I think when more refined this could be pretty lethal and maybe a viable timing attack. I think that there should be a set number of queens and broodlords that you have in mind with a roach warren and roach speed upgraded for when you push out. This way while the attack is commencing you can either take a 3rd (and probably a 4th) and mass up on roaches to cover any counter attacks.

The problem I could see is if Toss or Terran is doing a timing or has just build up a strong amount of units, sees your attack, and instantly counters not leaving you enough to build up any defenses. In this situation its time to play hide the expansion and hope you can out micro and get to all your opponents structures before they take out your limited amount.

Jermstuddog

United States2231 Posts

July 27 2011 18:58 GMT

#22

For pretty much the reasons Cecil mentioned, I don't like this in ZvP.

In ZvT however, I prefer Broodlords over Infestors. And since most of my gas is dumped in the BL, Queens are a natural compliment. Only AFTER I get a sizable BL/Queen army will I double-back and get my infestors out. The initial push feels a lot stronger than the standard BL/infestor pushes everybody else is doing.

In ZvZ, I will do the standard roach/infestor ball, but I tend to hover around 180 supply rather than going full up to 200 so that when I get to hive tech, I can transition into a BL/Corruptor/Queen/Infestor/Roach/Ling/Kitchen-Sink composition. It works rather nicely.

I lost my replay archive when I upgraded my PC, but if I come across any late-game ZvTs or ZvZs this week, I'll give some replays of mid-high master play to support OPs topic.

As far as the timings though... it really deepends what your opponent is doing. If he's going mech as terran, or just being too passive as Zerg, you're fine to rush for this comp on 2-base.

If he's being aggressive at all though, you need to have some sort of mid-game plan. In ZvT, I most-often end up getting this comp on 3-5 bases. ZvZ is 2-4.

ShadowHunter95

United States19 Posts

July 27 2011 19:34 GMT

#23

Definitely an interesting build. I may give this a try soon!

Severus_

759 Posts

July 27 2011 19:39 GMT

#24

I can only have opinoin about TvZ so here it is:
I think this will not work vs good opponent i can see mass drops beeing a problem,any mech play like hellion,ghost,thor(emp+shift click on hellions on thors) and even your things are so slow that i think its possible to nuke them offcreap lulz.

iBRomano

Canada23 Posts

July 27 2011 19:58 GMT

#25

This seems easily scoutable with a single observer for P, and a decently quick transition into getting some High Templars would decimate your queens. I haven't watched the replays yet, and it seems quite interesting, but I'm just pointing out that Feedback is a huge thing you need to watch out for.

fabioisonfire

United States81 Posts

July 27 2011 23:26 GMT

#26

On July 28 2011 04:58 iBRomano wrote:
This seems easily scoutable with a single observer for P, and a decently quick transition into getting some High Templars would decimate your queens. I haven't watched the replays yet, and it seems quite interesting, but I'm just pointing out that Feedback is a huge thing you need to watch out for.

I've been going Infestation Pit first, and then denying all scouting from Protoss--I let them scout the Infestation Pit, so most players think I'm going for some kind of fast burrowed Infestor play.

As far as Terrans going for Ghosts and EMPing me, I've never had it happen. Most Terrans I play don't even tech to Ghosts by the time I'm pushing. (Around the 11-13 minute mark.)

fabioisonfire

United States81 Posts

July 27 2011 23:31 GMT

#27

On July 28 2011 03:29 CecilSunkure wrote:
I've faced this a few times, one guy did it really fast as reactionary to seeing immortals. I just thought he was bad with his late third, so I took my own. Lo and behold he pushed across the map with roach/queen/broodlord and killed me. I said gg wp, because he just made himself look like a bad player and then killed me.

Then I was wary from there on and just payed more attention to hive timing, and then a few more people did this to me, and I killed them all with Blink Stalker/Colossus. You just blink forward if you see a BL to pick off, and then back away. You can also threaten to counter attack, and since queen//broodlord is so slow it's really hard for the other guy to punish you for doing so, especially if you take a far away third.

I face this scenario quite a bit--I try to almost force my opponent into being greedy so my push will be more effective.

I haven't had as much trouble in the past with pure mass Blink Stalkers, but it depends on my Queen energy levels and Transfuse micro. However, when Collosus are in the mix, things get a bit more tricky.

Slayalisk

United States19 Posts

July 28 2011 00:04 GMT

#28

What can beat this? Roach/Hydra? And what do you transition into if the push fails?

CaptPanda

48 Posts

July 28 2011 00:05 GMT

#29

Late beta I did a lot of late game queen play since the numbers on transfuse seemed really good for a unit that cost no gas. It's nice as a gimmick but it won't hold up against someone who knows how to deal with it.

I do think adding queens into an army late game that has broods can be useful, but only getting queens and broods runs into 3 main problems.

First of all, and most importantly, your mobility is very lacking. If you completely catch your opponent off guard and they realize they can't beat your army, they can just counter attack. Similarly, it's difficult to hold off certain harassment with queen/broods.

Secondly, you can't transfuse to save a unit if it dies instantly. Focus fire from vikings or blink stalkers can make transfuse pretty much useless, and it's much easier for the other side to remax than it is for you. They can just come in, snipe off some broods, and then retreat.

Lastly, feedback/EMP crushes this. Very very difficult to prevent queens from being hit by these (moreso than infestors) because of how big the unit is, how many you need, and how slow they are.

Jibba

United States22883 Posts

July 28 2011 08:34 GMT

#30

On July 28 2011 03:55 Mattchew wrote:
I think when more refined this could be pretty lethal and maybe a viable timing attack

Timing attacks don't happen at the 13+ minute mark.

While I love the enthusiasm of the OP, this is just not a very viable strategy outside of lower levels of play.

Your low mobility not only means early-mid harassment can be especially potent, but it also means that you have to be extremely passive and will be slow to expand, since you need your critical mass of queens/transfuses to hold off real attacks. On top of that, an opponent who sees this will always be able to out-expand you since you have no map control and no form of aggression.

Rushing to any sort of tech always leaves you extremely vulnerable. You have no mid-game transition to help you stay alive until the G. Spire is done, or to help you get a third.

Your army composition just isn't very strong. Like Cecil pointed out, your Broodlords can be one shot by stalkers/vikings, which completely nullifies the queens, and good creep denial makes your eventual push much, much slower.

While it's true some people like TLO have experimented with mass queens/spine crawlers, it's gimmicky and they aren't rushing for tech to save themselves, they're simply attacking quickly with the queens/crawlers.

I'm glad this build has worked for you, but for these reasons and a few others it's not really appropriate for the Strategy forums. It's not very sound, and you're simply relying on your opponent being passive or confused, which is not a good way to play and doesn't last very long.