somebody gets it right. As a white guy from the Bronx I can tell you that the ENVIRONMENT that most black people grow up in is a horrible one. IQ is a direct result of your education btw - nothing to do with genes. They are simply not taught how to take care of themselves, they are more influenced by hip hop artists than by their school teachers. There is a McDonald's on every corner that provides cheaper food than the health food store they need to take a bus and a subway ride to get to. Race has got little to nothing to do with any of this - its all about the culture - the culture where being fat is acceptable for a black woman? Why? They aren't trying to get a white guy - they are trying to get a good black guy, and the culture says that black guys like women with more meat on them. So black women don't take care of themselves, they allow themselves to get fat because they don't recognize that it will have a negative impact on their lives. Then you have this mentality that says, I am a fierce, independant woman, "aint nobody gonna tell me what to do" Its just a recipe for fatness. Combine this with some delicious cooking, and well....
On May 15 2012 00:50 Jinsho wrote: Yeah, it's the typical kind of nonsense that they like printing. Pointing the finger at the women "hey look they want to be fat!". Pointing the finger at the author "hey look he said such a stupid thing!". Avoiding the finger that should be pointing at themselves "why do you print this rubbish?"
EDIT: and all of you who are earnestly discussing the article, you are committing the mistake of taking it as something that should be argued about. Is the author right and black women want to be fat? Is the author wrong and stupid? That is not the issue here, the issue is what does the NYTimes want you to think, and what do you think the people around you will think, and why you do not pause and think : why am I not questioning being fed this rubbish?
What rubbish? Did you even read the article? The author is essentially arguing that the African American community has become complacent about the issue of obesity, even accepting obesity as a cultural norm. Her point is that obesity shortens life expectancy and places hugh pressure on the healthcare system; and that the issue needs to begin to be taken seriously.
On May 14 2012 23:10 Saline wrote: This article is completely littered with standard human cognitive biases. Almost all of her evidence is anecdotal--"I wanted to be fat, so it's probably something most people feel" or "I remember hearing women say they wanted to be fat, so most of them must feel that way." Confirmation bias: humans remember that which conforms to their presuppositions, and ignore that which does not.
THIS
This woman is suffering from selective perception, uncontiously trying desperately to validade her own biases and perceptions
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
This seems incredibly racist. But it's probably true.
Well if it's an actual fact that black people have lower iq on average then it's not racist by any stretch of the imagination. If it's not true and he just believes they have lower iq then he would problaby be uninformed. If he was told that it's not true but he keeps believing black people are inferior in that way, then it's racism I guess.
there is no scientific backup whatsoever for that statement. that is nothing but ignorance
What causes the discrepancy is however disputed and there are a range of theories, check the link if you are interested.
As for the purpose of the thread I don´t really see what "new appraoch to obesity problem among blacks"she uses. Exercise and changing her families diet is hardly revolutionary? Starting exercise classes for others is of course a good thing. Specifically targeting black obese people instead of just obese people on the other hand come across as bit strange to me, I´m however not an american and this might bee the norm there?
As for the reasons for high obesity rates among blacks I would assume that SE factors play a large part. Sadly bad food are usually cheap food which not only means that poor are more likely to buy bad food but also that people descendant from poor people might carry with them a bad food culture even if their economic situation has improved. Most black people in the US for obvious reasons are descendants from lower classes. This however is pure speculation on my part.
On May 15 2012 00:50 Jinsho wrote: Yeah, it's the typical kind of nonsense that they like printing. Pointing the finger at the women "hey look they want to be fat!". Pointing the finger at the author "hey look he said such a stupid thing!". Avoiding the finger that should be pointing at themselves "why do you print this rubbish?"
EDIT: and all of you who are earnestly discussing the article, you are committing the mistake of taking it as something that should be argued about. Is the author right and black women want to be fat? Is the author wrong and stupid? That is not the issue here, the issue is what does the NYTimes want you to think, and what do you think the people around you will think, and why you do not pause and think : why am I not questioning being fed this rubbish?
What rubbish? Did you even read the article? The author is essentially arguing that the African American community has become complacent about the issue of obesity, even accepting obesity as a cultural norm. Her point is that obesity shortens life expectancy and places hugh pressure on the healthcare system; and that the issue needs to begin to be taken seriously.
What about that is objectionable?
It is a personal issue and isn't realy a "public issue." Also obesity isn't always the cause of the health issues. The problem is most of the time obesity is paired with inactivity. its like how every one blames tobacco for all the health problems though in fact it likely comes from the poisons they put in the cigarettes to burn slower and be perserved longer.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
Are you FUCKING SERIOUS?!?! LOL, what a troll post.
"Hey guys, I'm on an international forum, so I'm going to imply that Black people, as a whole, are dumber than other groups in a statistically significant way! Maybe that's why they're fat!"
Hahahaha
Well to be fair he never called them dumb. He said there is a correlation with IQ and obesity, I have no clue if that's true or not but it sounds plausible at least. And they do score a lower mean IQ. We could debate whether IQ has anything at all to do with intelligence, but it's really irrelevant because his point is that the score correlates with obesity, he never even mentioned intelligence.
I do not know about IQ, but I know that there is a correlation between academics and obesity.
Anyways, should the women want to be fat out of their own, then so be it. In that case they shouldn't complain if insurances give them higher policies due to the higher cost they (as a group) generate. However if they feel that they are forced to be fat, then they obviously should lean up against it. We are way past a time where people can force other people to be something they don't want to be.
On May 14 2012 23:10 Saline wrote: This article is completely littered with standard human cognitive biases. Almost all of her evidence is anecdotal--"I wanted to be fat, so it's probably something most people feel" or "I remember hearing women say they wanted to be fat, so most of them must feel that way." Confirmation bias: humans remember that which conforms to their presuppositions, and ignore that which does not.
THIS
This woman is suffering from selective perception, uncontiously trying desperately to validade her own biases and perceptions
Sadly most of us are guilty of this. i'm even guilty of it. Especially if my previous opinion met with an extreme problem forcing me to change it to begin with. Fact is the bigger the "evidence" to prove your stance the easier it is to ignore it.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
Now I have been corrected. Still I doubt your dental would cover all the cosmetics they do here. Well at least you won't have renegade dentists who cap a kids entire mouth a week before they start to fall out. That was torture and all these years later I only have 1 left and I suspect its quality.. GB sounds a bit better now lolz.
Dude.. its not like you cant get it if you want. Its just not free. You can get ANYTHING youre able to get at the US dentist at the UK one, except a lot of the options are free in the UK. I cant understand how people like you are naive enough to belive that a public dentist would remove all your teeth. No wonder youll never get public health care over there. ^^
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
Are you FUCKING SERIOUS?!?! LOL, what a troll post.
"Hey guys, I'm on an international forum, so I'm going to imply that Black people, as a whole, are dumber than other groups in a statistically significant way! Maybe that's why they're fat!"
Hahahaha
Well to be fair he never called them dumb. He said there is a correlation with IQ and obesity, I have no clue if that's true or not but it sounds plausible at least. And they do score a lower mean IQ. We could debate whether IQ has anything at all to do with intelligence, but it's really irrelevant because his point is that the score correlates with obesity, he never even mentioned intelligence.
I do not know about IQ, but I know that there is a correlation between academics and obesity.
Anyways, should the women want to be fat out of their own, then so be it. In that case they shouldn't complain if insurances give them higher policies due to the higher cost they (as a group) generate. However if they feel that they are forced to be fat, then they obviously should lean up against it. We are way past a time where people can force other people to be something they don't want to be.
That I can dispute. Academic types are often fat becuase they poor so much into their work. Your second statement I can concur with.
On May 15 2012 00:50 Jinsho wrote: Yeah, it's the typical kind of nonsense that they like printing. Pointing the finger at the women "hey look they want to be fat!". Pointing the finger at the author "hey look he said such a stupid thing!". Avoiding the finger that should be pointing at themselves "why do you print this rubbish?"
EDIT: and all of you who are earnestly discussing the article, you are committing the mistake of taking it as something that should be argued about. Is the author right and black women want to be fat? Is the author wrong and stupid? That is not the issue here, the issue is what does the NYTimes want you to think, and what do you think the people around you will think, and why you do not pause and think : why am I not questioning being fed this rubbish?
What rubbish? Did you even read the article? The author is essentially arguing that the African American community has become complacent about the issue of obesity, even accepting obesity as a cultural norm. Her point is that obesity shortens life expectancy and places hugh pressure on the healthcare system; and that the issue needs to begin to be taken seriously.
What about that is objectionable?
It is a personal issue and isn't realy a "public issue." Also obesity isn't always the cause of the health issues. The problem is most of the time obesity is paired with inactivity. its like how every one blames tobacco for all the health problems though in fact it likely comes from the poisons they put in the cigarettes to burn slower and be perserved longer.
Yep, you've totally convinced me. Tobacco is good for you.
On May 15 2012 00:50 Jinsho wrote: Yeah, it's the typical kind of nonsense that they like printing. Pointing the finger at the women "hey look they want to be fat!". Pointing the finger at the author "hey look he said such a stupid thing!". Avoiding the finger that should be pointing at themselves "why do you print this rubbish?"
EDIT: and all of you who are earnestly discussing the article, you are committing the mistake of taking it as something that should be argued about. Is the author right and black women want to be fat? Is the author wrong and stupid? That is not the issue here, the issue is what does the NYTimes want you to think, and what do you think the people around you will think, and why you do not pause and think : why am I not questioning being fed this rubbish?
What rubbish? Did you even read the article? The author is essentially arguing that the African American community has become complacent about the issue of obesity, even accepting obesity as a cultural norm. Her point is that obesity shortens life expectancy and places hugh pressure on the healthcare system; and that the issue needs to begin to be taken seriously.
What about that is objectionable?
It is a personal issue and isn't realy a "public issue." Also obesity isn't always the cause of the health issues. The problem is most of the time obesity is paired with inactivity. its like how every one blames tobacco for all the health problems though in fact it likely comes from the poisons they put in the cigarettes to burn slower and be perserved longer.
Considering that medicaid and medicare could potentially be on the hook for billions of dollars worth of healthcare related to obesity, I'd say there is certainly a public component to the issue. And there have been countless medical studies that have linked obesity to a greatly increased risk of heart disease, cancer, and diabeates. These things are considered medical fact. And yes, greater inactivity does increase these risks; but the risks are still present. If you want to deny data from peer reviewed medical studies conducted by highly educated people, I'm not sure there's much hope for you.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
Now I have been corrected. Still I doubt your dental would cover all the cosmetics they do here. Well at least you won't have renegade dentists who cap a kids entire mouth a week before they start to fall out. That was torture and all these years later I only have 1 left and I suspect its quality.. GB sounds a bit better now lolz.
Dude.. its not like you cant get it if you want. Its just not free. You can get ANYTHING youre able to get at the US dentist at the UK one, except a lot of the options are free in the UK. I cant understand how people like you are naive enough to belive that a public dentist would remove all your teeth. No wonder youll never get public health care over there. ^^
Hard not to believe it when your own countrymen say it. Also people are willing to do more work if they can get a higher premium (hence why all my teeth were capped as a kid despite not needing it) All in all I am biased against dentists. I know they all arn't like that but I don't trust them unless I see the issue too.
On May 15 2012 00:50 Jinsho wrote: Yeah, it's the typical kind of nonsense that they like printing. Pointing the finger at the women "hey look they want to be fat!". Pointing the finger at the author "hey look he said such a stupid thing!". Avoiding the finger that should be pointing at themselves "why do you print this rubbish?"
EDIT: and all of you who are earnestly discussing the article, you are committing the mistake of taking it as something that should be argued about. Is the author right and black women want to be fat? Is the author wrong and stupid? That is not the issue here, the issue is what does the NYTimes want you to think, and what do you think the people around you will think, and why you do not pause and think : why am I not questioning being fed this rubbish?
What rubbish? Did you even read the article? The author is essentially arguing that the African American community has become complacent about the issue of obesity, even accepting obesity as a cultural norm. Her point is that obesity shortens life expectancy and places hugh pressure on the healthcare system; and that the issue needs to begin to be taken seriously.
What about that is objectionable?
It is a personal issue and isn't realy a "public issue." Also obesity isn't always the cause of the health issues. The problem is most of the time obesity is paired with inactivity. its like how every one blames tobacco for all the health problems though in fact it likely comes from the poisons they put in the cigarettes to burn slower and be perserved longer.
Yep, you've totally convinced me. Tobacco is good for you.
On May 15 2012 00:50 Jinsho wrote: Yeah, it's the typical kind of nonsense that they like printing. Pointing the finger at the women "hey look they want to be fat!". Pointing the finger at the author "hey look he said such a stupid thing!". Avoiding the finger that should be pointing at themselves "why do you print this rubbish?"
EDIT: and all of you who are earnestly discussing the article, you are committing the mistake of taking it as something that should be argued about. Is the author right and black women want to be fat? Is the author wrong and stupid? That is not the issue here, the issue is what does the NYTimes want you to think, and what do you think the people around you will think, and why you do not pause and think : why am I not questioning being fed this rubbish?
What rubbish? Did you even read the article? The author is essentially arguing that the African American community has become complacent about the issue of obesity, even accepting obesity as a cultural norm. Her point is that obesity shortens life expectancy and places hugh pressure on the healthcare system; and that the issue needs to begin to be taken seriously.
What about that is objectionable?
It is a personal issue and isn't realy a "public issue." Also obesity isn't always the cause of the health issues. The problem is most of the time obesity is paired with inactivity. its like how every one blames tobacco for all the health problems though in fact it likely comes from the poisons they put in the cigarettes to burn slower and be perserved longer.
Considering that medicaid and medicare could potentially be on the hook for billions of dollars worth of healthcare related to obesity, I'd say there is certainly a public component to the issue. And there have been countless medical studies that have linked obesity to a greatly increased risk of heart disease, cancer, and diabeates. These things are considered medical fact. And yes, greater inactivity does increase these risks; but the risks are still present. If you want to deny data from peer reviewed medical studies conducted by highly educated people, I'm not sure there's much hope for you.
I'm not saying being fat isn't the cause of anything. that would be insane. But what i'm saying moderate obesity isn't this horrible killer thing. it does increase your chance for diabetes and puts greater stress on your bones. i'm just saying the major problem is most fat people are inactive and most obese people are obese due to fatness. Unless you isolate these issues you cannot find the truth. Also "highly educated people" have been known to ignore evidence contrary to their point. Look at how long we thought the world was flat even though if you walked out to sea you could see that this was false. Hint: Scientists who have stated that the hole in the ozone layer was due to the extreme temps causing it not to keep that type of gas there have been ignored. They often find a connection and cling.
We were born to question. When we take anothers word on blind faith we become just that, blind. Also I don't beieve in public welfare. Stunts economic growth and we need that right now. Its fine in GB but controlling people here is what we set out not to do as a country. Also I didn't say tobacco was good for you, I'm just saying they realy have no proof if they just use everyday cigs.
Guys, are you really bad at argument analysis? Really? "Being overweight is the result of eating more calories than you put out, not cultural factors!!!!" Yeah, of course, but the root cause of WHY they eat more than they put out is because of cultural reasons, which is what this article is arguing.
It is like me saying anoerixa isn't caused by depression and social issues, but instead caused by not enough big macs.
On May 15 2012 01:19 Colonel.782 wrote: Teamliquid, are you retarded? Really? "Being overweight is the result of eating more calories than you put out, not cultural factors!!!!" Yeah, of course, but the root cause of WHY they eat more than they put out is because of cultural reasons, which is what this article is arguing.
It is like me saying anoerixa isn't caused by depression and social issues, but instead caused by not enough big macs.
Lol, your right. Although culture realy des impact who will and not work out. Eating alot of Big Macs won't make you fat but it will take your gullblader. Thats a fact.
On May 14 2012 23:58 Incognoto wrote: Fucking ridiculous. I'm not the kind of person to be offended but I find the topic immensely distasteful, it would be much better off closed.
Then don't read it?
That's not what they said to Destiny and Orb. This is genuinely racist as well, it's absurd. I'm going to stop here however, and not derail the thread. I don't have that right.
Beg your pardons for posting here when I shouldn't have.
On May 14 2012 23:58 Incognoto wrote: Fucking ridiculous. I'm not the kind of person to be offended but I find the topic immensely distasteful, it would be much better off closed.
Then don't read it?
That's not what they said to Destiny and Orb. This is genuinely racist as well, it's absurd. I'm going to stop here however, and not derail the thread. I don't have that right.
Beg your pardons for posting here when I shouldn't have.
I kinda agree with you and I plan on staying a little longer just to see where it goes before I log out of it. I keep trying to put it away from biases though... i'll probably get flamed again for saying that though. I just think its more of a question of cultures changing attitudes on working out then actual genetics.
On May 15 2012 00:50 Jinsho wrote: Yeah, it's the typical kind of nonsense that they like printing. Pointing the finger at the women "hey look they want to be fat!". Pointing the finger at the author "hey look he said such a stupid thing!". Avoiding the finger that should be pointing at themselves "why do you print this rubbish?"
EDIT: and all of you who are earnestly discussing the article, you are committing the mistake of taking it as something that should be argued about. Is the author right and black women want to be fat? Is the author wrong and stupid? That is not the issue here, the issue is what does the NYTimes want you to think, and what do you think the people around you will think, and why you do not pause and think : why am I not questioning being fed this rubbish?
What rubbish? Did you even read the article? The author is essentially arguing that the African American community has become complacent about the issue of obesity, even accepting obesity as a cultural norm. Her point is that obesity shortens life expectancy and places hugh pressure on the healthcare system; and that the issue needs to begin to be taken seriously.
What about that is objectionable?
It is a personal issue and isn't realy a "public issue." Also obesity isn't always the cause of the health issues. The problem is most of the time obesity is paired with inactivity. its like how every one blames tobacco for all the health problems though in fact it likely comes from the poisons they put in the cigarettes to burn slower and be perserved longer.
Yep, you've totally convinced me. Tobacco is good for you.
I didn't realize that the perception people have of themselves could antagonize blacks and whites so much. I mean every argument in this article tends to oppose black and white women. I think this kind of reasoning is highly unhealthy, more so than overweightness (if that's a word).
Also, if the movies I've seen on the subjet aren't utter garbage, isn't the cause of obesity in america mainly related to food habits (fast food, sugar food, etc) ?
Coming from a black man that is part of a black family (super ghetto) and a white family (pretty chill), this is the dumbest shit I've ever read. The only black females that get fat are the ones who think their to good to work so they sit around and eat and sleep all day while their "man" does all the work.
The writer of that article should actually ask around to see what the issue is, not make a dumbass assumption because some black women have fat asses (nothing wrong with that of course ) and some dont. holy fuck.
On May 15 2012 00:50 Jinsho wrote: Yeah, it's the typical kind of nonsense that they like printing. Pointing the finger at the women "hey look they want to be fat!". Pointing the finger at the author "hey look he said such a stupid thing!". Avoiding the finger that should be pointing at themselves "why do you print this rubbish?"
EDIT: and all of you who are earnestly discussing the article, you are committing the mistake of taking it as something that should be argued about. Is the author right and black women want to be fat? Is the author wrong and stupid? That is not the issue here, the issue is what does the NYTimes want you to think, and what do you think the people around you will think, and why you do not pause and think : why am I not questioning being fed this rubbish?
What rubbish? Did you even read the article? The author is essentially arguing that the African American community has become complacent about the issue of obesity, even accepting obesity as a cultural norm. Her point is that obesity shortens life expectancy and places hugh pressure on the healthcare system; and that the issue needs to begin to be taken seriously.
What about that is objectionable?
It is a personal issue and isn't realy a "public issue." Also obesity isn't always the cause of the health issues. The problem is most of the time obesity is paired with inactivity. its like how every one blames tobacco for all the health problems though in fact it likely comes from the poisons they put in the cigarettes to burn slower and be perserved longer.
Yep, you've totally convinced me. Tobacco is good for you.
What a way to misunderstand the issue.
lol, Thanks. besides. I was just saying that they don't seem to have studied the actual tobacco itself and just the cigs. Also that the issues with fatness mostly come from inactivity witch often comes with people being fat. i was fat and active and I was a lot healthier then a year ago when I was just fat. That said getting sleep now made me a lot healthier. As for the diabetes I don't know if being fat caused that or if it is simply in my genetics. i wonder if the tested just fat people or high sugar intake people?
erm... what exactly is new in this article? i remember being taught at school in the 80s, that in africa a black woman stands for wealth, its perhaps the same in every region/time where hunger crises are common. and as the article said (and as many articles said before in the last 40 years), the blacks have yet to have their twiggy. old facts rewarmed. boring.
On May 15 2012 01:35 Elitios wrote: I didn't realize that the perception people have of themselves could antagonize blacks and whites so much. I mean every argument in this article tends to oppose black and white women. I think this kind of reasoning is highly unhealthy, more so than overweightness (if that's a word).
Also, if the movies I've seen on the subjet aren't utter garbage, isn't the cause of obesity in america mainly related to food habits (fast food, sugar food, etc) ?
I was actually trying to compare the 3 main races here, black, white, and hispanic. Also the obesity in america is due to inactivity. I used to not eat hardly anything when I first became over weight. Food is just 1 out of 3 or 4 major factors.
If anything article should be titled "Why American black women are fat". Because all the black women I have seen myself in europe where not fat at all, the black African women you see on TV are not fat either.
On May 15 2012 01:41 Redox wrote: If anything article should be titled "Why American black women are fat". Because all the black women I have seen myself in europe where not fat at all, the black African women you see on TV are not fat either.
True.
And in some ways that's a good point about the article. Such high obesity rates are not seen among people of African decent in Europe, so clearly culture is a big factor in the obesity 'epidemic'. And that's precisely the point the author is trying to make.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
Now I have been corrected. Still I doubt your dental would cover all the cosmetics they do here. Well at least you won't have renegade dentists who cap a kids entire mouth a week before they start to fall out. That was torture and all these years later I only have 1 left and I suspect its quality.. GB sounds a bit better now lolz.
Dude.. its not like you cant get it if you want. Its just not free. You can get ANYTHING youre able to get at the US dentist at the UK one, except a lot of the options are free in the UK. I cant understand how people like you are naive enough to belive that a public dentist would remove all your teeth. No wonder you'll never get public health care over there. ^^
It's just these stupid stereotypes that run rampant around the world. People, on average, don't go out to see the rest of the world to know better. All US citizens are fat, all French people don't shower, all English people have bad teeth. Except through my Ex, I've went to France and met French people. They definitely shower. She came here and saw the States and told me she was surprised about how overstated the fatness issue is. Is that to say that obesity in the US isn't an issue? No, far from it, but people like to make caricatures of cultures they don't know and remain ignorant about it. =\
On May 15 2012 01:41 Redox wrote: If anything article should be titled "Why American black women are fat". Because all the black women I have seen myself in europe where not fat at all, the black African women you see on TV are not fat either.
We are trying to avoid biases lolz. My brother in law is not fat and hes so skinny joined the army and they had to fatten him up.
I feel as though it all comes down to the same thing. Excuses. Fat whites make them, fat asians make them, fat blacks make them. In general, people who are fat tend to blame something other than "I don't value my health enough to diet and exercise", and this article is just another list of possible excuses for fat black women.
So they are several orders of magnitude more likely to be fat and make those excuses than whites... oh well. Culture of excuse making and messed up values.
When wading through such an extensive pile of shit as this, it's refreshing to come across a few intelligent posts. I figured I'd collect them all in one place:
On May 14 2012 23:56 imallinson wrote: The article is an opinion piece backed up by anecdotal evidence and thus is kind of worthless. If you look at actual studies the largest factor by far in rates of obesity is income (source). This is mainly due to the cheapest food per calorie being exeptionally unhealthy (source). Given that there is still a lot of income inequality in black communities in the US it is a reasonable conclusion that poverty not a cultural norm is responsible for high obesity rates.
+100 points for being the first reasonable post in this thread. It only took 4 pages!
On May 14 2012 23:53 unteqair wrote: It is true, but only because blacks tend to grow up in environments that don't foster the skills that iq tests measure. It's nothing genetic; there is more genetic variation within races than between. And it's not even a causal relationship, the whole iq obesity thing, I mean. You don't need to be adjusted to solving puzzles to figure out what happens when you eat a lot of junk.
+50 points for pointing out a very true and interesting fact (re: genetic variation within/between races). You lost points, however, for your erroneous analysis of IQ. There are mountains of evidence showing that IQ is, largely, heritable. Adopted siblings brought up in the same household will have disparate IQs, while identical twins separated at birth will still have similar IQs, etc. For more info, check out Steven Pinker's book The Blank Slate.
On May 15 2012 00:15 KazeHydra wrote: It means that the genetics differ more within the same race (say, Chinese) than if you compared 2 races. The idea is that overall, races' genetics will average out to be more or less the same whereas genetics within the same race can be quite diverse. Don't be deceived by how different people of races can look as this is a very poor indicator of genetic similarity.
+90 points for being 100% correct in your analysis and then coming to a responsible conclusion.
What causes the discrepancy is however disputed and there are a range of theories, check the link if you are interested.
As for the purpose of the thread I don´t really see what "new appraoch to obesity problem among blacks"she uses. Exercise and changing her families diet is hardly revolutionary? Starting exercise classes for others is of course a good thing. Specifically targeting black obese people instead of just obese people on the other hand come across as bit strange to me, I´m however not an american and this might bee the norm there?
As for the reasons for high obesity rates among blacks I would assume that SE factors play a large part. Sadly bad food are usually cheap food which not only means that poor are more likely to buy bad food but also that people descendant from poor people might carry with them a bad food culture even if their economic situation has improved. Most black people in the US for obvious reasons are descendants from lower classes. This however is pure speculation on my part.
+90 points for being intelligent enough to look up information rather than simply speculate, and to admit it when you do get around to speculating.
If I left your "intelligent" post out, it's probably because it was (a) completely off-topic, (b) intelligent but mostly a flame, or (c) unintelligent and full of speculation and personal anecdotes.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
That's between 12 year olds in 2009.
Actually 2006, it says it right on the graphic. And yes, its a limited sample, but its unlikely to be that poor an indicator of overall dental health - 12 year olds use the same infrastructure as everyone else, are spread across the same demographics etc.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
If this was true, africa, india, and the middle east would have an obesity problem. They don't.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
Now I have been corrected. Still I doubt your dental would cover all the cosmetics they do here. Well at least you won't have renegade dentists who cap a kids entire mouth a week before they start to fall out. That was torture and all these years later I only have 1 left and I suspect its quality.. GB sounds a bit better now lolz.
Dude.. its not like you cant get it if you want. Its just not free. You can get ANYTHING youre able to get at the US dentist at the UK one, except a lot of the options are free in the UK. I cant understand how people like you are naive enough to belive that a public dentist would remove all your teeth. No wonder you'll never get public health care over there. ^^
It's just these stupid stereotypes that run rampant around the world. People, on average, don't go out to see the rest of the world to know better. All US citizens are fat, all French people don't shower, all English people have bad teeth. Except through my Ex, I've went to France and met French people. They definitely shower. She came here and saw the States and told me she was surprised about how overstated the fatness issue is. Is that to say that obesity in the US isn't an issue? No, far from it, but people like to make caricatures of cultures they don't know and remain ignorant about it. =\
Thats why I brought it up. To learn. If you read back I retracted that. Also they say that the french don't shave thier armpits more then the showering. Do they? I don't care. The shower thing probably came from the dark ages when they thought they'd die of disease if they did. and also if the british had bad dentists that doesn't necesarily mean they all have bad teeth.
On May 15 2012 01:45 Crushgroove wrote: I feel as though it all comes down to the same thing. Excuses. Fat whites make them, fat asians make them, fat blacks make them. In general, people who are fat tend to blame something other than "I don't value my health enough to diet and exercise", and this article is just another list of possible excuses for fat black women.
So they are several orders of magnitude more likely to be fat and make those excuses than whites... oh well. Culture of excuse making and messed up values.
I mostly make up excuses as a joke and to shut up my family. i'm really not too bad. Just a bit of a gut and I've lost a lot of it.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
That is incorrect, a fit person should have low/lower body fat, therefore he should not be 'over the indexes', unless he is some hardcore bodybuilder, in that case a more accurate way would be to measure body fat percentage, I'm pretty sure the person measuring your BMI wouldn't be autistic enough to proclaim you are fat despite a healthy bf percentage.
Where does that comes from? Never heard that one before ^^
Also I don't see the point you are trying to make legendstormcrow. What difference does it make if you add hispanic? I don't see how it makes this reasoning less dangerous.
A lot of people are keen to reduce this issue to a single variable - poverty. But its not that simple. Obesity rates in most US states are around 30% (yes even on the East Coast) and poverty rates are more like 15%. Absolutely poverty has a huge role to play but obesity has exploded over the last 15 years, poverty rates have not. obesity in UShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States Unfortunately social problems are rarely simple and culture almost always has a role to play.
Randall cites literature and songs that adore voluptuousness. A 1987 poem “Homage to My Hips” begins with the boast, “These hips are big hips.” She establishes big black hips as something a woman would want to have and a man would desire.
from what i've learned from black guys i know, most of them actually don't find the "big black woman" look attractive. their idea of an attractive girl is usually some thin white girl with a big rack and a toned ass.
it's backed up by the fact that black women in america have the highest rate of being single.
so no, big black hips are not what men desire.
There is also politics in it, other than the aesthetic reason. The fat black woman’s body “functions as a site of resistance to both gendered and racialized oppression.” By contextualizing fatness within the African diaspora, she invites us to notice that the fat black woman can be a rounded opposite of the fit black slave, that the fatness of black women has often functioned as both explicit political statement and active political resistance.
i feel like the whole "resistance" thing has been applied to every black attribute ever debated. not to say there still aren't equality problems, but i doubt 80% of black women are consciously getting fat to fight the oppressive white society. white women have been doing the same thing by trying to spin their rampant obesity as the "new beautiful". doesn't work.
From this fresh perspective, Randall claims that it is easy to aproach the obesity problem. She acknowledges that the money spent on anti-diabetes and anti-obesity program is better spent on education and technology. That is why in her small way, she is helping other women in the community to "keep it below 200 pounds", in various exercise, diet, and yoga programs. She is hopeful that while she may never be as fit as she wants, at least it will be hard for her daughter and future generation to get fat.
and yet the obama health care rallies were filled with droves of big black women complaining they couldn't afford to pay for doctor visits and supplies for their health. SHE may believe that the money is better spent elsewhere, but the majority of middle age black women would prefer to continue receiving money for lower medical costs, not science textbooks. same goes with white women.
if everyone actually believed the money was better spent on education and technology we wouldn't have a government that's drowning in health care costs.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
That's between 12 year olds in 2009.
Actually 2006, it says it right on the graphic. And yes, its a limited sample, but its unlikely to be that poor an indicator of overall dental health - 12 year olds use the same infrastructure as everyone else, are spread across the same demographics etc.
A check on children does not prove the value of their dentists, just their teeth. All in all it proves what I already knew, the british don't have hillbilly teeth as a norm. And now to do something hateful, that is just the nobility. Hillbillies in a castle. Sorry, i had to troll as I've been flamed. Though this may be why americans think the brits have bad teeth.
On May 14 2012 23:10 Saline wrote: This article is completely littered with standard human cognitive biases. Almost all of her evidence is anecdotal--"I wanted to be fat, so it's probably something most people feel" or "I remember hearing women say they wanted to be fat, so most of them must feel that way." Confirmation bias: humans remember that which conforms to their presuppositions, and ignore that which does not.
What I think is more likely is that black women, being a racially oppressed minority, garner more social support from each other than do white women. As a result, their bodies are generally praised, regardless of what they look like. Being proud of your body is something that is almost necessary when the entire issue of racial discrimination is centered around what you look like (i.e. your skin color). In other words, black communities are less self-critical of their members' looks, because being critical of how they look is exactly the issue that they're fighting AGAINST.
The result is that fat black people are not selectively targeted for humiliation, as are commonly white people, and less pressure is on them to change the way they look. The unfortunate result is an increased prevalence of weight-related problems, such as diabetes and cardiovascular problems. Compound this with the fact that blacks generally fall into lower income brackets, and those in lower income brackets eat less healthy in general, and we have a weight issue that is a combination of culture and socioeconomic status.
The issue is not as simple as the article leads us to believe, and I actually dislike the message. Black people don't want to be fat. They know it's not healthy, and saying that they want to be fat seems almost racist to me.
Reposting this because it was incredibly smart and everyone should see it.
The fat black woman’s body “functions as a site of resistance to both gendered and racialized oppression.” By contextualizing fatness within the African diaspora, she invites us to notice that the fat black woman can be a rounded opposite of the fit black slave, that the fatness of black women has often functioned as both explicit political statement and active political resistance.
I actually laughed out loud at the absurdity of this. People put a little too much thought and theory into pretty simple and obvious phenomenon.
That was the funniest part of the article. It really just sounds like she's trying to justify obesity with absurdities of it somehow being a political statement about slavery and other inane reasons instead of taking personal responsibility for her diet, even though at the end of the article she does argue against obesity.
Where does that comes from? Never heard that one before ^^
Also I don't see the point you are trying to make legendstormcrow. What difference does it make if you add hispanic? I don't see how it makes this reasoning less dangerous.
I'm saying I'm taking a cross setion of the people here. Sadly, criminals are more likely to be in shape is what I've found. Esp. if from "the hood."
Also i nticed you cropped my earlier post to some random racist statement unless my comp glitched and it all didn't show up.
Just to make it more noticable I did not say that french don't shower. i was just saying the clitche was they have women that don't shave their armpits and i honestly don't care. I think he was trying to crop that so i get flamed. if so, what a troll.
Black women are fat for the same reason everyone else is fat. They have a poor diet both from a nutritional and volume standpoint, and get too little excercise. Bringing race into this issue or any other is simply ridiculous. It's science.
On May 15 2012 02:00 sirachman wrote: Black women are fat for the same reason everyone else is fat. They have a poor diet both from a nutritional and volume standpoint, and get too little excercise. Bringing race into this issue or any other is simply ridiculous.
Genetics may have something to do with it but not enough to make them different from anyone else. Some people just have slower metabalisms and have to work to counteract that. other then that eloquentally said. (Please tell me I spelled that right as it is the most fitting word and I am now rambling but all in all i am sorry if i misspelled as it is a word I ussually don't have to type.)
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
bad study sample first of all,
and secondly, the association isn't between perfect white teeth and beauty, it's between perfect white teeth and health. if you come to america and you have ugly teeth, it's assumed they're rotting out of your face.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
That's between 12 year olds in 2009.
Actually 2006, it says it right on the graphic. And yes, its a limited sample, but its unlikely to be that poor an indicator of overall dental health - 12 year olds use the same infrastructure as everyone else, are spread across the same demographics etc.
A check on children does not prove the value of their dentists, just their teeth. All in all it proves what I already knew, the british don't have hillbilly teeth as a norm. And now to do something hateful, that is just the nobility. Hillbillies in a castle. Sorry, i had to troll as I've been flamed. Though this may be why americans think the brits have bad teeth.
Hmm well I wasn't flaming. I was merely disagreeing with (Tippencanoe's) implication that the data was insufficient for the conclusion - as it happens, 12y/o is one of the WHO's indicator ages for dental damage.
(Also if you're genuinely implying that the state of people's teeth is no indicator whatsoever of their dental hygiene (not just dentists) then I'm a bit confused).
On May 15 2012 00:15 KazeHydra wrote: It means that the genetics differ more within the same race (say, Chinese) than if you compared 2 races. The idea is that overall, races' genetics will average out to be more or less the same whereas genetics within the same race can be quite diverse. Don't be deceived by how different people of races can look as this is a very poor indicator of genetic similarity.
Comparing it in that way is not accurate. Within the race, you will of course have individual variance, but thats true for individuals from different races or the human population as a whole.
The analysis of racial genetic predisposition is, like you say, an average of the genetic makeup of the members that make up that group. You absolutely have genetic traits that are far more common in one race as opposed to another.
Im sure you already know this but i just wanted to point it out cus it can be a bit misleading.
Now back on topic.... Like it was pointed out socioeconomic role probably has the biggest correlation to what were observing here, but a cultural aspect is present nonetheless. Look at the sexy women in mainstream 'white' america, and the sexy chicks in a rap video. The black girls usually have some meat on them. Of course, its no where near obese, but you get the idea.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
bad study sample first of all,
and secondly, the association isn't between perfect white teeth and beauty, it's between perfect white teeth and health. if you come to america and you have ugly teeth, it's assumed they're rotting out of your face.
No he'd be right. Crooked teeth are frowned upon. Then again they are more likely to break (only reason I conceded to my wife on her braces years back.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
That's between 12 year olds in 2009.
Actually 2006, it says it right on the graphic. And yes, its a limited sample, but its unlikely to be that poor an indicator of overall dental health - 12 year olds use the same infrastructure as everyone else, are spread across the same demographics etc.
A check on children does not prove the value of their dentists, just their teeth. All in all it proves what I already knew, the british don't have hillbilly teeth as a norm. And now to do something hateful, that is just the nobility. Hillbillies in a castle. Sorry, i had to troll as I've been flamed. Though this may be why americans think the brits have bad teeth.
Hmm well I wasn't flaming. I was merely disagreeing with (Tippencanoe's) implication that the data was insufficient for the conclusion - as it happens, 12y/o is one of the WHO's indicator ages for dental damage.
(Also if you're genuinely implying that the state of people's teeth is no indicator whatsoever of their dental hygiene (not just dentists) then I'm a bit confused).
Some people have better teeth as a rule and I'm implying it may be genetic and diet as well as brushing. I'm just saying its the toothed, not the doc. Just plain good genes and parenting.
On May 14 2012 23:11 AgentChaos wrote: arent everyone in america fat?
but you are from United Kingdom so I guess you all have something in common, hurray for u
We are fat becuase we have good dentists, Lol. Some British guy the other day said over the radio basically that your free dental is the same "free dental" inmates get. REMOVE DEM ALL!
1 more thing. Even fit people are considered fat becuase muscle puts them over the indexes for being obese. Me? I call mine natural body armor and it serves me better then the lowgrade kevlar I put up with.
I didn't understand a single word of this
British dental sucks causing bad teeth becuase they just remove teeth like in prison. Also fat is more effective then thrust vests with low grade kevlar becuase fat covers more and you can't just jab below fat.
Britain has the best teeth in the world (health-wise) according to this study. We just don't have the same association between perfect white teeth and beauty that makes teeth a bigger deal in the US.
bad study sample first of all,
and secondly, the association isn't between perfect white teeth and beauty, it's between perfect white teeth and health. if you come to america and you have ugly teeth, it's assumed they're rotting out of your face.
Rubbish. Teeth are naturally a range of colours (light yellow to grayish white), perfectly white not being within that range. Yes, if you have awful teeth there will be a lot of discoloration and crookedness. But you can't just reverse that and go "oh anything but perfectly white straight teeth isn't healthy".
Edit: Also, that study sample is WHO data so its about as good as you'll get.
Well as a guy said on page one in such an eloquent way, America has serious problems with obesity levels, in the UK we are having issues as well in many areas (basically anywhere outside of south east England) but not quite to the same level as US.
I do not think that its to do with IQ, ignorance, genetics but maybe more to do with certain segments of society losing discipline and respect for themselves mixed of course with addictions to fast/junk foods. That seems to be the trend here in UK anyway.
There is such a thing as a "fat gene"...genetics dictate body orientation. That said, you are also what you eat! But this assumption "they want to be fat" is dangerous...just like any other generalization about any race/religion. A few cannot speak for millions withouttheir consent.
European, african and asian body types are completely different in form and function. Black people need to stop worrying about European standards of beauty. African american males typically have higher natural muscle density, and the women are naturally shapelier and have bigger thighs, hips and butts than other races. Which was looked down upon until white women started to sport it lol. And as for the higher or lower mean IQ, that is because the education system does not fit african americans as Blacks typically learn better Mnemonically, because blacks are right brain dominant. Thats why blacks are good with music and sound naturally, while whites and asians are better with straight logic. Just like how women and men are different in SLIGHT ways. We are the same, but then again we are not in certain ways. Do not interpret what I have said negatively, and that doesn't mean that Americans in general don't eat very poorly, and with how black people's body's are we are more suceptible to what is considered overwieght. But societal perception has a lot to do with it.
What I think is more likely is that black women, being a racially oppressed minority, garner more social support from each other than do white women. As a result, their bodies are generally praised, regardless of what they look like. Being proud of your body is something that is almost necessary when the entire issue of racial discrimination is centered around what you look like (i.e. your skin color). In other words, black communities are less self-critical of their members' looks, because being critical of how they look is exactly the issue that they're fighting AGAINST.
doesn't make it off-limits to criticism any more than other nationalities.
the issue a lot of americans have is when we sit down to watch the news at night and there's some rally somewhere protesting cuts to welfare or health benefits, and many of the people there are ridiculously obese. there's a common sense of indignation that the rest of us should be expected to cover the costs of those people's poor eating habits. in other words, i'm not going to work extra hours just so i can pay for 6 fat women's insulin.
I think it's just culture. It probably goes all the way back to when their ancestors lived in Africa. Since food was so scarce, being fat was seen as attractive, and the naturally skinny ppl died from starvation. Then in america they were still poor, so not much changed. It seems like atleast in america it's more acceptable by society to be overweight if you're black, and there might be some genetical disposition too.
On May 14 2012 23:10 Saline wrote: This article is completely littered with standard human cognitive biases. Almost all of her evidence is anecdotal--"I wanted to be fat, so it's probably something most people feel" or "I remember hearing women say they wanted to be fat, so most of them must feel that way." Confirmation bias: humans remember that which conforms to their presuppositions, and ignore that which does not.
What I think is more likely is that black women, being a racially oppressed minority, garner more social support from each other than do white women. As a result, their bodies are generally praised, regardless of what they look like. Being proud of your body is something that is almost necessary when the entire issue of racial discrimination is centered around what you look like (i.e. your skin color). In other words, black communities are less self-critical of their members' looks, because being critical of how they look is exactly the issue that they're fighting AGAINST.
The result is that fat black people are not selectively targeted for humiliation, as are commonly white people, and less pressure is on them to change the way they look. The unfortunate result is an increased prevalence of weight-related problems, such as diabetes and cardiovascular problems. Compound this with the fact that blacks generally fall into lower income brackets, and those in lower income brackets eat less healthy in general, and we have a weight issue that is a combination of culture and socioeconomic status.
The issue is not as simple as the article leads us to believe, and I actually dislike the message. Black people don't want to be fat. They know it's not healthy, and saying that they want to be fat seems almost racist to me.
I cannot possibly agree more. This sums up every opinion I have on the issue.
On May 14 2012 23:54 FuzzyJAM wrote: There's no doubt that many cultures regard being overweight as positive - after all, for a long time it was a sign of affluence, and still is in much of the world.
As to this specifically. . .eh, don't really see it, but whatever, it's not beyond possibility as a reason. I suspect the fact that American black people are of a lower social class on average than other ethnic groups has a larger amount to do with it.
Yeah, at least in the UK, socio-economic factors have a strong correlation with levels of obesity, i.e the poorest in our particular society tend to be the most likely to be overweight. That black people in the States tend to be more likely to belong to a lower socio-economic class, which may be the more important factor.
On May 15 2012 01:51 tavelscrabble wrote: A lot of people are keen to reduce this issue to a single variable - poverty. But its not that simple. Obesity rates in most US states are around 30% (yes even on the East Coast) and poverty rates are more like 15%. Absolutely poverty has a huge role to play but obesity has exploded over the last 15 years, poverty rates have not. obesity in UShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_StatesUnfortunately social problems are rarely simple and culture almost always has a role to play.
Nope, this is TL.net, where upper middle class white kids can easily explain the world's problems with a simple one liner and a link to a poverty study.
On May 15 2012 01:51 tavelscrabble wrote: A lot of people are keen to reduce this issue to a single variable - poverty. But its not that simple. Obesity rates in most US states are around 30% (yes even on the East Coast) and poverty rates are more like 15%. Absolutely poverty has a huge role to play but obesity has exploded over the last 15 years, poverty rates have not. obesity in UShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_StatesUnfortunately social problems are rarely simple and culture almost always has a role to play.
Nope, this is TL.net, where upper middle class white kids can easily explain the world's problems with a simple one liner and a link to a poverty study.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
Are you FUCKING SERIOUS?!?! LOL, what a troll post.
"Hey guys, I'm on an international forum, so I'm going to imply that Black people, as a whole, are dumber than other groups in a statistically significant way! Maybe that's why they're fat!"
Hahahaha
Well to be fair he never called them dumb. He said there is a correlation with IQ and obesity, I have no clue if that's true or not but it sounds plausible at least. And they do score a lower mean IQ. We could debate whether IQ has anything at all to do with intelligence, but it's really irrelevant because his point is that the score correlates with obesity, he never even mentioned intelligence.
I do not know about IQ, but I know that there is a correlation between academics and obesity.
Anyways, should the women want to be fat out of their own, then so be it. In that case they shouldn't complain if insurances give them higher policies due to the higher cost they (as a group) generate. However if they feel that they are forced to be fat, then they obviously should lean up against it. We are way past a time where people can force other people to be something they don't want to be.
That I can dispute. Academic types are often fat becuase they poor so much into their work. Your second statement I can concur with.
Okay, I admit that I'm quite clueless about the situation in the U.S.. However in the EU, this correlation holds. (here's a German reference: http://www.aerzteblatt.de/nachrichten/48161)
On May 15 2012 03:31 Flamingo777 wrote: I find it challenging to follow the logic that is: I must be fat to be non slave-like.
Hey, just remember the woman who wrote this article makes a living doing this. If she was one of us, she might not even say the things she did. My opinion: whatever you wanna say, as long as you dont conclude obesity is ok.
On May 15 2012 01:51 tavelscrabble wrote: A lot of people are keen to reduce this issue to a single variable - poverty. But its not that simple. Obesity rates in most US states are around 30% (yes even on the East Coast) and poverty rates are more like 15%. Absolutely poverty has a huge role to play but obesity has exploded over the last 15 years, poverty rates have not. obesity in UShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_StatesUnfortunately social problems are rarely simple and culture almost always has a role to play.
Nope, this is TL.net, where upper middle class white kids can easily explain the world's problems with a simple one liner and a link to a poverty study.
That's not a bad one-liner of your own, did you have a substantive point though?
I am racist towards the human race, and I think that human kind is unevolved and uncivilized. They are stupid machines. For me humans are not even selfaware ... some few individuals, one in millions is maybe beginning to become self aware and to see behind its programming and see the world as it is. Humans are primitive and vile, all of them. They should be treated with utmost caution. They have no sense of morals and ethics, how could they....
On May 15 2012 01:51 tavelscrabble wrote: A lot of people are keen to reduce this issue to a single variable - poverty. But its not that simple. Obesity rates in most US states are around 30% (yes even on the East Coast) and poverty rates are more like 15%. Absolutely poverty has a huge role to play but obesity has exploded over the last 15 years, poverty rates have not. obesity in UShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_StatesUnfortunately social problems are rarely simple and culture almost always has a role to play.
Nope, this is TL.net, where upper middle class white kids can easily explain the world's problems with a simple one liner and a link to a poverty study.
lol to this post lolololol
A lot of this seems like speculation... Of course almost all social studies are speculations
On May 15 2012 04:42 Holy_AT wrote: I am racist towards the human race, and I think that human kind is unevolved and uncivilized. They are stupid machines. For me humans are not even selfaware ... some few individuals, one in millions is maybe beginning to become self aware and to see behind its programming and see the world as it is. Humans are primitive and vile, all of them. They should be treated with utmost caution. They have no sense of morals and ethics, how could they....
lol, funny how on the net you come across characters who have been ostracised from their society for years, only for them to have a second coming typing complete dribble through on-line communities. I suppose no one would get to hear or bother to listen to these individuals in person.
On May 15 2012 02:18 Schematic wrote: European, african and asian body types are completely different in form and function. Black people need to stop worrying about European standards of beauty. African american males typically have higher natural muscle density, and the women are naturally shapelier and have bigger thighs, hips and butts than other races. Which was looked down upon until white women started to sport it lol. And as for the higher or lower mean IQ, that is because the education system does not fit african americans as Blacks typically learn better Mnemonically, because blacks are right brain dominant. Thats why blacks are good with music and sound naturally, while whites and asians are better with straight logic. Just like how women and men are different in SLIGHT ways. We are the same, but then again we are not in certain ways. Do not interpret what I have said negatively, and that doesn't mean that Americans in general don't eat very poorly, and with how black people's body's are we are more suceptible to what is considered overwieght. But societal perception has a lot to do with it.
That's ridiculous. Aside from the fact that things like right brain dominance and classifiable learning styles are considered practically non-existent by serious scientists, you're giving far, far too much credence to the very idea of different races. Races are not homogenous genetic groups, and attempts to establish consistent physical differences between races tend to come up with nothing. Even something as simple as "African american males typically have higher natural muscle density" is completely baseless. "African american" is an incredibly broad group, with many very different sub-populations within it.
Our conceptions of physical differences between races have, throughout history, matched up with our social and cultural expectations of them. A hundred years ago, Asians were considered less intellectually-minded than whites, but these days (among the few people who make serious considerations based on race) the opposite is true. Never has it been based on real, consistent, empirically-observed differences. Our concept of race is primarily historical and social, not physical.
On May 14 2012 23:08 arbitrageur wrote: What non-sense.
Black people have a lower mean iq and are less educated on average. Education and IQ have a demonstrated positive correlation with obesity. This is the only evidenced link between being a black woman and being obese. I could formulate it statistically but I really can't be bothered.
You have a point their my fellow Aussie. What then do you say about Australia's own Obesity problem? (I myself will watch and wait to see if all these programs the government has put in - sunsafe, healthy eating, anti-smoking, anti-childhood-obesity campagains, will be efficacious in the years to come)
On May 15 2012 01:46 Courthead wrote: When wading through such an extensive pile of shit as this, it's refreshing to come across a few intelligent posts. I figured I'd collect them all in one place:
On May 14 2012 23:56 imallinson wrote: The article is an opinion piece backed up by anecdotal evidence and thus is kind of worthless. If you look at actual studies the largest factor by far in rates of obesity is income (source). This is mainly due to the cheapest food per calorie being exeptionally unhealthy (source). Given that there is still a lot of income inequality in black communities in the US it is a reasonable conclusion that poverty not a cultural norm is responsible for high obesity rates.
+100 points for being the first reasonable post in this thread. It only took 4 pages!
On May 14 2012 23:53 unteqair wrote: It is true, but only because blacks tend to grow up in environments that don't foster the skills that iq tests measure. It's nothing genetic; there is more genetic variation within races than between. And it's not even a causal relationship, the whole iq obesity thing, I mean. You don't need to be adjusted to solving puzzles to figure out what happens when you eat a lot of junk.
+50 points for pointing out a very true and interesting fact (re: genetic variation within/between races). You lost points, however, for your erroneous analysis of IQ. There are mountains of evidence showing that IQ is, largely, heritable. Adopted siblings brought up in the same household will have disparate IQs, while identical twins separated at birth will still have similar IQs, etc. For more info, check out Steven Pinker's book The Blank Slate.
On May 15 2012 00:15 KazeHydra wrote: It means that the genetics differ more within the same race (say, Chinese) than if you compared 2 races. The idea is that overall, races' genetics will average out to be more or less the same whereas genetics within the same race can be quite diverse. Don't be deceived by how different people of races can look as this is a very poor indicator of genetic similarity.
+90 points for being 100% correct in your analysis and then coming to a responsible conclusion.
What causes the discrepancy is however disputed and there are a range of theories, check the link if you are interested.
As for the purpose of the thread I don´t really see what "new appraoch to obesity problem among blacks"she uses. Exercise and changing her families diet is hardly revolutionary? Starting exercise classes for others is of course a good thing. Specifically targeting black obese people instead of just obese people on the other hand come across as bit strange to me, I´m however not an american and this might bee the norm there?
As for the reasons for high obesity rates among blacks I would assume that SE factors play a large part. Sadly bad food are usually cheap food which not only means that poor are more likely to buy bad food but also that people descendant from poor people might carry with them a bad food culture even if their economic situation has improved. Most black people in the US for obvious reasons are descendants from lower classes. This however is pure speculation on my part.
+90 points for being intelligent enough to look up information rather than simply speculate, and to admit it when you do get around to speculating.
If I left your "intelligent" post out, it's probably because it was (a) completely off-topic, (b) intelligent but mostly a flame, or (c) unintelligent and full of speculation and personal anecdotes.
As much as I personally enjoyed the BBcode use here, legit thats well done for someone under 100 posts, I really don't agree with your statement. Other than arguing sematics, their is a heavy bias in the african american community about slavery and even though it was 200 years ago, it is still a relevant issue. Its not every black person, but when February comes around in America, you can bet you will see a lot of african american communities doing something relative to slavery and oppression. Bad foods, cheap foods, etc. all of that is part of America, but poor people are also obese, in fact some people who are on food stamps are that way when you would think they wouldn't be. The issue isn't just a health one, its also a social one. There are many obese white women, but its not AS extensive of an issue neccessarily. It could be because I personally live in the American South, in a fairly... Ok VERY ghetto city, i believe we are about #5-4 worst city in America and somewhere up their in the world as a crime ridden place, and the culture about obesity here is actually somewhat similar where it is a cultural thing as much as a health thing.
On May 15 2012 04:42 Holy_AT wrote: I am racist towards the human race, and I think that human kind is unevolved and uncivilized. They are stupid machines. For me humans are not even selfaware ... some few individuals, one in millions is maybe beginning to become self aware and to see behind its programming and see the world as it is. Humans are primitive and vile, all of them. They should be treated with utmost caution. They have no sense of morals and ethics, how could they....
What in the world does this have to do with anything?
On May 15 2012 04:42 Holy_AT wrote: I am racist towards the human race, and I think that human kind is unevolved and uncivilized. They are stupid machines. For me humans are not even selfaware ... some few individuals, one in millions is maybe beginning to become self aware and to see behind its programming and see the world as it is. Humans are primitive and vile, all of them. They should be treated with utmost caution. They have no sense of morals and ethics, how could they....
What in the world does this have to do with anything?
On May 15 2012 01:51 tavelscrabble wrote: A lot of people are keen to reduce this issue to a single variable - poverty. But its not that simple. Obesity rates in most US states are around 30% (yes even on the East Coast) and poverty rates are more like 15%. Absolutely poverty has a huge role to play but obesity has exploded over the last 15 years, poverty rates have not. obesity in UShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_StatesUnfortunately social problems are rarely simple and culture almost always has a role to play.
Nope, this is TL.net, where upper middle class white kids can easily explain the world's problems with a simple one liner and a link to a poverty study.
That's not a bad one-liner of your own, did you have a substantive point though?
I was agreeing with you! It might not have looked like it because you did actually link to some studies related to the topic, but I greatly admire that even though you have a point that demonstrably proves that there is more to this issue than merely poverty, thus essentially disproving the entire first 8 pages of the thread, you were still humble enough to admit that these problems are very complicated and difficult to explain. I was making fun of the other posters who are just like "guys guys guys, I have it all figured it out", and then post the one thing they have ever read on the issue.
As for my own point, I would like to point out that it might juuuust be possible that an an obese black woman in America has more of an insight into the lives of obese black women in America than the majority of people on TL.
On May 15 2012 01:51 tavelscrabble wrote: A lot of people are keen to reduce this issue to a single variable - poverty. But its not that simple. Obesity rates in most US states are around 30% (yes even on the East Coast) and poverty rates are more like 15%. Absolutely poverty has a huge role to play but obesity has exploded over the last 15 years, poverty rates have not. obesity in UShttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_StatesUnfortunately social problems are rarely simple and culture almost always has a role to play.
Nope, this is TL.net, where upper middle class white kids can easily explain the world's problems with a simple one liner and a link to a poverty study.
That's not a bad one-liner of your own, did you have a substantive point though?
I was agreeing with you! It might not have looked like it because you did actually link to some studies related to the topic, but I greatly admire that even though you have a point that demonstrably proves that there is more to this issue than merely poverty, thus essentially disproving the entire first 8 pages of the thread, you were still humble enough to admit that these problems are very complicated and difficult to explain. I was making fun of the other posters who are just like "guys guys guys, I have it all figured it out", and then post the one thing they have ever read on the issue.
As for my own point, I would like to point out that it might juuuust be possible that an an obese black woman in America has more of an insight into the lives of obese black women in America than the majority of people on TL.
Sorry, shouldn't have jumped to the wrong conclusion, or down your throat. Wholeheartedly agree with your point as well.
Poor, less educated, less intelligent people (these things tend to go together) on average are heavier in the US, I think this is true of most western states. I don't see a justification for making African Americans a unique group when these factors might explain the difference entirely.
Saying they are fat because that want to be is kind of libertarian and true in an obvious way, they just value overeating more than they value being a healthy weight. Making up shit like "fighting oppression" or following some strange ideology by stuffing their faces with unhealthy food is just silly.
It's just a fat woman trying to justify her own laziness... Being fat is ok, defending it is not and that is just the case, no one sits at home and wishes they were fat... It's not a "culture thing" it's to many black woman (and americans in general) eating poisonous fast food products and plowing their colestoral into the gutter awaiting a quick death from heart attack.
So basically, being fat isn't " a choice " people want, it's poor choice people made and with foods addictive properties keeps them in an endless loop.
African American / Southern cuisine consists of high calorie fattening stuff like mac n cheese, fried chicken, buttermilk biscuit etc. Blacks back then had a lot more workload back in the segregation days so they weren't really fat despite of such diets, but now that they can work less and live on welfare it's no surprise to see them getting fat.
Same happens to many veterans, they were required to have high calorie diets in training / battlefields but once they're discharged they become fat since they're continuing such diets / eating habits whilst no longer having a high workload.
On May 15 2012 05:48 ppshchik wrote: African American / Southern cuisine consists of high calorie fattening stuff like mac n cheese, fried chicken, buttermilk biscuit etc. Blacks back then had a lot more workload back in the segregation days so they weren't really fat despite of such diets, but now that they can work less and live on welfare it's no surprise to see them getting fat.
Same happens to many veterans, they were required to have high calorie diets in training / battlefields but once they're discharged they become fat since they're continuing such diets / eating habits whilst no longer having a high workload.
Holy shit that was subtle racism.... "Blacks back then had a lot more workload, but now they can sit on welfare, no surprise they are fat"
On May 15 2012 05:48 ppshchik wrote: African American / Southern cuisine consists of high calorie fattening stuff like mac n cheese, fried chicken, buttermilk biscuit etc. Blacks back then had a lot more workload back in the segregation days so they weren't really fat despite of such diets, but now that they can work less and live on welfare it's no surprise to see them getting fat.
Same happens to many veterans, they were required to have high calorie diets in training / battlefields but once they're discharged they become fat since they're continuing such diets / eating habits whilst no longer having a high workload.
Holy shit that was subtle racism.... "Blacks back then had a lot more workload, but now they can sit on welfare, no surprise they are fat"
Jesus Christ man, live in 2012 not 1950's
For blacks I'm talking about African Americans who lived in the south for generations, not Carribean immigrants who share a different culture
On May 15 2012 05:46 NeMeSiS3 wrote: It's just a fat woman trying to justify her own laziness... Being fat is ok, defending it is not and that is just the case, no one sits at home and wishes they were fat... It's not a "culture thing" it's to many black woman (and americans in general) eating poisonous fast food products and plowing their colestoral into the gutter awaiting a quick death from heart attack.
So basically, being fat isn't " a choice " people want, it's poor choice people made and with foods addictive properties keeps them in an endless loop.
Yep, when she said things like:
"The cost of too many people getting too fat is too high."
"The billions that we are spending to treat diabetes is money that we don’t have for education reform or retirement benefits, and what’s worse, it’s estimated that the total cost of America’s obesity epidemic could reach almost $1 trillion by 2030 if we keep on doing what we have been doing."
"WE have to change. Black women especially."
"My goal is to be the last fat black woman in my family."
she was definitely just trying to justify her own laziness. If she was defending being fat, she is the worst debater in history.
She was simply offering an explanation of the types of things that might cause people to eat more that is specific to black women. She never said being fat was ok or good, in fact quite the opposite. She never said this one cultural factor explained everything about obesity. She never said other factors that affect weight loss aren't shared by black women and other obese Americans alike. For Christ's sake people, read the OP, and stop putting words in her mouth.
On May 15 2012 05:48 ppshchik wrote: African American / Southern cuisine consists of high calorie fattening stuff like mac n cheese, fried chicken, buttermilk biscuit etc. Blacks back then had a lot more workload back in the segregation days so they weren't really fat despite of such diets, but now that they can work less and live on welfare it's no surprise to see them getting fat.
Same happens to many veterans, they were required to have high calorie diets in training / battlefields but once they're discharged they become fat since they're continuing such diets / eating habits whilst no longer having a high workload.
Holy shit that was subtle racism.... "Blacks back then had a lot more workload, but now they can sit on welfare, no surprise they are fat"
Jesus Christ man, live in 2012 not 1950's
The amount of just sheer ignorance in this thread is rather astounding. It's not just the comments like that one, but all of the completely made up shit that people are repeating. Not to mention all of the people who clearly didn't read the OP who are in here arguing that obesity is caused by unhealthy eating and lack of exercise. (the author never disputed this, in fact she's advocating for heathly eating and exercise!) Goes to show how many people don't read past the first 2 sentences of a thread.
I would've hoped TL was more mature than this, apparently it is not.
On May 15 2012 05:48 ppshchik wrote: African American / Southern cuisine consists of high calorie fattening stuff like mac n cheese, fried chicken, buttermilk biscuit etc. Blacks back then had a lot more workload back in the segregation days so they weren't really fat despite of such diets, but now that they can work less and live on welfare it's no surprise to see them getting fat.
Same happens to many veterans, they were required to have high calorie diets in training / battlefields but once they're discharged they become fat since they're continuing such diets / eating habits whilst no longer having a high workload.
Holy shit that was subtle racism.... "Blacks back then had a lot more workload, but now they can sit on welfare, no surprise they are fat"
Jesus Christ man, live in 2012 not 1950's
The amount of just sheer ignorance in this thread is rather astounding. It's not just the comments like that one, but all of the completely made up shit that people are repeating. Not to mention all of the people who clearly didn't read the OP who are in here arguing that obesity is caused by unhealthy eating and lack of exercise. (the author never disputed this, in fact she's advocating for heathly eating and exercise!) Goes to show how many people don't read past the first 2 sentences of a thread.
I would've hoped TL was more mature than this, apparently it is not.
And I stated the unhealthy diet of southern cuisine and lack of exercise in my post. How is that ignorant for proving my point?
It seems all of teamliquid has gone on a bias crusade. But we ourselves are biased. We are in the immense majority richer than average young white 18-25 year old males living all around the globe, that is to say the exact opposite of the demographic we are talking about. The children of the people applauding forced exercise at that conference the author is speaking about.
I wouldn't give much credit to her ideas myself, but I don't think the people in charge of debt and finances in Nashville really care. Real or not, if it works then it's good. Nothing better than good old placebo.
On May 15 2012 05:07 docvoc wrote: Other than arguing sematics, their is a heavy bias in the african american community about slavery
I have no idea what this means but I really hope you aren't trying on this bullshit about 'it happened so long ago, why can't you blacks just drop it?!'.
Because the jews NEVER mention the holocaust.
And the Armenians NEVER mention the Turkish genocide.
And people NEVER bring up the slaughter of the South American natives by the Conquistadores.
Of course there is a desire to bring the damn issue up and discuss it, it's a horrific, tragic and ultimately defining point of black identity in the US. It's so incredibly awful what the whites did to the blacks, and this goes beyond slavery and into Jim Crow. Whites SHOULD be reminded every year of how horrific their ancestors behaved, just like we would never let the germans forget about the nazis even though very very few are nazis anymore.
On May 15 2012 05:48 ppshchik wrote: African American / Southern cuisine consists of high calorie fattening stuff like mac n cheese, fried chicken, buttermilk biscuit etc. Blacks back then had a lot more workload back in the segregation days so they weren't really fat despite of such diets, but now that they can work less and live on welfare it's no surprise to see them getting fat.
Same happens to many veterans, they were required to have high calorie diets in training / battlefields but once they're discharged they become fat since they're continuing such diets / eating habits whilst no longer having a high workload.
Holy shit that was subtle racism.... "Blacks back then had a lot more workload, but now they can sit on welfare, no surprise they are fat"
Jesus Christ man, live in 2012 not 1950's
The amount of just sheer ignorance in this thread is rather astounding. It's not just the comments like that one, but all of the completely made up shit that people are repeating. Not to mention all of the people who clearly didn't read the OP who are in here arguing that obesity is caused by unhealthy eating and lack of exercise. (the author never disputed this, in fact she's advocating for heathly eating and exercise!) Goes to show how many people don't read past the first 2 sentences of a thread.
I would've hoped TL was more mature than this, apparently it is not.
And I stated the unhealthy diet of southern cuisine and lack of exercise in my post. How is that ignorant for proving my point?
You said "now that they can live on welfare". The vast majority of black people do not receive welfare. Thus ignorance.
On May 15 2012 03:39 SACtheXchng wrote: LOL, what's next?
Article: Why Jews are greedy.
It's not a stereotype that black women are fatter on average than women of other races. It's actually somewhat supported by numbers. Epically bad post.
i think it would be almost funny if it turned out that people being fat was all a political stand point influenced by poetry. but its not, every study shows (with almost everything) that these things tend to be something that starts young and becomes a habit. most people who are fat as a kid stay fat as adults, and most slim kids stay slim. so rather than looking at today for the cause of everyone being fat we should probably start looking at what was happening 30 years ago to kick things off.
eventually obesity will become like smoking where people wont sugarcoat that they're fat(because they'll eat that too) and legitimately try to bust a move
On May 15 2012 06:33 turdburgler wrote: i think it would be almost funny if it turned out that people being fat was all a political stand point influenced by poetry. but its not, every study shows (with almost everything) that these things tend to be something that starts young and becomes a habit. most people who are fat as a kid stay fat as adults, and most slim kids stay slim. so rather than looking at today for the cause of everyone being fat we should probably start looking at what was happening 30 years ago to kick things off.
and im pretty sure its not a poem ;D
Oh, you're pretty sure its not a poem? Well that's settled then! Nevermind listening to the insights of someone who has actually been living in African American culture as an obese woman for the past 30 years, turdburgler's pretty sure its not a poem, everyone. Nothing more to talk about, time to close the thread imo.
Despite the shitfest that is going on in this thread, that article actually brings out a part of that culture I never knew existed, if even for only a small subsection of the black population.
Woah, Heyoka killed it. I guess I forgot to refresh the thread haha.