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Keep this civil, guys |
On May 04 2012 21:10 BXiT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:04 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 04 2012 20:53 BXiT wrote:
In your place of the word maybe. I've got 2 gay friend who are together and doesn't mind AT ALL (from their mouth) when we call somebody or themself faggot. In the context of playing a game, we consider being part of expression friendly frustration. Why can't you accept that people don't always live like you ? Emphasis mine. Go walk into a gay bar in town and start randomly calling people you don't know there faggots. Might be a slightly different response. 100% with you. That behavior is condamnable. But because this one is bad does NOT means that calling someone a faggot over a game is.
Actually--what he's saying is that the act is homophobic and bigoted. The fact that your friends aren't insulted and you aren't insulted does not make it not homophobic or bigoted. How insulted the other person is and how malicious you are with your intent does not define whether something is racist or bigoted.
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On May 04 2012 21:11 TricksAre4Figs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:10 FakeDeath wrote:On May 04 2012 21:08 Arrtee wrote:
I feel the worst when I think that we have a new community (BW) coming to be a part of the SC2 community and this is what they may walk in to right from the start.
Such silliness really, drama for the sake of drama =( It can't be helped. People love drama,gossips and etc. This won't go away sadly to speak but what done is done. People also love justice.
True
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What goes around, comes around. deal with it like a man.
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On May 04 2012 21:09 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:04 Finnz wrote:
People only try to get players in to serious trouble because they are jealous that they will never be able to get to their level of skill. They think "oh this is a perfect oppertunity to put him into shit so that his pro gaming career will be made tougher!!". People actually get a buzz off of doing that? seriously people need to grow up and stop doing things that are not helping players or esports in the slightest. Yes. People are jealous of a LoL player that does bad at the MLG open bracket. In seriousness, if it was jealousy then the hate mail would have been sent to Slayers, or IM, or MVP. If it was jealousy it would have been attacks on DRG, MMA, MKP, etc...
It's not. The people in this thread can cry all they want about a "toxic community" that is "hurting e-sports" from ruining their beloved orb and destiny, but it does not change the face of pro e-sports at all. Destiny's fanbase is 'lulz' and pretty much is as irrelevant as 4chan. The top pro-tier scene is still all Koreans and some foreigners here and there. There is no significant loss to the competition since Destiny never competed at that level. People are just crying over their entertainer the same way /b/ cries over stupid cats.
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On May 04 2012 21:12 iTsCaRNaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:04 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 04 2012 20:53 BXiT wrote:
In your place of the word maybe. I've got 2 gay friend who are together and doesn't mind AT ALL (from their mouth) when we call somebody or themself faggot. In the context of playing a game, we consider being part of expression friendly frustration. Why can't you accept that people don't always live like you ? Emphasis mine. Go walk into a gay bar in town and start randomly calling people you don't know there faggots. Might be a slightly different response. And then realize we're on the internet, and then realize Destiny has no history of doing any bad thing in any official event, whether online, or location based. Can't say that last one about some people. Destiny insulted a random person, in a random video game on the internet, no more, no less. I know people will just respond with, "He is sponsored, and he has an image to uphold", Destiny knows this and his sponsors should have known how Destiny acts while laddering, against random people on the internet. If what Destiny did deserves this reaction, then consistency is needed, on all counts, not just the ones people deem unacceptable.
Destiny called someone a gook in a public space. Just because its the internet does not change what actually happened. It only changes how much you care about it.
For example, kids are dying in Darfur right now as I speak. I know they are. Am I crying over them? No. Because they're far away and the fighting and the hostilities don't directly affect me. Does that mean that those kids aren't dying in Darfur? No, they're still dying--I simply don't care.
Destiny calling someone a gook is racist. You caring or not caring about doesn't change that.
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On May 04 2012 21:12 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:10 BXiT wrote:On May 04 2012 21:04 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 04 2012 20:53 BXiT wrote:
In your place of the word maybe. I've got 2 gay friend who are together and doesn't mind AT ALL (from their mouth) when we call somebody or themself faggot. In the context of playing a game, we consider being part of expression friendly frustration. Why can't you accept that people don't always live like you ? Emphasis mine. Go walk into a gay bar in town and start randomly calling people you don't know there faggots. Might be a slightly different response. 100% with you. That behavior is condamnable. But because this one is bad does NOT means that calling someone a faggot over a game is. Actually--what he's saying is that the act is homophobic and bigoted. The fact that your friends aren't insulted and you aren't insulted does not make it not homophobic or bigoted. How insulted the other person is and how malicious you are with your intent does not define whether something is racist or bigoted.
Actually it does :/ The goal of words is really to transmit an idea, an emotion or an intent to someone. They have no meaning otherwise.
I think we can stop here, if we have such a different viewpoint on this core point.
Good luck in your life and I hope you will never make THE great Destiny's mistake, so that you will be able to feed your family for ever.
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On May 04 2012 21:12 Ighox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 15:52 Blackfoger wrote:On May 04 2012 15:48 ch33psh33p wrote:
What a wonderfully toxic community. How is it toxic. I believe that it was very just such as what happened with orb. Don Imus got fired basically doing the same thing. Players should be policed Not by you. I guess this is one of the positive sides of KeSPA, they're being serious esports-police and that is much better than a bunch of whiny people emailing sponsors to flame the player they hate.
Kespa gave a match loss because when someone asked to pause the game he typed ppp instead of pp. If they were that harsh on a pause then Destiny wouldn't even be remotely close to be considered a programmer.
If Kespa handled Destiny it would have been swifter and harsher than anything SC2 fanboys have done.
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On May 04 2012 21:15 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:12 iTsCaRNaGe wrote:On May 04 2012 21:04 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 04 2012 20:53 BXiT wrote:
In your place of the word maybe. I've got 2 gay friend who are together and doesn't mind AT ALL (from their mouth) when we call somebody or themself faggot. In the context of playing a game, we consider being part of expression friendly frustration. Why can't you accept that people don't always live like you ? Emphasis mine. Go walk into a gay bar in town and start randomly calling people you don't know there faggots. Might be a slightly different response. And then realize we're on the internet, and then realize Destiny has no history of doing any bad thing in any official event, whether online, or location based. Can't say that last one about some people. Destiny insulted a random person, in a random video game on the internet, no more, no less. I know people will just respond with, "He is sponsored, and he has an image to uphold", Destiny knows this and his sponsors should have known how Destiny acts while laddering, against random people on the internet. If what Destiny did deserves this reaction, then consistency is needed, on all counts, not just the ones people deem unacceptable. Destiny called someone a gook in a public space. Just because its the internet does not change what actually happened. It only changes how much you care about it. For example, kids are dying in Darfur right now as I speak. I know they are. Am I crying over them? No. Because they're far away and the fighting and the hostilities don't directly affect me. Does that mean that those kids aren't dying in Darfur? No, they're still dying--I simply don't care. Destiny calling someone a gook is racist. You caring or not caring about doesn't change that.
Like I said, then consistency is needed, among all players, among all insults of all levels, just like in other major sports. Why punish one player for doing one thing and not punish others for doing something we deem to be "not as bad"?
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im kinda interested on who is willing to pick him up. He makes enough money from his stream anyway so maybe he'll just stay ROOT
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Just a guess, but most of the people who don't consider those words racist or offensive are white. Newsflash: They aren't meant to be offensive towards you.
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On May 04 2012 21:20 zeru wrote:
And thats what is supposed to happen when someome makes racist and homophobic comments in a professional environment, god luck trying that anywhere else and expecting not to get fired. It's about damn time actually. I laugh at the attempts to justify the things he says with "its just words"/"free speech".
The SC2 ladder is a professional environment? I'm pro and I never even knew it?
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On May 04 2012 21:10 BXiT wrote:
100% with you. That behavior is condamnable. But because this one is bad does NOT means that calling someone a faggot over a game is.
On May 04 2012 21:12 iTsCaRNaGe wrote:
And then realize we're on the internet, and then realize Destiny has no history of doing any bad thing in any official event, whether online, or location based. Can't say that last one about some people.
Destiny insulted a random person, in a random video game on the internet, no more, no less.
I know people will just respond with, "He is sponsored, and he has an image to uphold", Destiny knows this and his sponsors should have known how Destiny acts while laddering, against random people on the internet. If what Destiny did deserves this reaction, then consistency is needed, on all counts, not just the ones people deem unacceptable.
And that's where you're both wrong. This is not merely "calling someone names in a game over the internet". This is a community representative of e-sports who is contracted to a team and sponsored by a major peripheral manufacturer mouthing off extremely offensive insults whilst acting as a public ambassador for his brand and doing his job through his streaming. It doesn't matter whether he was at the biggest tournament in the world or "just ladding". This is his job, he makes money off it, it's not just for the funsies.
Destiny can claim he doesn't want to be a public figure and that he's just doing it for fun all he likes; he's still incorrect because he was contracted to Quantic at the time and was streaming publicly. He doesn't HAVE to do EITHER of those things; but he does so because he earns money that way. And with that comes responsibilities to both his sponsor and to the community.
And I agree, the sponsors should have known. But they apparently didn't. So people mailed Razer and told them, and are now getting abused for doing so. You can't have it both ways, simple as that.
On May 04 2012 21:12 lorkac wrote:
Actually--what he's saying is that the act is homophobic and bigoted. The fact that your friends aren't insulted and you aren't insulted does not make it not homophobic or bigoted. How insulted the other person is and how malicious you are with your intent does not define whether something is racist or bigoted.
Indeed. Although I fear that concept has been lost in this storm of "free speech!" calls in support of Destiny. Destiny is free to say what the hell he likes, but there are consequences for it regardless.
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But seriously, is this going to happen literally every time someone does this now?
Nothing about all this drama makes me feel proud to be in this community at all.
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The way this 'community' handled itself and continues to handle itself, whenever something controversial happens, is hilarious. It's a constant reminder that children on the internet will always regress a few years to throwing shit at each other, BECUZ ITZ FUN.
You didn't stop racism/bigotry or some hate crime, you almost damaged a team with 24 +BF3 team players, as well as the staff who get paid a fucking wage so they can live. So congratulations, you truly are are paragon of hope for the future.
Destiny should never have been on Quanatic, something like this will alway's happen when you have places like Reddit, that will aimlessly destroy a persons career because of mob mentality. It's fucking ridiculous, It happended with Katu, it nearly happened to HDStarcraft, because they 'didn't like his casting'. It will CONTINUE to happen.
Seriously go and look at the WoW forums or SC forums and then come back to the thread this all started with. It's absurd that somehow on those forums they are mocked (rightfully), but here they can stand by the banner of 'esports' like it protects them. It shouldn't, they should be wrung the fuck out and told to form a somewhat educated opinion.
I'm not even mentioning what was said/not said on Destiny's stream, because it's not even the most shocking thing, which IS sad.
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On May 04 2012 21:22 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:10 BXiT wrote:
100% with you. That behavior is condamnable. But because this one is bad does NOT means that calling someone a faggot over a game is. Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:12 iTsCaRNaGe wrote:
And then realize we're on the internet, and then realize Destiny has no history of doing any bad thing in any official event, whether online, or location based. Can't say that last one about some people.
Destiny insulted a random person, in a random video game on the internet, no more, no less.
I know people will just respond with, "He is sponsored, and he has an image to uphold", Destiny knows this and his sponsors should have known how Destiny acts while laddering, against random people on the internet. If what Destiny did deserves this reaction, then consistency is needed, on all counts, not just the ones people deem unacceptable. And that's where you're both wrong. This is not merely "calling someone names in a game over the internet". This is a community representative of e-sports who is contracted to a team and sponsored by a major peripheral manufacturer mouthing off extremely offensive insults whilst acting as a public ambassador for his brand and doing his job through his streaming. It doesn't matter whether he was at the biggest tournament in the world or "just ladding". This is his job, he makes money off it, it's not just for the funsies. Destiny can claim he doesn't want to be a public figure and that he's just doing it for fun all he likes; he's still incorrect because he was contracted to Quantic at the time and was streaming publicly. He doesn't HAVE to do EITHER of those things; but he does so because he earns money that way. And with that comes responsibilities to both his sponsor and to the community. And I agree, the sponsors should have known. But they apparently didn't. So people mailed Razer and told them, and are now getting abused for doing so. You can't have it both ways, simple as that. Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:12 lorkac wrote:
Actually--what he's saying is that the act is homophobic and bigoted. The fact that your friends aren't insulted and you aren't insulted does not make it not homophobic or bigoted. How insulted the other person is and how malicious you are with your intent does not define whether something is racist or bigoted. Indeed. Although I fear that concept has been lost in this storm of "free speech!" calls in support of Destiny. Destiny is free to say what the hell he likes, but there are consequences for it regardless.
Actually it does :/ The goal of words is really to transmit an idea, an emotion or an intent to someone. They have no meaning otherwise.
I think we can stop here, if we have such a different viewpoint on this core point.
Good luck in your life and I hope you will never make THE great Destiny's mistake, so that you will be able to feed your family for ever.
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On May 04 2012 16:04 darkevilxe wrote:
i was upset when orb was fired but at least there's a consistency here. kinda nice
No, there isn't consistency in the least.One person being pushed from a team does not mean this community seeks to get rid of hateful speech, and you'll see how laughable that thought is in the coming days and weeks. This community is so bad for itself I would venture to say it's hilarious if it wasn't actively hurting itself with every witch hunt and circle jerk.
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On May 04 2012 20:52 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:19 Incognoto wrote:On May 04 2012 19:52 EatThePath wrote:On May 04 2012 18:29 Incognoto wrote:I can't believe this. I've just lost a huge amount of faith in the community. For the record, I don't have anything against TL moderation. It's their site and they do what they want. I didn't like Destiny's ban, however I don't feel it wasn't justified (read the 10 commandments thing). This is TL's site, if they've had the success they've had up until now it's for a reason. As to what I think about the language, read here. It's beating a dead horse so you can skip it if you want. + Show Spoiler +For the record, I have absolutely no problem with Destiny's racial slurs. At the beginning, when he started using them, I felt that it was too much and I was put off by it. However, Destiny explained his arguments about the use of his language ( here is a youtube video of Destiny having a discussion about this). I then started not minding, because Destiny's arguments made sense. I advise anyone who has a problem with Destiny's language to watch the video. If they're going to have such strong feelings about such a matter than they owe it to everyone to at least listen to a counter-argument. Not doing so is just fucking stale balderdash. Again, it shocks and appalls me that anyone would go so far just to hurt a player who hasn't done anything other than use "offensive" words. It's just incredibly stupid. Let's imagine that we had a homosexual SC2 pro player. Let's just imagine this. Anyone can be incredibly offensive to this player and personally attack him without using a single offensive word. I've put an example in spoilers just to express my point: + Show Spoiler +you little piece of dirt. you're a dog that's what you are, you and whoever you're with. going about, spreading diseases with your strangeness, it's un-natural, it's disgusting, that's all you are. i sincerely hope you and your kind die painful deaths from HIV, the less of you there are the better See what I did there? Not a single swear word was even used yet I said something much more offensive than Destiny has ever said on stream. Now let's take this example: http://i.imgur.com/y8F8n.jpgImagine if instead, it had said "the absolute epitome of being a skill-less fucking fucking idiot, fuck off you dog" If that's what had been said there would have been none of this pointless drama, even though both of expressions mean the same thing. The one thing that annoys me is that no one is going to really change their mind of the issue, yet they're going to refuse to at least hear the other side of the argument. I don't want people to change their minds, I want people to agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure that no one who's faced Destiny on the ladder has gone off and killed themselves or broke down to tears after Destiny flamed them. What does disgust the shit out of me are all these hate-driven anti-fans. It absolutely blows my mind. The issue was really a trivial one, and internet white knights just blew things completely out of proportion. Completely out of proportion. I'm shocked and appalled that the community would do such a thing. If you dislike someone then just leave him be. I don't understand why you'd do anything else. Hating a player is against the very principle of esports. The goal here is watch games, be fan-boys, enjoy playing the game, having fun. I dislike Cruncher, that doesn't mean I go out and insult him every single turn I get. That doesn't mean I jump on an occasion I get to email his sponsor and taint his reputation. I was pissed off when he eliminated Idra and Mondragon with cheesy builds, I didn't' muck the forums because I was butt-hurt. I don't go on his stream and insult him. People who have that kind of behavior are basically taking a nice colorful shit on what esports represent. I'm glad TL moderates them. Furthermore, the community isn't here to police players or go on witch hunts. If a player is doing something that could be considered distasteful, the best thing to do is to just email the team (in private, with a calm and reasonable email). The absolute worst thing to do is post about and complain about publicly so that all the hateful idiots can rally around and muck up the forums for reasons that are iffy at best. If warden had a problem with Destiny he should have taken it up to Destiny or Quantic, not start this concentration of idiocy. Immature, that's what it was. Worst part is that I've learned a huge amount of stuff from Destiny, both about Zerg and other topics, yet I've never even heard of warden before this incident. I wonder who actually contributed more to the community? And this is how he's thanked. The worst part is that they didn't even harm Destiny as much as they hoped, but they nearly dealt huge, hurtful blows to Quantic (and all of the good players on Quantic's team). It's appalling. Appalling. I can't repeat this word enough because that's what this situation is. I expected something more intelligent from the community but apparently there's still this hateful part of it that does a lot of damage for almost no good, except provoking this dumb drama. Idra's rivalries are good drama, they interest people. This is fucking retarded. My respect for Destiny sky-rocketed when he left the team because it would be best for everyone. I'll continue to support him more than ever now. But the community just took a huge nose-dive in my esteem. Edit: Now I feel bad for having posted this because no one is even going to read it, preferring to justify their shitty actions with one-liners about how good they are for the community. You seem to be convinced that all this transpired due to the actions of a crowd of internet crusaders who take perverse satisfaction from wielding power against hapless victims of their secret animosity. Have you considered that people might actually have a problem with hate speech, and they take serious action against it to make their community more like they want it to be? Of course I realize that. People have the right to do that. But people should do it intelligently, unlike how it was done in the most recent incident. Unfortunately most people aren't capable of realizing that Destiny wasn't even being racist. Again, that's beside the point.You probably shouldn't bother to be appalled unless you know the precise details of what actually happened and why. Did Razer talk to Quantic? Who then talked to Destiny? Or is the image of sending emails what appalls you, whether or not it had any affect beyond the general commotion? Funnily, this seems to be detailed enough: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/t6i9v/destiny_and_quantic_parting_ways/
What's appalling is that Destiny and Quantic parted ways simply because of two words and hundreds of people who want are against social injustice. It's also appalling that people are willing to jeopardize Naniwa, Sase, etc, for something like this. As I've said before, if you truly have a problem with it, that's not the way to deal with. Look at Alex Garfield, EG and Idra. Idra was just as rude as Destiny, Alex put a stop to it, for PR, without having to deal with this incredible pile of shit that was the thread.Since you're so worked up, I assume you value esports, whatever that word means. PR funded professional gaming. Many of us do, and want to see it grow. Many of us won't sacrifice decency, however. I encourage you to reevaluate what is trivial. I encourage you to reevaluate what is trivial as well. As I've said before, the use of certain words doesn't matter, what's really important is the idea of what you're trying to get across to who you're talking to. Yeah, that was rude. Offensive? Indecent? I don't believe so. Coming from someone who was French in the USA when France refused to invade Iraq, and got shit for it. As did my father. Read what I put in spoilers. But I'm going to stop there because this isn't the topic I want to discuss, we have a zombie horse on our hands now. Responded in bold In case you missed it, I was attacking your righteousness. Clearly, you just disagree about certain things. I should have been more blunt about my subtext: there are a lot of us who think you and your views are wrong. Your disgust is misplaced. You claim: -Calling someone a gook, leading to them being offended, isn't offensive. -More broadly, the use of such language is inconsequential. If you don't want to talk about communication and language (and culture and prejudice), then suffice to say those are debatable views at best. I read all of your post, and Destiny's statement. It doesn't address my question to you about the precise details, at all. Your post informs me that you shrug your shoulders at hate language. I won't try to convince you you condone it, but other posters have all but said as much (that they do). That's the kind of thing a lot of us have a problem with. If you thinking asking Destiny nicely to change his behavior is a good approach, lol. I don't know what the best way to handle these grievances is, but when faced with something intolerable people often do not deliberate at length. I don't know that anything to endanger Quantic even came out of this. If it did, that's unfortunate. But faulting others for the (unknown) consequences of one's bad behavior does nothing to seek understanding or prevent future mishap. Especially when it involves mischaracterization, speculation, and hyperbole.
I do shrug my shoulders at Destiny's language. He's not personally attacking anyone or being racist, he's just using words. Words are tools to express your ideas. Destiny's ideas aren't offensive. If Destiny was insinuating that his opponent was inferior to him because he was asian, then I'd be against that. If Destiny uses a certain word to express his distaste at his opponent's all-in, I don't have a problem with it. I can see why others would have a problem with it, but that doesn't concern me.
What does concern me is that those who do have problems with it will blow things out of proportion. I don't think asking Destiny nicely to change his behavior is a good approach, I think the good approach is to ask Quantic to sort out their problems with Destiny. Incidentally, Destiny and Quantic did sort things out between each other.
I understand what you're saying about me not knowing the precise details of the dealings. Admittedly, I don't know whether or not Destiny left for his language or because he felt that he wasn't meant to be on Quantic. After watching his stream since I've woken up, I feel that I'm pretty sure that it's a mixture of both. Obviously, I'm not 100% certain.
Unfortunately, there is undeniably a correlation between Destiny leaving the team and the thread that was made yesterday. What disgusts me is that people jumped the gun and started attacking Destiny outright for something that, as you yourself has said, debatable as to whether or not it's a problem. Furthermore, there have been loads of personal attacks on Destiny in the thread itself, such as one poster actually hoping that Destiny's child would get bullied at school. That is a much, much more terrible thing to say than calling someone a gook on the ladder because they played bad.
If that poster had emailed Quantic instead, doubtless Quantic would have had a good down to earth talk with Destiny, as EG's Garfield did with Idra. Perhaps Destiny would have left anyway, perhaps he would've stayed and toned down his language just a bit after realizing that he might lose viewers. We, unfortunately, won't ever know, will we?
But instead, we had a thread full of immature people who were hating and just throwing gas cans on a fire that could have been easily avoided. And doing so, I can't emphasize this enough, they potentially jeopardized Quantic's sponsors. That is terrible, that should never happen. Not for something so trivial. Now someone, who is known to not be racist, who is known to be a pretty cool guy, who has contributed to the community with his stream more than any of his haters ever have, has left his team. He's raised money for charity, he's taught a lot of people about Zerg, he does coaching, he's funny. How does the community thank him for all of that? None of those who emailed Razer are even close to contributing anything. It's disgusting.
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On May 04 2012 21:16 BXiT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:12 lorkac wrote:On May 04 2012 21:10 BXiT wrote:On May 04 2012 21:04 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 04 2012 20:53 BXiT wrote:
In your place of the word maybe. I've got 2 gay friend who are together and doesn't mind AT ALL (from their mouth) when we call somebody or themself faggot. In the context of playing a game, we consider being part of expression friendly frustration. Why can't you accept that people don't always live like you ? Emphasis mine. Go walk into a gay bar in town and start randomly calling people you don't know there faggots. Might be a slightly different response. 100% with you. That behavior is condamnable. But because this one is bad does NOT means that calling someone a faggot over a game is. Actually--what he's saying is that the act is homophobic and bigoted. The fact that your friends aren't insulted and you aren't insulted does not make it not homophobic or bigoted. How insulted the other person is and how malicious you are with your intent does not define whether something is racist or bigoted. Actually it does :/ The goal of words is really to transmit an idea, an emotion or an intent to someone. They have no meaning otherwise. I think we can stop here, if we have such a different viewpoint on this core point. Good luck in your life and I hope you will never make THE great Destiny's mistake, so that you will be able to feed your family for ever.
Words also have historical weight attached to them in order for them to convey information. I don't communicate by making random sounds I communicate by using words that have specific meanings to them. If I used words that labeled a social group synonymous with being weaker or less deserving than me--then I am being bigoted no matter how nice I was when I said it.
For example.
Faggot, by itself, means nothing.
"I can't believe you won you faggot"
Is you equating the word faggot with an individual who should not win--hence why you "can't believe" that he did.
A lot of people will not be insulted by your turn of phrase. And you most likely used that turn of phrase because it was a common thing to say in your society. The phrase is still bigoted, because to understand the phrase you need to accept that "faggots are people that don't win" in order to understand the phrase at all. The bigotry is from society and it is being perpetuated by the speaker of the phrase.
This is true for all bigoted words.
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Maybe on a new team he will win something so he can be more accomplished then incontrol.
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EPT
