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Basically, I was wondering if there is any way to punish players who go for a 50/50 style (50/50 being win/lose). What I'm talking about when I say '50/50' mentality, is basically players cutting corners in order to get a slight advantage over their opponent. A bunker or two less, one less photon cannon, one less round of zerglings... you get the idea.
One of the things that always plagued me as a zerg player was the terran 1 rax expansion, or 2 rax into expo (i.e. on shakuras, but any map works really). Some terrans actually have the nerve to wall the top of their second ramp with 2 barracks and 1 bunker full of marines, with only a handful of marines behind it while they tech up to tanks or medivacs or whatever. In the case of a 2rax into expo, the wall can actually be fairly hard to scout early enough to make a decision, and you have to decide between all-inning or going lair/grabbing a 3rd/drones/etc. before you will have sufficient knowledge of what kind of precautions he will take against a possible baneling bust. However, when he doesn't scan me and takes little to no precautions while I try to play a solid macro game, I feel cheated, because I watch the replay and see that there was absolutely no way, even mathematically, for him to have won that game if I had done a baneling all-in.
Obviously, this applies for all match-ups, probably most apparent in PvP and build order wins/losses.
TSL Spoilers:
+ Show Spoiler +Take mouzMorrow vs LiquidJinro for example, where mouzMorrow basically baneling busted his way to victory in most of the games, or the games of y/day where Elfi went for a 1 gate robo expansion straight into colossus with no units
Is there any way to prevent a 50/50 mentality player from getting an edge every now and then using only in-game information (thus eliminating metagame and bo3/bo5 formats)? I don't feel like I can scout it in time. Maybe my scouting is just bad or there is something I don't know? Are there certain 'reads' I'm missing?
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In order to abuse these BO weaknesses or players greedyness you have to hit inbetween a small and precise timing window. A simple example is the 2 Rax CC of Terrans, which usually has a followup of Fac and siege tanks, if you're a few seconds late and he gets his first tank in position it's game.
You need a LOT of experience and gamesense to judge wether it's a good idea to abuse these windows, there's no magic trick behind it if not for a few tells you can catch by poking with lings or ovie.
I, for example, have this vision only when playing Zerg on which i've got more than 5k games played, while i'm not even close when playing Protoss or Terran (1k games each) and i just can't figure out what's exactly going on. The pros you see doing that have a ridicolous amount of games on their shoulders to judge the situation and still they sometimes fail.
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I always bane bust off of 2 base if I see the terran fast expanding. Shit, I get bunker rushed 80% of my games it's only fair I play agressive vs them. A rax wall in wont stop it in time. Just look at July 
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well, thats the key point in high level gaming, just do a little more than you can because he doesnt know it, and it's OK if both do it. If only one does it, well then he gives the other one a timing window like:
Protoss 3gate expand-->robo-->support bay gives a zerg who doesnt notice the ability for a huge roach or hydra/ling push
while Protoss 3gate-->6gate cuts pretty much every window to safely push him
if you want to punish your opponent as zerg you have to scout it or blindly do a timing push, but well, with zerg those timing pushes can turn into all-ins VERY fast.
because you mentioned it:
terran 1rax expo into 3rax+fac or 4rax is kind of safe, you really would have to push extremly hard (all-in) to break this
but well if he goes for something like 1rax-->expand-->1rax+1fac+1starport, you can really punish him for that, if you know it.
For zerg those punishment strats would be something like a eco-banelingbust or a eco-roachbust.
another thing: if you watch your replays and you think you should have done a baneling all-in and stuff like that, I guess a zerg would always be doomed because with protoss having ~7cheeses/1base all-ins and terran having a good number too where there is noway to be prepared for eachone of those in a ZvT and a ZvP, and the same logic applies vis-versa in lots of situations.
thats why allins work so great on the ladder, people only do what they see the pros do, and have no clue why they do it. So they try to get free advantages because they think it's a solid BO, while it only works if your opponent does something similar too.
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Well, this is not applicable to every race but I like to do a strong timing push versus greedy terrans and protoss close positions, using a Stim-MM with Tanks and utterly destroy them for not getting enough army. So, I sure this would mean a fourgate or roach rush (or something like that) for protoss and zerg with just enough tech to give you an unfair advantage.
Just to note, I don't have any success doing this against Zerg as they simply out produce me even if they fast expand, so they dont have this weakness against an all-in push later on, some sort of rush may do it.
Well, that or I just seven-rax all in and continue to add barrack until they are dead.
So thats what I do anyways, if you want punish your opponent I would just work on a build until its perfect and attacking them them with a enough to overpower them at a weak point before they start to fully produce off of two bases.
I would put up some replays but I'm bronze and the gameplay does not reflect what can be done to counter it in any of my replays.
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your post makes little sense.
"damn if i went 6 pool vs cc first, i had this, he cheated"
no opening is safe against every -unscouted- cheese so basicly either roach zergling or banneling zergling or roach drop or....
same as a protoss watching a replay and saying " damn if i went dt/4gate/phoenix/1 base colo/ 3 gate robo/ vrbi would have won!!" the 50/50 player is the all-inner.
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Australia385 Posts
The real issue is lack of zerg early game scouting to punish those early game gambles.
User was warned for this post
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Is this another "how do I scout" thread?
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EPT
