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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 23 2012 13:25 NotSorry wrote:
Asking "What are you doing here?" is instantly threatening and provoking?
Could be. Depends on how you say it. If Martin asked first "Why are you following me?" that should be responded to first for politeness sake. We don't know what happened afterwards. From the girlfriend we know that Martin was uncomfortable enough being followed to walk faster and asked why he was being followed when he was caught up to by an unknown older man twice his size. The events afterwards could have gone many different ways. There's no way to know right now.
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On March 23 2012 13:21 Zaqwe wrote:Here are some more recent pictures of Trayvon with his "gangster grill" to give people an idea of who they are talking about when they keep referring to him as though he were some helpless child. This "kid" apparently also was in the "plant" selling business. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1w9MA.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WOFyf.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZJswb.jpg)
yeah, clearly deserved to be pursued and gunned down
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On March 23 2012 13:26 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 13:18 NotSorry wrote:On March 23 2012 13:09 Ryder. wrote:On March 23 2012 13:03 Leporello wrote:On March 23 2012 12:49 Ryder. wrote:On March 23 2012 12:32 dp wrote:On March 23 2012 12:30 rouzga wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 23 2012 12:23 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:21 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 11:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 11:33 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 10:17 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 23 2012 10:16 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 10:06 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 09:51 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 09:41 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 23 2012 09:39 Fyrewolf wrote:
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The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion. There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground. You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone. You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet. Unless, of course, you do not want to use the gun and were only carrying it as a last resort to protect your life. Amazing how you are unwilling to view things from any perspective other than Zimmerman being an inhuman monster who wanted to protect his neighbors because... because he's such an inhuman monster... or something. From reports are inconsistent, details are unknown, details are unknown again, lots of speculation going on in the thread, and we can't tell what happened yet, and from that you conclude that I must automatically despise someone and am not open to any other viewpoints. That's just silly. he made his account just to say whatever he feels like in this thread. he will just troll people all day. + Show Spoiler +Are you sure you want to lose your credibility for someone how just turns other people's word around and states lies as if they were facts?
Just the posts of 2 pages from this guy:
I do not know of any jurisdiction where self defense enables you to knock down and beat on people laying supine if they question what you are doing.
I don't see how anything Zimmerman did justified making a preemptive attack on him. Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down and screaming for help makes it even harder to justify.
Trayvon didn't do anything wrong until he decided to knock someone to the ground and pummel them in the head. At that point he stopped being innocent.
I suppose he took the pistol with him just in case he got knocked to the ground and beaten in the head while nobody came to his aid.
Unless, of course, you do not want to use the gun and were only carrying it as a last resort to protect your life.
Well at least the media does. They are treating Zimmerman as though he were White for the sake of stirring up racial controversy (and thus ratings), when in reality he is a mixed race Hispanic.
It's sad and unfortunate the way things played out, but the wrong action was when Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on.
I don't understand guys like him, all patriotism aside, who just want to stir things up, and it's bad the mods don't ban him, but defending such a person, who even puts the blame on the DEAD victim without reading what he says is just awful . however misguided he may be. at least he provides support for what he is saying. you dont just ban people who have different opinions from you. Did you read my post? You know that he "provides" this support by just making up lies? "Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on" Does he have any evidence for this? "Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down and screaming for help" Same here. Etc. He is just constructing his own story around his point of view without evidence although he claims that noone else has evidence for their side of the story. I'm not saying either side is right/wrong or guilty/not guilty UNTIL proven. But to prove this they have to ask further questions. What you are doing is listening to some fanatic patriotistic defender of this right. He would bend any argument or lie until it fits his side of the story. That's not providing anything im going to preempt his post. he is basing it on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322664¤tpage=46#920 I did read all of the posts. Being the one on the ground holding someone down who tried to put a gun on your head doesn't make you someone who is doing a "preemptive assault" or "beat him in the head when he was already knocked down" You see where this leads to? And in your previous post I see that you already recognize the inconsistence in this guy's posts "didnt he originally say he was attacked right after he got out of his vehicle? that seems inconsistent with the 911 calls and the fact that the confrontation took place after he walked some distance and in someone's yard apparently." There is no evidence yet to suggest that Zimmerman took out his weapon at any point before when he used it. Should all try to keep things factual based with our opinion on those facts. There is also no evidence that Trayvon started the fight, yet lots of people seem to assume this despite the fact it was confirmed he originally decided to flee when he started being chased by someone weighing almost 100lb more than him. Saw a post earlier that said this It's sad and unfortunate the way things played out, but the wrong action was when Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on . I find it absolutely laughable that somebody actually expects a 17 year old kid, being chased by an older male significantly heavier than he is during the dead of the night to just stop and have a conversation with the bloke lol. You would need to have literally no survival instincts if when being pursued by someone older and stronger than you (with a gun) your choice of action is to just stand there and hope the guy wants a conversation. In fact, on the contrary, every evidence suggests that Zimmerman started the fight. Which is what makes the whole self-defense argument ridiculous and insulting. What happened in their "fight" doesn't matter -- it's what or who caused the fight that mattered. And to put it in language that even children can understand and appreciate: Zimmerman started it. Evidence such as recorded testimony from Zimmerman himself that he was following the kid around with a loaded gun, is the only evidence needed to debunk "self-defense" and for the police to do, y'know, some actual work. I think we need to ask ourselves how an adult can claim "self-defense" for shooting a kid that he admittedly followed around, in suspicion, with a gun. Just because Zimmerman lost a fight that he initiated doesn't make for self-defense. And, yes, all evidence suggests Zimmerman initiated that fight. It's such blatant BS. If I follow and approach someone I don't know, across private property, I'm provoking them -- and then if I get my ass kicked (assuming, for no reason, that that is actually what happened here), that doesn't give me the right to then shoot and kill. So even if we're to believe that Trayvon was beating up Zimmerman after Zimmerman chased this kid down -- isn't that Trayvon's right to defend himself? Why are some of us so anxious to assume that "right to defend" goes to the a-hole with the gun and an agenda? Not sure if you quoted my post because you misinterpreted what I said and think I disagree with you, but just to clarify I agree 100% with everything you said in that post. On March 23 2012 13:02 NotSorry wrote:
Also what's the deal with all you agreeing that you would instantly start running away from anyone getting out of a truck and walking towards you? My first reaction would be "Hey man, what's up?" not to turn and run away. Yeah, because at night in what everybody agrees to be a notoriously dangerous area, when you are a 17 year old kid and a large male gets out of a truck and starts pursuing you, we should just assume his intentions are pure, right? Edit: So many people in this thread are just looking to get their asses kicked if this is how they think you should respond in a situation like this, I strongly suggest you don't go walking at night time with attitudes like this. I grew up in South LA, and even there I wouldn't just run from some guy getting out of his truck. I pity you for having to live with such mistrust of every human being you don't know, it must be rough. For all you know the guy is lost or looking for something, and opening that channel of dialog you can get a feeling for people before they get in range of you. Now if you call out to him and he doesn't reply while making a bee line towards you that's another story but just him getting out of a truck shouldn't scare you into instantly running away. Did you even listen to the 911 call Zimmerman made? Zimmerman didn't call out to Trayvon and try to state his intentions, he just started chasing him whilst on the phone to the cops. Does it sound like he was lost or looking for something? I'm not stating a blanket rule for every single hypothetical situation in which somebody starts following you, I'm looking at the specific facts of this case, where Zimmerman made no attempt at stating his intentions and literally just made a bee line towards him.
He had lost sight of him before the 911 call ended, so obviously he isn't just gonna start shouting while standing outside his truck. We don't know what happened, other than at some point Zimmermann asked him what he was doing, we don't know the distance they were could have been face to face or could have been across the street, we also don't know that he went right for him, we have statements that he was outside his truck at some point, then somehow it became a fight and Trayvon ended up dead after dominating the fight.
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On March 23 2012 13:21 NotSorry wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 13:15 Kaitlin wrote:On March 23 2012 13:11 NotSorry wrote:
A suspect's word is never evidence. You're wrong there. But it's ok to make shit up in this thread. Could you classify a suspect's testimonial as evidence? If so my bad. I always thought of evidence more as something concrete, too many semesters doing forensics I guess.
Yeah, it's evidence. Credibility is another matter, but testimony is a type of evidence, regardless of whose it is. Didn't intend to come off so harshly before.
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On March 23 2012 13:25 GARO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 13:21 Zaqwe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Here are some more recent pictures of Trayvon with his "gangster grill" to give people an idea of who they are talking about when they keep referring to him as though he were some helpless child. This "kid" apparently also was in the "plant" selling business. Oh good, now we can assume that the kid being involved in the weed business makes him even more likely to be someone who initiates provocations like you keep claiming.
On March 23 2012 13:26 NotSorry wrote:
Trayvon being a drug dealer still doesn't change anything with the evidence
Don't misconstrue what I said. I was simply trying to show that this "kid" was a lot more mature both physically and mentally than people are suggesting.
The media only posts very old photographs of him before he got his "gangster grill" and refers to him as a "kid" so people are imagining him in their minds as a child.
He was a young adult who presented a very real physical threat when he threw punches to the head.
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Alrighty guys all the facts have been discussed to death and all that's left is assumptions so I'm done til the autopsy report or some new hard evidence comes out.
Good night.
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because marijuana just screams maturity?
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On March 23 2012 13:33 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 13:25 GARO wrote:On March 23 2012 13:21 Zaqwe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Here are some more recent pictures of Trayvon with his "gangster grill" to give people an idea of who they are talking about when they keep referring to him as though he were some helpless child. This "kid" apparently also was in the "plant" selling business. Oh good, now we can assume that the kid being involved in the weed business makes him even more likely to be someone who initiates provocations like you keep claiming. Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 13:26 NotSorry wrote:
Trayvon being a drug dealer still doesn't change anything with the evidence Don't misconstrue what I said. I was simply trying to show that this "kid" was a lot more mature both physically and mentally than people are suggesting. The media only posts very old photographs of him before he got his "gangster grill" and refers to him as a "kid" so people are imagining him in their minds as a child. He was a young adult who presented a very real physical threat when he threw punches to the head.
Non of those pictures make him mature. They make him immature, he was 17 years old, he never had a chance to live life. And you wanna take a shit on him for it. Respect the dead.
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On March 23 2012 13:30 Fyrewolf wrote:
an unknown older man twice his size.
Trayvon was six foot three inches tall and George Zimmerman was five feet two.
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On March 23 2012 13:33 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 13:25 GARO wrote:On March 23 2012 13:21 Zaqwe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Here are some more recent pictures of Trayvon with his "gangster grill" to give people an idea of who they are talking about when they keep referring to him as though he were some helpless child. This "kid" apparently also was in the "plant" selling business. Oh good, now we can assume that the kid being involved in the weed business makes him even more likely to be someone who initiates provocations like you keep claiming. Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 13:26 NotSorry wrote:
Trayvon being a drug dealer still doesn't change anything with the evidence Don't misconstrue what I said. I was simply trying to show that this "kid" was a lot more mature both physically and mentally than people are suggesting. The media only posts very old photographs of him before he got his "gangster grill" and refers to him as a "kid" so people are imagining him in their minds as a child. He was a young adult who presented a very real physical threat when he threw punches to the head.
He's a kid who has been 17 for 3 weeks. You aren't going to be able make the case that he is mature physically and mentally. No one is mature physically and mentally when they are that age. And I said size, not height.
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6'3'' and 140lbs is really skinny, especially for a football player.
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On March 23 2012 13:35 Mindcrime wrote:
because marijuana just screams maturity?
I think when people start dealing drugs you can stop referring to them as a "kid".
Even the fact that people keep calling him a kid is absurd. It's not even accurate. He would be a youth or teen if you want to use age descriptive language.
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On March 23 2012 13:36 Zaqwe wrote:Trayvon was six foot three inches tall and George Zimmerman was five feet two.
wow. he was morbidly obese.
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On March 23 2012 13:38 Saryph wrote:
6'3'' and 140lbs is really skinny, especially for a football player.
I don't know where the claim he only weighed 140lbs comes from but judging from the photographs they are probably very inaccurate.
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You still claim he assaulted him although you also claimed we cannot say who started the fight?
So you're still backstabbing your own words?
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Is it just me or does anyone else not see this "gangster grill" this Zaqwe person keeps talking about. I assume he is talking about something with teeth, but I only see the child's teeth in his mouth.
Sorry if I'm blind :x
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On March 23 2012 13:40 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 13:35 Mindcrime wrote:
because marijuana just screams maturity? I think when people start dealing drugs you can stop referring to them as a "kid". Even the fact that people keep calling him a kid is absurd. It's not even accurate. He would be a youth or teen if you want to use age descriptive language.
So he's a drug dealer now? From the images you posted to attack the 17 year old's character, he seems to be a consumer, not a dealer.
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On March 23 2012 13:43 Saryph wrote:
Is it just me or does anyone else not see this "gangster grill" this Zaqwe person keeps talking about. I assume he is talking about something with teeth, but I only see the child's teeth in his mouth.
Sorry if I'm blind :x
Here's a clearer picture for you:
+ Show Spoiler +
what a gangsta that Trayvon Martin was
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On March 23 2012 13:43 rouzga wrote:
You still claim he assaulted him although you also claimed we cannot say who started the fight?
So you're still backstabbing your own words?
There's no evidence that Trayvon was attacked before he decided to knock Zimmerman down and deliver repeated blows to his head. None at all.
There is testimony from George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watchman known and trusted by his neighbors who has said he was attacked. His testimony is consistent with witnesses who saw parts of what happened. What is public of the physical evidence at the scene also corroborates Zimmerman's story.
Until there is some evidence that Trayvon didn't attack first there's no reason to believe it. We can't 100% rule it out, in the same way we can't rule out aliens, but it is very unlikely given what we know so far.
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"Just walking about" oh noes. Community that runs on fear and paranoia, thats what u get. Whatever this guy did or didnt do this Zimmerman is clearly a cowboy wannabe cop who put himself in this position even when hes told not to by the police and there should be consequences. Even tho this kid might have attacked him or be a drug dealer or whatever, Zimmerman clearly went against the police advise and put himself there. And you cant just go up to people and gun them down no matter what they do specially when the police says they on their way.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.missinfo.tv/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/lil-jon1.jpg)
