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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
Destiny wrote: I'm not about to release some hollow/empty apologies that mean nothing, and I can't even guarantee that I won't let any "bigot/racist/hateful/nazi/apocalyptic" speech cross my stream again. | ||
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BXiT
France44 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:19 Zalithian wrote: Do you call people niggers for doing a better job than you? Well nigger is a bit strong where I live, but the equivalent of pussy or faggot wouldn't be the first. I guess I work with people with a more mature mind on average that this community. I guess the main difference it is far more easier to guess the correct mind of the people saying these kind of words, irl. The point is just that acting professionally does not really means anything, since it is our acting that define what is it. It's not like it is defined by some superior being we should listen to. | ||
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Nethermind
New Zealand445 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:29 Incognoto wrote: I can't believe this. I've just lost a huge amount of faith in the community. For the record, I don't have anything against TL moderation. It's their site and they do what they want. I didn't like Destiny's ban, however I don't feel it wasn't justified (read the 10 commandments thing). This is TL's site, if they've had the success they've had up until now it's for a reason. As to what I think about the language, read here. It's beating a dead horse so you can skip it if you want. + Show Spoiler + For the record, I have absolutely no problem with Destiny's racial slurs. At the beginning, when he started using them, I felt that it was too much and I was put off by it. However, Destiny explained his arguments about the use of his language (here is a youtube video of Destiny having a discussion about this). I then started not minding, because Destiny's arguments made sense. I advise anyone who has a problem with Destiny's language to watch the video. If they're going to have such strong feelings about such a matter than they owe it to everyone to at least listen to a counter-argument. Not doing so is just fucking stale balderdash. Again, it shocks and appalls me that anyone would go so far just to hurt a player who hasn't done anything other than use "offensive" words. It's just incredibly stupid. Let's imagine that we had a homosexual SC2 pro player. Let's just imagine this. Anyone can be incredibly offensive to this player and personally attack him without using a single offensive word. I've put an example in spoilers just to express my point: + Show Spoiler + you little piece of dirt. you're a dog that's what you are, you and whoever you're with. going about, spreading diseases with your strangeness, it's un-natural, it's disgusting, that's all you are. i sincerely hope you and your kind die painful deaths from HIV, the less of you there are the better See what I did there? Not a single swear word was even used yet I said something much more offensive than Destiny has ever said on stream. Now let's take this example: http://i.imgur.com/y8F8n.jpg Imagine if instead, it had said "the absolute epitome of being a skill-less fucking fucking idiot, fuck off you dog" If that's what had been said there would have been none of this pointless drama, even though both of expressions mean the same thing. The one thing that annoys me is that no one is going to really change their mind of the issue, yet they're going to refuse to at least hear the other side of the argument. I don't want people to change their minds, I want people to agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure that no one who's faced Destiny on the ladder has gone off and killed themselves or broke down to tears after Destiny flamed them. What does disgust the shit out of me are all these hate-driven anti-fans. It absolutely blows my mind. The issue was really a trivial one, and internet white knights just blew things completely out of proportion. Completely out of proportion. I'm shocked and appalled that the community would do such a thing. If you dislike someone then just leave him be. I don't understand why you'd do anything else. Hating a player is against the very principle of esports. The goal here is watch games, be fan-boys, enjoy playing the game, having fun. I dislike Cruncher, that doesn't mean I go out and insult him every single turn I get. That doesn't mean I jump on an occasion I get to email his sponsor and taint his reputation. I was pissed off when he eliminated Idra and Mondragon with cheesy builds, I didn't' muck the forums because I was butt-hurt. I don't go on his stream and insult him. People who have that kind of behavior are basically taking a nice colorful shit on what esports represent. I'm glad TL moderates them. Furthermore, the community isn't here to police players or go on witch hunts. If a player is doing something that could be considered distasteful, the best thing to do is to just email the team (in private, with a calm and reasonable email). The absolute worst thing to do is post about and complain about publicly so that all the hateful idiots can rally around and muck up the forums for reasons that are iffy at best. If warden had a problem with Destiny he should have taken it up to Destiny or Quantic, not start this concentration of idiocy. Immature, that's what it was. Worst part is that I've learned a huge amount of stuff from Destiny, both about Zerg and other topics, yet I've never even heard of warden before this incident. I wonder who actually contributed more to the community? And this is how he's thanked. The worst part is that they didn't even harm Destiny as much as they hoped, but they nearly dealt huge, hurtful blows to Quantic (and all of the good players on Quantic's team). It's appalling. Appalling. I can't repeat this word enough because that's what this situation is. I expected something more intelligent from the community but apparently there's still this hateful part of it that does a lot of damage for almost no good, except provoking this dumb drama. Idra's rivalries are good drama, they interest people. This is fucking retarded. My respect for Destiny sky-rocketed when he left the team because it would be best for everyone. I'll continue to support him more than ever now. But the community just took a huge nose-dive in my esteem. Edit: Now I feel bad for having posted this because no one is even going to read it, preferring to justify their shitty actions with one-liners about how good they are for the community. I whole-heartedly agree with this line of thought. With such good news about Liquid-GSTL, GSL last night, then to be brought back down with this sort of news. ;( | ||
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TricksAre4Figs
United States125 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:27 Nethermind wrote: I whole-heartedly agree with this line of thought. With such good news about Liquid-GSTL, GSL last night, then to be brought back down with this sort of news. ;( Blame Destiny. | ||
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Zalithian
520 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:26 BXiT wrote: Well nigger is a bit strong where I live, but the equivalent of pussy or faggot wouldn't be the first. I guess I work with people with a more mature mind on average that this community. I guess the main difference it is far more easier to guess the correct mind of the people saying these kind of words, irl. The point is just that acting professionally does not really means anything, since it is our acting that define what is it. It's not like it is defined by some superior being we should listen to. Does your company tolerate any form of racism? | ||
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Areon
United States273 Posts
Edit: Oh, forgot about that MW2 comment. That's cute, trying to tone down his opposition by pointing at distasteful acts towards non-player characters in a video game's single player mode that doesn't involve offending anyone else. Destiny I thought you were better than that, that's just a silly argument. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:11 ZenithM wrote: Lol don't kid yourself, he got kicked out of the team. His statement was just usual PR stuff to save face. He left his team, he didn't get kicked out. Destiny doesn't care about PR to save face, he's said that hundreds of times. It was an incredibly considerate thing to do on his part as well. Destiny is just such a great guy, really love him. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:25 Corrosive wrote: The only people who would be offended are (most likely) a portion of homosexuals. a huge amount of people are against using racial slurs, whether they are part of that race or not. This is why the backlash would be greater against destiny (calling an asian an asian racial slur, a huge group find it offensive and complain about it, people within razer/quantic who are complained to find it a big deal) than it would be against warden (calling someone a faggot without knowing whether or not they are homosexual, a tiny group of people find it offensive and complain, sponsors/4k who are complained to find it to be not as big of a deal) What the hell? I'm not homosexual but I'm against people using homosexual slurs and I'm sure there are plenty of others who feel that way. Why would you think it would be any different? | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:26 BXiT wrote: Well nigger is a bit strong where I live, but the equivalent of pussy or faggot wouldn't be the first. I guess I work with people with a more mature mind on average that this community. I guess the main difference it is far more easier to guess the correct mind of the people saying these kind of words, irl. The point is just that acting professionally does not really means anything, since it is our acting that define what is it. It's not like it is defined by some superior being we should listen to. So if your boss does a good job you call him a faggot or a pussy? Your boss says "here's a raise" you respond "you're fucktard, go die in a fire gook" Is this the mature minded workplace you work in? | ||
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adrenaLinG
Canada676 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:25 lorkac wrote: Destiny was not attacked for swearing, he was attacked for being racist. He wasn't fired for saying fuck, he was fired for saying gook in a tone where he believed the opponent was undeserving and in doing so made the idea that being undeserving of your accomplishments is the same as being Asian. (Which is racist) It has nothing to do with whether or not he was being offensive. The difference between Destiny and orb is that Destiny is unapologetically racist. He sincerely thinks that his words don't matter at all; [–]NeoDestiny 12 points 24 minutes ago Please stop calling it "racism" and "homophobia" and please refer to it by what it actually is, "gook" and "nigger" and whatever words it are you don't like. Bad words? Racial slurs? Those are fine. "racism" and "homophobia"? No, you stupid fuck. I've done more for charity than you ever will in your entire fucking life for an organization that helps disadvantaged people who are mostly of non-white race, why the fuck would you call me a racist? Dude thinks that words don't have an impact and that if they do, you're weak and need to toughen up and people need to stop taking language seriously. Donating to gay charities doesn't stop you from be homophobic or saying homophobic things. It's not a "you have gay creds from giving the homos money so you can call everyone faggots now we're cool with that" [–]NeoDestiny -2 points 8 minutes ago What about George Carlin or CK Louis? Fucking moron. And, like earlier in the thread where we posted youtubes, he sincerely believes hes a version of CK Louis who used to use "nigger" etc. in stand-up comedy. Except he's completely not. | ||
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WaZuP
Germany487 Posts
On May 04 2012 19:04 Psychobabas wrote: All this new-school gaming culture makes me sick. I want to to shout and swear and bash my keyboard and type obscenities from the safety of my own room dammit! Just like the good old days! Now we have mechanical keyboards that cost a fortune so you cant bash them and butthurt-sc2police roaming about. I want to go back 10 years now! you are so right with this good old days were you could flame the shit out of each other and then settle it in a grudge match or so. Broodwar Community was way more mature so they could handle these kinds of offenses. Since SC2 the money and numbers of tourney got up but the fun went a disproportional way. hell im even checking TL so much less bc of too many dumb posts n shit. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:18 BXiT wrote: What does acting professionally even means ? I swear all the time at work, dress like a hobo, but I'm respected because I do good work. Btw, I work in a pretty famous IT company. Just stop citing common mass mob social behavior as a law of nature that we all have to follow. Some people still have a free mind, yet... Acting professionally means acting within acceptable limits, regardless of whether or not you agree with them. I don't know your job but I would guess you don't work in a public setting or at least don't yell abuse in front of your customers. However Destiny was a very, very public representative of Quantic and Razer. I'm a scientist. If I go to a conference and think someone's research is stupid then I might talk to them about it and point out where I disagree. But if I turn around and call them a fucking retard then I'd be in trouble with my boss because I'm there representing my employer and my research sponsor. | ||
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Graviton
Australia146 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:25 Corrosive wrote: The only people who would be offended are (most likely) a portion of homosexuals. a huge amount of people are against using racial slurs, whether they are part of that race or not. This is why the backlash would be greater against destiny (calling an asian an asian racial slur, a huge group find it offensive and complain about it, people within razer/quantic who are complained to find it a big deal) than it would be against warden (calling someone a faggot without knowing whether or not they are homosexual, a tiny group of people find it offensive and complain, sponsors/4k who are complained to find it to be not as big of a deal) It's alright to be bigoted, or not care about said bigotry to the same extent, as long as it's not as big an issue as racism, because that's taboo, but other forms of discrimination are not considered such. Gotcha. | ||
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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
If I'd be a spokesman for a company I wouldn't yell random crap when I'm working because if I did I would instantly be fired. There's a difference between yelling random shit in a private setting and yelling random shit when you're a public figure. | ||
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Corrosive
Canada3741 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:30 Graviton wrote: It's alright to be bigoted as long as it's not as big an issue as racism, because that's taboo, but other forms of discrimination are not considered such. Gotcha. Done with you. Just trying to explain why the backlash would be less but I guess you can't help but be an asshole. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:29 Incognoto wrote: He left his team, he didn't get kicked out. Destiny doesn't care about PR to save face, he's said that hundreds of times. It was an incredibly considerate thing to do on his part as well. Destiny is just such a great guy, really love him. If he and his company didn't care about PR--he wouldn't leave. If he cared about PR and his company didn't--he wouldn't have been publicly bigoted. If he didn't care about PR and his company cared about PR--he'd be fired. | ||
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iTsCaRNaGe
22 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:28 Areon wrote: Thank God, it's about time we've had some consistency in the community. And I was getting worried that there was some inequality among the severity of racial slurs. Funny how Destiny tries to first laugh it off by pretending he likes the haters and then makes an attempt at redirecting hate towards IdrA. Tough luck Destiny, it's socially worse to use racial slurs than to make fun of [whatever unfortunate situation]. Especially when said racial slurs are used to BM someone which is just careless and silly. Can't get enough of how he tried to drag IdrA down with him, but that's not gonna work. IdrA doesn't use racial slurs to BM people which shouldn't require an explanation why that's gonna stir up fire. I still think Destiny's a great guy and now he has every right in the world to say whatever he wants on his stream without causing harm for anyone besides himself, which is how it should be if you're going to routinely say some of the most immoral terms socially possible. It all comes down to social standards which fortunately the community is getting on the same page about. Also a huge thumbs up to the fact that Destiny's monumentally larger fanbase than Orb didn't spare him Orb's fate for a near identical situation. It's just the way the world works; you play with fire and you can get burnt. Bit surprised his popularity couldn't save him from the heat but this is the way it should be. Wish for consistency then praise Idra and all he's worth. Idra might not use racial slurs, but he does enough that most certainly would not be accepted in other sports, which is what so many people like to bring up in this thread. | ||
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BXiT
France44 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:25 lorkac wrote: Destiny was not attacked for swearing, he was attacked for being racist. He wasn't fired for saying fuck, he was fired for saying gook in a tone where he believed the opponent was undeserving and in doing so made the idea that being undeserving of your accomplishments is the same as being Asian. (Which is racist) It has nothing to do with whether or not he was being offensive. This kind of thing that you defined as racist actions really aren't. I think you should study again some history to see what actual racism is. It's not with this kind of behavior that we will go back to these dark dark ages. Furthermore, it seems really far fetch to judge somebody philosophy over insults on a game. Remember, if you are to quick to judge somebody, most likely wrongly, somebody will do the same do you. So in the system of value, I hope that you are really really cautious. Personally I know I don't want to live in this system of though. 21th century... | ||
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schimmetje
Netherlands1104 Posts
Sad to see this though, regardless. I wonder at what point this stops being a fun job, with all the internet knights looking over your shoulder your every waking moment. | ||
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Darkong
United Kingdom418 Posts
On May 04 2012 20:02 matiK23 wrote: Wow so a few suspension from games in real, physical actual professional sports equates to getting a gamer fired, or forced to resign from his team. When did e-sports get so big that they can afford to do this? The point though is that e-sports is not big and cannot absorb the controversies that professional football can. The actual scene is so small that it may just fade away or have a really big controversy that would kill it off. Just look at the match fixing scandal in BroodWar, other sports like cricket have had their match fixing scandals but are big enough to weather the storm, for BW it was a major incident that lost them investors, sponsors and viewers and that was supposed to be a lot more established and stable than SC2. Destiny is, by his own admission, semi-irrelevant, he's not a big name player, he's not massively successful in the competitive sense, he's just a guy with a large streaming base, Quantic can afford to get rid of him because he's not actually that important to them, if he was their ace player they might have worked something out like a suspension or something but like Orb to EG, he just wasn't important enough for the team to take that publicity hit. | ||
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