|
This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 23 2012 12:43 rouzga wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:36 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 12:30 rouzga wrote:
holding someone down who tried to put a gun on your head
What? Where are you getting this crazy shit from? You are just writing fan fiction at this point. There is no reason to believe the gun was drawn at all, at any point, up until the very moment of the shooting. If the gun was out before Trayvon attacked he would be struggling for the gun, not punching Zimmerman in the face and leaving his hands free while he holds a gun in them. This has become completely insane. Please take a step back from your fantasy delusions and look at the facts. The facts you are making up? You should quote the whole post or at least read it instead of calling people crazy shit. I tried to base my argument on the same evidence you do. Fiction.
I have based my argument purely on the available eyewitness testimony. Where have I made anything up?
|
On March 23 2012 12:33 Anytus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:23 Kaitlin wrote:
Maybe the answer isn't to write a law for everything. Maybe it's a matter of how we deal with each other. Maybe those who are trying to protect their communities should identify themselves as such when initiating contact with 'strangers' in their community so they can inquire as to their intentions. Maybe when we're asked by someone who identifies themselves as a community watchman, we simply let them know what we are doing and not giving them shit that they have no right to be asking me such questions.
Maybe we learn about how police officers conduct their jobs instead of having these false assumptions about what cops can and can't do, and generally be cooperative when dealing with law enforcement. Generally be the exact opposite of how this entire Occupy generation is conducting itself. That would be a good start. Sounds like rainbows and unicorns to me. If I have to shoot someone because they got in a domestic dispute with their wife in the hardware store, I want to know if I am protected or not. There will always be criminals and assholes. We need laws that clearly define what everyone's rights are and how we can deal with them.
Why would you 'have to shoot someone' in that case ?
|
On March 23 2012 12:47 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:43 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 12:36 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 12:30 rouzga wrote:
holding someone down who tried to put a gun on your head
What? Where are you getting this crazy shit from? You are just writing fan fiction at this point. There is no reason to believe the gun was drawn at all, at any point, up until the very moment of the shooting. If the gun was out before Trayvon attacked he would be struggling for the gun, not punching Zimmerman in the face and leaving his hands free while he holds a gun in them. This has become completely insane. Please take a step back from your fantasy delusions and look at the facts. The facts you are making up? You should quote the whole post or at least read it instead of calling people crazy shit. I tried to base my argument on the same evidence you do. Fiction. I have based my argument purely on the available eyewitness testimony. Where have I made anything up?
that eyewitness testimony is old, there are multiple eyewitness testimonies saying the OPPOSITE of what your eyewitness said. but you've ignored this for a dozen or so pages.
|
On March 23 2012 12:47 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:43 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 12:36 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 12:30 rouzga wrote:
holding someone down who tried to put a gun on your head
What? Where are you getting this crazy shit from? You are just writing fan fiction at this point. There is no reason to believe the gun was drawn at all, at any point, up until the very moment of the shooting. If the gun was out before Trayvon attacked he would be struggling for the gun, not punching Zimmerman in the face and leaving his hands free while he holds a gun in them. This has become completely insane. Please take a step back from your fantasy delusions and look at the facts. The facts you are making up? You should quote the whole post or at least read it instead of calling people crazy shit. I tried to base my argument on the same evidence you do. Fiction. I have based my argument purely on the available eyewitness testimony. Where have I made anything up?
The eyewitnesses who admit they barely saw anything? Eyewitness accounts also happen to be the weakest form of evidence. Memories are tricky, and often people do not remember things as they really are.
|
On March 23 2012 12:32 dp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:30 rouzga wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 23 2012 12:23 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:21 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 11:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 11:33 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 10:17 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 23 2012 10:16 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 10:06 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 09:51 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 09:41 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 23 2012 09:39 Fyrewolf wrote:
[quote]
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion. There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground. You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone. You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet. Unless, of course, you do not want to use the gun and were only carrying it as a last resort to protect your life. Amazing how you are unwilling to view things from any perspective other than Zimmerman being an inhuman monster who wanted to protect his neighbors because... because he's such an inhuman monster... or something. From reports are inconsistent, details are unknown, details are unknown again, lots of speculation going on in the thread, and we can't tell what happened yet, and from that you conclude that I must automatically despise someone and am not open to any other viewpoints. That's just silly. he made his account just to say whatever he feels like in this thread. he will just troll people all day. + Show Spoiler +Are you sure you want to lose your credibility for someone how just turns other people's word around and states lies as if they were facts?
Just the posts of 2 pages from this guy:
I do not know of any jurisdiction where self defense enables you to knock down and beat on people laying supine if they question what you are doing.
I don't see how anything Zimmerman did justified making a preemptive attack on him. Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down and screaming for help makes it even harder to justify.
Trayvon didn't do anything wrong until he decided to knock someone to the ground and pummel them in the head. At that point he stopped being innocent.
I suppose he took the pistol with him just in case he got knocked to the ground and beaten in the head while nobody came to his aid.
Unless, of course, you do not want to use the gun and were only carrying it as a last resort to protect your life.
Well at least the media does. They are treating Zimmerman as though he were White for the sake of stirring up racial controversy (and thus ratings), when in reality he is a mixed race Hispanic.
It's sad and unfortunate the way things played out, but the wrong action was when Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on.
I don't understand guys like him, all patriotism aside, who just want to stir things up, and it's bad the mods don't ban him, but defending such a person, who even puts the blame on the DEAD victim without reading what he says is just awful . however misguided he may be. at least he provides support for what he is saying. you dont just ban people who have different opinions from you. Did you read my post? You know that he "provides" this support by just making up lies? "Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on" Does he have any evidence for this? "Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down and screaming for help" Same here. Etc. He is just constructing his own story around his point of view without evidence although he claims that noone else has evidence for their side of the story. I'm not saying either side is right/wrong or guilty/not guilty UNTIL proven. But to prove this they have to ask further questions. What you are doing is listening to some fanatic patriotistic defender of this right. He would bend any argument or lie until it fits his side of the story. That's not providing anything im going to preempt his post. he is basing it on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322664¤tpage=46#920 I did read all of the posts. Being the one on the ground holding someone down who tried to put a gun on your head doesn't make you someone who is doing a "preemptive assault" or "beat him in the head when he was already knocked down" You see where this leads to? And in your previous post I see that you already recognize the inconsistence in this guy's posts "didnt he originally say he was attacked right after he got out of his vehicle? that seems inconsistent with the 911 calls and the fact that the confrontation took place after he walked some distance and in someone's yard apparently." There is no evidence yet to suggest that Zimmerman took out his weapon at any point before when he used it. Should all try to keep things factual based with our opinion on those facts.
There is also no evidence that Trayvon started the fight, yet lots of people seem to assume this despite the fact it was confirmed he originally decided to flee when he started being chased by someone weighing almost 100lb more than him.
Saw a post earlier that said this It's sad and unfortunate the way things played out, but the wrong action was when Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on . I find it absolutely laughable that somebody actually expects a 17 year old kid, being chased by an older male significantly heavier than he is during the dead of the night to just stop and have a conversation with the bloke lol. You would need to have literally no survival instincts if when being pursued by someone older and stronger than you (with a gun) your choice of action is to just stand there and hope the guy wants a conversation.
|
On March 23 2012 12:42 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
when i said misguided, i meant i dont agree with him all the time. but at least he is attempting to support his positions with sources. i may not agree with his interpretation of the events, but he is making an attempt to support them. he is not trolling. the majority of the people in this thread have jumped to conclusions without any basis; he arguably is doing the same, but is supporting his views at the very least. when i saw an inconsistency, i responded as such. but again, his only source is the ORIGINAL report of what happened. with people not giving statements to the police. since then multiple other witnesses have contradicted his source. those sources have been posted numerous times throughout the thread, where he only completely ignores them, he is here with a new account (violation of TL rules), solely to start arguments and not to discuss the actual case. in his 40+ posts here he hasn't done anything but egg people on and post the same thing over and over. he is clearly and blatently a troll at worst, and at best in violation of TL policy.
I have not seen anything to contradict the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman on the ground shouting for help while being struck in the head by Trayvon.
|
Eye witnesses coming forward nearly a month later are kind of hard to believe since they've been exposed to all the media bias before giving their statement and events of what you saw and what you thought or wanted to see can be altered with time.
It's not uncommon for a witness to go from "he had something in his waist band", to "I saw a gun in his waist band"
|
Grass stains on his back?
Seems like he was getting his ass beaten by that 17 year old
If he's getting punched in the head, he could suffer brain damage
Self defense.
|
On March 23 2012 12:49 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:32 dp wrote:On March 23 2012 12:30 rouzga wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 23 2012 12:23 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:21 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 11:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 11:33 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 10:17 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 23 2012 10:16 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 10:06 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 09:51 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 09:41 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 23 2012 09:39 Fyrewolf wrote:
[quote]
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion. There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground. You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone. You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet. Unless, of course, you do not want to use the gun and were only carrying it as a last resort to protect your life. Amazing how you are unwilling to view things from any perspective other than Zimmerman being an inhuman monster who wanted to protect his neighbors because... because he's such an inhuman monster... or something. From reports are inconsistent, details are unknown, details are unknown again, lots of speculation going on in the thread, and we can't tell what happened yet, and from that you conclude that I must automatically despise someone and am not open to any other viewpoints. That's just silly. he made his account just to say whatever he feels like in this thread. he will just troll people all day. + Show Spoiler +Are you sure you want to lose your credibility for someone how just turns other people's word around and states lies as if they were facts?
Just the posts of 2 pages from this guy:
I do not know of any jurisdiction where self defense enables you to knock down and beat on people laying supine if they question what you are doing.
I don't see how anything Zimmerman did justified making a preemptive attack on him. Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down and screaming for help makes it even harder to justify.
Trayvon didn't do anything wrong until he decided to knock someone to the ground and pummel them in the head. At that point he stopped being innocent.
I suppose he took the pistol with him just in case he got knocked to the ground and beaten in the head while nobody came to his aid.
Unless, of course, you do not want to use the gun and were only carrying it as a last resort to protect your life.
Well at least the media does. They are treating Zimmerman as though he were White for the sake of stirring up racial controversy (and thus ratings), when in reality he is a mixed race Hispanic.
It's sad and unfortunate the way things played out, but the wrong action was when Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on.
I don't understand guys like him, all patriotism aside, who just want to stir things up, and it's bad the mods don't ban him, but defending such a person, who even puts the blame on the DEAD victim without reading what he says is just awful . however misguided he may be. at least he provides support for what he is saying. you dont just ban people who have different opinions from you. Did you read my post? You know that he "provides" this support by just making up lies? "Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on" Does he have any evidence for this? "Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down and screaming for help" Same here. Etc. He is just constructing his own story around his point of view without evidence although he claims that noone else has evidence for their side of the story. I'm not saying either side is right/wrong or guilty/not guilty UNTIL proven. But to prove this they have to ask further questions. What you are doing is listening to some fanatic patriotistic defender of this right. He would bend any argument or lie until it fits his side of the story. That's not providing anything im going to preempt his post. he is basing it on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322664¤tpage=46#920 I did read all of the posts. Being the one on the ground holding someone down who tried to put a gun on your head doesn't make you someone who is doing a "preemptive assault" or "beat him in the head when he was already knocked down" You see where this leads to? And in your previous post I see that you already recognize the inconsistence in this guy's posts "didnt he originally say he was attacked right after he got out of his vehicle? that seems inconsistent with the 911 calls and the fact that the confrontation took place after he walked some distance and in someone's yard apparently." There is no evidence yet to suggest that Zimmerman took out his weapon at any point before when he used it. Should all try to keep things factual based with our opinion on those facts. There is also no evidence that Trayvon started the fight, yet lots of people seem to assume this despite the fact it was confirmed he originally decided to flee when he started being chased by someone weighing almost 100lb more than him. Saw a post earlier that said this Show nested quote +It's sad and unfortunate the way things played out, but the wrong action was when Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on . I find it absolutely laughable that somebody actually expects a 17 year old kid, being chased by an older male significantly heavier than he is during the dead of the night to just stop and have a conversation with the bloke lol. You would need to have literally no survival instincts if when being pursued by someone older and stronger than you (with a gun) your choice of action is to just stand there and hope the guy wants a conversation.
You're assuming Trayvon knew Zimmerman was armed. I think that is highly unlikely, as the subsequent fight would have been a wrestling match for the gun instead of a pummeling of the face with no attention paid to the gun that shot him. And do you really think had Trayvon run away that this 250 lb man could have caught up to this 17 yr old football player ? I doubt it. It's safe to say Trayvon didn't know about the gun until it was too late.
|
^that is also a good point.
If he was running away, the trajectory of the bullet wouldn't have entered into the front of his chest.
|
On March 23 2012 12:49 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:32 dp wrote:On March 23 2012 12:30 rouzga wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 23 2012 12:23 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:21 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 11:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 11:33 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 10:17 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 23 2012 10:16 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 10:06 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 09:51 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 09:41 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 23 2012 09:39 Fyrewolf wrote:
[quote]
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion. There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground. You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone. You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet. Unless, of course, you do not want to use the gun and were only carrying it as a last resort to protect your life. Amazing how you are unwilling to view things from any perspective other than Zimmerman being an inhuman monster who wanted to protect his neighbors because... because he's such an inhuman monster... or something. From reports are inconsistent, details are unknown, details are unknown again, lots of speculation going on in the thread, and we can't tell what happened yet, and from that you conclude that I must automatically despise someone and am not open to any other viewpoints. That's just silly. he made his account just to say whatever he feels like in this thread. he will just troll people all day. + Show Spoiler +Are you sure you want to lose your credibility for someone how just turns other people's word around and states lies as if they were facts?
Just the posts of 2 pages from this guy:
I do not know of any jurisdiction where self defense enables you to knock down and beat on people laying supine if they question what you are doing.
I don't see how anything Zimmerman did justified making a preemptive attack on him. Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down and screaming for help makes it even harder to justify.
Trayvon didn't do anything wrong until he decided to knock someone to the ground and pummel them in the head. At that point he stopped being innocent.
I suppose he took the pistol with him just in case he got knocked to the ground and beaten in the head while nobody came to his aid.
Unless, of course, you do not want to use the gun and were only carrying it as a last resort to protect your life.
Well at least the media does. They are treating Zimmerman as though he were White for the sake of stirring up racial controversy (and thus ratings), when in reality he is a mixed race Hispanic.
It's sad and unfortunate the way things played out, but the wrong action was when Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on.
I don't understand guys like him, all patriotism aside, who just want to stir things up, and it's bad the mods don't ban him, but defending such a person, who even puts the blame on the DEAD victim without reading what he says is just awful . however misguided he may be. at least he provides support for what he is saying. you dont just ban people who have different opinions from you. Did you read my post? You know that he "provides" this support by just making up lies? "Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on" Does he have any evidence for this? "Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down and screaming for help" Same here. Etc. He is just constructing his own story around his point of view without evidence although he claims that noone else has evidence for their side of the story. I'm not saying either side is right/wrong or guilty/not guilty UNTIL proven. But to prove this they have to ask further questions. What you are doing is listening to some fanatic patriotistic defender of this right. He would bend any argument or lie until it fits his side of the story. That's not providing anything im going to preempt his post. he is basing it on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322664¤tpage=46#920 I did read all of the posts. Being the one on the ground holding someone down who tried to put a gun on your head doesn't make you someone who is doing a "preemptive assault" or "beat him in the head when he was already knocked down" You see where this leads to? And in your previous post I see that you already recognize the inconsistence in this guy's posts "didnt he originally say he was attacked right after he got out of his vehicle? that seems inconsistent with the 911 calls and the fact that the confrontation took place after he walked some distance and in someone's yard apparently." There is no evidence yet to suggest that Zimmerman took out his weapon at any point before when he used it. Should all try to keep things factual based with our opinion on those facts. There is also no evidence that Trayvon started the fight, yet lots of people seem to assume this despite the fact it was confirmed he originally decided to flee when he started being chased by someone weighing almost 100lb more than him. Saw a post earlier that said this Show nested quote +It's sad and unfortunate the way things played out, but the wrong action was when Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on . I find it absolutely laughable that somebody actually expects a 17 year old kid, being chased by an older male significantly heavier than he is during the dead of the night to just stop and have a conversation with the bloke lol. You would need to have literally no survival instincts if when being pursued by someone older and stronger than you (with a gun) your choice of action is to just stand there and hope the guy wants a conversation.
He "decided to flee" when he was being followed by a truck. He attacked when the man got out of the truck.
|
On March 23 2012 12:47 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:43 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 12:36 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 12:30 rouzga wrote:
holding someone down who tried to put a gun on your head
What? Where are you getting this crazy shit from? You are just writing fan fiction at this point. There is no reason to believe the gun was drawn at all, at any point, up until the very moment of the shooting. If the gun was out before Trayvon attacked he would be struggling for the gun, not punching Zimmerman in the face and leaving his hands free while he holds a gun in them. This has become completely insane. Please take a step back from your fantasy delusions and look at the facts. The facts you are making up? You should quote the whole post or at least read it instead of calling people crazy shit. I tried to base my argument on the same evidence you do. Fiction. I have based my argument purely on the available eyewitness testimony. Where have I made anything up?
Read my post or PM me, there is NO sign of a "preemptive assault" or that he was ´"Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down"
He was on the ground. The rest is you imagination"
|
On March 23 2012 12:49 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:42 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 23 2012 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
when i said misguided, i meant i dont agree with him all the time. but at least he is attempting to support his positions with sources. i may not agree with his interpretation of the events, but he is making an attempt to support them. he is not trolling. the majority of the people in this thread have jumped to conclusions without any basis; he arguably is doing the same, but is supporting his views at the very least. when i saw an inconsistency, i responded as such. but again, his only source is the ORIGINAL report of what happened. with people not giving statements to the police. since then multiple other witnesses have contradicted his source. those sources have been posted numerous times throughout the thread, where he only completely ignores them, he is here with a new account (violation of TL rules), solely to start arguments and not to discuss the actual case. in his 40+ posts here he hasn't done anything but egg people on and post the same thing over and over. he is clearly and blatently a troll at worst, and at best in violation of TL policy. I have not seen anything to contradict the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman on the ground shouting for help while being struck in the head by Trayvon.
That still doesn't mean shit. How does that let you conclude that he started the fight? Because he was winning it? He started it? Maybe the simple act of chasing someone through other peoples backyards at night might provoke them to attack you.
|
He is a football star, and the other guy is a 250 pound mexican. Who is faster?
You're saying, with a head start, he got ran down?
|
On March 23 2012 12:55 Bill Murray wrote:
^that is also a good point.
If he was running away, the trajectory of the bullet wouldn't have entered into the front of his chest.
zimmerman was found straddling martin holding a gun, just after a gunshot was heard. it's clear he had martin pinned down and shot him. also zimmerman chased him in a truck.
|
On March 23 2012 12:56 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:49 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 12:42 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 23 2012 12:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
when i said misguided, i meant i dont agree with him all the time. but at least he is attempting to support his positions with sources. i may not agree with his interpretation of the events, but he is making an attempt to support them. he is not trolling. the majority of the people in this thread have jumped to conclusions without any basis; he arguably is doing the same, but is supporting his views at the very least. when i saw an inconsistency, i responded as such. but again, his only source is the ORIGINAL report of what happened. with people not giving statements to the police. since then multiple other witnesses have contradicted his source. those sources have been posted numerous times throughout the thread, where he only completely ignores them, he is here with a new account (violation of TL rules), solely to start arguments and not to discuss the actual case. in his 40+ posts here he hasn't done anything but egg people on and post the same thing over and over. he is clearly and blatently a troll at worst, and at best in violation of TL policy. I have not seen anything to contradict the eyewitness who saw Zimmerman on the ground shouting for help while being struck in the head by Trayvon. That still doesn't mean shit. How does that let you conclude that he started the fight? Because he was winning it? He started it? Maybe the simple act of chasing someone through other peoples backyards at night might provoke them to attack you.
It's a gated community with rules & standards
|
On March 23 2012 12:41 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:21 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 12:20 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 12:01 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 11:52 dp wrote:On March 23 2012 11:45 Zaqwe wrote:
What do you feel is unreasonable about what I have posted?
I don't see how Trayvon dying when he attacked someone changes what he did. That is bizarre and goes way beyond respect for the dead.
It's sad, but please be rational. Throwing out all logic and justice because someone died is not productive. I think he takes issue with you saying Trayvon attacked him without any evidence to support it. Having the upper hand during a fight does not equate starting it. As well, your eyewitness is not the only one, and conflicting accounts are out there, so claiming a superior stance on the issue because of it is annoying I would assume. Indeed. Thank you. There is the account of Zimmerman himself, who says he was attacked. What reason is there to think he is lying? He is of good character and known by his neighbors, has prevented crimes before and stopped criminals, and was the first person to phone police that night. His story of what happened after being attacked is consistent with witness accounts. A witness saw Zimmerman screaming for help and being beaten while laying on his back, so there is again no reason to doubt Zimmerman. Your claim that Trayvon could have been attacked first is a possible scenario but unlikely given the circumstances. Furthermore the autopsy would have shown wounds on Trayvon from an assault. People are so quick to condemn Zimmerman when all available evidence suggests he is innocent. didnt he originally say he was attacked right after he got out of his vehicle? that seems inconsistent with the 911 calls and the fact that the confrontation took place after he walked some distance and in someone's yard apparently. I am trying to find some things about this but maybe you can help me and just give some nice links and excerpts to make it easy. I haven't noticed any contradictions or lies in what Zimmerman has said.
okay i found conflicting articles.
one says this, which was in the police's letter to the public:
"Zimmerman's statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon."
the other said this:
"Zimmerman claims he was attacked from behind after leaving his vehicle."
http://www.bob-owens.com/2012/03/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-wont-keep-george-zimmerman-out-of-prison-for-killing-trayvon-martin-shoddy-policework-might/
the girlfriend claimed either would be inconsistent because she was talking with him on the phone immediately before the confrontation:
This is inconsistent with the pursuit as described by Martin’s girlfriend, who made it clear that Martin was trying to evade Zimmerman, and Zimmerman was the aggressor before the call ended.
http://www.bob-owens.com/2012/03/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-wont-keep-george-zimmerman-out-of-prison-for-killing-trayvon-martin-shoddy-policework-might/
so, everything is inconsistent..... lol....
|
On March 23 2012 12:52 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:49 Ryder. wrote:On March 23 2012 12:32 dp wrote:On March 23 2012 12:30 rouzga wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 23 2012 12:23 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:21 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 11:36 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 11:33 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 10:17 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 23 2012 10:16 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 10:06 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 09:51 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 23 2012 09:41 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 23 2012 09:39 Fyrewolf wrote:
[quote]
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion. There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground. You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone. You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet. Unless, of course, you do not want to use the gun and were only carrying it as a last resort to protect your life. Amazing how you are unwilling to view things from any perspective other than Zimmerman being an inhuman monster who wanted to protect his neighbors because... because he's such an inhuman monster... or something. From reports are inconsistent, details are unknown, details are unknown again, lots of speculation going on in the thread, and we can't tell what happened yet, and from that you conclude that I must automatically despise someone and am not open to any other viewpoints. That's just silly. he made his account just to say whatever he feels like in this thread. he will just troll people all day. + Show Spoiler +Are you sure you want to lose your credibility for someone how just turns other people's word around and states lies as if they were facts?
Just the posts of 2 pages from this guy:
I do not know of any jurisdiction where self defense enables you to knock down and beat on people laying supine if they question what you are doing.
I don't see how anything Zimmerman did justified making a preemptive attack on him. Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down and screaming for help makes it even harder to justify.
Trayvon didn't do anything wrong until he decided to knock someone to the ground and pummel them in the head. At that point he stopped being innocent.
I suppose he took the pistol with him just in case he got knocked to the ground and beaten in the head while nobody came to his aid.
Unless, of course, you do not want to use the gun and were only carrying it as a last resort to protect your life.
Well at least the media does. They are treating Zimmerman as though he were White for the sake of stirring up racial controversy (and thus ratings), when in reality he is a mixed race Hispanic.
It's sad and unfortunate the way things played out, but the wrong action was when Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on.
I don't understand guys like him, all patriotism aside, who just want to stir things up, and it's bad the mods don't ban him, but defending such a person, who even puts the blame on the DEAD victim without reading what he says is just awful . however misguided he may be. at least he provides support for what he is saying. you dont just ban people who have different opinions from you. Did you read my post? You know that he "provides" this support by just making up lies? "Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on" Does he have any evidence for this? "Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down and screaming for help" Same here. Etc. He is just constructing his own story around his point of view without evidence although he claims that noone else has evidence for their side of the story. I'm not saying either side is right/wrong or guilty/not guilty UNTIL proven. But to prove this they have to ask further questions. What you are doing is listening to some fanatic patriotistic defender of this right. He would bend any argument or lie until it fits his side of the story. That's not providing anything im going to preempt his post. he is basing it on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322664¤tpage=46#920 I did read all of the posts. Being the one on the ground holding someone down who tried to put a gun on your head doesn't make you someone who is doing a "preemptive assault" or "beat him in the head when he was already knocked down" You see where this leads to? And in your previous post I see that you already recognize the inconsistence in this guy's posts "didnt he originally say he was attacked right after he got out of his vehicle? that seems inconsistent with the 911 calls and the fact that the confrontation took place after he walked some distance and in someone's yard apparently." There is no evidence yet to suggest that Zimmerman took out his weapon at any point before when he used it. Should all try to keep things factual based with our opinion on those facts. There is also no evidence that Trayvon started the fight, yet lots of people seem to assume this despite the fact it was confirmed he originally decided to flee when he started being chased by someone weighing almost 100lb more than him. Saw a post earlier that said this It's sad and unfortunate the way things played out, but the wrong action was when Trayvon decided to commit a preemptive assault instead of continuing to walk away or just talking to Zimmerman to see what was going on . I find it absolutely laughable that somebody actually expects a 17 year old kid, being chased by an older male significantly heavier than he is during the dead of the night to just stop and have a conversation with the bloke lol. You would need to have literally no survival instincts if when being pursued by someone older and stronger than you (with a gun) your choice of action is to just stand there and hope the guy wants a conversation. You're assuming Trayvon knew Zimmerman was armed. I think that is highly unlikely, as the subsequent fight would have been a wrestling match for the gun instead of a pummeling of the face with no attention paid to the gun that shot him. And do you really think had Trayvon run away that this 250 lb man could have caught up to this 17 yr old football player ? I doubt it. It's safe to say Trayvon didn't know about the gun until it was too late.
Regardless of whether or not he knew about the gun, it doesn't change the fact he would still be shit scared and not about to hang around for a conversation. And how do you know he wasn't cornered when they engaged in a fight? I'm sure he could have outran Zimmerman. I find it much more likely Trayvon got cornered as he was fleeing, as opposed to people suggesting that he bolted cause he was scared (this is fact, he initially decided to flee), got away, then thought 'fuck it', changed his mind, went back and started a fight.
|
On March 23 2012 12:57 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:55 Bill Murray wrote:
^that is also a good point.
If he was running away, the trajectory of the bullet wouldn't have entered into the front of his chest. zimmerman was found straddling martin holding a gun, just after a gunshot was heard. it's clear he had martin pinned down and shot him. also zimmerman chased him in a truck.
How did he catch him, then?
How come I have seen that it has only said vice versa, except for police correcting a witness, who had a Freudian slip
|
On March 23 2012 12:56 rouzga wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:47 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 12:43 rouzga wrote:On March 23 2012 12:36 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 12:30 rouzga wrote:
holding someone down who tried to put a gun on your head
What? Where are you getting this crazy shit from? You are just writing fan fiction at this point. There is no reason to believe the gun was drawn at all, at any point, up until the very moment of the shooting. If the gun was out before Trayvon attacked he would be struggling for the gun, not punching Zimmerman in the face and leaving his hands free while he holds a gun in them. This has become completely insane. Please take a step back from your fantasy delusions and look at the facts. The facts you are making up? You should quote the whole post or at least read it instead of calling people crazy shit. I tried to base my argument on the same evidence you do. Fiction. I have based my argument purely on the available eyewitness testimony. Where have I made anything up? Read my post or PM me, there is NO sign of a "preemptive assault" or that he was ´"Continuing to beat him in the head when he was already knocked down" He was on the ground. The rest is you imagination"
No evidence of a preemptive assault.
Yes there was a witness that stated Trayvon was continuing to beat Zimmermann in the head while he was already knocked down with Trayvon mounted on top of Zimmermann.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
