On November 09 2011 22:29 Rojam wrote: To be fair, there are pro sc2 players, who were cheating in bw and got caught. I won't drop any names, but they've gotten a second chance as well.
what? name me some, i'm interested
I'm pretty sure he means people who map-hacked or abused something. You should know these foreign players who did so.
nah sorry.. i don't read foreign news :<
but if they are caught, why are they allowed to play again?
Hard to say. All the players i can think of who did something like this are (or were) in a pretty respectable/big team(still in SC2). So i guess they have been forgiven. But IMO what they did isn't nowhere near as bad as what Savior and co did.
Two that I know of didn't do it in tournament environment afaik, and one that did got suspended from all TL events for I believe a year?
On November 10 2011 19:12 konadora wrote: as someone who's followed bw esports scene in korea from quite early on, and being the most passionate savior fan ever, i say this:
savior is a scumbag as a human, because why? he's never apologised. he played the main role, he was the reason why the match-fixing started. what rotinegg says sums up exactly how i feel about savior's actions
On November 10 2011 07:31 HFL wrote: Compared to the other match fixers, Savior didn't really have a big part in it. Yes he was a broker, which in Korea some people think it's even worse than actual match fixing. The punishments that were given to Savior were not nearly as severe as the others like Hwasin's and Justin's. The whole scandal entirely brought down BW, not just Savior, he didn't play as big of a part as some people may think. Although the actions he did were still bad and probably unforgivable for most people, I think he should be given a chance to relieve his image.
justin played just as big of a role; the only two progamers that were punished were infact savior and justin. savior never apologized, unlike the others who did, and instead went into hiding. then he started streaming BW to make money, and that's what makes him a scumbag, while the others we can say 'it was a lapse of judgement.'
edit: this is a sensitive issue in the BW scene, so please dont throw around arbitrary statements as if they were facts. hwasin was never punished. I had to double check just to make sure: wiki
How does streaming make him a douchebag? If you're gonna be angry at anyone it should be the viewers who give him money.
i'm pretty upset that people would give him money for streaming, but to each his own, that's not a criminal act.
Esports didn't exist in korea 15 years ago. The entire scene was pioneered from nothing by people who were truly passionate about the game. It was a little niche, a safe haven for those who legitimately loved the game, and wanted to compete/watch others compete. Savior's act of douchebaggery (ie match fixing) was the first big scandal in the scene, and it did massive damage to the still-developing BW scene. The scandal tarnished the image that the scene projects, especially to the older population in Korea, who had never been keen on if the idea of their kids getting heavily involved in video games. To the predecessors who helped and watched the scene develop, Savior is an ungrateful prick who milked the cow and tipped it over when he had gotten what he wanted. To run away without a single apology, and then come back and try to make money by streaming BW is like taking a dump on that cow. I dunno at least that's how I feel.
Of course we all make mistakes in life, small and big, but how you handle it after you make that mistake is what shows your true character. What Savior is doing can hardly be called 'owning up'. Truly disappointed as an ex-fan of his.
if at the very least, he had crawled out to apologise, if he had admitted his wrong-doings to his coach, teammates, fellow players and fans, the hate on TL wouldn't be to this extent. why do you think players like hwasin and upmagic get less hate than savior? they apologised. they realised their wrong-doings and admitted it. savior didn't. he didn't take up responsibility, and that is what makes me mad at him as a person.
and i still can't believe people actually feel that he deserves a second chance. do you think even if kespa allows it, the fans and staff (especially OGN commentators, they were incredibly upset about it, watch it here
will allow it? i would never ever want to see his face appear back on a field of profession that he personally tarnished. the innocence and image that the bw scene had, the key factor that attracted so many youngsters and adults alike, was shattered. it is being re-established, yes, and it's going fine, but if this blasphemer was to be back and go like "sup guys, nothing happened", there will be hell. there is a fine line to draw when giving second chances. it's not about money, but it's about trust and image and other intangible factors.
as a player though, that is totally another story.
Didn't he actually apologized in a letter to his former fans? I hardly remember reading a letter from him to his fans....i might be wrong though.
On November 10 2011 19:12 konadora wrote: as someone who's followed bw esports scene in korea from quite early on, and being the most passionate savior fan ever, i say this:
savior is a scumbag as a human, because why? he's never apologised. he played the main role, he was the reason why the match-fixing started. what rotinegg says sums up exactly how i feel about savior's actions
On November 10 2011 10:28 rotinegg wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:11 mapthesoul wrote:
On November 10 2011 07:39 rotinegg wrote:
On November 10 2011 07:31 HFL wrote: Compared to the other match fixers, Savior didn't really have a big part in it. Yes he was a broker, which in Korea some people think it's even worse than actual match fixing. The punishments that were given to Savior were not nearly as severe as the others like Hwasin's and Justin's. The whole scandal entirely brought down BW, not just Savior, he didn't play as big of a part as some people may think. Although the actions he did were still bad and probably unforgivable for most people, I think he should be given a chance to relieve his image.
justin played just as big of a role; the only two progamers that were punished were infact savior and justin. savior never apologized, unlike the others who did, and instead went into hiding. then he started streaming BW to make money, and that's what makes him a scumbag, while the others we can say 'it was a lapse of judgement.'
edit: this is a sensitive issue in the BW scene, so please dont throw around arbitrary statements as if they were facts. hwasin was never punished. I had to double check just to make sure: wiki
How does streaming make him a douchebag? If you're gonna be angry at anyone it should be the viewers who give him money.
i'm pretty upset that people would give him money for streaming, but to each his own, that's not a criminal act.
Esports didn't exist in korea 15 years ago. The entire scene was pioneered from nothing by people who were truly passionate about the game. It was a little niche, a safe haven for those who legitimately loved the game, and wanted to compete/watch others compete. Savior's act of douchebaggery (ie match fixing) was the first big scandal in the scene, and it did massive damage to the still-developing BW scene. The scandal tarnished the image that the scene projects, especially to the older population in Korea, who had never been keen on if the idea of their kids getting heavily involved in video games. To the predecessors who helped and watched the scene develop, Savior is an ungrateful prick who milked the cow and tipped it over when he had gotten what he wanted. To run away without a single apology, and then come back and try to make money by streaming BW is like taking a dump on that cow. I dunno at least that's how I feel.
Of course we all make mistakes in life, small and big, but how you handle it after you make that mistake is what shows your true character. What Savior is doing can hardly be called 'owning up'. Truly disappointed as an ex-fan of his.
if at the very least, he had crawled out to apologise, if he had admitted his wrong-doings to his coach, teammates, fellow players and fans, the hate on TL wouldn't be to this extent. why do you think players like hwasin and upmagic get less hate than savior? they apologised. they realised their wrong-doings and admitted it. savior didn't. he didn't take up responsibility, and that is what makes me mad at him as a person.
and i still can't believe people actually feel that he deserves a second chance. do you think even if kespa allows it, the fans and staff (especially OGN commentators, they were incredibly upset about it, watch it here
will allow it? i would never ever want to see his face appear back on a field of profession that he personally tarnished. the innocence and image that the bw scene had, the key factor that attracted so many youngsters and adults alike, was shattered. it is being re-established, yes, and it's going fine, but if this blasphemer was to be back and go like "sup guys, nothing happened", there will be hell. there is a fine line to draw when giving second chances. it's not about money, but it's about trust and image and other intangible factors.
as a player though, that is totally another story.
Didn't he actually apologized in a letter to his former fans? I hardly remember reading a letter from him to his fans....i might be wrong though.
On November 10 2011 19:12 konadora wrote: as someone who's followed bw esports scene in korea from quite early on, and being the most passionate savior fan ever, i say this:
savior is a scumbag as a human, because why? he's never apologised. he played the main role, he was the reason why the match-fixing started. what rotinegg says sums up exactly how i feel about savior's actions
On November 10 2011 10:28 rotinegg wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:11 mapthesoul wrote:
On November 10 2011 07:39 rotinegg wrote:
On November 10 2011 07:31 HFL wrote: Compared to the other match fixers, Savior didn't really have a big part in it. Yes he was a broker, which in Korea some people think it's even worse than actual match fixing. The punishments that were given to Savior were not nearly as severe as the others like Hwasin's and Justin's. The whole scandal entirely brought down BW, not just Savior, he didn't play as big of a part as some people may think. Although the actions he did were still bad and probably unforgivable for most people, I think he should be given a chance to relieve his image.
justin played just as big of a role; the only two progamers that were punished were infact savior and justin. savior never apologized, unlike the others who did, and instead went into hiding. then he started streaming BW to make money, and that's what makes him a scumbag, while the others we can say 'it was a lapse of judgement.'
edit: this is a sensitive issue in the BW scene, so please dont throw around arbitrary statements as if they were facts. hwasin was never punished. I had to double check just to make sure: wiki
How does streaming make him a douchebag? If you're gonna be angry at anyone it should be the viewers who give him money.
i'm pretty upset that people would give him money for streaming, but to each his own, that's not a criminal act.
Esports didn't exist in korea 15 years ago. The entire scene was pioneered from nothing by people who were truly passionate about the game. It was a little niche, a safe haven for those who legitimately loved the game, and wanted to compete/watch others compete. Savior's act of douchebaggery (ie match fixing) was the first big scandal in the scene, and it did massive damage to the still-developing BW scene. The scandal tarnished the image that the scene projects, especially to the older population in Korea, who had never been keen on if the idea of their kids getting heavily involved in video games. To the predecessors who helped and watched the scene develop, Savior is an ungrateful prick who milked the cow and tipped it over when he had gotten what he wanted. To run away without a single apology, and then come back and try to make money by streaming BW is like taking a dump on that cow. I dunno at least that's how I feel.
Of course we all make mistakes in life, small and big, but how you handle it after you make that mistake is what shows your true character. What Savior is doing can hardly be called 'owning up'. Truly disappointed as an ex-fan of his.
if at the very least, he had crawled out to apologise, if he had admitted his wrong-doings to his coach, teammates, fellow players and fans, the hate on TL wouldn't be to this extent. why do you think players like hwasin and upmagic get less hate than savior? they apologised. they realised their wrong-doings and admitted it. savior didn't. he didn't take up responsibility, and that is what makes me mad at him as a person.
and i still can't believe people actually feel that he deserves a second chance. do you think even if kespa allows it, the fans and staff (especially OGN commentators, they were incredibly upset about it, watch it here
will allow it? i would never ever want to see his face appear back on a field of profession that he personally tarnished. the innocence and image that the bw scene had, the key factor that attracted so many youngsters and adults alike, was shattered. it is being re-established, yes, and it's going fine, but if this blasphemer was to be back and go like "sup guys, nothing happened", there will be hell. there is a fine line to draw when giving second chances. it's not about money, but it's about trust and image and other intangible factors.
as a player though, that is totally another story.
Didn't he actually apologized in a letter to his former fans? I hardly remember reading a letter from him to his fans....i might be wrong though.
On November 10 2011 19:12 konadora wrote: as someone who's followed bw esports scene in korea from quite early on, and being the most passionate savior fan ever, i say this:
savior is a scumbag as a human, because why? he's never apologised. he played the main role, he was the reason why the match-fixing started. what rotinegg says sums up exactly how i feel about savior's actions
On November 10 2011 10:28 rotinegg wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:11 mapthesoul wrote:
On November 10 2011 07:39 rotinegg wrote:
On November 10 2011 07:31 HFL wrote: Compared to the other match fixers, Savior didn't really have a big part in it. Yes he was a broker, which in Korea some people think it's even worse than actual match fixing. The punishments that were given to Savior were not nearly as severe as the others like Hwasin's and Justin's. The whole scandal entirely brought down BW, not just Savior, he didn't play as big of a part as some people may think. Although the actions he did were still bad and probably unforgivable for most people, I think he should be given a chance to relieve his image.
justin played just as big of a role; the only two progamers that were punished were infact savior and justin. savior never apologized, unlike the others who did, and instead went into hiding. then he started streaming BW to make money, and that's what makes him a scumbag, while the others we can say 'it was a lapse of judgement.'
edit: this is a sensitive issue in the BW scene, so please dont throw around arbitrary statements as if they were facts. hwasin was never punished. I had to double check just to make sure: wiki
How does streaming make him a douchebag? If you're gonna be angry at anyone it should be the viewers who give him money.
i'm pretty upset that people would give him money for streaming, but to each his own, that's not a criminal act.
Esports didn't exist in korea 15 years ago. The entire scene was pioneered from nothing by people who were truly passionate about the game. It was a little niche, a safe haven for those who legitimately loved the game, and wanted to compete/watch others compete. Savior's act of douchebaggery (ie match fixing) was the first big scandal in the scene, and it did massive damage to the still-developing BW scene. The scandal tarnished the image that the scene projects, especially to the older population in Korea, who had never been keen on if the idea of their kids getting heavily involved in video games. To the predecessors who helped and watched the scene develop, Savior is an ungrateful prick who milked the cow and tipped it over when he had gotten what he wanted. To run away without a single apology, and then come back and try to make money by streaming BW is like taking a dump on that cow. I dunno at least that's how I feel.
Of course we all make mistakes in life, small and big, but how you handle it after you make that mistake is what shows your true character. What Savior is doing can hardly be called 'owning up'. Truly disappointed as an ex-fan of his.
if at the very least, he had crawled out to apologise, if he had admitted his wrong-doings to his coach, teammates, fellow players and fans, the hate on TL wouldn't be to this extent. why do you think players like hwasin and upmagic get less hate than savior? they apologised. they realised their wrong-doings and admitted it. savior didn't. he didn't take up responsibility, and that is what makes me mad at him as a person.
and i still can't believe people actually feel that he deserves a second chance. do you think even if kespa allows it, the fans and staff (especially OGN commentators, they were incredibly upset about it, watch it here
will allow it? i would never ever want to see his face appear back on a field of profession that he personally tarnished. the innocence and image that the bw scene had, the key factor that attracted so many youngsters and adults alike, was shattered. it is being re-established, yes, and it's going fine, but if this blasphemer was to be back and go like "sup guys, nothing happened", there will be hell. there is a fine line to draw when giving second chances. it's not about money, but it's about trust and image and other intangible factors.
as a player though, that is totally another story.
Didn't he actually apologized in a letter to his former fans? I hardly remember reading a letter from him to his fans....i might be wrong though.
On November 10 2011 20:36 CoolSea wrote: Is there even any indication he wants to get involved in esports again, or are some people just hoping and or speculating?
On November 09 2011 22:29 Rojam wrote: To be fair, there are pro sc2 players, who were cheating in bw and got caught. I won't drop any names, but they've gotten a second chance as well.
what? name me some, i'm interested
I'm pretty sure he means people who map-hacked or abused something. You should know these foreign players who did so.
nah sorry.. i don't read foreign news :<
but if they are caught, why are they allowed to play again?
Hard to say. All the players i can think of who did something like this are (or were) in a pretty respectable/big team(still in SC2). So i guess they have been forgiven. But IMO what they did isn't nowhere near as bad as what Savior and co did.
Two that I know of didn't do it in tournament environment afaik, and one that did got suspended from all TL events for I believe a year?
Well tournament or not they cheated. They got "minor" penalties yes, but nothing big.
On November 10 2011 06:43 CoolSea wrote: People all seem so quick to beat down on savior because they see what he has down as terrible, immoral, disgraceful, etc. The truth is that he is no different from any of us. A lot of people seem to think that they are going to be the exact same person regardless of whatever situation they are placed in, and everybody is judging savior based on their current state of mind, whatever that may be. The truth is that nobody really knows what it was like to be in his position, nobody really knows what it feels like to have lost so much glory and admiration in such a little amount of time, knowing that at a young age you are already past your prime. I am not saying that what he did was right, but I am kind of tired of the generalizations that savior was a bad person and a good player. It's not that simple. Savior is not inherently bad, he is no different than any of us. A lot of people would have done that exact same thing that Savior would have done if they were in his position.
I fully agree with this. You cannot simply judge someone if you never put yourself in that person's shoes. You can label his action as bad and unforgivable, but you can't simply label him as an immoral cold-hearted bastard just because of this. I did a lot of horribly bad things in the past, and if the people around me treated me the same as the korean scene is treating savior, I daresay that i will not have any friends for the rest of my life. Do I regret what I did? Hell yes. But thinking back to why I did the things that I did, and putting myself in my own shoes in those past incidents, I would say 90% that I would do those things again. The point I'm trying to make is that you can't simply label someone as bad just because of one incident.
It's easy for us to judge Savior and say things like he should be put in jail and whatever. But when i put myself in his shoes i find his actions much more forgiving. He's into his 20s and sacrificed all his education and young adulthood into progaming, if I can make some money on the side, whether its match fixing or not, i would have done what he did.
I agree with this. The fact that he made a big life mistake...I understand what it's like to have done bad things in the past and it's why I love savior. We all make mistakes, big and small.
I hate it when people bring out the "it's ok to make mistakes" card. That doesn't mean anything here. Theres a very clear line between making an honest mistake and a criminal act.
I still don't understand how some people still support him. How many times do I and others have to repeat that he destroyed a very significant amount of korean BW? Does this fact not register in your brains? Everyone here is sad about the fact that MBCGame is gone and that there are only 8 teams left, which is something that savior had a direct hand in doing. Does this not register in your head?
Don't compare esports to football or baseball. Those are very established sports with lots of support and popularity. BW in Korea and other esports are still growing and they are very sensitive to outside influence.
On November 10 2011 06:43 CoolSea wrote: People all seem so quick to beat down on savior because they see what he has down as terrible, immoral, disgraceful, etc. The truth is that he is no different from any of us. A lot of people seem to think that they are going to be the exact same person regardless of whatever situation they are placed in, and everybody is judging savior based on their current state of mind, whatever that may be. The truth is that nobody really knows what it was like to be in his position, nobody really knows what it feels like to have lost so much glory and admiration in such a little amount of time, knowing that at a young age you are already past your prime. I am not saying that what he did was right, but I am kind of tired of the generalizations that savior was a bad person and a good player. It's not that simple. Savior is not inherently bad, he is no different than any of us. A lot of people would have done that exact same thing that Savior would have done if they were in his position.
I fully agree with this. You cannot simply judge someone if you never put yourself in that person's shoes. You can label his action as bad and unforgivable, but you can't simply label him as an immoral cold-hearted bastard just because of this. I did a lot of horribly bad things in the past, and if the people around me treated me the same as the korean scene is treating savior, I daresay that i will not have any friends for the rest of my life. Do I regret what I did? Hell yes. But thinking back to why I did the things that I did, and putting myself in my own shoes in those past incidents, I would say 90% that I would do those things again. The point I'm trying to make is that you can't simply label someone as bad just because of one incident.
It's easy for us to judge Savior and say things like he should be put in jail and whatever. But when i put myself in his shoes i find his actions much more forgiving. He's into his 20s and sacrificed all his education and young adulthood into progaming, if I can make some money on the side, whether its match fixing or not, i would have done what he did.
I agree with this. The fact that he made a big life mistake...I understand what it's like to have done bad things in the past and it's why I love savior. We all make mistakes, big and small.
I hate it when people bring out the "it's ok to make mistakes" card. That doesn't mean anything here. Theres a very clear line between making an honest mistake and a criminal act.
I still don't understand how some people still support him. How many times do I and others have to repeat that he destroyed a very significant amount of korean BW? Does this fact not register in your brains? Everyone here is sad about the fact that MBCGame is gone and that there are only 8 teams left, which is something that savior had a direct hand in doing. Does this not register in your head?
Don't compare esports to football or baseball. Those are very established sports with lots of support and popularity. BW in Korea and other esports are still growing and they are very sensitive to outside influence.
"A clear line between making an honest mistake and a criminal act" is different than what you're suggesting in the rest of your post, which is that the consequences of his actions were so great in magnitude that his mistake is unforgivable. Your argument doesn't support your thesis. Given that Savior really did play a direct role in MSL disappearing though, I do agree that he's irredeemable in the eyes of the public.
On November 10 2011 06:43 CoolSea wrote: People all seem so quick to beat down on savior because they see what he has down as terrible, immoral, disgraceful, etc. The truth is that he is no different from any of us. A lot of people seem to think that they are going to be the exact same person regardless of whatever situation they are placed in, and everybody is judging savior based on their current state of mind, whatever that may be. The truth is that nobody really knows what it was like to be in his position, nobody really knows what it feels like to have lost so much glory and admiration in such a little amount of time, knowing that at a young age you are already past your prime. I am not saying that what he did was right, but I am kind of tired of the generalizations that savior was a bad person and a good player. It's not that simple. Savior is not inherently bad, he is no different than any of us. A lot of people would have done that exact same thing that Savior would have done if they were in his position.
I fully agree with this. You cannot simply judge someone if you never put yourself in that person's shoes. You can label his action as bad and unforgivable, but you can't simply label him as an immoral cold-hearted bastard just because of this. I did a lot of horribly bad things in the past, and if the people around me treated me the same as the korean scene is treating savior, I daresay that i will not have any friends for the rest of my life. Do I regret what I did? Hell yes. But thinking back to why I did the things that I did, and putting myself in my own shoes in those past incidents, I would say 90% that I would do those things again. The point I'm trying to make is that you can't simply label someone as bad just because of one incident.
It's easy for us to judge Savior and say things like he should be put in jail and whatever. But when i put myself in his shoes i find his actions much more forgiving. He's into his 20s and sacrificed all his education and young adulthood into progaming, if I can make some money on the side, whether its match fixing or not, i would have done what he did.
I agree with this. The fact that he made a big life mistake...I understand what it's like to have done bad things in the past and it's why I love savior. We all make mistakes, big and small.
I hate it when people bring out the "it's ok to make mistakes" card. That doesn't mean anything here.
I still don't understand how some people still support him. How many times do I and others have to repeat that he destroyed a very significant amount of korean BW?
Some people can forgive, some people cant.
Some people think its a big crime. Some people dont.
Doesnt matter how many time you have to repeat yourself, you wont change other peoples way of thinking much like they wont change yours.
Savior's life kinda sucks at this point it would seem. He is still capable of great good, though, and I would love to see him come back and do that great good. Too bad it will never happen and he will probably continue to live in his horrible life, remembered only as a blight on Esports as he slowly loses the ability to walk due to his osteochondritis dissecans. At least, once upon a time, he had a chance.
EPT
