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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
I don't see what I can possibly do agaisnt this if I have the misfortune of scouting him last, I couldn't even see his overlord. Do I really need to go forge first in every single game? I doubt that would even have made a difference. So.... any way to survive this? http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=196964 Watch the replay before commenting please. ps. 3,3k diamond (me) vs. 300 plat..... | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
Pylon your 1-gate core/forge gap, keep mining, chrono out a zealot (it will land behind your gate), and just keep making units. You should build a forge immediately when you scout 6pool, but if it doesn't finish, you can buy time very easily. Your gateway and possibly your forge will go down, but that's okay... make a 1-zealot wall again with pylons, and force him into a bottleneck. Get a cannon up. Your 1 zealot (and if he's bad, 2 zealots) can solo 12 lings 1 at a time. Bring up a probe, and if he's still auto attacking stuff hold the probe position and pick at the lings without giving up the 1-gap wall. also, use your scouting probe that he ran by to kill his drones or harass them. A perfectly executed 6pool will look like this: 6 lings @2:12 8 lings @2:27 10 lings @2:42 --------------------- +6 lings @~3:50 (plus travel time) In other words, if you hold off those 10 lings, you're in great shape. Delay delay delay, and try not to use your probes unless you absolutely can't hold a pylon corridor. | ||
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Flavalanche
United States164 Posts
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
also, use your scouting probe that he ran by to kill his drones or harass them. Dude, did you even watch the replay? If you read my OP (or even the thread title), you would know that he used his drones too. It is evident that you didn't even read the first post. Try again. | ||
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
On March 20 2011 22:34 Flavalanche wrote: Just make your normal protoss 1-slot wall into a full wall with a pylon, and you should be able to chronoboost out a couple zealots by the time he gets in, and even then pull off a few probes. + Show Spoiler + But he stood there with a drone so I couldnt finish it, and a second later all his stuff was there. I dooubt a complete wall off would have helped, I didnt have a forge thus no cannons. Forge first is for forge expand, but I don't do that on a map like this. Even if I had finished a zealot, It would not be enough and he would destroy the wall. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On March 20 2011 22:38 DoctorPhil wrote: But he stood there with a drone so I couldnt finish it, and a second later all his stuff was there. I dooubt a complete wall off would have helped, I didnt have a forge thus no cannons. Forge first is for forge expand, but I don't do that on a map like this. Even if I had finished a zealot, It would not be enough and he would destroy the wall. you have to FINISH IT PULL PROBE IF NEEDED its a crucial thing in PvZ, never let them delay your cyber!!!! | ||
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Mikau
Netherlands1446 Posts
Also, kill the drone stalling your wall in with a probe, build the wall the moment the drone is out of position. | ||
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Nis
Singapore45 Posts
I was gonna say use an additional probe scout to detect if theres any overlord in close air positions but the distance and hence timing of this close air is kinda funky. Normally on Metal or LT you can scout a close air ovie at around 11 food and allow you to switch your scout probe position fast enough but i notice this ovie can only be seen around 14/15 food which by then is too late too So my suggestion would be, 9 scout as per normal, but check the close air gold expo for overlord scouting, then swing to close rush position scout if you dont see an OL. 99.9% of the time a zerg will path his overlord that way, especially if he plans to cheese. This will delay your scout by 20s or so but you should still have enough time to react if he is doing the same build on cross positions (longer rush dist and you scout marginally earlier than if you scout normally and found him on the last position) | ||
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
you have to FINISH IT PULL PROBE IF NEEDED its a crucial thing in PvZ, never let them delay your cyber!!!! Edit: Watched the replay again, and i noticed my gate wasn't even done soon enough, I couldn't have placed a cyber anyway. So, if I don't preemtively 12 gate or scout for that overlord I'm dead. Now i'll have to memorise the overlord timings for every 4 player map :s Anyway, thanks guys. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
To start off, you go for a greedy 14 gate with double chrono on nexus. The standard is 13 gate, 2nd chrono on 14 btw. Your pylon and gate timings are horrible. I went and tried for myself :all these little imperfection add up to 5 seconds late on your pylon, 10 seconds late on your gate, and 10-15 secs on your scout. A proper execution gives you 25 seconds of time to prepare between the time you scout the all in and the time lings + drones are in your base while you barely had 10 seconds in your replay. 25 secs is by far enough time to chase the drone and finish the wall off. As protoss, you'll find that the only way to survive early game is to have perfect timings. If you are off by 5 seconds when building your FIRST structure, then don't be surprised if you lose to early cheese / all in... | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
them 6 pools are "pretty fucking imba" xd | ||
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
Metalopolis. 1:30 Shattered temple. 1:16 For other 4 player maps with short sideways distances send a worker at the area in between if there is one. Hope this helps some other people too. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 20 2011 23:36 DoctorPhil wrote: I just looked at the timings where an overlord can earlyest spot your base when you start sideways of each other. These are the only 4 player maps I haven't vetoed where there is no area in between to scout. Metalopolis. 1:30 Shattered temple. 1:16 For other 4 player maps with short sideways distances send a worker at the area in between if there is one. Hope this helps some other people too. Thanks~ Good info. I never really tested the timings for 4 player maps xd. | ||
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
I already explained that you can counter this rush by actually trying to improve your play instead of blaming game balance. | ||
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
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Mikau
Netherlands1446 Posts
On March 20 2011 23:52 Geiko wrote: Sarcasm because no one is going to pull a worker of mining for the sole purpose of trying to spot an overlord ... I already explained that you can counter this rush by actually trying to improve your play instead of blaming game balance. Excuse me? You lose 5 seconds of mining time in exchange of knowing where he is way ahead of when your probe scout would've gotten there. Most good players do pull a probe to spot the overlord, at least on shattered temple and metalopolis (dunno about shakuras or the new maps). | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 20 2011 23:52 Geiko wrote: Sarcasm because no one is going to pull a worker of mining for the sole purpose of trying to spot an overlord ... I already explained that you can counter this rush by actually trying to improve your play instead of blaming game balance. a) Pros start doing this. All you have to do in close-air positions is to click a probe, move to edge of the base, and move it back. You'll see an overlord. You seem skeptical. b) This allows you to scout faster. Do you want your 1st scouting probe to fail 2 times? Only 5 seconds for positional knowledge. What league are you in? @Doctor I wasn't being sarcastic.. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
On March 20 2011 23:52 Geiko wrote: Sarcasm because no one is going to pull a worker of mining for the sole purpose of trying to spot an overlord .. Yeah we never see the pros do this! :D | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:10 iChau wrote: a) Pros start doing this. All you have to do in close-air positions is to click a probe, move to edge of the base, and move it back. You'll see an overlord. You seem skeptical. b) This allows you to scout faster. Do you want your 1st scouting probe to fail 2 times? Only 5 seconds for positional knowledge. What league are you in? @Doctor I wasn't being sarcastic.. It's what I do every TvZ on a smaller 4 player map like metal, or shattered. Scout the close ground spot, and at 11 supply scout the edge of my base, just as my depot finishes. That was, I have 3/4 the chance to stop their expo by finding their OL or blindly going close ground. If it's cross map, you know they'll macro so harass. In short -- gotta learn OL timings. New maps are harder, but if you saw the OL early you should gather where he's at roughly. Slagpits is a rush central map. I 2 rax everyone but Z that map. | ||
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
Well it's nice to hear I'm actually on to something. I didn't know pros did this because I've barely watched any pro games yet, I really should start doing that. In short -- gotta learn OL timings. New maps are harder, but if you saw the OL early you should gather where he's at roughly. Slagpits is a rush central map. I 2 rax everyone but Z that map. Well then, I know where my third veto goes to heh. | ||
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iNz
Sweden119 Posts
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:10 iChau wrote: a) Pros start doing this. All you have to do in close-air positions is to click a probe, move to edge of the base, and move it back. You'll see an overlord. You seem skeptical. b) This allows you to scout faster. Do you want your 1st scouting probe to fail 2 times? Only 5 seconds for positional knowledge. What league are you in? @Doctor I wasn't being sarcastic.. WTF are you talking about ? I just tested this with a friend. The timing when you can spot the overlord is 1:40, at that time you've already scouted close positions and are almost at the cross po ramp. What good is wasting 5 secs of mining time at that point ? I scout as normal, when I see mass drones and zerglings moving out, i pull probes, chase drone, finish wall off, chrono zealot and it's gg. Seriously you guys need to stop panicking and tell people to do absurd things like check timing for overlords. We are not pros, people forget to send their overlord... for example my diamond friend sent his 12 seconds late. That didn't hinder him, and if I had pulled a probe, I would have gotten the wrong info. Master league to answer the question. Edit : Also, I'm fairly sure Pros don't do this in PvZ, stop giving wrong information. I think the confusion here is that some of you are talking about TvZ where T scouts much later than protoss and where such information can actually be useful. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:25 Geiko wrote: WTF are you talking about ? I just tested this with a friend. The timing when you can spot the overlord is 1:40, at that time you've already scouted close positions and are almost at the cross po ramp. What good is wasting 5 secs of mining time at that point ? I scout as normal, when I see mass drones and zerglings moving out, i pull probes, chase drone, finish wall off, chrono zealot and it's gg. Seriously you guys need to stop panicking and tell people to do absurd things like check timing for overlords. We are not pros, people forget to send their overlord... for example my diamond friend sent his 12 seconds late. That didn't hinder him, and if I had pulled a probe, I would have gotten the wrong info. Master league to answer the question. Edit : Also, I'm fairly sure Pros don't do this in PvZ, stop giving wrong information. I think the confusion here is that some of you are talking about TvZ where T scouts much later than protoss and where such information can actually be useful. We're talking about maps such as Metalopolis or Shattered Temple. By the time you send your probe to 9 pylon scout, the overlord at close-air is already at the edge/in your base. There's a reason why people like Artosis and Tasteless suggested everyone to do this, and this is already in my gameplay because I played this many times. It doesn't work as well on Slag Pits. If you want me to personally test this because you don't know what a test is, then I'll do it. Well, I'm too lazy. Just search up "important timings" or w/e and you'll see timings for close-air. Your probe will be around half-way/at the close-pos base by the time overlord reaches you. | ||
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NoisyNinja
United States991 Posts
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 21 2011 01:08 iChau wrote: We're talking about maps such as Metalopolis or Shattered Temple. [sarcasm] Wow my bad, I thought this was a topic about how to deal with 6pool + 7drones on Slag Pits Close-air positions. [/sarcasm] Thanks to guys like you, OP is going to start screwing up his BO by doing useless things. Also, I'm not even sure you watched the replay or read the OP before posting... OP asked how he should stop this, I tested this exact build with a friend and gave him an answer that works. I also took the time of checking out your crazy theories about how he could have scouted this by pulling a probe at a certain timing and answered to that as well... Nothing I can do more I think. If you want to start your own thread about on which map it is good to pull a probe and when, please do so but stop giving wrong/irrelevant information here. | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
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101toss
3232 Posts
Since it's a 6pool w/ drone all in, once he loses, he loses. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 21 2011 01:18 Geiko wrote: [sarcasm] Wow my bad, I thought this was a topic about how to deal with 6pool + 7drones on Slag Pits Close-air positions. [/sarcasm] Thanks to guys like you, OP is going to start screwing up his BO by doing useless things. Also, I'm not even sure you watched the replay or read the OP before posting... OP asked how he should stop this, I tested this exact build with a friend and gave him an answer that works. I also took the time of checking out your crazy theories about how he could have scouted this by pulling a probe at a certain timing and answered to that as well... Nothing I can do more I think. If you want to start your own thread about on which map it is good to pull a probe and when, please do so but stop giving wrong/irrelevant information here. Sigh. You're really.. eh. + Show Spoiler + On March 21 2011 00:15 iAmJeffReY wrote: It's what I do every TvZ on a smaller 4 player map like metal, or shattered. Scout the close ground spot, and at 11 supply scout the edge of my base, just as my depot finishes. That was, I have 3/4 the chance to stop their expo by finding their OL or blindly going close ground. If it's cross map, you know they'll macro so harass. In short -- gotta learn OL timings. New maps are harder, but if you saw the OL early you should gather where he's at roughly. Slagpits is a rush central map. I 2 rax everyone but Z that map. First of all, you want to scout the 6 pool. He never said in the topic, "How to stop the 6 pool 7 drone when on Slag Pits", he says how to stop it when you scout it last. You answered him, but we're just giving extra things. What if he failed again because he scouted zerg last in for example, Shattered Temple, or Metalopolis? Overlord timings are very crucial, I'm just adding it to your post of how you should stop it after scouting. Communication is often misinterpreted, but it's okay, I forgive you. A chronoed 11 probe can scout the close-air overlord, allowing you to instantly switch scout paths. Oh, and since you keep talking about Slag Pits, note in the OP he only mentioned it once, he didn't repeatedly say how to stop it specifically on Slag Pits last scout position. edit: Oh, and are you saying Day9's, Tasteless's, and Artosis's opinions are irrelevant to scouting quicker? If you think that is irrelevant to scouting a zerg A.S.A.P to check for a fast pool, you sir, are not masters. | ||
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
Wow my bad, I thought this was a topic about how to deal with 6pool + 7drones on Slag Pits Close-air positions. I changed the topic myself, because I already found a good solution, I'll veto that damn slag pits, I think it'll be removed from the map pool soon anyway. Please keep discussing the new topic, I'm intersted in it.I'm fairly sure Pros don't do this in PvZ Artosis advised to do this according to Chau. I think i'll go ahead and do the riskyer overlord scout. I'll fail some times in the start, but eventualy I'll get the hang of it, I could use every edge I can get against masters zerg that macro well. It will allow me to 14 gate and double chrono boost nexus. It could also make me be on time to block an FE. The concern for me is appreciated though :> However, I'll be sure to find some replays to see how/wether pros do this. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 21 2011 01:33 iChau wrote: Sigh. You're really.. eh. + Show Spoiler + On March 21 2011 00:15 iAmJeffReY wrote: It's what I do every TvZ on a smaller 4 player map like metal, or shattered. Scout the close ground spot, and at 11 supply scout the edge of my base, just as my depot finishes. That was, I have 3/4 the chance to stop their expo by finding their OL or blindly going close ground. If it's cross map, you know they'll macro so harass. In short -- gotta learn OL timings. New maps are harder, but if you saw the OL early you should gather where he's at roughly. Slagpits is a rush central map. I 2 rax everyone but Z that map. First of all, you want to scout the 6 pool. He never said in the topic, "How to stop the 6 pool 7 drone when on Slag Pits", he says how to stop it when you scout it last. You answered him, but we're just giving extra things. What if he failed again because he scouted zerg last in for example, Shattered Temple, or Metalopolis? Overlord timings are very crucial, I'm just adding it to your post of how you should stop it after scouting. Communication is often misinterpreted, but it's okay, I forgive you. A chronoed 11 probe can scout the close-air overlord, allowing you to instantly switch scout paths. Oh, and since you keep talking about Slag Pits, note in the OP he only mentioned it once, he didn't repeatedly say how to stop it specifically on Slag Pits last scout position. edit: Oh, and are you saying Day9's, Tasteless's, and Artosis's opinions are irrelevant to scouting quicker? If you think that is irrelevant to scouting a zerg A.S.A.P to check for a fast pool, you sir, are not masters. I'm not arguing that on different maps this is maybe useful... You should really learn to read other people's posts before giving out advice they didn't ask you for. On March 20 2011 22:36 DoctorPhil wrote: Dude, did you even watch the replay? If you read my OP (or even the thread title), you would know that he used his drones too. It is evident that you didn't even read the first post. Try again. This is the OP bashing someone who was giving good advice on what to do in case of 6 pool without drones. I'm assuming OP wants us to look at his replay and give him specific advice on what he should have done in this particular game. Obviously any other kind of advice doesn't interest him. So I'm just answering his question. Pulling a drone to scout for overlord would have been utterly useless in this game, on slag pits. Regarding other maps, If I have time I'll check it out for myself considering 6 pool timings and figure out if it is useful or not. But once again, it is not relevant to this topic which is how to counter 6pool + 7 drones on slag pit close air if you scouted last. In this case the rush comes at 2:52, I'm assuming on shattered or metal the timings are different, leading maybe to other ways of defending/scouting this. Edit : for OP, double chrono on nexus 14 gate is possible, but in this case you have to do what HuK does : send an early scout at 8 or some time before pylon depending on maps. | ||
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
This is the OP bashing someone who was giving good advice on what to do in case of 6 pool without drones. I said in the title he used his 7 drones too. Thewres a character limitation so the title was a bit short. However, due to his reply it became clear that he didn't even read the first post. I know how to beat a 6 pool. A six pool + 7drone all in when I scout him last is a different story. If you don't read the OP why bother replying? I even explicitly said to watch the replay first. It's annoying. Edit : for OP, double chrono on nexus 14 gate is possible, but in this case you have to do what HuK does : send an early scout at 8 or some time before pylon depending on maps. Allright, I'll look into that, thanks. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On March 21 2011 01:54 DoctorPhil wrote: I said in the title he used his 7 drones too. Thewres a character limitation so the title was a bit short. However, due to his reply it became clear that he didn't even read the first post. I know how to beat a 6 pool. A six pool + 7drone all in when I scout him last is a different story. If you don't read the OP why bother replying? It's annoying. Yeah I'm not blaming you for that, I'm just saying that from that answer I assumed you wanted to talk about this specific game (6 pools + drones on slag pits). Telling you what you should do on Metalopolis is the same thing as telling you what you should do if no drones are pulled : a different topic. | ||
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HairyProboscis
Canada63 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 20 2011 22:36 DoctorPhil wrote: Dude, did you even watch the replay? If you read my OP (or even the thread title), you would know that he used his drones too. It is evident that you didn't even read the first post. Try again. I didn't watch your replay because 6-pool is very easy to stop. The reason it works at high levels is because people get greedy and hedge bets. I 6 pool all 3 races here and there, and it still beats low-mid master players with decent frequency. I know what i'm talking about, and you can choose to abide by it, or just continue to whine about why your micro is bad. A drone all-in is not more effective than a 6-ling into 10-overling rush. This is because if you aren't completely retarded, you'll continue to wall, limiting the number of spots he can attack with. Because of this, the drones only serve to decrease the maximum dps or clog the ling attack lanes. On March 21 2011 01:54 DoctorPhil wrote: I said in the title he used his 7 drones too. Thewres a character limitation so the title was a bit short. However, due to his reply it became clear that he didn't even read the first post. I know how to beat a 6 pool. A six pool + 7drone all in when I scout him last is a different story. If you don't read the OP why bother replying? I even explicitly said to watch the replay first. It's annoying. Allright, I'll look into that, thanks. Stopping a 6pool is more difficult than stopping a 6pool with 7 drones, I hope you realize this. Instead of 10 lings, you only see 6, and there aren't enough places to attack if you just wall. Also, the total DPS pre-zealot is lower. I'm sorry you're bad and can't accept good advice when you read it. This thread should have been closed before anyone had the chance to reply honestly. Use the forum search and check out the hundreds of threads on 6 pools. | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On March 20 2011 22:12 DoctorPhil wrote: This is the most ridiculous game I've ever played. It's a PvZ where he went 6 pool + 7 drone all in. It was slag pits where we started sideays from each other, me on left bottom and him bottom right. He scouted me early with his overlord. I was unlucky and scouted clockwise, so I saw him when he was already on his way. I don't see what I can possibly do agaisnt this if I have the misfortune of scouting him last, I couldn't even see his overlord. Do I really need to go forge first in every single game? I doubt that would even have made a difference. So.... any way to survive this? http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=196964 Watch the replay before commenting please. ps. 3,3k diamond (me) vs. 300 plat..... Scout close ground first... Always ! + If you scout him last, chrono boost zealots and start your forge + 1 cannon. If you dont think you can get 1-2 zealot fast enough, wall completely. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On March 20 2011 23:25 Geiko wrote: For someone aiming to be in masters, your execution is pretty sloppy. To start off, you go for a greedy 14 gate with double chrono on nexus. The standard is 13 gate, 2nd chrono on 14 btw. Your pylon and gate timings are horrible. I went and tried for myself :all these little imperfection add up to 5 seconds late on your pylon, 10 seconds late on your gate, and 10-15 secs on your scout. A proper execution gives you 25 seconds of time to prepare between the time you scout the all in and the time lings + drones are in your base while you barely had 10 seconds in your replay. 25 secs is by far enough time to chase the drone and finish the wall off. As protoss, you'll find that the only way to survive early game is to have perfect timings. If you are off by 5 seconds when building your FIRST structure, then don't be surprised if you lose to early cheese / all in... Do you actually have fun when you play? I don't care if I never see masters or even diamond. I enjoy myself. I watched his replay and he made some mistakes that are definitely outlined as you said. You're absolutely right, he was 25 seconds late. But if perfection is the price of playing starcraft or getting advice on this forum, then why would you need advice? QED, not everyone is as good as you and I, as insignificant as I am, would appreciate it if you were more constructive with your criticism. | ||
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555
56 Posts
On March 21 2011 16:10 Probe1 wrote: Do you actually have fun when you play? I don't care if I never see masters or even diamond. I enjoy myself. I watched his replay and he made some mistakes that are definitely outlined as you said. You're absolutely right, he was 25 seconds late. But if perfection is the price of playing starcraft or getting advice on this forum, then why would you need advice? QED, not everyone is as good as you and I, as insignificant as I am, would appreciate it if you were more constructive with your criticism. The fact that he made the post means that he cared. 15 seconds is absolutely huge early game, and Geiko gave some very good advice with analysis on what went wrong. It was a very constructive post, and if I was given this advice I would try to shave that time off. Frankly, I find it more fun to win and improve on strategies, rather than wait 25 seconds and lose. Also, although pulling a probe to the edge probably wouldn't have mattered in this game too much, but I do it all the time. The scout information is valuable. | ||
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jinnyjinn
United States38 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On March 21 2011 16:10 Probe1 wrote: I thought Geiko's post was probably the most constructive post of the entire thread. The fact is, defending the all-in that the OP faced was virtually impossible with his early game timings. Just 1-2 seconds can be the difference between completing one's wall-off and surviving or just straight up losing as the OP did. The OP created the thread looking to improve his game and his chances for winning, so I don't see what you have against Geiko's post.Do you actually have fun when you play? I don't care if I never see masters or even diamond. I enjoy myself. I watched his replay and he made some mistakes that are definitely outlined as you said. You're absolutely right, he was 25 seconds late. But if perfection is the price of playing starcraft or getting advice on this forum, then why would you need advice? QED, not everyone is as good as you and I, as insignificant as I am, would appreciate it if you were more constructive with your criticism. Also, the checking for overlord coming from close position can be SUPER USEFUL in PvZ. On maps like Metal and Shattered Temple it can be the difference between blocking a 14/15 hatch and letting it go up. As a Z player who loves to get my hatch down first if at all possible, I'm always disheartened if I see the probe check and see my OL, as I now know I have no chance of going hatch first. I don't see what the point of the bickering about this is -- sure, it's not useful on Slag Pits, but it was still very useful advice for the OP in general, and complements Geiko's advice rather than taking anything away from it. So please just stop hating on each other's ideas when they're both good and useful. | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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