EPTWho is currently the Zerg King? - Page 29
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oriox
United States240 Posts
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Deception-35
United States113 Posts
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OhNoItsTheMunch
United States96 Posts
On April 30 2011 06:04 Mailing wrote: X beat y is meaningless when it happens over 4 months ago, when the entire premise of skill levels is completely different. Hypothetically, If Fruit Dealer had won the first 3 GSL in a row, then got knocked out in the first round every time in the following GSL, is he still the "king of zerg" because he has the best results from long ago? I would agree that results from a long time ago might have the largest weight. In order to use Zorn's Lemma, we just have to show that a partial ordering exists that is valid (which I was notably light on since I thought this was trivial). Here, the partial ordering that I am suggesting is some kind of comparative perspective on the results of different players at similar time frames. In your example you talk about a zerg taking 3 GSL titles. Immediately after that third GSL, there would definitely be some notion that, at that time, that player is king (here we can reference fame of other players that have won numerous GSLs and the subsequent reaction they have gotten from the community. So, at that time, that zerg is doing better then other zergs in arguably the most competitive scene at the moment (I know you're trying NASL, my heart is with you guys). So it would be fair to say that comparatively that zerg is doing better. So then if we can just create some scaling factor as to how much we want results to factor in after some given time, then we have are partial ordering, and thus a maximal element must exist. | ||
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SiCkO_
United States481 Posts
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Deindar
United States302 Posts
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Slago
Canada726 Posts
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XothermeK
United Arab Emirates245 Posts
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I)etox
1240 Posts
On April 30 2011 06:29 Supernatural35 wrote: IdrA hands down best foreign zerg Lookin' for the zerg king here buddy, not the best foreign zerg king. On April 30 2011 08:35 XothermeK wrote: Ok, now make a thread about the Terran king. Easy. MVP. Although there looks to be usurpers in the near future. | ||
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Zyte
Netherlands564 Posts
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Knuppe
90 Posts
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
He is not the best foreigner (Dimaga is), and if you even do count the Koreans in there, he is far from the top. At least he is the best Amercan Zerg. Although i think Sheth has better ZvP. | ||
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neo_sporin
United States516 Posts
On April 30 2011 05:58 OhNoItsTheMunch wrote: I would like to say that I do not think "The throne is empty" is a valid poll option. In mathematics, there is this thing called Zorn's Lemma which says that any set with partial ordering (in this case we can using any "X beat Y" argument as a partial ordering on the set of all zerg players) has a maximal element. Thus the king, being the maximal element, must exist. It is Nestea. I would also like to add that i think this hypothesis is incorrect for two reasons. 1) Any pro can beat eachother on any given day, thus you would have A beat B, B beat C, C beat A, B beat A, D beat C and A then lost to B but then B beat A again but lost to everyone else. 2) There are 3 different matchups you would also consider. Lets say Nestea has 100% win rate against zerg (almost accurate on TV) so he MUST be the best zerg right? well now lets say he has a 0% win rate against protoss and terran. So if you put all the zergs in a room he would be undefeated. But what if July has 99% win rate against zerg (nestea is the only one that can beat him) and he has 95% win rate against protoss and 95 against terran. Well his total win rate is 289 out of 300 compared to nesteads 100 out of 300. so now whose better? in a head to head Nestea would win, but July is clearly better overall. There is no zerg king currently, If losira wins GSL I might be inclined to say we are in the era of winsira since that would be 2 gsl seasons in a row he didnt lose, but eh, we will see. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
i think they can share throne | ||
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keioh
France1099 Posts
On April 30 2011 08:39 I)etox wrote: Lookin' for the zerg king here buddy, not the best foreign zerg king. Easy. MVP. Although there looks to be usurpers in the near future. Iirc, many T pros did crown ST_Bomber as the best T at the moment. On April 30 2011 05:58 OhNoItsTheMunch wrote: I would like to say that I do not think "The throne is empty" is a valid poll option. In mathematics, there is this thing called Zorn's Lemma which says that any set with partial ordering (in this case we can using any "X beat Y" argument as a partial ordering on the set of all zerg players) has a maximal element. Thus the king, being the maximal element, must exist. It is Nestea. Zorn's lemma requires an inductive set, or a totally ordered set. "Beat" is not an order relation, because X beat Y doesn't mean "always", as Y can beat X too. Also, X beat Y, Y beat Z, but Z can beat X, so it's not transitive and I don't see an order there. | ||
Poopi
France13018 Posts
On April 30 2011 08:26 SiCkO_ wrote: There is no "ZergKing", "TerranKing" or even "ProtossKing" (though MC is very close). The fact is no single player has been consistently dominant enough to earn the title yet and whoever does will be our first "Bonjwa" of SC2. But there's a MarineKing 8). And Mvp is probably still the best terran, probably not for long but still. | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
On April 30 2011 06:48 OhNoItsTheMunch wrote: I would agree that results from a long time ago might have the largest weight. In order to use Zorn's Lemma, we just have to show that a partial ordering exists that is valid (which I was notably light on since I thought this was trivial). Here, the partial ordering that I am suggesting is some kind of comparative perspective on the results of different players at similar time frames. In your example you talk about a zerg taking 3 GSL titles. Immediately after that third GSL, there would definitely be some notion that, at that time, that player is king (here we can reference fame of other players that have won numerous GSLs and the subsequent reaction they have gotten from the community. So, at that time, that zerg is doing better then other zergs in arguably the most competitive scene at the moment (I know you're trying NASL, my heart is with you guys). So it would be fair to say that comparatively that zerg is doing better. So then if we can just create some scaling factor as to how much we want results to factor in after some given time, then we have are partial ordering, and thus a maximal element must exist. Dude partial ordering requires transitivity in the set. There is not transitivity in competition: if a>b and b>c, it doesn't follow that a>c, c could do better against a in competition. Therefore there's no partial ordering and no Zorn's Lemma. So there is not a necessary maximum element, and I believe my choice of throne is empty is valid. | ||
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Godstorm
Romania845 Posts
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On April 30 2011 19:27 Knuppe wrote: idra hands down the best. Hasnt won as much as nestea ofc but still I think he is a notch better right now. So despite admitting he does worse than Nestea... he's better than Nestea? I like Idra but he basically got run out of Korea. He always placed high in the GSL but he never made it to the finals, and he's had a fair share of stupid losses (Huk, anyone?). I can't see how anyone but Nestea can get the nod at this point. When the worst you can say about a man is that he's recently lost one televised z v z, I think you're onto a winner. By the way, has nobody considered that maybe no zergs will make it to the round of 8? It's hardly a secret that zergs are struggling against good protoss right now. | ||
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magha
Netherlands427 Posts
[QUOTE]On April 30 2011 19:27 Knuppe wrote: By the way, has nobody considered that maybe no zergs will make it to the round of 8? It's hardly a secret that zergs are struggling against good protoss right now.[/QUOTE] 2 zergs made it to the round of 8 | ||
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Johnnybb
Denmark486 Posts
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