Since the beta, I've seen a lot of complaints from players that just seem to fundamentally dislike a certain unit. This can be for a variety of reasons - they think the unit is too powerful, or not fun to play with, or just creates boring/linear games and battles.
We all have our own pet unit that we love to hate, that we wish would just go away and be replaced with something newer and cooler. For a lot of people, this would be the "a-move units" (roach, marauder, colossus, etc.) For myself, as a Zerg player, I can't stand the Infestor because I think its skills aren't interesting enough for the primary Zerg caster. It's less fun to use Fungal Growth than a skill like Psionic Storm, which places big micro demands on both players.
This isn't meant to be a suggestion to Blizzard specifically, but rather an examination of how people feel about the units in SC2. We're still early in the life cycle of SC2, so a lot of these changes could still come to pass, as Blizzard has stated they're willing to outright cut a unit from an expansion if it isn't playing well. However, please provide reasons for why you want this unit removed.
Also, please don't turn this into a balance whine thread! Disliking a unit because of game design is just as valid as because of reasons of balance.
I wouldn't mind them removing the colossus as long as they buffed something else protoss. for example it's a lot more fun/ multitasking-dependent to pay a zealot archon HT style in PvT compared to a colossus style as it's not so much about being in a "deathball". Colossus heavy games in any matchup tend to lean towards just one large engagement in a game as they're such a large investment, which is really not a fun way to play.
I'm not sure I really understand all the colossus hate. Can someone try and explain how it is more generic than the rest of the units in the game?
The way I see it - it has the unique cliffwalking mechanism and no other unit in the game has that. Doesn't that bring some variety? Doesn't the whole colossus-forces-anti air counters like vikings/corruptors meta game add a little depth to the strategy in the match up? How is this less generic than the marauder or roach?
Senties. I understand why they are there, but they are beyond one of those most lame units to see in play. To see one side have absolute ground control on where engagement happens makes P oftentimes boring to watch. This is why TvZ is more exciting to watch than TvP or ZvP.
God I absolutely despise that unit so much. Please remove that boring unit and replace it with another unit that is just as strong but highlights players with good micro. Colossus fest in lategame PvP is awful to play or to watch. It's hardly any better in other matchups either.
Knowing Browder though, it is here to stay forever because it is just the "cool" unit he loves. The units he has come up with and the comments from his interviews really lead me to think that he is someone who prioritizes "coolness" over entertaining and balanced gameplay.
Lol. I love this thread. I actually am one of the few people that play mech vs P so I dont mind colossus =D
Die infestor, Die!. Make units from nothing with only 25 energy TT. As the developers said in one of the more recent patches "it was [is] too much of a all-around good unit."
The reaper. It's suppose to be a scout raid unit but it's been abused so badly that it's been nerfed to the point there's no point in getting one. 45 second build time with a 100 second upgrade that serves no purpose in the game.
Colossus - too strong and too easy Sentries(Forcefield) - too strong and too accessible. Toss overly dependent on it.
Marauder - Needs to be replaced by something similarly durable but with more stopping power against zealots, but otherwise in a good place.
Overseer - just give overlords detection.. it was a unique point of a race and ZvP in brood war had strategies that were built around overlord detection (sair/DT) was difficult on both sides and sick to watch. + Show Spoiler +
kinda sad how i cant really name anything that zerg needs 'removed', mostly just needs to be altered =\
I can understand people wanting the colossus removed as it's a rather boring unit, but things like sentries? Yes FF's can be difficult to deal with (zerg here) but please don't push for things that require micro to be removed from this game, we don't have enough as it is.
On May 14 2012 13:12 ppshchik wrote: collosi > marauder > roach
way too easy and no skill and they make for boring games.
Agreed, these three units were added in WoL as a bad joke, they are literally JUST a-move units, you get a lot of them and just a-move over your opponent (not so much so with the marauder, but still).
Collosus is fine, imo. Sure they are strong in large numbers, but part of the game is keeping protoss from hitting critical mass.
As zerg, the two units I dislike the most are Sentries and Infestors.
Infestors seem like an inferior unit to BW defilers. Lore wise, it is evolution in reverse. Plague/dark swarm to Fungal? No consume? I thought zerg was supposed to be the evolutionary race? -_-
Sentries are just frustrating. They are the only unit in the game that can alter terrain and I think that it is slightly too powerful. I think there should be other ways to break them other than massive units. Give them HP and make them attackable ;o.
my order would be: 1. collosus (So booring unit) 2. roach (hate roaches and im a zerg player they are booring as hell) 3. infestor (i sort of like infestor as a player but as a spectator i dont like things that remove micro from the game)
On May 14 2012 12:56 Luepert wrote: Damn, why so much colossus hate?
It is a boring unit that literally destroys anything on the ground.
Could be replaced with siege tank...
(Not making balance comments or saying one is better than the other. But siege tanks destroy like all ground )
Thats not true though because tanks are immobile because they have to siege and unsiege where colossus just walk around.
Thats why tanks, lurkers and reavers are interesting because they all lack mobility to make up for their damage.
I feel like a lot of people are looking at this thread in the wrong way. I dont look at it with balance in mind at all it more about which unit is the least interesting. If they removed this unit obviously it would hurt the race but forget about that and just assume it gets replaced.
On May 14 2012 13:12 ppshchik wrote: collosi > marauder > roach
way too easy and no skill and they make for boring games.
Agreed, these three units were added in WoL as a bad joke, they are literally JUST a-move units, you get a lot of them and just a-move over your opponent (not so much so with the marauder, but still).
Need way more intelligent unit design.
no more a move than brood lords. yes you A-move the big t3 units, but they require additional support micro IE microing stalkers to target fire Vikings or microing Infestors/ corrupters to target vikings.
I still wish they would remove it and give protoss something else to deal with mass amounts of units. Probably won't happen though as colossus are so vital to a lot of P builds.
On May 14 2012 13:12 ppshchik wrote: collosi > marauder > roach
way too easy and no skill and they make for boring games.
Agreed, these three units were added in WoL as a bad joke, they are literally JUST a-move units, you get a lot of them and just a-move over your opponent (not so much so with the marauder, but still).
Need way more intelligent unit design.
no more a move than brood lords. yes you A-move the big t3 units, but they require additional support micro IE microing stalkers to target fire Vikings or microing Infestors/ corrupters to target vikings.
I still wish they would remove it and give protoss something else to deal with mass amounts of units. Probably won't happen though as colossus are so vital to a lot of P builds.
To be honest I don't care about the reason, colossus is just horribly boring to watch, and I feel the same way about roaches in ZvZ and marauders too.
sentry needs to be removed or adjusted in some way. When protoss players become good ( not bash race, just players gradually improve) forcefields will get better and it will make other races not able win fights.
As a protoss player I've always been upset with the decision to remove Reavers and give us Colossus. Protoss needs splash to deal with late game compositions, but I always felt like player skill got robbed when they took out Reavers. I'd love to see a reversal on these particular units.
Colossus, to be replaced by reaver. Using reavers with sentries would be so much more interesting and micro intensive, since you'd have to be careful not to forcefield your own scarabs out and prevent them from hitting.
I don't know if any units should be removed from the game, but if people aren't making X unit rarely, or not at all under any circumstance it needs to be changed or removed. ... That being said, the Mothership should be removed.. STAT!!!!
Colossus, It forces the deathball (needs to be protected). Is too expensive to be much use by itself. Helps to nullify the usefulness of the carrier, why build a carrier when i can tech for colossus and pick up detection along the way? (though the carrier has its own problems and didn't need any help from the colossus to be bad). A useless carrier weakens the rest of the protoss "air tech" because you are less likely to get upgrades.
Finally its a boring unit.
Edit: I went 2 months in i think season 5 or 6 where i banned myself from making colossus, i found the game more enjoyable but quite a bit harder. Ended up with some fun combinations of phoenix/immortal/(ht)archon late games. Or mass carriers in pvp! Also so many storms in pvt! Late game just seemed so much more exciting even with the increase in losses.
I would reccomend every protoss try a solid chunk of time just not making the colossus.
I love the way people actually voted for roach to be removed to be wildly honest here for a minute if roach were removed Zerg wouldn't be able to feasibly win against a huge amount of strats. Like mass hellions what could the Zerg do? Or mass Zealots? Its very funny how people forget how important specific units are in this game especially for Zerg.
I personally just want to see units tweaked. Tweaks could make things so much better without doing something as drastic as removing a unit. Plus, it wouldn't be an improvement if there is nothing good to replace the unit.
Colossus? This unit is the epitome of everything wrong with with this game. An aoe unit (MASSIVE aoe mind you) that requires no forethought in it's execution. At least with templars you have to account for their speed when moving out.
On May 14 2012 13:47 FlukyS wrote: I love the way people actually voted for roach to be removed to be wildly honest here for a minute if roach were removed Zerg wouldn't be able to feasibly win against a huge amount of strats. Like mass hellions what could the Zerg do? Or mass Zealots? Its very funny how people forget how important specific units are in this game especially for Zerg.
On May 14 2012 13:47 FlukyS wrote: I love the way people actually voted for roach to be removed to be wildly honest here for a minute if roach were removed Zerg wouldn't be able to feasibly win against a huge amount of strats. Like mass hellions what could the Zerg do? Or mass Zealots? Its very funny how people forget how important specific units are in this game especially for Zerg.
It's quite obvious OP is not proposing to simply remove the unit with no further adjustments. People voting for roach are simply stating their dislike for the design of the unit, and of course there would have to be some new unit or change to the zerg race to make up for the role it currently fills.
How is the brood lord not on the list? It wrecks everything. And the reaper needs to be removed too. the queen range upg was the last nail in that coffin. Oh and battlecruisers should be removed too. Why are all the useless units not on the poll?
i'm protoss and i voted for colo as wel. it's just a dumb unit that does too much damage in too easy of a fashion. the 'cliff walking; ability which seemed like blizz thought it would be neat for harass isn't useful at all for that purpose
On May 14 2012 13:54 Nonexistent wrote: How is the brood lord not on the list? It wrecks everything. And the reaper needs to be removed too. the queen range upg was the last nail in that coffin. Oh and battlecruisers should be removed too. Why are all the useless units not on the poll?
the broodlord is interesting and fulfills a lategame role for zerg against protoss and terran. Reaper being removed is debatable, with some minor tweaks it might see some confined play again. Battlecruisers are getting retooled for hots so we can see what happens after that
Only thing I don't like about Colossi is how they're a crucial part of the endgame in all 3 matchups, would be nice if air/Carriers or something different was viable.
With the Protoss AoE unit switched from the epic micro heavy Reaver+Shuttle to the A-move friendly Collosus I'd really want the Collosus to be removed and replaced with something much more skill involved although it would be difficult seeing as how templar are already the micro AoE for Protoss and would cause problems in the lower leagues most likely.
In terms of annoying units, I'd definitely take out Banshees
Considering the game as a while, probably the colosus for a more micro oriented splash unit Colossi feel too much like "position, attack move, how much damage can they deal before they die"
Marauders and roaches are also very good units.. But this is all from a protoss perspective
On May 14 2012 14:01 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: I think colossus are cool and interesting. I'm obviously the minority on this though T_T
how? they require minimal micro, you can barely harass with them, they're literally a 'force multiplier', aka protoss is too weak against a mass army mid game or something, so we needed a mathematical solution to that, introducing the colossus.
Collossus/marauder/corrupter and warpgates are all miserable failures. Infestor could definitely use some tweaking, but it's not terrible.
The roach is a very bland unit, it's not ruining the game, but it definitely doesn't add anything either. Obviously not all units need to be game changers per say, but the roach is the main unit in ZvZ and most of the time in ZvP as well making for two very uninteresting matchups a good portion of the time.
Just for clarification, these are units/mechanics which detract from gameplay, not units which may be over or under powered.
Where is the sentry ? And the Immortal ?... Those 3 units (counting colossus) combined are seriously so fucking annoying to play against. Also infestors, and then there's the roach which is a pretty boring unit. But much needed to counter most gate's units composition until upgrades / blink...
Anyway, the FF from the sentry is by far the most annoying spell i've ever seen on a RTS game. I know without it you would lose a LOT of games, but seriously i really hate when sometimes the game is decided by how well you can control the FFs no matter what your opponent does...
On May 14 2012 14:05 stormfoxSC wrote: Baneling, yo. Or rather, I'd like to see it replaced with a better unit.
Also this. ZvZ banes war is just frustrating. TvZ against banes is really a pain in the ass to play against. God there's too much things i hate, should take some Diablo3 holidays !
On May 14 2012 14:01 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: I think colossus are cool and interesting. I'm obviously the minority on this though T_T
how? they require minimal micro, you can barely harass with them, they're literally a 'force multiplier', aka protoss is too weak against a mass army mid game or something, so we needed a mathematical solution to that, introducing the colossus.
I think he is in the masses which Dustin Browder tends to the most, the noobs. The ones, which like to only see big fights happen where everything is exploding and lasers are flying all over the place from side to side. They also rarely use Teamliquid.
For me, the most hated unit is colossus. The second-most hated unit would be marine, it's just sick how a 50-mineral-unit can destroy anything that is not AoE, way over its original cost. 8 marine drops (vs Z) are the one of the most feared drops, especially in the lategame with blord infestor.
Colossus because its the main reason that protoss is a death balling race. If they removed the colosus and gave Protoss more units that are effective in small numbers or don't become insanely broken once they hit critical mass (nerf HP and/or attackspeed). To make up for the nerf, they should increase the movement speed, to reward micro. If they removed the Colossus they should just give the Protoss more viable early game harass opportunities, from the robo.
I feel nothing else needs to be really removed, as there is always a reasonable counter to each and every unit.
If colossi were removed and reavers added... would protoss players not protect them in a death-ball like way? I imagine reavers being protected in the same way that immortals are.
As a Protoss I find it incredibly hard to NOT vote for the Colossus. Nothing like a singular unit to make every matchup the same unit composition with the only variable being "WELL HOW MANY COLOSSI DO I WANT YO?" (IE different number for every matchup composition )
On May 14 2012 13:54 Nonexistent wrote: How is the brood lord not on the list? It wrecks everything. And the reaper needs to be removed too. the queen range upg was the last nail in that coffin. Oh and battlecruisers should be removed too. Why are all the useless units not on the poll?
the broodlord is interesting and fulfills a lategame role for zerg against protoss and terran. Reaper being removed is debatable, with some minor tweaks it might see some confined play again. Battlecruisers are getting retooled for hots so we can see what happens after that
I agree, they definetely need a lategame artillery. But the broodling spawn is so epic!
On May 14 2012 14:01 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: I think colossus are cool and interesting. I'm obviously the minority on this though T_T
how? they require minimal micro, you can barely harass with them, they're literally a 'force multiplier', aka protoss is too weak against a mass army mid game or something, so we needed a mathematical solution to that, introducing the colossus.
Well, there is micro, targeting clumps of units, along with positioning, pulling back colossus that are being sniped or shot at by vikings; so it's not like there is 0 micro. You can harass with it if you have a speed warp prism, not to mention they are a great unit to be aggressive with in PvT--bc FF + colossus can be very cost efficient, so you can be pretty aggressive. I used to not like them for the longest time, 4 months ago I would probably agree they should go; but now I think they are just to staple of a unit.
On May 14 2012 14:06 RaiZ wrote: Where is the sentry ? And the Immortal ?... Those 3 units (counting colossus) combined are seriously so fucking annoying to play against. Also infestors, and then there's the roach which is a pretty boring unit. But much needed to counter most gate's units composition until upgrades / blink...
Anyway, the FF from the sentry is by far the most annoying spell i've ever seen on a RTS game. I know without it you would lose a LOT of games, but seriously i really hate when sometimes the game is decided by how well you can control the FFs no matter what your opponent does...
On May 14 2012 14:05 stormfoxSC wrote: Baneling, yo. Or rather, I'd like to see it replaced with a better unit.
Also this. ZvZ banes war is just frustrating. TvZ against banes is really a pain in the ass to play against. God there's too much things i hate, should take some Diablo3 holidays !
Peace.
I actually love baneling wars, the amount of micro that is required just feels fucking awesome when you are able to pull it off well. Then again,sometimes you just flop and lose 50+ lings to like 3 banes lol
The colossus is the most hated unit I think because it requires no micro, does ABSURD damage, and works in literally any army composition. It just sucks losing a game because the first row of units in your army just gets annihilated, and then he wins because he has a larger army that kinda just walks over yours with not micro other than a few FFs.
The colossus in theory is actually an interesting unit to me. It becomes boring because it is a-move and adds to the deathball issues. All units need to be bigger so splash and deathballs are less extreme, and it needs to involve a little more micro, maybe make it so it's attack doesn't follow the target but can be dodged like the lurker. The core design of the unit seems good, that it can walk over cliffs and other units, it's linear splash damage and it's great height making it vulnerable to anti-air are all cool ideas.
I think all these units would be fine with some tuning, but the roach is the most boring of them all, although in terms of role and tech I like the roach a fair bit in many cases, but it just has too much HP. It was better as a 1 supply 2 armor 3 range unit, and they should have just nerfed it's HP, which was the real problem with it, imo.
On May 14 2012 14:22 Gfire wrote: The colossus in theory is actually an interesting unit to me. It becomes boring because it is a-move and adds to the deathball issues. All units need to be bigger so splash and deathballs are less extreme, and it needs to involve a little more micro, maybe make it so it's attack doesn't follow the target but can be dodged like the lurker. The core design of the unit seems good, that it can walk over cliffs and other units, it's linear splash damage and it's great height making it vulnerable to anti-air are all cool ideas.
I think all these units would be fine with some tuning, but the roach is the most boring of them all, although in terms of role and tech I like the roach a fair bit in many cases, but it just has too much HP. It was better as a 1 supply 2 armor 3 range unit, and they should have just nerfed it's HP, which was the real problem with it, imo.
I like where your idea is going. But, the stutter step micro in SC2 is too easy to pull off. If the Col was a vertical ray rather than a horizontal ray it may actually be harder to dodge and avoid dying to zealots and stalkers. As of now if that change were implemented, MMM balls would just keep kiting and with greater success.
On May 14 2012 14:22 Gfire wrote: The colossus in theory is actually an interesting unit to me. It becomes boring because it is a-move and adds to the deathball issues. All units need to be bigger so splash and deathballs are less extreme, and it needs to involve a little more micro, maybe make it so it's attack doesn't follow the target but can be dodged like the lurker. The core design of the unit seems good, that it can walk over cliffs and other units, it's linear splash damage and it's great height making it vulnerable to anti-air are all cool ideas.
I think all these units would be fine with some tuning, but the roach is the most boring of them all, although in terms of role and tech I like the roach a fair bit in many cases, but it just has too much HP. It was better as a 1 supply 2 armor 3 range unit, and they should have just nerfed it's HP, which was the real problem with it, imo.
I like where your idea is going. But, the stutter step micro in SC2 is too easy to pull off. If the Col was a vertical ray rather than a horizontal ray it may actually be harder to dodge and avoid dying to zealots and stalkers. As of now if that change were implemented, MMM balls would just keep kiting and with greater success.
Dude, vertical ray Colossus has been floating around in my mind for a long-ass time. It's absolutely brilliant.
Right now, the horizontal ray is almost always fully efficient against the arches that naturally form when armies engage. With a vertical arch, the Colossus steadily becomes less effective as an army decreases in size, but this can be mitigated with good positioning. But hey, the Colossus can walk over cliffs! Maybe with a vertical ray, the cliffwalking would be much more useful for getting the unit into a good position to maximize its vertical splash damage, but perhaps at a tradeoff of putting it into a more vulnerable position against anti-air. Now, you must make a decision on either maximizing its damage or minimizing its positional vulnerability.
And if it turns out that a vertical ray would be too much of a nerf with current Colossus stats, perhaps buff the attack damage to compensate. Maybe the attack can be buffed to a point where it can 1-shot workers, thus making it a viable harassment unit, especially when combined with a Warp Prism. Now you've got a Reaver with legs! And some mighty fine legs, if I might add.
I never use it anymore because it can be hard countered so viciously...but certain things are balanced so harshly around it that Protoss pays a lot for its existence. We can't have good air or anti-air because we need to have the hard counters to colossus hurt us.
On May 14 2012 13:47 FlukyS wrote: I love the way people actually voted for roach to be removed to be wildly honest here for a minute if roach were removed Zerg wouldn't be able to feasibly win against a huge amount of strats. Like mass hellions what could the Zerg do? Or mass Zealots? Its very funny how people forget how important specific units are in this game especially for Zerg.
That isn't the point of this thread dude... I'm pretty sure if you remove any unit of any race in the game at this point, there would be a strategy against them that they would straight out die to (except maybe removing Carriers/Reapers). Obviously we're assuming the game would be re-balanced after one way or another.
On May 14 2012 14:22 Gfire wrote: The colossus in theory is actually an interesting unit to me. It becomes boring because it is a-move and adds to the deathball issues. All units need to be bigger so splash and deathballs are less extreme, and it needs to involve a little more micro, maybe make it so it's attack doesn't follow the target but can be dodged like the lurker. The core design of the unit seems good, that it can walk over cliffs and other units, it's linear splash damage and it's great height making it vulnerable to anti-air are all cool ideas.
I think all these units would be fine with some tuning, but the roach is the most boring of them all, although in terms of role and tech I like the roach a fair bit in many cases, but it just has too much HP. It was better as a 1 supply 2 armor 3 range unit, and they should have just nerfed it's HP, which was the real problem with it, imo.
I'm a big believer in a tier 1 hydralisk (nerfed stats +decreased cost) and a tier 2 roach for double the price and double the stats. 32 damage and 2 armor for 150 mins and 50 gas.
Colossus, never have I seen a unit who has such a huge splash damage coupled with mobility lol. It definitely needs removal, atleast reavers were slow as hell!
Removing the Colosus means Protoss should get something else with strong AOE so its pretty much a win/win situation for us . I would like to see the Arbiter back on the Mothership place. Statis replacing vortex and recall actually being a viable option in the late game. As good as the Mothership is, its a fucking horrible unit. Its slow and if you dont keep it with ur army it always gets sniped. A strong spell like recall is totally wasted because of the fucked up unit, making the Protoss dependent on a single vortex.
On May 14 2012 14:06 RaiZ wrote: Where is the sentry ? And the Immortal ?... Those 3 units (counting colossus) combined are seriously so fucking annoying to play against. Also infestors, and then there's the roach which is a pretty boring unit. But much needed to counter most gate's units composition until upgrades / blink...
Anyway, the FF from the sentry is by far the most annoying spell i've ever seen on a RTS game. I know without it you would lose a LOT of games, but seriously i really hate when sometimes the game is decided by how well you can control the FFs no matter what your opponent does...
On May 14 2012 14:05 stormfoxSC wrote: Baneling, yo. Or rather, I'd like to see it replaced with a better unit.
Also this. ZvZ banes war is just frustrating. TvZ against banes is really a pain in the ass to play against. God there's too much things i hate, should take some Diablo3 holidays !
Peace.
Banelings are amazing, what are you talking about. Without that where will we see awesome marine splitting?
Yeah I'm surprised this thread has lasted as long as it has. Poll threads are generally closed very quickly. Especially polls where everyone already knows what the majority will answer. Which is of course colossus, roach, and marauder.
As far as the poll goes. Well I'd have to say none. It'd be better to ask which unit needs a rework. All the units right now are so imbedded into the balance of the game that removing one would cause lots of problems.
Personally I don't think the colossus is a boring unit. It's just a unit people get pissed about because it in itself requires minimal micro and people get angry getting destroyed by them. But as far as gameplay goes it adds many elements to the game. It makes positional game a lot more important (IE stalkers positioned to protect them from Vikings, forcefields to stop the units from getting in close for snipes, or just plain trying to force fights in the position where your units will be more efficient). So to me it isn't a terrible unit. It's just people get really pissed off from a unit that is meant to do tons of damage and isn't a caster of some sort. Broodlords are the same type of unit but you don't see people complaining about those. Why? Because they are more pleasing to the eye. And they spawn units that don't cost anything so people see it as cool. Whereas being unprepared for them is just as detrimental as not being prepared for colossus. But broodlords are true A-movers. Colossus you can micro to save, micro to do more damage via target firing correct areas, cliff micro (with broods it's not micro. Just proper positioning over a cliff.) And to use them efficiently does require a large portion of your APM. But like said since they can A move kill armies people get pissed off. But when you think about what they actually elements they actually add to the game it makes for pretty interesting games that require micro and smart thinking from both sides.
But anyway I hope this thread gets closed. Poll threads are frowned upon for a reason. Especially one like this which promotes balance whining and serves no other purpose (because people already know the majority answer to the question).
hahahah give protoss the reaver back and you will rue the day. Personally I would like the reaper removed, immortal because it is redundant design wise( toss has colossus, stalker + immortal? really). For zerg something needs to be done with the hydra.
On May 14 2012 14:34 lorkac wrote: I'm a big believer in a tier 1 hydralisk (nerfed stats +decreased cost) and a tier 2 roach for double the price and double the stats. 32 damage and 2 armor for 150 mins and 50 gas.
If we had Tier 1 hydralisks, we could also remove banelings and add lurkers back in Tier 2, and we could keep a modified Tier 1 roach. Something like 100 mins/50 gas, 2 armor, 22 damage, no Tunneling Claws, and 5 hp/sec regeneration burrowed or not.
I know it's been beaten into the ground already, but I really think the colossus needs to go. Watching Protoss play a zealot/archon/HT type build is sooooo much more interesting than watching them turtle up to that stalker/sentry/colossus deathball.
if they removed colossus i would like to see dark shrne removed and have templar archives make both high templar and dt available like it should do in the first place
i would way prefer high templar over collo, storm is great AOE and takes skill to lay down good storms but can also be micro'd againmst
Colossus is a bit boring but you CAN micro them and against them. Watch PuMa do his insane bio splits against colossus or nani destory greedy tosses with no-range colossus.
But, they screw with the game because the only counter to colossus is viking or corruptors. or more colossus. With the colossus there would be no need for hard anti-air units which would lead to more stargate and starport play.
On May 14 2012 14:44 RaiKageRyu wrote: Corruptor for me. It truly is the most dull unit. You can't even make fun of it for being OP like the Colossus.
I actually like the Corruptor's appearance. It's so abstract compared to the other Zerg units, and watching the tentacles when it's turning through the air is very mesmerizing.
I would much rather for Blizzard to keep the model but change whatever else.
Man, people are so unimaginative when it comes to balance.
Removing a unit provides no solution, it just leaves a hole that most likely needs to be filled with a similar unit.
Why not simply (and I actually literally mean "simply") evolve the unit. The collosus has an interesting concept behind it as a cliff-walking AOE tier 3 unit, but it's never anything but a-move with occasional micro to make sure it doesn't derp into the opponent's army.
Do the same thing I suggest doing with the hydra: evolve it. Give it some abilities or a secondary purpose. At the moment single-purpose ability-less units are useless in the game. Not "useless" as in "Better remove them so we can put in a useful unit", but more "Why don't they just make this have variety like other units?".
I honestly wish no unit was removed, but rather that a lot more were added and that we had a huge mix of variety. Instead people think balance is practically the marine-zealot-zergling triangle and that the rest is almost superfluous. If the downside you see to having "many more units" is "hard to balance" then you're looking at this game wrong to begin with. If a unit is boring then it means something can definitely be changed.
On May 14 2012 14:39 dgwow wrote: Banelings are amazing, what are you talking about. Without that where will we see awesome marine splitting?
Without Banelings and Colossi, people might realize how much marines warp the game. Marines are one of the the sacred cows that Blizzard has been unwilling to touch since the beta, but if you compare marines/zerglings/zealots to their BW counterparts you'll see why marines have drastically altered the game and forced changes like nerfed SCVs, overpowered AoE units, tougher buildings, and overpowered macro mechanics for Zerg/Protoss.
But seriously, it was a tie between marauders and roaches. I wouldn't pick colossi as my first choice, because using lasers are fun. Pew pew. But roaches define match-ups while being both boring, uncreative, simple, micro-less, and as a spectator a roach army is BORING to watch. No sick maneuvers, almost no flanks, rarely kiting (because it's so hard and pointless for them :/) essentially no cool or strategic things except burrow-move, which nobody uses in the first place. Also, making a lot of them is really punishing unless you are going for an early max (and another boring fight), and the upside of the roaches leads to boring games. Also, they have no utility. Screw roaches.
-Colossi +Reaver. It's so sad how Blizzard came up with the idea to remove Reaver in favour of Colossi. I'm so glad so many people feel this way. And for you guys who don't know why we do - please tune in to Proleague on the 20th and hope for Protoss games during the BW side of the Proleague and you will see why.
(Or maybe some fine soul in here can post up some good vods on awesome reaver+shuttle play!)
On May 14 2012 14:48 bittman wrote: Man, people are so unimaginative when it comes to balance.
Removing a unit provides no solution, it just leaves a hole that most likely needs to be filled with a similar unit.
Why not simply (and I actually literally mean "simply") evolve the unit. The collosus has an interesting concept behind it as a cliff-walking AOE tier 3 unit, but it's never anything but a-move with occasional micro to make sure it doesn't derp into the opponent's army.
Do the same thing I suggest doing with the hydra: evolve it. Give it some abilities or a secondary purpose. At the moment single-purpose ability-less units are useless in the game. Not "useless" as in "Better remove them so we can put in a useful unit", but more "Why don't they just make this have variety like other units?".
I honestly wish no unit was removed, but rather that a lot more were added and that we had a huge mix of variety. Instead people think balance is practically the marine-zealot-zergling triangle and that the rest is almost superfluous. If the downside you see to having "many more units" is "hard to balance" then you're looking at this game wrong to begin with. If a unit is boring then it means something can definitely be changed.
I wish sc2 had more unit variety, not less =(
Exactly. This is why the Ghost used to be my favorite unit until Blizzard narrowed snipe to a specific usage (bad move there Blizz). So many things could be done with it in all matchups, it had interesting and fun spells that made the dynamic of the game change and kept things exciting. Oh yeah, it was also OP
I think it be would be easy enough to fill the holes left if they just straight up removed colossi from the game. They break PvP, they overlap with high templar in PvZ, and in PvT they're used in limited numbers because of vikings.
As is, the unit is a boring a-move machine that only strengthens the deathball mentality of SC2.
On May 14 2012 12:58 calgar wrote: I'm not sure I really understand all the colossus hate. Can someone try and explain how it is more generic than the rest of the units in the game?
The way I see it - it has the unique cliffwalking mechanism and no other unit in the game has that. Doesn't that bring some variety? Doesn't the whole colossus-forces-anti air counters like vikings/corruptors meta game add a little depth to the strategy in the match up? How is this less generic than the marauder or roach?
The counter to colossus pvp is build more colossi.
Colossi force vikings or corruptors, and leads to stupid situations where you have one big trade and whomever wins, wins the game because whomever gets rolled ends up with not enough time to re-place the units needed to deal with the remnants (i.e cant get new colossi in time to deal with the bio, cant get new vikings in time to deal with colossus/units).
Just a huge snowball unit that is fine in small numbers and then becomes absurd.
For me it's collosus, marauder, and a serious damage nerf to banshee. I would love to see older units like the reaver, lurker, just something that is very strong, but you do need to have skill in it to actually make it viable.
Corruptors look cool but they're a boring unit that didn't really live up to what Blizzard had initially planned. I feel they should be changed somehow, but the reason they're the strong, 1-dimensional anti-air that they are is probably because of the Colossus. That aside, Marauders don't really make any sense and is one of the reasons that protoss tier 1 can't really fight terran tier 1 on even grounds. Same with the Roach. Both giant meatballs, essentially every race has dragoons now.
On May 14 2012 14:48 bittman wrote: Man, people are so unimaginative when it comes to balance.
Removing a unit provides no solution, it just leaves a hole that most likely needs to be filled with a similar unit.
Why not simply (and I actually literally mean "simply") evolve the unit. The collosus has an interesting concept behind it as a cliff-walking AOE tier 3 unit, but it's never anything but a-move with occasional micro to make sure it doesn't derp into the opponent's army.
Do the same thing I suggest doing with the hydra: evolve it. Give it some abilities or a secondary purpose. At the moment single-purpose ability-less units are useless in the game. Not "useless" as in "Better remove them so we can put in a useful unit", but more "Why don't they just make this have variety like other units?".
I honestly wish no unit was removed, but rather that a lot more were added and that we had a huge mix of variety. Instead people think balance is practically the marine-zealot-zergling triangle and that the rest is almost superfluous. If the downside you see to having "many more units" is "hard to balance" then you're looking at this game wrong to begin with. If a unit is boring then it means something can definitely be changed.
I wish sc2 had more unit variety, not less =(
Exactly. This is why the Ghost used to be my favorite unit until Blizzard narrowed snipe to a specific usage (bad move there Blizz). So many things could be done with it in all matchups, it had interesting and fun spells that made the dynamic of the game change and kept things exciting. Oh yeah, it was also OP
It was a little OP =P
But again it's a common thing, it seems Blizzard struggles managing abilities in the game so generally they just nerf them to crap. I mean what goes through Blizzards heads at times?
-> Thor Strike Canon = interesting, but powerful Blizz: "Oh, Thorzain looks OP with these. Should probably nerf them somewhat" -> No-one ever uses strike canon anymore Blizz: "Perfect, now we don't need to do anything more about the Thor" D=!!!!
Basically, in my opinion, Blizzard are focusing so heavily on nerfing the powerful units of races without trying to raise the units that aren't viable. Name all the carrier and hydra buffs.
I hate to say it, but I really prefer the League of Legends approach. There's a huge cluster of over powered abilities, heroes, etc but in the midst there's some semblance of balance. By also refreshing rosters and even balance every few weeks they keep the metagame fresh and encourage evolution. By contrast it feels like Blizzards approach to SC2 is to one day get to a point where they never need to patch it again...then abandon it. Probably not and maybe a bit extreme, but it's the difference in appearance of commitment to the balance.
It's a shame, because I find SC2 so fun to watch, but it feels like they're playing with a dated balance model. Imagine starcraft as a fluid game that evolves at a constant rate to encourage and promote all strategies as viable whilst including new elements. It might just be my wish though that starcraft wasn't appearing to try to just hit a perfect balance point: because it doesn't exist.
But back on topic (and tl;dr): add to the game, don't detract from it. If every unit that people thought of as boring was removed we'd probably only have tanks, phoenixes and zerglings as units.
Why at people choosing colossi? They're expensive and can easily be countered by Vikings or corrupters. If anything the Zergling should be removed. They're cheap, too cheap. No micro involved just A move. Queens can just inject and boom like 100 ling appear. Speaking of queens, they need to make it melee and less air damage.
Not having played Brood War, I don't have any attachments to units from the past, so for example when people want to keep the carrier because it's a "staple unit", I don't really care.
That said, the unit I dislike the most in the game are dark templar. They're almost intrinsically built to be gambles. Catch your opponent without detection and it just ends the game. Get them and they have detection, and it's a waste for the most part. I suppose the archon aspect is what's intended to add the versatility to the unit beyond just that, but overall it's largely used as a build and pray unit.
Marauders and Collsi are the two most stupid and lazy unit designs I've ever seen, and are the reason why I am sick of watching SC2. The roach almost falls into this category if not for the food supply nerf long ago, otherwise zergs would just be massing them and just A-move while burrowing occasionally because hydras are so bad. I play Terran and Marines + Marauders literally took away the most interesting part of being Terran back in BW: using spidermines intelligently and slow pushing as mech, instead we get stimmed bioball macro fests in every damn match-up.
Collosus sucks really bad, mostly because of what it replaced. It will never be squat compared to the Reaver. The cool things about the Collosus is that it's huge, it can climb cliffs, and it can be hit by air attacks. Unique stuff, but no one uses it's cliff walking since it sucks at being by itself. It can walk over ground units which means that balls become more balls in sc2, and on top of that it covers up the units below it, and the worst part is that if you make them you can never really transition to air since zerg and terran will make anti-air units to deal with the Collossus in the first place, so a completely different tech path is gone because of this lame unit.
Medivacs suck. Cool idea, but it's terrible. It means Terran will get them JUST for the healing ability since there is no alternative. If you made them not be able to transport units, Terran would still make them. What I hate about them, is that terran is going to always have them when they go bio, and then they have dropships without having to invest any minerals into drop tech. Mixing two different roles into one unit isn't good for this exact reason. This isn't a balance issue, it's just lame that getting dropships and getting medics is forced side by side. Not to make this into a bw chant, but in bw terrans would invest into getting multiple dropships. It was a real investment.
Infestor sucks. All of it's abilities suck. Fungal growth was kind of interesting when it was briefly changed to a projectile instead of instant. It's unavoidable and just boring to watch. "Great fungals by player X!". Really? Like it's that hard to do. It's instant... Then we got the infested marines, that makes not sense at all. They just hatch marines wearing armor. Just so lame, and they have timed life. BW did infesting semi-right, and SC2 had an interesting way of infesting terran buildings early on, but the way it is now is very lame. And the mindcontroll ability is also lame. It's timed, and it has a huge tube coming out of it, and idk, it's just not that cool. And just like the collosus, this unit replaced a very cool unit. I would say one thing that's cool is that it can move while burrowed, but in hots it looks like all zerg units can pretty much do that lol. It certainly looks cool though, and the slime trail it leaves is alright. The infestor once had a sick ability called fungal infestation. What happened to that?
I don't want SC2 to turn into bw, but seriously, it doesn't take a bw fanboy to realize that some units were replaced by much lamer units. And many of the SC2 units started a really sweet unit ideas but then they got worse and worse over time by nerfing/balancing and now we got this... What's crazy is that despite all that it's still a great game, so if it solved the whole lame units issue, it would be amazing.
The solution to cols sounds simple to me... add in a mothership'esque limiter (3?) stays in flavor of the protoss having limited resources, and never lets it become too abusive. to compensate for this, autoupgrade on the range? maybe im thinking too simplistically.
here's a thought, since colossus will never be removed why not give them some new nike's... and make colossus have a minimum attack range of like 2, i don't know if this has been mentioned before.
since it is a similar terran siege tank, but has none of the draw backs of a siege unit.. unlike the siege tank does not deal splash damage and can move but is susceptible to air which balances this out but this would realize some of the faults of the unit and be a start and rarely come into play anyway (a colossus at that height should not be able to fire laser beams in between it's feet in the first place!) most the time these ground units are kept away from colossus, so this would only make more sense and make it more balanced as a siege unit and comparable to the siege tank.
On May 14 2012 15:03 summerloud wrote: i would remove colossus and marauder and rework the roach (smaller, less HP, 1 supply) and also the hydra (smaller, less HP, 1.5 supply)
i think it would be awesome to give back zerg their swarmy feeling
My feelings exactly. At one point in beta, hydra was hatch tech and roach was lair tech. I think that's the way it should be.
Protoss needs a serious reworking in Legacy or even hots.
I don't play protoss, but I think sentry needs removed big time. It's like they're INCREDIBLY POTENT with a ton of forcefields, and equally weak without them if using the same unit comp. Forcefields specifically just need removed or seriously tweaked, because they seem to have too much of an extreme effect on engagements.
I love that some people in this thread actually defend the colossus,what the fuck is the world coming to. This unit represent all that is wrong with starcraft 2,it's the pillar of the "death ball" theory. When you make colossus they can't function on their own,so the units that you make serve as a front line meat shield for the colossus to do damage from the back,so not only does it encourage you to make a "death ball",it snowballs over to the other races because in order for terran to beat it they need to make a cloud of vikings,a death ball of their own to beat it,same with zerg. All you get in the end is 2 clouds of units killing each other and who comes out on top after the engagement is basically the winner. The funny thing actually in PvT,which I agree with is really hard for terran,when a protoss that has mastered no colossus PvT with templars,decides to do a massive late game colossus switch and just rolls the terran. I'm pretty convinced that if you would remove the colossus today and put nothing in its place until HotS protoss players that aren't scrubs and learned to use templars would be perfectly fine.
useless thread filled with balance whine. most people vote for units thiey dislike playing againts. medivac? seriously? it makes terran play much more dynamic sentry, baneling are ne of the best additions to the game. marauder concussive is micro rewarding. replacing reavers for collossus would be destroying the game just because you liked that unit from bw. its. not. the same game.
Colossi is my answer also, its just too conveniently effective against everything and its cliff-walking gimmick only ended up making the unit easier to micro in regular battles.
I like my siege units effective but clunky and difficult to control, good examples of this are reavers and siege tanks. Colossi are just effective.
On May 14 2012 12:58 calgar wrote: I'm not sure I really understand all the colossus hate. Can someone try and explain how it is more generic than the rest of the units in the game?
The way I see it - it has the unique cliffwalking mechanism and no other unit in the game has that. Doesn't that bring some variety? Doesn't the whole colossus-forces-anti air counters like vikings/corruptors meta game add a little depth to the strategy in the match up? How is this less generic than the marauder or roach?
Reminder, this poll is not about "what unit is the most imbalanced" or anything like that.
It is more about "which unit is the least fun to use/see used, both as a player and as a spectator", leave your balance babble out of the door, please.
On May 14 2012 12:56 Luepert wrote: Damn, why so much colossus hate?
It's because the Collossus does not follow enough of the key rules that every other siege unit must obey.
A properly balanced siege unit must adhere to at least two of the following rules:
1) vulnerable and limited ability to fend for itself should enemy close distance 2) slow and/or clumsy to manuever 3) require "setup time" in order to make use of its siege attacks
Siege Tank:
1) enemy closes distance? it's over 2) sort of clumsy but for the most part stays in formation with your marine army 3) obviously lengthly setup time, AND requires a spotter for maximum range
Brood Lord
1) Pray that no anti-air closes distance, esp marines 2) slow as hell to get across the map 3) needs to morph from initial corrupter form
Collosus
1) Lances nail ground units regardless of distance, no friendly splash 2) fairly mobile and can stay together reasonably well with the deathball AND cliffwalks 3) what setup time? oh, and due to its height, is a spotter
Contrast that, vs the good ol' Reaver:
BW Protoss Reaver:
1) AoE ground attack nails incoming units, but has slow cooldown 2) god awful mobility, all but necessitating a shuttle to move it around 3) required player to queue up scarabs
On May 14 2012 15:15 HaXXspetten wrote: Remove Colossi and add Reavers. Problem solved.
I would also like to see some sort of creative remake for Marauders, as well as something that increases the skill cap for Mutalisk useage.
I agree for the marauder and muta change. Well mutas should be taken out completely. They require less skill then infesters. As a Terran player I'd like to say that colossi are EASILY countered. Mutas are a huge problem though. They are fast do splash and cheap and easy to build.
As for the marauder I'd like to see them take away concussive shells. Other than that the marauder is perfectly balanced.
EPT
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