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Keep this civil, guys |
So you can't act like a 4chan btard on stream in an environment that works very hard on being accepted as a genuine sport by the general public. Who'd have thought?
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On May 04 2012 20:03 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:59 tomatriedes wrote:
Didn't someone post a screenshot of 4KWarden himself calling someone a faggot? Anyone up for writing to 4K and their sponsors(http://www.four-kings.com/partners) and telling them how we don't approve of his homophobic language etc? Go ahead, but the most that warden would get is a slap on the wrist, for a couple reasons. First, he wasn't targeting someone gay and calling them a faggot because he knew they were gay. Also, it's a lot more socially acceptable to say "faggot" because the definition of faggot has been blurred recently, since a lot of people are using it to mean "something annoying" rather than a "homosexual person".
A large amount of people who use nigger as a sort of reference like 'mate'. Does that make it any less racist? Don't use your own inherent homophobic bias to justify a blatant double standard, one that runs rampant through out this community.
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On May 04 2012 20:02 matiK23 wrote:
Wow so a few suspension from games in real, physical actual professional sports equates to getting a gamer fired, or forced to resign from his team. When did e-sports get so big that they can afford to do this?
Newsflash: This is "real" and this is by definition "professional". Regardless of how BIG e-sports is it is still a professional career. People take it up as their job and make money out of it, that makes it professional.
The scale of the organisation doesn't mean anything. It is still professional. But unless the people involved start acknowledging that and acting appropriately then it isn't going to grow because it will be dismissed as pathetic and childish and the people involved viewed as acting unprofessionally. And part of acting appropriate means dealing with those who racially abuse others.
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Great to see what we can accomplish as a community when we really put our minds to it. Now we know we can get pretty much any one fired if we decide to raise a shitstorm. We should test our powers with this and go for a top player!
/sarcasm
In all reality I feel bad for destiny as he was one of the first streamers I intentionally watched on a regular basis. I hope he was telling the truth when he said this won't affect his income to harshly and I hope another team (dear god not eclypsia for all their drama recently) picks him up
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On May 04 2012 20:12 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:09 Hren wrote:
Has mailing sponsors ever occured previous to the Orb incident? And does it happen in other gaming communities as well? I`m curious, since the whole phenomenon seems pretty new to me. The bigger the sport the bigger the tidal wave of mail. Ask yourself this question--how many letters from Peta do you think big ranches get a month? It's no different in the world of entertainment.
If you want to go on that train, how many times a DAY do you think professional athletes say stuff like this? On the court, field, locker room, and in everday life. And what's worse, we sensationalize them 10x more than people like destiny.
The guy didnt deserve 1/5th of what he got, the amount of butthurt people in this thread is ridiculous.
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On May 04 2012 20:16 Graviton wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:03 Corrosive wrote:On May 04 2012 19:59 tomatriedes wrote:
Didn't someone post a screenshot of 4KWarden himself calling someone a faggot? Anyone up for writing to 4K and their sponsors(http://www.four-kings.com/partners) and telling them how we don't approve of his homophobic language etc? Go ahead, but the most that warden would get is a slap on the wrist, for a couple reasons. First, he wasn't targeting someone gay and calling them a faggot because he knew they were gay. Also, it's a lot more socially acceptable to say "faggot" because the definition of faggot has been blurred recently, since a lot of people are using it to mean "something annoying" rather than a "homosexual person". A large amount of people who use nigger as a sort of reference like 'mate'. Does that make it any less racist? Don't use your own inherent homophobic bias to justify a blatant double standard, one that runs rampant through out this community.
What the fuck is wrong with you? I simply said that it's more socially acceptable to say faggot than it is to say a racial slur. I'm not homophobic, stop putting words in my mouth.
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On May 04 2012 20:08 Karak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:07 Tabbris wrote:
Im no destiny fan at all but my god this community How dare they not like racism. The manner!
Shocking, I know. I hear people never get fired for being racist either.
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On May 04 2012 20:16 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:02 matiK23 wrote:
Wow so a few suspension from games in real, physical actual professional sports equates to getting a gamer fired, or forced to resign from his team. When did e-sports get so big that they can afford to do this? Newsflash: This is "real" and this is by definition "professional". Regardless of how BIG e-sports is it is still a professional career. People take it up as their job and make money out of it, that makes it professional. The scale of the organisation doesn't mean anything. It is still professional. But unless the people involved start acknowledging that and acting appropriately then it isn't going to grow because it will be dismissed as pathetic and childish and the people involved viewed as acting unprofessionally.
What does acting professionally even means ?
I swear all the time at work, dress like a hobo, but I'm respected because I do good work. Btw, I work in a pretty famous IT company.
Just stop citing common mass mob social behavior as a law of nature that we all have to follow.
Some people still have a free mind, yet...
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Pretty sure pro athletes slip up and throw around racial slurs from time to time, you don't see them getting lynched out by the community of fans to be banned from the sport booted off their respective team. People need relax things happen people say stuff while heated they wouldn't normally say. It is astonishing how something no one would know about needs to be plastered all over the forum boards for people to see, just cause they do not like the individual or the act that took place. You are hurting e-sports doing it, instead of this being between Destiny and some ladder hero who wants his claim to fame, essentially by getting Destiny removed from a team, it gets blown up and you make the whole e-sports scene look bad. Keep it up guys you might just kill the sport yet!
See P.K Subban and Krys Barch for a general reference to things like this.
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On May 04 2012 20:17 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:16 Graviton wrote:On May 04 2012 20:03 Corrosive wrote:On May 04 2012 19:59 tomatriedes wrote:
Didn't someone post a screenshot of 4KWarden himself calling someone a faggot? Anyone up for writing to 4K and their sponsors(http://www.four-kings.com/partners) and telling them how we don't approve of his homophobic language etc? Go ahead, but the most that warden would get is a slap on the wrist, for a couple reasons. First, he wasn't targeting someone gay and calling them a faggot because he knew they were gay. Also, it's a lot more socially acceptable to say "faggot" because the definition of faggot has been blurred recently, since a lot of people are using it to mean "something annoying" rather than a "homosexual person". A large amount of people who use nigger as a sort of reference like 'mate'. Does that make it any less racist? Don't use your own inherent homophobic bias to justify a blatant double standard, one that runs rampant through out this community. What the fuck is wrong with you? I simply said that it's more socially acceptable to say faggot than it is to say a racial slur. I'm not homophobic, stop putting words in my mouth.
Oh, okay, where you come from it's more socially acceptable, thus less offensive to homosexuals? Jesus Christ. The meaning being blurred makes it no less offensive to some.
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Why are people surprised? It was going to happen eventually. You can`t just join a team with sponsors and expect that acting like an angry 13 year old is okay. There is always different standards in the way you have to act when you join an organization.
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On May 04 2012 20:18 BXiT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:16 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 04 2012 20:02 matiK23 wrote:
Wow so a few suspension from games in real, physical actual professional sports equates to getting a gamer fired, or forced to resign from his team. When did e-sports get so big that they can afford to do this? Newsflash: This is "real" and this is by definition "professional". Regardless of how BIG e-sports is it is still a professional career. People take it up as their job and make money out of it, that makes it professional. The scale of the organisation doesn't mean anything. It is still professional. But unless the people involved start acknowledging that and acting appropriately then it isn't going to grow because it will be dismissed as pathetic and childish and the people involved viewed as acting unprofessionally. What does acting professionally even means ? I swear all the time at work, dress like a hobo, but I'm respected because I do good work. Btw, I work in a pretty famous IT company. Just stop citing common mass mob social behavior as a law of nature that we all have to follow. Some people still have a free mind, yet...
Do you call people niggers for doing a better job than you?
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On May 04 2012 19:52 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:29 Incognoto wrote:I can't believe this. I've just lost a huge amount of faith in the community. For the record, I don't have anything against TL moderation. It's their site and they do what they want. I didn't like Destiny's ban, however I don't feel it wasn't justified (read the 10 commandments thing). This is TL's site, if they've had the success they've had up until now it's for a reason. As to what I think about the language, read here. It's beating a dead horse so you can skip it if you want. + Show Spoiler +For the record, I have absolutely no problem with Destiny's racial slurs. At the beginning, when he started using them, I felt that it was too much and I was put off by it. However, Destiny explained his arguments about the use of his language ( here is a youtube video of Destiny having a discussion about this). I then started not minding, because Destiny's arguments made sense. I advise anyone who has a problem with Destiny's language to watch the video. If they're going to have such strong feelings about such a matter than they owe it to everyone to at least listen to a counter-argument. Not doing so is just fucking stale balderdash. Again, it shocks and appalls me that anyone would go so far just to hurt a player who hasn't done anything other than use "offensive" words. It's just incredibly stupid. Let's imagine that we had a homosexual SC2 pro player. Let's just imagine this. Anyone can be incredibly offensive to this player and personally attack him without using a single offensive word. I've put an example in spoilers just to express my point: + Show Spoiler +you little piece of dirt. you're a dog that's what you are, you and whoever you're with. going about, spreading diseases with your strangeness, it's un-natural, it's disgusting, that's all you are. i sincerely hope you and your kind die painful deaths from HIV, the less of you there are the better See what I did there? Not a single swear word was even used yet I said something much more offensive than Destiny has ever said on stream. Now let's take this example: http://i.imgur.com/y8F8n.jpgImagine if instead, it had said "the absolute epitome of being a skill-less fucking fucking idiot, fuck off you dog" If that's what had been said there would have been none of this pointless drama, even though both of expressions mean the same thing. The one thing that annoys me is that no one is going to really change their mind of the issue, yet they're going to refuse to at least hear the other side of the argument. I don't want people to change their minds, I want people to agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure that no one who's faced Destiny on the ladder has gone off and killed themselves or broke down to tears after Destiny flamed them. What does disgust the shit out of me are all these hate-driven anti-fans. It absolutely blows my mind. The issue was really a trivial one, and internet white knights just blew things completely out of proportion. Completely out of proportion. I'm shocked and appalled that the community would do such a thing. If you dislike someone then just leave him be. I don't understand why you'd do anything else. Hating a player is against the very principle of esports. The goal here is watch games, be fan-boys, enjoy playing the game, having fun. I dislike Cruncher, that doesn't mean I go out and insult him every single turn I get. That doesn't mean I jump on an occasion I get to email his sponsor and taint his reputation. I was pissed off when he eliminated Idra and Mondragon with cheesy builds, I didn't' muck the forums because I was butt-hurt. I don't go on his stream and insult him. People who have that kind of behavior are basically taking a nice colorful shit on what esports represent. I'm glad TL moderates them. Furthermore, the community isn't here to police players or go on witch hunts. If a player is doing something that could be considered distasteful, the best thing to do is to just email the team (in private, with a calm and reasonable email). The absolute worst thing to do is post about and complain about publicly so that all the hateful idiots can rally around and muck up the forums for reasons that are iffy at best. If warden had a problem with Destiny he should have taken it up to Destiny or Quantic, not start this concentration of idiocy. Immature, that's what it was. Worst part is that I've learned a huge amount of stuff from Destiny, both about Zerg and other topics, yet I've never even heard of warden before this incident. I wonder who actually contributed more to the community? And this is how he's thanked. The worst part is that they didn't even harm Destiny as much as they hoped, but they nearly dealt huge, hurtful blows to Quantic (and all of the good players on Quantic's team). It's appalling. Appalling. I can't repeat this word enough because that's what this situation is. I expected something more intelligent from the community but apparently there's still this hateful part of it that does a lot of damage for almost no good, except provoking this dumb drama. Idra's rivalries are good drama, they interest people. This is fucking retarded. My respect for Destiny sky-rocketed when he left the team because it would be best for everyone. I'll continue to support him more than ever now. But the community just took a huge nose-dive in my esteem. Edit: Now I feel bad for having posted this because no one is even going to read it, preferring to justify their shitty actions with one-liners about how good they are for the community. You seem to be convinced that all this transpired due to the actions of a crowd of internet crusaders who take perverse satisfaction from wielding power against hapless victims of their secret animosity. Have you considered that people might actually have a problem with hate speech, and they take serious action against it to make their community more like they want it to be? Of course I realize that. People have the right to do that. But people should do it intelligently, unlike how it was done in the most recent incident. Unfortunately most people aren't capable of realizing that Destiny wasn't even being racist. Again, that's beside the point.You probably shouldn't bother to be appalled unless you know the precise details of what actually happened and why. Did Razer talk to Quantic? Who then talked to Destiny? Or is the image of sending emails what appalls you, whether or not it had any affect beyond the general commotion? Funnily, this seems to be detailed enough: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/t6i9v/destiny_and_quantic_parting_ways/
What's appalling is that Destiny and Quantic parted ways simply because of two words and hundreds of people who want are against social injustice. It's also appalling that people are willing to jeopardize Naniwa, Sase, etc, for something like this. As I've said before, if you truly have a problem with it, that's not the way to deal with. Look at Alex Garfield, EG and Idra. Idra was just as rude as Destiny, Alex put a stop to it, for PR, without having to deal with this incredible pile of shit that was the thread.Since you're so worked up, I assume you value esports, whatever that word means. PR funded professional gaming. Many of us do, and want to see it grow. Many of us won't sacrifice decency, however. I encourage you to reevaluate what is trivial. I encourage you to reevaluate what is trivial as well. As I've said before, the use of certain words doesn't matter, what's really important is the idea of what you're trying to get across to who you're talking to. Yeah, that was rude. Offensive? Indecent? I don't believe so. Coming from someone who was French in the USA when France refused to invade Iraq, and got shit for it. As did my father. Read what I put in spoilers. But I'm going to stop there because this isn't the topic I want to discuss, we have a zombie horse on our hands now.
Responded in bold
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On May 04 2012 20:18 Graviton wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:17 Corrosive wrote:On May 04 2012 20:16 Graviton wrote:On May 04 2012 20:03 Corrosive wrote:On May 04 2012 19:59 tomatriedes wrote:
Didn't someone post a screenshot of 4KWarden himself calling someone a faggot? Anyone up for writing to 4K and their sponsors(http://www.four-kings.com/partners) and telling them how we don't approve of his homophobic language etc? Go ahead, but the most that warden would get is a slap on the wrist, for a couple reasons. First, he wasn't targeting someone gay and calling them a faggot because he knew they were gay. Also, it's a lot more socially acceptable to say "faggot" because the definition of faggot has been blurred recently, since a lot of people are using it to mean "something annoying" rather than a "homosexual person". A large amount of people who use nigger as a sort of reference like 'mate'. Does that make it any less racist? Don't use your own inherent homophobic bias to justify a blatant double standard, one that runs rampant through out this community. What the fuck is wrong with you? I simply said that it's more socially acceptable to say faggot than it is to say a racial slur. I'm not homophobic, stop putting words in my mouth. Oh, okay, where you come from it's more socially acceptable, thus less offensive to homosexuals? Jesus Christ. The meaning being blurred makes it no less offensive to some.
Put some more words in my mouth, considering i didn't say that. The backlash for saying faggot will be a lot less since it's more socially acceptable. Whether it's less offensive to homosexuals or not is irrelevant. The point is that there is a larger group of people that think saying "faggot" is okay which will make the consequences less severe.
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On May 04 2012 20:16 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:12 lorkac wrote:On May 04 2012 20:09 Hren wrote:
Has mailing sponsors ever occured previous to the Orb incident? And does it happen in other gaming communities as well? I`m curious, since the whole phenomenon seems pretty new to me. The bigger the sport the bigger the tidal wave of mail. Ask yourself this question--how many letters from Peta do you think big ranches get a month? It's no different in the world of entertainment. If you want to go on that train, how many times a DAY do you think professional athletes say stuff like this? On the court, field, locker room, and in everday life. And what's worse, we sensationalize them 10x more than people like destiny. The guy didnt deserve 1/5th of what he got, the amount of butthurt people in this thread is ridiculous.
Do you think PETA's letters are going to stop steak from reaching your table?
Sponsors take the letters with a grain of salt. They decide how seriously the complaints are based on profit margins or long term image quality. Quantic obviously did not think Destiny was worth the flak they got--so they let him go. If Destiny was what made them so much money that it would be financially irresponsible of them to let him go, they would have given him a slap on the wrist as well.
Complaints and praises are sent to companies everyday. It's the nature of a job thats within the public eye.
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On May 04 2012 20:20 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:18 Graviton wrote:On May 04 2012 20:17 Corrosive wrote:On May 04 2012 20:16 Graviton wrote:On May 04 2012 20:03 Corrosive wrote:On May 04 2012 19:59 tomatriedes wrote:
Didn't someone post a screenshot of 4KWarden himself calling someone a faggot? Anyone up for writing to 4K and their sponsors(http://www.four-kings.com/partners) and telling them how we don't approve of his homophobic language etc? Go ahead, but the most that warden would get is a slap on the wrist, for a couple reasons. First, he wasn't targeting someone gay and calling them a faggot because he knew they were gay. Also, it's a lot more socially acceptable to say "faggot" because the definition of faggot has been blurred recently, since a lot of people are using it to mean "something annoying" rather than a "homosexual person". A large amount of people who use nigger as a sort of reference like 'mate'. Does that make it any less racist? Don't use your own inherent homophobic bias to justify a blatant double standard, one that runs rampant through out this community. What the fuck is wrong with you? I simply said that it's more socially acceptable to say faggot than it is to say a racial slur. I'm not homophobic, stop putting words in my mouth. Oh, okay, where you come from it's more socially acceptable, thus less offensive to homosexuals? Jesus Christ. The meaning being blurred makes it no less offensive to some. Put some more words in my mouth, considering i didn't say that. The backlash for saying faggot will be a lot less since it's more socially acceptable. Whether it's less offensive to homosexuals or not is irrelevant. The point is that there is a larger group of people that think saying "faggot" is okay which will make the consequences less severe.
Funny, I thought the problem here was that the word could be offensive to some people. The fact that the word is less offensive again, indicates a hilarious double standard the is prevalent in this community, and one that speaks to the fact that they don't actually care about anyone using offensive words like nigger and gook, but rather just enjoy ruining careers.
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This is just sad in any means of the word sad. When I read this thread about "destiny usings slurs" I was like... okay didn't see that coming. And now it really has some effects... Strange days. Artosis was right yesterday: ppl should just look closer to the game and stop caring about there whole drama thing. It makes me only sad to read those threads any time. It is a very nice way to get rid of people you don't like and in destiny's case this might be the reason why the person "who ran in him on ladder"? lol might have had the first destiny encounter cause he is using hard language all the time sometimes to very funny extend just as an tarantino movie... but i never heard of someone who tried to get rid of this director and his movies or even to harm his studio. Okay esports shall grow and live and everyone shall be happy. Even I don't like the this kind of harsh language. But the mentality of fucking with teams and messing with there sponsors because you don't like some player is even worse because it has NO relation NO proptional relation what so ever. I hope you have fun laddering on your cleaned up ladder. I am very sad of this developement there must be another way to mature the community than baning or destroying players and teams if you dont like them. And clearly as artosis said just play more SCII do not care of the whole freaking rest.
Holy shit ... I read the comments above are you serious guys? Less offensive cause its socially accepted. Thats the way minorities are governed with in 30th years germany... We should be over that. I go play some SCII this is depressing.
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I think some people need to get out of their house and into the real world where hate mongering and bigotry is not tolerated.
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On May 04 2012 20:21 Graviton wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:20 Corrosive wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Graviton wrote:On May 04 2012 20:17 Corrosive wrote:On May 04 2012 20:16 Graviton wrote:On May 04 2012 20:03 Corrosive wrote:On May 04 2012 19:59 tomatriedes wrote:
Didn't someone post a screenshot of 4KWarden himself calling someone a faggot? Anyone up for writing to 4K and their sponsors(http://www.four-kings.com/partners) and telling them how we don't approve of his homophobic language etc? Go ahead, but the most that warden would get is a slap on the wrist, for a couple reasons. First, he wasn't targeting someone gay and calling them a faggot because he knew they were gay. Also, it's a lot more socially acceptable to say "faggot" because the definition of faggot has been blurred recently, since a lot of people are using it to mean "something annoying" rather than a "homosexual person". A large amount of people who use nigger as a sort of reference like 'mate'. Does that make it any less racist? Don't use your own inherent homophobic bias to justify a blatant double standard, one that runs rampant through out this community. What the fuck is wrong with you? I simply said that it's more socially acceptable to say faggot than it is to say a racial slur. I'm not homophobic, stop putting words in my mouth. Oh, okay, where you come from it's more socially acceptable, thus less offensive to homosexuals? Jesus Christ. The meaning being blurred makes it no less offensive to some. Put some more words in my mouth, considering i didn't say that. The backlash for saying faggot will be a lot less since it's more socially acceptable. Whether it's less offensive to homosexuals or not is irrelevant. The point is that there is a larger group of people that think saying "faggot" is okay which will make the consequences less severe. Funny, I thought the problem here was that the word could be offensive to some people.
The only people who would be offended are (most likely) a portion of homosexuals. a huge amount of people are against using racial slurs, whether they are part of that race or not. This is why the backlash would be greater against destiny (calling an asian an asian racial slur, a huge group find it offensive and complain about it, people within razer/quantic who are complained to find it a big deal) than it would be against warden (calling someone a faggot without knowing whether or not they are homosexual, a tiny group of people find it offensive and complain, sponsors/4k who are complained to find it to be not as big of a deal)
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On May 04 2012 20:18 BXiT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:16 Lightspeaker wrote:On May 04 2012 20:02 matiK23 wrote:
Wow so a few suspension from games in real, physical actual professional sports equates to getting a gamer fired, or forced to resign from his team. When did e-sports get so big that they can afford to do this? Newsflash: This is "real" and this is by definition "professional". Regardless of how BIG e-sports is it is still a professional career. People take it up as their job and make money out of it, that makes it professional. The scale of the organisation doesn't mean anything. It is still professional. But unless the people involved start acknowledging that and acting appropriately then it isn't going to grow because it will be dismissed as pathetic and childish and the people involved viewed as acting unprofessionally. What does acting professionally even means ? I swear all the time at work, dress like a hobo, but I'm respected because I do good work. Btw, I work in a pretty famous IT company. Just stop citing common mass mob social behavior as a law of nature that we all have to follow. Some people still have a free mind, yet...
Destiny was not attacked for swearing, he was attacked for being racist. He wasn't fired for saying fuck, he was fired for saying gook in a tone where he believed the opponent was undeserving and in doing so made the idea that being undeserving of your accomplishments is the same as being Asian. (Which is racist)
It has nothing to do with whether or not he was being offensive.
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EPT
