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On September 09 2011 10:47 xlava wrote:
I don't know why these threads keep flaring up, but let me tell you something as a Master Protoss. Removing warpgate from the race would break us completely. You should say goodbye to any of our timings, because our ONLY and I repeat: ONLY offensive abilities early game come from forcefields, and our TIMELY reinforcements.
Making any more changes to the offensive capabilities of Protoss warpins would break not only PvP and the entire dynamic of the matchup, but also neuter us offensively versus all the races. There is a reason why Terrans don't really reinforce when doing something like a 2 medivac timing, because if they could reinforce instantly, their cost effectiveness would spiral COMPLETELY out of control. Theres a reason Zerg don't get warpins, because the race uses the larvae mechanic and creep spread for almost instantaneous reinforcement anyway.
If Protoss was to be nerfed in this fashion it would render 3 gate pressure and 4 gate rushes nonviable. As well as timings such as the 5 gate pressure off 2 bases versus Zerg as well as the 6gate. Any kind of early game pressure would be impossible. Essentially what I'm getting at is that ANY change to the offensive capabilities of Protoss would mean a completely disastrous metagame shift, we would be come the turtle race, because we were forced to, and we simply do not have the units and structures to do so.
The fact that the gateway is useless after warpgate is researched isn't a design flaw. Its the way our race works. You can't compare apples and oranges, every race is different, and I am absolutely STUNNED that posts like this are surfacing (and flourishing) in a time when Protoss is doing terribly.
All in all, nerfing warpgate and thereby Protoss is not the answer. There is nothing wrong with the mechanic, as it is a staple of the mechanics of our race. I would love to hear more specific criticism as to why it is actually overpowered (like what rush, for example). In my opinion, it is the only thing that makes Protoss even close to balanced.
Also a quick note: I say "remove" in the first part of this post. Let me clarify that. ANY change. I say again. ANY nerf to the warpgate mechanic will render the fragile Protoss early game units and timings impossible to use and execute, respectively. Warpgate doesn't have to be removed to destroy our race, it just has to be nerfed to destroy our race.
QFT
I can't believe what it is that is popular in the Starcraft 2 forums.PvP can't be imbalanced and expansions are more likely, PvZ and PvT need some figuring out but they're definitely not impossible.
So it can't really be imbalance. At least, I think.
The problem is that everyone likes to whine all day about SC2. GSL isnt good enough NASL doesnt give advantages to #1 spot MLG incontrol is still in pool play ETC,
Everyone needs to relax.
Blizzard did a fine job balancing the races and I want to see a substantial example that shows how warpgates directly lose the game for protoss because of the way they work.
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On September 09 2011 11:39 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 10:47 xlava wrote:
I don't know why these threads keep flaring up, but let me tell you something as a Master Protoss. Removing warpgate from the race would break us completely. You should say goodbye to any of our timings, because our ONLY and I repeat: ONLY offensive abilities early game come from forcefields, and our TIMELY reinforcements.
Making any more changes to the offensive capabilities of Protoss warpins would break not only PvP and the entire dynamic of the matchup, but also neuter us offensively versus all the races. There is a reason why Terrans don't really reinforce when doing something like a 2 medivac timing, because if they could reinforce instantly, their cost effectiveness would spiral COMPLETELY out of control. Theres a reason Zerg don't get warpins, because the race uses the larvae mechanic and creep spread for almost instantaneous reinforcement anyway.
If Protoss was to be nerfed in this fashion it would render 3 gate pressure and 4 gate rushes nonviable. As well as timings such as the 5 gate pressure off 2 bases versus Zerg as well as the 6gate. Any kind of early game pressure would be impossible. Essentially what I'm getting at is that ANY change to the offensive capabilities of Protoss would mean a completely disastrous metagame shift, we would be come the turtle race, because we were forced to, and we simply do not have the units and structures to do so.
The fact that the gateway is useless after warpgate is researched isn't a design flaw. Its the way our race works. You can't compare apples and oranges, every race is different, and I am absolutely STUNNED that posts like this are surfacing (and flourishing) in a time when Protoss is doing terribly.
All in all, nerfing warpgate and thereby Protoss is not the answer. There is nothing wrong with the mechanic, as it is a staple of the mechanics of our race. I would love to hear more specific criticism as to why it is actually overpowered (like what rush, for example). In my opinion, it is the only thing that makes Protoss even close to balanced.
Also a quick note: I say "remove" in the first part of this post. Let me clarify that. ANY change. I say again. ANY nerf to the warpgate mechanic will render the fragile Protoss early game units and timings impossible to use and execute, respectively. Warpgate doesn't have to be removed to destroy our race, it just has to be nerfed to destroy our race. QFT I can't believe what it is that is popular in the Starcraft 2 forums.PvP can't be imbalanced and expansions are more likely, PvZ and PvT need some figuring out but they're definitely not impossible. So it can't really be imbalance. At least, I think. The problem is that everyone likes to whine all day about SC2. GSL isnt good enough NASL doesnt give advantages to #1 spot MLG incontrol is still in pool play ETC, Everyone needs to relax. Blizzard did a fine job balancing the races and I want to see a substantial example that shows how warpgates directly lose the game for protoss because of the way they work.
You miss the point. This is not about how good Protoss is. It is about how well WG was designed. Read OP Pl0x
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I actually read the whole thing, good post by OP. I like the idea about the warpgates and gateways switch. I also thought gateways should have some kind of advantage when compared to warpgates. This would open up new plays for protoss. For example, players who would use gateways will be able to produce units quickly while warpgates are more for mobility.
Blizzard can actually play around with this idea though of course it will take some time and a lot of testing. Warpgates doesn't need to be changed but at least give a player some reason to use gateways instead of warpgates.
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On September 09 2011 11:39 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 10:47 xlava wrote:
I don't know why these threads keep flaring up, but let me tell you something as a Master Protoss. Removing warpgate from the race would break us completely. You should say goodbye to any of our timings, because our ONLY and I repeat: ONLY offensive abilities early game come from forcefields, and our TIMELY reinforcements.
Making any more changes to the offensive capabilities of Protoss warpins would break not only PvP and the entire dynamic of the matchup, but also neuter us offensively versus all the races. There is a reason why Terrans don't really reinforce when doing something like a 2 medivac timing, because if they could reinforce instantly, their cost effectiveness would spiral COMPLETELY out of control. Theres a reason Zerg don't get warpins, because the race uses the larvae mechanic and creep spread for almost instantaneous reinforcement anyway.
If Protoss was to be nerfed in this fashion it would render 3 gate pressure and 4 gate rushes nonviable. As well as timings such as the 5 gate pressure off 2 bases versus Zerg as well as the 6gate. Any kind of early game pressure would be impossible. Essentially what I'm getting at is that ANY change to the offensive capabilities of Protoss would mean a completely disastrous metagame shift, we would be come the turtle race, because we were forced to, and we simply do not have the units and structures to do so.
The fact that the gateway is useless after warpgate is researched isn't a design flaw. Its the way our race works. You can't compare apples and oranges, every race is different, and I am absolutely STUNNED that posts like this are surfacing (and flourishing) in a time when Protoss is doing terribly.
All in all, nerfing warpgate and thereby Protoss is not the answer. There is nothing wrong with the mechanic, as it is a staple of the mechanics of our race. I would love to hear more specific criticism as to why it is actually overpowered (like what rush, for example). In my opinion, it is the only thing that makes Protoss even close to balanced.
Also a quick note: I say "remove" in the first part of this post. Let me clarify that. ANY change. I say again. ANY nerf to the warpgate mechanic will render the fragile Protoss early game units and timings impossible to use and execute, respectively. Warpgate doesn't have to be removed to destroy our race, it just has to be nerfed to destroy our race. QFT I can't believe what it is that is popular in the Starcraft 2 forums.PvP can't be imbalanced and expansions are more likely, PvZ and PvT need some figuring out but they're definitely not impossible. So it can't really be imbalance. At least, I think. The problem is that everyone likes to whine all day about SC2. GSL isnt good enough NASL doesnt give advantages to #1 spot MLG incontrol is still in pool play ETC, Everyone needs to relax. Blizzard did a fine job balancing the races and I want to see a substantial example that shows how warpgates directly lose the game for protoss because of the way they work.
Posts like this one show how ingrained the mindset of balance is in these forums. I dont intend to be rude, or call you out, but the quick, hotheaded responses that you and others have made (that seem to make clear that someone either didn't read the original post, or misread it) only indicates that people have been deluded into thinking that balance is the only important thing to consider when thinking about this game.
Yes, balance is important. No, it is not of paramount importance: I would argue that design influences balance. If there were 2 Blizzards, one in a parallel universe, with the same quality of resources and time etc, we might see two completely different SC2s, but both fairly decently balanced. One might be more fun to play, more deep and rich strategically and mechanically. That is what Blizzard ought to strive for.
They have given themselves 2 "pit stops:" two expansions at which they can assess their car, hop out, change the tires, put in some new gas and change the oil. Lets hope they make these changes where they are needed.
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I think the only thing wrong is that there should be a reason why you should use Warpgates and Gateways. For example Gateways should be for better defense and Warpgates for better offence that is how they should be designed but, sadly it is not. how they are used is that Gateways are for proxies and 1st to 2nd unit at the start of the game and Warpgates are for everything else (defense and offence). I think that Gateway unit should get a buff of building 5 seconds faster or warpgates cooldown should be 5 seconds longer.
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This thread is a waste of space on the front page....
WG needs some work but this post is horrible...
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On September 09 2011 11:50 Rorschach wrote:
This thread is a waste of space on the front page....
WG needs some work but this post is horrible...
Given that I like the OP's idea ALOT and would just like him to answer my post with his thoughts (PLZ OPPP), what makes you say this??
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On September 09 2011 10:47 xlava wrote:
I don't know why these threads keep flaring up, but let me tell you something as a Master Protoss. Removing warpgate from the race would break us completely. You should say goodbye to any of our timings, because our ONLY and I repeat: ONLY offensive abilities early game come from forcefields, and our TIMELY reinforcements.
Making any more changes to the offensive capabilities of Protoss warpins would break not only PvP and the entire dynamic of the matchup, but also neuter us offensively versus all the races. There is a reason why Terrans don't really reinforce when doing something like a 2 medivac timing, because if they could reinforce instantly, their cost effectiveness would spiral COMPLETELY out of control. Theres a reason Zerg don't get warpins, because the race uses the larvae mechanic and creep spread for almost instantaneous reinforcement anyway.
If Protoss was to be nerfed in this fashion it would render 3 gate pressure and 4 gate rushes nonviable. As well as timings such as the 5 gate pressure off 2 bases versus Zerg as well as the 6gate. Any kind of early game pressure would be impossible. Essentially what I'm getting at is that ANY change to the offensive capabilities of Protoss would mean a completely disastrous metagame shift, we would be come the turtle race, because we were forced to, and we simply do not have the units and structures to do so.
The fact that the gateway is useless after warpgate is researched isn't a design flaw. Its the way our race works. You can't compare apples and oranges, every race is different, and I am absolutely STUNNED that posts like this are surfacing (and flourishing) in a time when Protoss is doing terribly.
All in all, nerfing warpgate and thereby Protoss is not the answer. There is nothing wrong with the mechanic, as it is a staple of the mechanics of our race. I would love to hear more specific criticism as to why it is actually overpowered (like what rush, for example). In my opinion, it is the only thing that makes Protoss even close to balanced.
Also a quick note: I say "remove" in the first part of this post. Let me clarify that. ANY change. I say again. ANY nerf to the warpgate mechanic will render the fragile Protoss early game units and timings impossible to use and execute, respectively. Warpgate doesn't have to be removed to destroy our race, it just has to be nerfed to destroy our race.
My friend, you clearly have not read properly what the OP said. At no point did the OP suggests 'removing' or 'nerfing' the warpgate or protoss. In fact, his disagreement with this standpoint is vivid in the conclusion:
The problems with Warpgate are many and far-reaching and I think that the OP’s article does a great job of explaining some of them. The real question is if blizzard addresses the real issue, and if they do, how they ultimately go about doing it. I am arguing for a solution that elegantly fixes the real problem instead of aggressively patching the perceived problem and causing damage to the rest of the game as a result. It doesn’t surprise me that the 1-1-1 came to prominence after the warpgate nerf: a clear example of a seemingly disastrous and unforeseen effect of one single change. Consider the numerous patches and all the other unintended changes introduced with each patch note.
He is against nerfs to the warpgate, but voicing problems that may warrant redesign. I think it would be good to understand the article properly first before crticising it
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I'm beside myself reading suggestions to nerf protoss while they are currently getting steamrolled in competitive play and high level ladder. If you took out WG, you'd HAVE to buff zeal/stalks and it would drastically change P's gameplay. Then a I'm sure we'd get another long-winded thread about how toss early units are too strong and Blizzard didn't think it through when they removed WG.
Really confusing thread.
Maybe you guys are frustrated because you aren't able to scout for pylons properly. Are you seeing a lot of OP pushes from P's in high-level play that only work because of forward pylons? Have you asked yourself if the pylon had been denied, would the push have worked? Would the P have lost? Are you now considering how risky big pylon-dependent pushes are? Have you also considered how hard it is for toss to come back from failed early-pushes?
Yea, maybe warp would be OP if pylons had like 400 hp and the range was longer or didnt need highground vision but as is i have no idea where you're getting the problem from. Link some high-level games where WG appears OP in non-mirror matches and then maybe we can discuss it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 09 2011 10:47 xlava wrote:
I don't know why these threads keep flaring up, but let me tell you something as a Master Protoss. Removing warpgate from the race would break us completely. You should say goodbye to any of our timings, because our ONLY and I repeat: ONLY offensive abilities early game come from forcefields, and our TIMELY reinforcements.
Making any more changes to the offensive capabilities of Protoss warpins would break not only PvP and the entire dynamic of the matchup, but also neuter us offensively versus all the races. There is a reason why Terrans don't really reinforce when doing something like a 2 medivac timing, because if they could reinforce instantly, their cost effectiveness would spiral COMPLETELY out of control. Theres a reason Zerg don't get warpins, because the race uses the larvae mechanic and creep spread for almost instantaneous reinforcement anyway.
If Protoss was to be nerfed in this fashion it would render 3 gate pressure and 4 gate rushes nonviable. As well as timings such as the 5 gate pressure off 2 bases versus Zerg as well as the 6gate. Any kind of early game pressure would be impossible. Essentially what I'm getting at is that ANY change to the offensive capabilities of Protoss would mean a completely disastrous metagame shift, we would be come the turtle race, because we were forced to, and we simply do not have the units and structures to do so.
The fact that the gateway is useless after warpgate is researched isn't a design flaw. Its the way our race works. You can't compare apples and oranges, every race is different, and I am absolutely STUNNED that posts like this are surfacing (and flourishing) in a time when Protoss is doing terribly.
All in all, nerfing warpgate and thereby Protoss is not the answer. There is nothing wrong with the mechanic, as it is a staple of the mechanics of our race. I would love to hear more specific criticism as to why it is actually overpowered (like what rush, for example). In my opinion, it is the only thing that makes Protoss even close to balanced.
Also a quick note: I say "remove" in the first part of this post. Let me clarify that. ANY change. I say again. ANY nerf to the warpgate mechanic will render the fragile Protoss early game units and timings impossible to use and execute, respectively. Warpgate doesn't have to be removed to destroy our race, it just has to be nerfed to destroy our race.
So you are saying you were able to read the OP and then respond in the fashion you did in a grand total of 8 minutes? Seems like you are missing the point...
Well mapped out, I do somewhat see the problem you are implying but True Balance...just a myth : |
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On September 09 2011 10:39 Knee_of_Justice wrote:
b) Allow the switch from warpgates to gateways and vice-versa to be chrono-boosted, providing an opportunity for a player to differentiate his strategy based on his expenditure of chronoboosts. This will also add a useful element late-game.
FWIW chronoboost does speed up the switch to and from warp gate. In the past it was actually more efficient to warp-in high templars switch to gateways and build a zealot then switch back and warp-in again as the warp-gate cooldown still ticked while in gateway form. They patched this out obviously intending the warpgate transformation to be a one way street for whatever reason.
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The warpgate mechanic is flawed and it ought to be fixed. More specifically, it ought to have been fixed in alpha, or at least beta, had blizzard been doing their job properly. But it was not. I don't want that to sound like I'm blaming them, but I do want to put the point on the table: blizzard did not think this one through very well.
Now we are in a situation where people dont really know what the process will be: do they patch it directly? Patch many things all at once? Patch something that counters it? Wait until an expansion to seriously rework it?
Whatever the situation turns out to be, I will suggest what I think are beneficial changes because I value constructive criticism, but first I would like to address some points that I see tossed around too much and with too little thought.
This portion is supposed to describe why it's broken. Instead you just state simply that it is and go on to ramble about who's fault it is or isn't and a long transition into the next topic.
Can you please just fucking say what is broken about it? Nowhere do you lay this out in plain terms. Were you alluding to it being different than the other races and therefore poor-design/unbalanced?
WTF is going on
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On September 09 2011 12:02 NewteN wrote:Show nested quote +The warpgate mechanic is flawed and it ought to be fixed. More specifically, it ought to have been fixed in alpha, or at least beta, had blizzard been doing their job properly. But it was not. I don't want that to sound like I'm blaming them, but I do want to put the point on the table: blizzard did not think this one through very well.
Now we are in a situation where people dont really know what the process will be: do they patch it directly? Patch many things all at once? Patch something that counters it? Wait until an expansion to seriously rework it?
Whatever the situation turns out to be, I will suggest what I think are beneficial changes because I value constructive criticism, but first I would like to address some points that I see tossed around too much and with too little thought. This portion is supposed to describe why it's broken. Instead you just state simply that it is and go on to ramble about who's fault it is or isn't and a long transition into the next topic. Can you please just fucking say what is broken about it? Nowhere do you lay this out in plain terms. Were you alluding to it being different than the other races and therefore poor-design/unbalanced? WTF is going on
It's pretty obviously a continuation of the thread he linked at the start of his post which does just that.
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On September 09 2011 12:03 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 12:02 NewteN wrote:The warpgate mechanic is flawed and it ought to be fixed. More specifically, it ought to have been fixed in alpha, or at least beta, had blizzard been doing their job properly. But it was not. I don't want that to sound like I'm blaming them, but I do want to put the point on the table: blizzard did not think this one through very well.
Now we are in a situation where people dont really know what the process will be: do they patch it directly? Patch many things all at once? Patch something that counters it? Wait until an expansion to seriously rework it?
Whatever the situation turns out to be, I will suggest what I think are beneficial changes because I value constructive criticism, but first I would like to address some points that I see tossed around too much and with too little thought. This portion is supposed to describe why it's broken. Instead you just state simply that it is and go on to ramble about who's fault it is or isn't and a long transition into the next topic. Can you please just fucking say what is broken about it? Nowhere do you lay this out in plain terms. Were you alluding to it being different than the other races and therefore poor-design/unbalanced? WTF is going on It's pretty obviously a continuation of the thread he linked at the start of his post which does just that.
So instead of restating the original thread's conclusion simply and then giving some un-seen prospective and addition information we essentially get something totally meaningless unless you read both novels? Is this OP producing some sort of insight that hasn't been introduced in the original thread addressing this 'problem'?
Holy shit.
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Warpgates are so integral to Protoss play that at this point messing with it would simply kill the race as a whole.
That said, warpgates were a terrible idea. Who thought it would be okay to put this into multiplayer? It's stupidly difficult to balance and feels out of place in Protoss lore.
The fact that they made it possible to switch back and forth from Warpgate to Gateway, instead of making the upgrade simply change all Gateways into Warpgates, convinces me this idea wasn't thought completely through.
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On September 09 2011 11:32 ImmortalTofu wrote:
The problem is... I love the solution that you are giving... Gateway/warpgate would open up a whole new WORLD of possibilities and new things to figure out for Protoss.... However, the flaw in this is that Protoss will be so far behind the other races in terms of understanding their race, and so most likely until HotS where all the races have to restart or heavily tweak their knowledge of the game, Protoss will not be competitive. (Off topic, but I'm kinda scared for HotS, because I don't want to see a whole new lineup of pros take the top spots, but back to the topic).
Additionally, Gateway units still have the underlying problem of being too weak to have to account for WG... Timing pushes with 4 gate would be nigh impossible to stop if they were buffed to account for the Hybrid WG/gate play (because of the fact that 4 gate relies on that burst of production, not on continued production), but at the same time, not buffing them at all still puts us at the perennial Ghost/Viking V Protoss Splash stalemate that Protoss always seems to be on the losing end of.
TO address the "non-balance discussion" thing. Blizzard balances this game mainly because it wants it to be successful as an Esport (and keep player base, but that is less big here). If one race suddenly became extinct at the top levels of play because of this (Imo brilliant) design change, the esport would decline by so much. Additionally, they would lose playerbase, as dedicated Protoss player watched their league drop and quit. Blizzard gains nothing from changing game design until AT LEAST HotS if not LotV, and so unless we can think of a way that changes design without demolishing metagame, and making us stronger (at first) as we learn the new changes, Blizzard has no reason (and the esport has no motivation) to make a change.
Yes, that is a good point, about being behind in terms of understanding their race. We have to assume that any radical changes (which I personally think are rather unlikely) would not be thrown into the game without careful testing, first in Blizzard's design meetings, then in a type of Beta or PTR, finally culminating in release. There will be a moderate version of this problem anyways, with the expansions, as you said, but I am inclined to favor long term development over short term tournament successes. Obviously, an ideal situation would be no balance changes, only metagame shifts.
Gateway unit strength is a very important thing to consider when making any changes. Very generally, I think that some protoss lategame strength should be redistributed towards gateway units. If you want my (uninformed, non-terran) opinion of terran, i think that some MM power should be redistributed to make mech more viable. Protoss has the tools for success, I think, but it needs to be carefully redesigned and rebalanced, Ex: vikings are good against colossi, warp prism/HT and Carriers.
The thing with your last point is, I dont think that Blizzard is making any effort towards using individual balance changes to gradually implement a grander vision, shifting balance and design slowly rather than monumentally. They are just fixing things that are a perceived problem now.
Think of renovating a house: you dont just rip up the foundations and start from scratch, you carefully do the roof and exterior, then move inside and take out the (non-weight bearing) walls etc etc. It is a gradual process and the structural integrity of the whole is at no point in danger. But changes are being made. The residents will experience discomfort, not only during the building phase, but afterwards too. However, in the long run, the result is worth it.
Blizzard is just fixing the roof when it leaks, which leads to a patchwork of fixes instead of the unified changes that we should want.
You have good points. My response is a very general: "long term over short term" and "gradual over abrupt, where possible." Hope you find that useful.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On September 09 2011 10:58 monitor wrote:
I am also shocked that the Warpgate is faster at producing units than the Gateway and it can warp in, so there is no reason to have a gateway. That's just bad design- they might as well remove gateways and balance the game from that.
In my opinion, they need to make the Gateway have faster build times than warpgates (maybe by like 5-10 seconds) so that gateways are better but can't be used for harass or reinforcements, thus creating a much more interesting dynamic. They might need to do some adjustments to balance early game then, but I doubt it would be a whole lot.
I think people are forgetting something...
With the original 40 second warpgate timing nerf, before blizzard lowered it to 20 seconds, they made zealots and stalkers build 5-10 seconds faster from non-warpgates as compensation. The result was protoss going 15 nexus vs both zerg AND terran and being completely safe from everything in the game, even 6pool/proxy, from what i heard from the ptr forums. The change was reverted in mere hours.
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On September 09 2011 12:02 NewteN wrote:Show nested quote +The warpgate mechanic is flawed and it ought to be fixed. More specifically, it ought to have been fixed in alpha, or at least beta, had blizzard been doing their job properly. But it was not. I don't want that to sound like I'm blaming them, but I do want to put the point on the table: blizzard did not think this one through very well.
Now we are in a situation where people dont really know what the process will be: do they patch it directly? Patch many things all at once? Patch something that counters it? Wait until an expansion to seriously rework it?
Whatever the situation turns out to be, I will suggest what I think are beneficial changes because I value constructive criticism, but first I would like to address some points that I see tossed around too much and with too little thought. This portion is supposed to describe why it's broken. Instead you just state simply that it is and go on to ramble about who's fault it is or isn't and a long transition into the next topic. Can you please just fucking say what is broken about it? Nowhere do you lay this out in plain terms. Were you alluding to it being different than the other races and therefore poor-design/unbalanced? WTF is going on
This, seriously and please OP if you are going to question the design of the game state your credentials. basically the OP boils down to:
"Hey, I don't like the WG mechanic, I think its badly designed. I will say that it was badly designed and poorly tested even though I don't have any proof beside it not being fixed because I think its badly designed. Some guys have presented a fix, I think its inelegant so... here is my fix"
And seriously, your fix is seriously more inelegant, badly designed(Hey, lets make a relatively simple mechanic into something complicated, that is good design right? Complicating stuff?)
Seriously, if you don't like the WG mechanic say it. Don't try to hide behind big words and long OPs that hide your lack of analysis. You don't provide a reasoning of why it is badly designed. If your proof of bad design is that protoss are doing badly you are just trying to boil down something pretty complex with many factors just to one.
Sorry if I come off as hostile, I am just tired of people endlessly complaining about stuff all day long and basically something pointless. If you think you can do a good suggestion e mail it to blizzard, or post it on their official forums, Or ask a job there, seriously the game is out, warpgate won't be changed radically until the expansion(if they change it at all).
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Edit: nvm I see it!
I agree with one thing: There should be a reason to use gateways. Whether it's simply a reason to wait to get warp a little later than the instant your core goes down, or a strategy which benefits from not even researching at all, it would be good.
Where I don't agree with you is where you think that the design of warpgates is inherently broken. There is no reason this mechanic cannot be balanced appropriately through cost, research time (which blizzard has already adjusted), implementation restrictions (reduced range on pylons) and the balance of gateway units to be warped in.
Also, I see no reason why protoss can't be balanced offensively (instant reinforcement) if zerg is going to be balanced defensively (mass units on demand).
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On September 09 2011 11:01 xlava wrote:I'm not re-reading it for a reason, sir. My point is in the bold. I am saying that any change, and honestly I don't care what it is, will remove a huge amount of utility from Protoss... Warpgate is a staple of the race. I and no other Protoss wants it removed. The design is genius and very well designed. I don't want to take a chance with any change that could potentially screw up warpgate. Please, if you don't think its overpowered, why do you think its badly designed? Because in most people's minds "badly designed" equivocates to either OP or UP. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 10:58 monitor wrote:
I am also shocked that the Warpgate is faster at producing units than the Gateway and it can warp in, so there is no reason to have a gateway. That's just bad design- they might as well remove gateways and balance the game from that.
In my opinion, they need to make the Gateway have faster build times than warpgates (maybe by like 5-10 seconds) so that gateways are better but can't be used for harass or reinforcements, thus creating a much more interesting dynamic. They might need to do some adjustments to balance early game then, but I doubt it would be a whole lot. What??? Warpgates produce in the same amount of time, roughly, as every other races' main production structures. Are you kidding me??? A more interesting dynamic? You're saying that standard reinforcements is "more dynamic" than warping units into the fray? :O seriously? Can we please get some high level Protoss in here so that I'm not defending the entire race's sanctity by myself?
You're talking about balance, which is mostly the tweaking of numbers. The OP is talking about design, which is how the races work and how their mechanics are put together.
The design is genius , please do elaborate, we would all be very interested in your thoughts.
I and no other protoss wants it removed, I don't know where you read this, but this is nowhere mentioned. Also you cannot represent the wishes of every protoss.
in most people's minds "badly designed" equivocates to either OP or UP. Please do not attempt to represent any other person than yourself. Badly designed does not, in anyway, mean OP or UP.
You don't seem to see how warp gates are badly designed, I'll attempt to explain it to you:
1. Gateways weren't meant to exist in SC2, the only reason they do is because if warp gates are available right away P would be OP. This makes gateways obsolete past the 5 min mark (something like that). You know this is bad design if you also imagine that marines become completely useless past the 7 min mark in every game.
2. Warp gates are strong at reinforcing, which makes weak gateway units necessary, especially the stalker. Compared to the dragoon, it has much less hp and less damage. Sentries are good, but only with the help of multiple sentries can P hold off pushes from Z and T. Protoss heavily dependent on one unit = less options = bad design. Take a look at the bajillion openings T has.
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EPT
